|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,151
Hall of Famer
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,151 |
this may have been said already...
but...im kinda leaning towards whats been just said...crazy is crazy. There isnt a way to stop what crazy does. If crazy is going to do something, generally, you can predict it, you cant plan for it, and you cant fight it...
video games, movies (why all the venom at video games and i havent heard a sniffle at movies/tv), etc...they dont make crazy people do crazy things...
There are millions upon millions of people in the world who play those games (call of duty, zombie games (left 4 dead) etc...) and dont do terrible things. There are millions upon millions of gun owners that dont go shooting people...
the columbine thing happened with assault rifles during a ban on assault rifles...if you gun control like crazy...it will only prevent the people who ARENT going to do anything from having one. People that want to do bad things will find a way...its how it goes.
While tragedies are beyond horrible...if you overreact to what happened, it will limit the majority, while the crazy and the minority (in this case, people who aim to do bad) will continue to be unfazed...if that kid didnt get his mom's guns, he wouldve got different ones...you can mark that down.
tragedies are beyond horrible, but mass law making, doesnt affect these people that are going to do horrible things...theyll do them regardless
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,960
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,960 |
Well let's see. I'm a guy that thinks Video games could indeed have a negative effect on kids. really believe it let's them live in an alternative reality, so much so that they could have trouble seeing the difference from true reality.
But this one, it doesn't sound like it. This time, it sounds as if this kid had problems. The mental kind. Mild Autism and other issues. So to me, this one was almost unavoidable. damn that sounds awful to say.
I did watch The Voice last night and the opening with the contestants and coaches singing and holding up signs with all the names on them of those killed.. man,, let me tell you,, I teared up. Ripped my heart out. Very painful to watch.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
King, I can't disagree with a single thing you said... that doesn't change the fact that the United States has a cultural problem that expresses itself through violence, frequently, gun violence... The murder rate in the United States is up there with a lot of 3rd world countries and other violent dictatorships at about 4.2 people per 100,000... for reference, that makes us about equal to Turkmenistan and worse than Niger, Palestine, India, and Iran... the next closest western country is Finland at 2.2... that's almost half of our murder rate. We also lead the world in these mass school shootings of innocent people and children by a wide margin... so if people all over the world are playing these video games and "crazy people" is just something that can't be controlled, then why is murder and violence so rampant HERE?
I'm kind of tired of hearing what's NOT to blame... you can't blame violent video games, you can't blame violent images in movies, you can't blame glorified violence in music, you can't blame the systemic removal of faith from the public discourse, you can't blame the presence of hand guns and automatic weapons, you can't blame anything... because people who are inclined to kill people are just going to find a way....... so in one of the wealthiest, most prosperous nations on earth, with all of our progressive enlightenment, and all of our social engineering to teach our children to hold hands and love each other, where our poor have more than the middle class in a lot of countries, we kill each other at a rate equal to that of some 3rd world dictatorships.
So everybody can continue to defend their guns, their video games, their music, their stance on religion in public, their stance on drugs, and all of their other vices.. the fact remains that our murder rate is 14 times that of Japan, 7 times that of Switzerland, Norway, Austria, 4 1/2 times that of Germany, Spain and New Zealand, 4 times that of France, Sweden, and Australia, 3 times that of the United Kingdom and Greece, 2 times that of Isreal, Tajikistan, and Iraq...
We are doing something WRONG. And if you look at those countries, you will see a wide array of stances on gun control from countries that encourage everybody to have one to countries that barely allow for hunting rifles, countries that have pretty strict control on violent images and countries that have none, countries that have a very deep faith based culture and some that don't.... So there is no magic solution that is going to fix it, but doing nothing other than trying to hire more cops and build more prisons isn't serving us well...
Just like with the budget, where the concensus has been that both parties need to put away their sacred cows and put everything on the table (revenues and expenses) and come up with a comprehensive plan to fix the problem.. I think we are at that point with murder and violence as well.... because what we've been doing.. it ain't working.
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015 |
Quote:
Well let's see. I'm a guy that thinks Video games could indeed have a negative effect on kids. really believe it let's them live in an alternative reality, so much so that they could have trouble seeing the difference from true reality.
I can see that thinking... I mean look at American Idol, just how many people watch it over and over and then think they can actually sing!! 
Video games are like anything else. If the child doesn't have the values behind the scenes, then it doesn't matter. No more than I thought I could fly like Superman, swim like Aquaman, or get an Acme safe dropped on me and still live.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,704
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,704 |
j/c...
Someone on my Facebook was posting their anti-gun agenda (very annoying)... Saying how the UK had tightened their gun laws and that their murder rate was so much lower than ours.
So, I decided to look into something else that could be the reason for that.
Every year, there's 250,000 people committed to mental health facilities in the UK.
Compared to 7.6 million people annually in the US.
What is the reason for this...?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,027
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,027 |
There also isn't 300 million guns across the UK.
How do you tell someone they can't arm themselves when there are already so many guns, legal and illegal out there?
I do think rifles like the one used Friday should be illegal. I don't think citizens should be allowed to own one of those.
I had read that the mom had just recently taken shooting up as a hobby, and that her rifle was legal, yet I also read that assault rifles like that are illegal in CT unless bought before the early 90's. That doesn't make sense.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,507
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,507 |
UK population: 63 million
US population: 300 million.
There's part of it.
They also have a completely different demographic than we do.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,704
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,704 |
Still ...
.004% of the population of the UK.
.025% of the population here.
That's a pretty large difference.
It's easy to talk about guns, but I think it's time to talk about what leads to such a large problem with mental health issues in the US.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
Chris Johnson's tribute. I have seen that he is donating the standard fine (not allowed to write on your shoes) to Newtown and may auction the shoes to up the ante of $$$ raised for them: http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdo...15403--nfl.html
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,643
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,643 |
Quote:
I do think rifles like the one used Friday should be illegal. I don't think citizens should be allowed to own one of those.
So if it was a bolt action rifle or a pump shotgun nobody would have been killed?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,027
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,027 |
Quote:
Quote:
I do think rifles like the one used Friday should be illegal. I don't think citizens should be allowed to own one of those.
So if it was a bolt action rifle or a pump shotgun nobody would have been killed?
Didn't say that. I just simply think it's a bit ridiculous that a gun like that is legal.
I'm not of the sort that says strengthening gun laws is really going to do much. There is already a gun problem in this country. Stopping sales of weapons, or slowing them down won't stop the 300 million guns already in this country.
I also don't blame this kid's illness on this. I think there is more to this story.
I wish had the answers to this problem, but I don't and won't claim that I do.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,643
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,643 |
What make a semi auto rifle more dangerous than a bolt action then? Why do you think one is ok and the other not?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,027
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,027 |
Quote:
What make a semi auto rifle more dangerous than a bolt action then? Why do you think one is ok and the other not?
I don't know enough about guns to answer that. I just know what I've read about the gun used, that it should not be legal.
I don't own guns, my family doesn't own guns, but I am 100% behind the right to be able to arm yourself. I just think we need to be sensible about it. Maybe that gun stays legal but should be more difficult to buy?
I know guns are pretty much illegal in other parts of the world, so do people not hunt? How does that work there.
My girflriend wants a gun, I'm meh about it. She's a little more used to it because she works with the police. We're supposed to go shooting sometime soon, and I may come around on it.
Like I said, I will never claim I have all the answers to this issue.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Quote:
What make a semi auto rifle more dangerous than a bolt action then? Why do you think one is ok and the other not?
I'm pretty certain that this is a set up question but I'll go ahead and answer... as I understand it, some of the best in the world can get off 10 shots in a minute with a bolt action rifle and maintain some level of accuracy... some of the best in the world can get off 2 or 3 shots per second with a semi-automatic.
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,643
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,643 |
No doubt a semi is faster, but you can kill just as easily with a bolt action. Banning a semi auto just because its a semi auto doesnt make sense. Magazine capacity makes more sense, but you can buy 10 magazines and with a little practice swap pretty fast.
The problem is, if someone really wants to do something like this they can find a way.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
Quote:
No doubt a semi is faster, but you can kill just as easily with a bolt action. Banning a semi auto just because its a semi auto doesnt make sense. Magazine capacity makes more sense, but you can buy 10 magazines and with a little practice swap pretty fast.
The problem is, if someone really wants to do something like this they can find a way.
that doesn't make any sense. you cannot kill "just as easily"
with a bolt action, a few people (or mob) can overcome the shooter especially if he isn't quite as good as "the best in the world" and only getting off 4-5 shots per minute (that's 15sec between shots).
with a semi-auto, a mob of people attacking will just be mercilessly gunned down.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,643
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,643 |
Where do you get 4-5 shots a minute? That is ridiculously slow. 3 shots per minute was expected during the civil war with muskets.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
Quote:
Where do you get 4-5 shots a minute? That is ridiculously slow. 3 shots per minute was expected during the civil war with muskets.
i haven't ever used a semi-auto, but i have used a bolt-action shotgun before. i don't see how a novice shooter would get off more than that unless he is just spraying (which, if he is being overtaken, then he might do).
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,656
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,656 |
Quote:
So everybody can continue to defend their guns, their video games, their music, their stance on religion in public, their stance on drugs, and all of their other vices.. the fact remains that our murder rate is 14 times that of Japan, 7 times that of Switzerland, Norway, Austria, 4 1/2 times that of Germany, Spain and New Zealand, 4 times that of France, Sweden, and Australia, 3 times that of the United Kingdom and Greece, 2 times that of Isreal, Tajikistan, and Iraq...
I can't speak to all of those countries, but the Britain is often used as an example of how they have stronger gun control laws and lower murder rates. It should be noted that Britain has had a lower murder rate than the US for over 2 centuries and for most of that time, the Brits had no more stringent gun control laws than the US.
Russia, Brazil, and Mexico have stronger gun control laws than the US but have higher murder rates.
Gun ownership in Switzerland is 3 times higher than Germany, but Germany has a higher murder rate.
The laws don't always correspond with lower gun crimes. Both sides of the issue only use the stats to back their own claims.
Syndicated columnist Thomas Sowell had an article relating much of the above in today's paper.
Marijuana is illegal and people smoke it. Drinking and driving is illegal, and people do it. Robbery is illegal and people do it. Changing the laws isn't going to necessarily change the behavior. We live in a country where many young people have never been forced to suffer the consequences of their actions. All of the "they need to feel good" ideas have done more harm than good, in my opinion. Many of these people just keep pushing and pushing and getting away with more and more.
It still comes down to people and the choices they make. I grew up in a house with guns, and I knew damn well I better never touch those guns without my dad being there to supervise. It would never have occured to me to do otherwise because I knew I'd get my backside fanned.
I have 2 daughters (ages 11 & 8), who know the same thing. I'm thankful that if anyone ever tried to get into my house to harm my wife and kids, that I have the right and ability to defend them/us with my guns.
The tragedy in Conn is unthinkable, but hypothetically, if that principal/teacher who threw herself at the gunman and died would have been able to reach in her desk, draw a weapon and shoot him first, how many lives would have been saved?
Gun control just seems to be one of those arguments like politics and religion. There are too many close minded people on each side. I can't believe I entered into the discussion here for that very reason. No one will change my mind, and I know I won't change anyone else's.
There may be people who have more talent than you, but there's no excuse for anyone to work harder than you do.
-Derek Jeter
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,643
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,643 |
fairly average looking joe https://www.youtube.com/v/92Wrv_vpP4Y [youtube]https://www.youtube.com/v/92Wrv_vpP4Y[/youtube]
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Quote:
Banning a semi auto just because its a semi auto doesnt make sense.
Neither does continuing to wash the blood of children off school walls just so some guys can play weekend warrior at the range or pretend they may some day need to overthrow the government.
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,643
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,643 |
Quote:
Quote:
Banning a semi auto just because its a semi auto doesnt make sense.
Neither does continuing to wash the blood of children off school walls just so some guys can play weekend warrior at the range or pretend they may some day need to overthrow the government.
so knives next? Its happened in other countries with "no guns"
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Banning a semi auto just because its a semi auto doesnt make sense.
Neither does continuing to wash the blood of children off school walls just so some guys can play weekend warrior at the range or pretend they may some day need to overthrow the government.
so knives next? Its happened in other countries with "no guns"
I have a better idea, let's give teachers AKs... better yet, let's give them pipe bombs or maybe even a small nuclear button under their desk.. that should deter shooters since they all care so much for their own safety.
I mean since we can't stop all crime, why should we attempt to stop any? Hell, let's put a gun rack in the elementary school lobby where the kids can check their Glocks when they get to school in the morning and set up wet bars on the bus for the drivers.... since, after all, drinking and driving happens and we can't ban alcohol so why should we try to stop it?
Let's just ignore the fact that the murder rate in the US is multiple times that of most other western countries, lets ignore the fact that our school shootings outpace other countries by a wide margin.... I WANT TO PLAY WITH MY GUNS!!!!!!!!
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,643
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,643 |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Banning a semi auto just because its a semi auto doesnt make sense.
Neither does continuing to wash the blood of children off school walls just so some guys can play weekend warrior at the range or pretend they may some day need to overthrow the government.
so knives next? Its happened in other countries with "no guns"
I have a better idea, let's give teachers AKs... better yet, let's give them pipe bombs or maybe even a small nuclear button under their desk.. that should deter shooters since they all care so much for their own safety.
I mean since we can't stop all crime, why should we attempt to stop any? Hell, let's put a gun rack in the elementary school lobby where the kids can check their Glocks when they get to school in the morning and set up wet bars on the bus for the drivers.... since, after all, drinking and driving happens and we can't ban alcohol so why should we try to stop it?
Let's just ignore the fact that the murder rate in the US is multiple times that of most other western countries, lets ignore the fact that our school shootings outpace other countries by a wide margin.... I WANT TO PLAY WITH MY GUNS!!!!!!!!
Or we can ban anything that would hurt anyone and pretend that it will fix the problem... 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,826
Legend
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,826 |
Quote:
Quote:
Banning a semi auto just because its a semi auto doesnt make sense.
Neither does continuing to wash the blood of children off school walls just so some guys can play weekend warrior at the range or pretend they may some day need to overthrow the government.
So, punish the masses because of the crimes of a few? If semi auto's were banned (completely leaving alone the fact that semi autos would still exist), this still could've happened.
I am an "average joe" shooter. With a bolt action rifle, I can easily fire off 8-10 rounds within 20 seconds, and be able to hit a 5 gallon gas can size target at 60 yards with every shot. That doesn't make me "cool", or a good shot, by the way.
I have read that each of the victims were shot at close range, multiple times........now, the way the news is, I don't know if that's accurate or not........semi auto, or single shot rifle.....wouldn't have mattered much.
I have also heard that the murderer killed himself when police arrived......with hundreds of rounds left on him. Again, with the news the way it is - I cannot say if that's true or not. Why would he do that? So he didn't get captured.
You can ban anything and everything - criminals are criminals. The idiots will still be idiots.
I can see banning 30 round mags.....no hunter needs to shoot at a deer or whatever, 30 times.
By the way, I'm no "weekend warrior at the range", nor do I think I could take on the gov't.
Millions upon millions of people in this country own semi auto weapons........I would guess there are 100 million or so semi auto weapons in legal possession in this country, if not more........and all we hear about is "ban them" because of a few school shootings? (and I have a 12 year old daughter - I in NO way mean to belittle the fact that 26 people were killed by 1 idiot criminal on Friday, okay?) What about the 100 million or so weapons that aren't used criminally? We don't hear about them, do we?
Ban semi auto weapons and the problem is solved? Oh. Well, why don't they do that with cocaine, or heroin, or meth? Oh, they did make those illegal, didn't they? How's that working?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Right, because that's the alternative... either keep automatic weapons in the homes or ban everything including paper clips... This is the kind of totally irrational thinking and lack of objective debating skills that keep this country spinning it's wheels and getting nothing accomplished. Well if they aren't allowed to have guided missiles, they can always use guns, and if they aren't allowed to have guns they can always use knives, and if they aren't allowed to have knives they could use a claw hammer, and if we ban claw hammers, they could use knitting scissors... therefore the only logical thing to do is allow individuals to buy guided missiles since we don't want to making knitting illegal... 
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,643
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,643 |
LOL, you started all the over the top nuclear weapon talk...I thought we were comparing extremes.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Quote:
LOL, you started all the over the top nuclear weapon talk...I thought we were comparing extremes.
We are... I think automatic weapons are extreme. Your point seems to be that they are only marginally worse than bolt action which is only marginally worse than knives and on down the line...
So my point is then why not go the other way from automatic weapons? Why not grenades? Why not RPGs? Should civilians be allowed to own RPGs and everything it takes to use them? If not, why not?
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,826
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,826 |
Quote:
Quote:
LOL, you started all the over the top nuclear weapon talk...I thought we were comparing extremes.
We are... I think automatic weapons are extreme. Your point seems to be that they are only marginally worse than bolt action which is only marginally worse than knives and on down the line...
So my point is then why not go the other way from automatic weapons? Why not grenades? Why not RPGs? Should civilians be allowed to own RPGs and everything it takes to use them? If not, why not?
Who had an automatic rifle?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,431
Hall of Famer
|
|
OP
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,431 |
You aren't a "gun guy" so you don't get , have never gotten it and never will and that is o.k. BTW you really do need to stop calling them automatic weapons ...they aren't. It is useful if you are going to debate a gun advocate that you start out with the correct nomenclature because it demonstrates product knowledge otherwise they dismiss you right off the bat . There is a part of me that leans towards agreeing with the gun control camp but I know how the give and inch take a mile system works .
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,643
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,643 |
Quote:
Quote:
LOL, you started all the over the top nuclear weapon talk...I thought we were comparing extremes.
We are... I think automatic weapons are extreme. Your point seems to be that they are only marginally worse than bolt action which is only marginally worse than knives and on down the line...
So my point is then why not go the other way from automatic weapons? Why not grenades? Why not RPGs? Should civilians be allowed to own RPGs and everything it takes to use them? If not, why not?
I do not think the average Joe needs an automatic weapon. I dont believe I said that.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,831
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,831 |
link Turning semi-auto weapons into fully automatic weapons is not hard - as the link shows above, there are literally hundreds of YouTube videos showing you how to do it. According to Wikipedia, link , the gun used, when converted into an automatic weapon can shoot 900 rounds per minute. No one needs that for self-defense. QUOTE DELETED DUE TO PEOPLE FOCUSING ON THE NUMBERS, NOT THE MESSAGE. I POSTED THE CORRECT NUMBERS WITH UP-TO-DATE SOURCES TO SHOW THE PREVALENCE OF GUN VIOLENCE IN THE USA vs. THE REST OF THE WORLD. I think it was Jules who said that the mental health aspect of people like this shooter will go ignored, and she was absolutely right. I'm of the mind that in order to fix the gun violence problem in the US, both a mental health overhaul and a much stricter limit on guns should be created. There was an article the other day about a man stabbing people in China. The difference? all of those people survived while our entire nation has to mourn the loss of 27 lives. A person is shot to death every 45 minutes in the USA. Isn't it about time we actually tried to fix things instead of just saying "You can't stop all violence, so why even bother trying?"
Last edited by TheJoker; 12/18/12 04:03 PM.
![[Linked Image from i190.photobucket.com]](http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z33/booger52/phpGGRdhwAM.jpg)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,643
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,643 |
Almost everyone I know owns guns. None of them have ever shot anyone, been shot, or converted them to fully automatic. I guess I'm just part of a lucky minority then.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,826
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,826 |
And for the people that talk about comparing the US to other countries being unfair because we have more people - I'll quote the West Wing here ""If you combine the populations of Great Britain, France, Germany, Japan, Switzerland, Sweden, Denmark and Australia, you'll get a population roughly the size of the United States. We had 32,000 gun deaths last year. They had 112. Do you think it's because Americans are more homicidal by nature? Or do you think it's because those guys have gun control laws?"
I'd be curious as to a link - a real link, to those numbers. I have a tough time believing that in Great Britain, France, Germany, Japan, Switzerland, Sweden, Denmark and Australia, there were only 112 gun deaths.
I can't help but question if the number of "32,000" in the u.s. includes suicides..........does it?
Regardless, if you have a link - a real link, to those numbers, I'd like to see it. All I could come up with for the u.s. was just over 12,000 if suicides were not included.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,831
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,831 |
I posted the link about the West Wing more for the trailing end of that quote - about homicidal nature vs. gun laws. As for "hard statistics", this is the most recent info I have which suggests that the worst of the gun violence has passed and we are now down to "only" about 15,000 per year. link 1 link 2 Homicide rates per 100,000 If you look at the last link I posted and sort by "homicides" per 100,000 people, the US averages about 3.7 - right between Zimbabwe and Costa Rica. The other "industrial" countries - are well below that (for example, the Netherlands has 0.20, Australia 0.09, and the UK 0.04)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Quote:
Almost everyone I know owns guns. None of them have ever shot anyone, been shot, or converted them to fully automatic. I guess I'm just part of a lucky minority then.
No, you are part of the overwhelming majority... the problem is that the radical minority are doing enough damage to make it very hard for you to defend your case.
For example, a lot of people drive home over the legal drinking limit on any given Friday night.. the overwhelming majority make it home just fine and hurt nobody. But enough drunk driving accidents and fatalities by the few and now we have very strict laws against it and it has become somewhat of a social taboo... even though a lot of people still do it, most are a lot more careful than they used to be... now we have the blood alcohol content limit, some feel is too high and some feel is too low...
That's all we are doing here, guns range from small 6 shooters all the way up to RPGs and beyond with various other weapons available too... there is going to be a line drawn, just like the blood alcohol limit, the question is where to draw it. Is .09 that much worse than .08? Is an automatic weapon much worse than a semi-automatic? A line will be drawn somewhere.
That's why I started out with my advice to gun enthusiasts.. be part of the crowd that helps define where the line is drawn and be reasonable.. because if you dig your heels in and say to hell with the line I want all the guns I want... then the line is likely to be drawn by people you don't like in a place that you don't like... just know that sooner or later, the line will be drawn with more and more restrictions.
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,431
Hall of Famer
|
|
OP
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,431 |
Quote:
Great Britain, France, Germany, Japan, Switzerland, Sweden, Denmark and Australia, you'll get a population roughly the size of the United States. We had 32,000 gun deaths last year. They had 112.
Where did you get those figures ? I ask because the U.K. alone in in 2010 had 138 so your numbers do not add up. That is another reason why debate between gun advocates and gun control people go nowhere . You take numbers you pull out of the air and decide to enter into a supposed logic fueled debate . Are you counting suicides/accidents or just homicide ? Twisting statistics to fit your argument is one thing but flat out fabrications leave zero room for constructive conversation.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,643
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,643 |
I hear what you are saying. There are already lines drawn and much like drinking and driving people are crossing them.
This guy was too young to have handguns yet he had them
He was not mentally fit to have them (at least in Indiana you have to be) yet he did
You arent permitted to carry on school grounds yet he did
Would more laws have stopped him? no
He could have did what he did with a pump action shotgun that any 18 year old can buy at wal-mart.
Guns werent the problem in this case.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Quote:
You aren't a "gun guy" so you don't get , have never gotten it and never will and that is o.k.
I actually enjoy shooting guns. I don't own any, and if I did, they would not be the anything special. My youngest child is now 9 and I have been toying with the idea of getting a gun... I'm not anti-gun.... I'm anti-killing a bunch of innocent kids with guns.....
I have, in this thread, defined this as a cultural problem, easy accessibility of guns is just one part of the problem and I'm not sure whether it's a cause or a symptom... I just know that every time something like this happens, people race out to defend video games, defend violence on TV, defend guns, etc... We have a problem, our murder rate is astronomically higher than the rest of the developed west, our number of school shootings is insane.... I'm advocating that we do something about it... right now. If somebody can come up with a plan to get our murder and mass shooting rates down to the levels that other industrialized western countries see without taking anybodys guns, I'm fine with that.... just figure out how to fix the problem.
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,831
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,831 |
Quote:
Quote:
Great Britain, France, Germany, Japan, Switzerland, Sweden, Denmark and Australia, you'll get a population roughly the size of the United States. We had 32,000 gun deaths last year. They had 112.
Where did you get those figures ? I ask because the U.K. alone in in 2010 had 138 so your numbers do not add up. That is another reason why debate between gun advocates and gun control people go nowhere . You take numbers you pull out of the air and decide to enter into a supposed logic fueled debate . Are you counting suicides/accidents or just homicide ? Twisting statistics to fit your argument is one thing but flat out fabrications leave zero room for constructive conversation.
I already pointed out that the reason I posted that quote - from a TV show that hasn't been on in like 10 years - implying I didn't think they were true and/or current - is for the larger message of gun violence as a mindset and that I went and looked up the statistics - which I posted in my follow-up answer to Arch.
I went ahead and deleted the quote since I wasn't trying to use it for the numbers (they seem a bit hyperbolic and people are taking them as me claiming they're accurate) but people are gravitating to that. The intention was to show that there is a disparity between gun violence in the USA and in the rest of the "western" world. My follow up post hopefully explained that a bit better.
|
|
|
DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Another School Shooting !!!
|
|
