Drunk-driving laws were brought up, and I want to address this. It was NOT the change in the blood-alcohol level that has made the difference. The change in Enforcement was a direct cause, but what really reduced the rate of this crime is one, simple, fact - EVERYONE who got behind the wheel, KNEW, absolutely and positively, that if they were arrested for DUI something Very Bad was going to happen to them, Very Quickly. No exceptions, No excuses, immediate consequences.
Anybody remember the Bobby Noonan Day-Care shooting? This is local news here. FIVE YEARS LATER, the man was just recently sentenced to Life.
Think back about all the school, mall, university, or movie theater shootings over the last several years. Of the shooters that lived, can ANYBODY tell me what BAD THINGS have happened to those criminals?
Separately, in favor of gun ownership - In ANY of the above crimes, or any crime you have ever experienced or even heard of, what percentage of those were prevented by having a police officer already on the scene? The point here is that those who would have the only ability to protect average citizens are usually not around when you need them.
Handgun death figures frequently include fleeing felons shot by a police officer, or by an individual legally defending self, family, or property.
The average British soldier in WW2 was expected to be able to fire 20 aimed rounds in one minute with a bolt-action rifle. This was a basic training exercise called the "mad minute". 30 rounds was not at all uncommon. I must add that three rounds with a Civil War musket would have been above-average.
There is no such thing as a recent "assault rifle ban". Assault rifles are capable of fully automatic fire, all such weapons have been illegal since 1932 or 1933.
As for the "mob" jumping the shooter - IMO this impulse has been intentionally dampened in the American public - most people will meekly wait for Someone Else to come and help them, or die. To actually DO SOMETHING to save their own behind they no longer see as their responsibility.
Sadly the media has turned this into a gun issue instead of a mental health issue. I heard this morning that the mom was trying to have him committed to a mental health facility, and he found out and snapped.
Quote: Why would you want to ban any of my hunting or home defense or self protection guns? How would that benefit you, or society?
Arch, I don't want to ban you from owning anything but there is a growing sentiment among a lot of people that some greater restrictions need to be made... and many typical gun rights advocates are starting to say it too... So while I understand every one of your points, laws are going to change... How much I have no idea
Quote: but making laws for the heck of it don't accomplish much. Especially when criminals have the tendency to not follow the law.
Then what is the purpose of strengthening immigration laws? What is the purpose behind DUI and speed limit laws? What is the purpose behind any law if criminals aren't going to adhere to it anyway?
Quote: Sadly the media has turned this into a gun issue instead of a mental health issue. I heard this morning that the mom was trying to have him committed to a mental health facility, and he found out and snapped.
Good point, the guy had mental health issues... so why even talk about guns at all? I mean other than this one incident, we don't really have any other problems with guns.
Quote: Sadly the media has turned this into a gun issue instead of a mental health issue. I heard this morning that the mom was trying to have him committed to a mental health facility, and he found out and snapped.
Good point, the guy had mental health issues... so why even talk about guns at all? I mean other than this one incident, we don't really have any other problems with guns.
yes, I thought the two issues sort of intertwined in this incident.
I expect the result of it will be that more funding goes towards mental health advocacy, care and awareness. And that something will be done about restrictions on guns. How much on either one is the only real question.
Quote: Sadly the media has turned this into a gun issue instead of a mental health issue. I heard this morning that the mom was trying to have him committed to a mental health facility, and he found out and snapped.
Good point, the guy had mental health issues... so why even talk about guns at all? I mean other than this one incident, we don't really have any other problems with guns.
Most of these incidents are followed up with something along the line of "all the signs were there", maybe we need to look at the user not the tool. Blame guns all you want, it wont stop the problems we have.
Quote: Sadly the media has turned this into a gun issue instead of a mental health issue. I heard this morning that the mom was trying to have him committed to a mental health facility, and he found out and snapped.
Good point, the guy had mental health issues... so why even talk about guns at all? I mean other than this one incident, we don't really have any other problems with guns.
My concern, and it's valid because we do this ALL the time, is that we look at one side of this, ban some things that one political party has been salivating over for years and then all clap and go on our merry way....and the real issues are never addressed. The gun issue is front and center on this board and in the media. Maybe two people commented on the article that Clem posted and the majority stick with the weapon used. That, my friends, IS mind boggling.
People are giving a little side chat to the mental illness aspect of this but guns are front and center. Why? Because it's the easy way out and the smug politicians can show the American public they have done something. It fits the need of the public for something to pay the price for our hearts being ripped out over this kind of incident. The banning of these weapons is NOT going to stop this. These people will find a way...and for you people laughing at those of us saying this, laugh it up, but this is the truth. There is so much information out there about how to create things that will kill many, many people. More people than a few guns. Be careful what you wish for.
On a side note, I think it can be pretty confidently stated that gun free zones are an abject failure at this point.
Joe Biden is on the case all is well . Barry and his handlers know that the public wants some show of effort put in on the gun problem we have and since he knows what a crap storm this is going to be he sidesteps direct involvement yet puts "the best man for the job" on the case to be the lightning rod . So far all is going as would be expected and with the disarray within the Republican party there stands a good chance of at least the Clinton era weapons ban to be re instituted.
Quote: WASHINGTON (AP) — President Barack Obama is launching an administration-wide effort to curb gun violence, underscoring the growing political consensus over tightening gun restrictions following the horrific massacre at a Connecticut elementary school. Obama is tasking Vice President Joe Biden, a longtime gun control advocate, with spearheading the effort. In remarks from the White House on Wednesday, Obama will outline a process for pursuing policy changes following the school shooting, though he is not expected to call for specific measures. The president has vowed to use "whatever power this office holds" to safeguard the nation's children after Friday's shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary in Newtown, Conn. Twenty children and six adults were killed at the school by a gunman carrying an arsenal of ammunition and a high-powered, military-style rifle. The White House sees some urgency in formulating a policy response to the shooting, even as Obama and his top aides are consumed with averting the "fiscal cliff" before tax hikes and spending cuts take effect in January. The incident has prompted several congressional gun rights supporters to consider new legislation to control firearms, and there is some fear that their willingness to engage could fade as the shock and sorrow over the Newtown shooting eases. Many pro-gun lawmakers also have called for a greater focus on mental health issues and the impact of violent entertainment. White House aides say stricter gun laws alone are not the answer. "It's a complex problem that requires more than one solution," White House spokesman Jay Carney said Tuesday. "It calls for not only re-examining our gun laws and how well we enforce them, but also for engaging mental health professionals, law enforcement officials, educators, parents and communities to find those solutions." Still, much of the immediate focus after the shooting is on gun control, an issue that has been dormant in Washington for years. Obama expended little political capital on gun issues during his first term, despite several mass shootings, including a movie theater attack in Aurora, Colo., in the midst of this year's presidential campaign. The White House has begun to signal that Obama may be more proactive on gun issues following the murders of the elementary school youngsters, ages 6 and 7. Carney said Obama was "actively supportive" of legislation to reinstate a ban on assault-style weapons that expired in 2004. The president long has supported a ban, but exerted little effort to get it passed during his first term. Obama also would support closing a gun show loophole allowing people to buy arms from private dealers without background checks and would be interested in legislation limiting high-capacity ammunition magazines, Carney said. The policy process Obama was announcing Wednesday was expected to include input from the departments of Justice, Education, and Health and Human Services. The heads of those agencies met with Obama at the White House on Monday.
Quote: My concern, and it's valid because we do this ALL the time, is that we look at one side of this, ban some things that one political party has been salivating over for years and then all clap and go on our merry way....and the real issues are never addressed.
Politicians don't see issues, they only see opportunity.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
Quote: My concern, and it's valid because we do this ALL the time,
You aren't allowed to validate your own concern.. somebody else has to do that.
Quote: ban some things that one political party has been salivating over for years and then all clap and go on our merry way....and the real issues are never addressed.
I agree 100%
Quote: The gun issue is front and center on this board and in the media. Maybe two people commented on the article that Clem posted and the majority stick with the weapon used. That, my friends, IS mind boggling.
I know you addressed this to me but I'm not sure if it's totally intended for me. I have made multiple posts commenting on the need for a very comprehensive look into the violent nature of our culture, gun availability is but a part of the things I want to look at. The fact that those are the only things the gun enthusiasts seem to pull out to talk about is not my fault.
Quote: The banning of these weapons is NOT going to stop this.
And you know this how? Because of all of the children killed in public school bombings in countries with stricter gun legislation? Because of all of the western countries with murder rates higher than ours where knives and baseball bats and home brewed chemical concoctions are used? To say that gun legislation couldn't help stop incidents like this is about as naive as saying that gun legislation will stop all of it.
Quote: On a side note, I think it can be pretty confidently stated that gun free zones are an abject failure at this point.
Of course they are, just like DC and NYC gun laws are an abject failure. Having those kinds of restrictions in the middle of areas that have no such restrictions is stupid. It would be like putting a healthy person in the middle of the room, surrounding him with sick people on all sides and expecting him to stay healthy just because you call it a "germ free zone"....
We need to stop talking about guns. The bigger elephant in the room needs to be addressed. Mental health in this country needs to be addressed in a major way, and yet it continues to be pushed aside in favor of 'let's ban guns to make us feel safer.' The existence of guns does not make me fear for my life. The fact that I see people running around with mental issues does, even though I don't believe most of them even have access to guns. Where I work, I see it almost everyday with a person wandering around with some sort of mental issue and often they do come into the store where I am employed and I'm never sure how they will react. Though, the farthest I've seen one person go was just pushing a bunch of merchandise to the ground in an angry fit and cursing out other people as they walk by.
And many of these people go around unchecked and are mostly homeless. I'm not worried about them getting a gun, I;m worried about them just throwing a fit and finding anything they can to use as a weapon. Maybe it's just the city I work in that has a lot of these people around. It was also the city where a guy with mental issues was beaten to death by cops. (Kelly Thomas) But I've seen too many people running around with mental issues that scare me more than the knowledge that there are people out there that can be carrying guns around. But maybe because I come across more people with mental issues than people with guns. Though, there have been a couple of instances where a gun was flashed, but that was the extent of the gun and used as a threat which is easy to deal with for the most part, just let them be and off on their merry way. Mental issues are a bit together because there is barely a rhyme or reason and they can go off on you for merely saying hello.
"Don't be burdened by regrets or make your failures an obsession or become embittered or possessed by ruined hopes"
Quote: but making laws for the heck of it don't accomplish much. Especially when criminals have the tendency to not follow the law.
Seriously, that's your logic for not wanting any law.....that the criminals won't obey it?
And here I thought a law was enacted to prevent something/help solve a problem and to set a penalty for violation of that law.
To me, no matter what your political persuasion a couple things in the gun control debate are self evident truths..... 1. Handguns have one over-riding purpose - To kill another human being.
2. No one needs an assault weapon. See #1.
And murder is already illegal. What problem do you propose that a gun law will correct?
I can need an "assault" weapon. If I want to go hunting and want to be able to fire semi-auto so I can put more than one round on target quickly if I miss.... yeah, that's useful. Or, is it the styling of the weapon you object to? Would it be better if I used an M1 Garand? If so, are you the fashion police, too.... making sure people dress appropriately? Because that is the difference you are talking about.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
Quote: We need to stop talking about guns. The bigger elephant in the room needs to be addressed. Mental health in this country needs to be addressed in a major way, and yet it continues to be pushed aside in favor of 'let's ban guns to make us feel safer.' The existence of guns does not make me fear for my life. The fact that I see people running around with mental issues does, even though I don't believe most of them even have access to guns. Where I work, I see it almost everyday with a person wandering around with some sort of mental issue and often they do come into the store where I am employed and I'm never sure how they will react. Though, the farthest I've seen one person go was just pushing a bunch of merchandise to the ground in an angry fit and cursing out other people as they walk by.
And many of these people go around unchecked and are mostly homeless. I'm not worried about them getting a gun, I;m worried about them just throwing a fit and finding anything they can to use as a weapon. Maybe it's just the city I work in that has a lot of these people around. It was also the city where a guy with mental issues was beaten to death by cops. (Kelly Thomas) But I've seen too many people running around with mental issues that scare me more than the knowledge that there are people out there that can be carrying guns around. But maybe because I come across more people with mental issues than people with guns. Though, there have been a couple of instances where a gun was flashed, but that was the extent of the gun and used as a threat which is easy to deal with for the most part, just let them be and off on their merry way. Mental issues are a bit together because there is barely a rhyme or reason and they can go off on you for merely saying hello.
Mental health is fine..... HUMANS are just stupid. The MEDIA needs to stop glorifying the whackos that do this. There is no reason that anyone should know their names. They should die a completely worthless and anonymous death.
How do you prevent this from happening again, then??
Simple: YOU CANNOT. If some whack job wants to do this again, they will. You are no more, and no less, safe now than you were when you were a child. Your illusion of presumed safety may be shattered, but that is it. It isn't particularly reassuring, but it is cold, hard fact and truth.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
The problem is, no one can define "assault rifle". Is this one?
Is this one?
They both are semi-auto, they both have detachable magazines, and they both hold the same number of rounds. One looks scarier than the other, and that's about the only difference. So, when someone tells me they only want to ban assault rifles, just what are they referring to? They can create a definition that would include any firearm. I currently own that Ruger (upper pic) and I did own that Browning (lower). Both are fine firearms and excellent hunting weapons.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul. - John Muir
You're exactly correct, no one can define an assault rifle because that class of weapons doesn't exist. Now the media has latched onto a specific look, like this.
Ominous looking weapon and the unknowing would latch on quickly to say this is an assault rifle.
It is a semi-automatic weapon, but it's a 12 guage shotgun.
Quote: but making laws for the heck of it don't accomplish much. Especially when criminals have the tendency to not follow the law.
Seriously, that's your logic for not wanting any law.....that the criminals won't obey it?
And here I thought a law was enacted to prevent something/help solve a problem and to set a penalty for violation of that law.
To me, no matter what your political persuasion a couple things in the gun control debate are self evident truths..... 1. Handguns have one over-riding purpose - To kill another human being.
2. No one needs an assault weapon. See #1.
That's not true Otto. I have shot and killed close to a dozen hogs with a side arm. Hogs run to the thicket, and you can't get in there with a long barrel.
That said, I have no problem with a sensible law. The problem is sensible laws leave the crack for laws that don't, so I sway against.
Look at the guy, he was a nut. Shooting your own mother in the face sort of proves that, no???
It's not the guns my friend, it's the people. We don't have a gun problem, we have a people problem.....time to address that IMO.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
Sorry you feel the need to put 20-30 slugs into that deer you're hunting. I gotta believe that makes the meat kinda mealy.....
And yes, I am the fashion police, too. That shirt you're wearing sucks. Kinda like your analogy.
No one really needs a weapon that fires 20-30 rounds faster than you can fart. Unless you're in Afghanistan or on the SWAT team. I don't think you qualify in either case.
And handguns have one purpose only and that's to kill another human being.
Shape the argument any way you want but neither one of those statements is untrue. Whether you like them or not.
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
Quote: Sorry you feel the need to put 20-30 slugs into that deer you're hunting. I gotta believe that makes the meat kinda mealy.....
No, it means I might not be that good of a shot..... and 2-3 is all that is needed, but getting them off quick is the key. Don't worry, I laughed at your example, so it wasn't a complete waste of typing.
Quote:
And yes, I am the fashion police, too.
I bet you are.
Quote: Kinda like your analogy.
No, the analogy fits quite perfectly, actually. A semi-auto deer rifle and an "assault" rifle are functionally identical... larger, higher-powered weapons are needed for things like moose.
As for killing a human...... yes, that is needed, too. But, that gets into that whole self-defense thing - or, in the case of Sandy Hook.... stopping someone from doing bad things - yes, the killer was stopped by an assistant principal that had a gun in the trunk of his car.
Guns are not good or bad - that is reserved purely for the people operating them. However, that simple FACT gets ignored quickly by those that want to get rid of guns because it is inconvenient. It is incontrovertible, but inconvenient and not at all politically useful. It also forces people to recognize the fact that there is generally NOTHING you can do to prevent this sort of thing.... and that harshes on people's sense of security.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
The term "assault rifle" has a definition, I've seen it numerous places including posted on this web site. Fairly recently. In a thread I'm pretty sure most of the people posting here were active in.
Detachable magazine, intermediate round, selector switch for fully automatic fire. It's the "fully automatic" part I referenced earlier and which many people fail to understand. One trigger pull, many bullets, illegal since 1932 (or 1933).
A bayonnet lug and attachment point for a sling may, or may not, be part of the definition. They were part of the so-called "assault-rifle ban".
I can even tell you who invented the term, hint he was talking about the Sturmgewehr 44. "SturmGewehr" can be translated as "assault rifle".
I listened to Dianne Feinstein complaining about how awful it was that the weapon used had an adjustable trigger. A freaking Adjustable Trigger! Like this made it a much more terrible weapon.
Otto, is it your contention that absolutely no one, ever, could possibly have a legitimate need to shoot and kill another human being? You have found some way to completely eliminate this problem?
It is not too difficult to figure out the definition.
Semi-automatic means that you pull the trigger it fires the bullet, ejects the shell and loads the bullet into the chamber.
A detachable magazine is also part of the definition. You can continue to fire as long as bullets are being fed into the gun. You do not have to stop and reload bullets individually, you eject a magazine, and insert another magazine preloaded with bullets and continue to fire. Change of magazine is accomplished in a few seconds.
There is general consensus that 30 clip magazines are an issue (see Tuscon), and we seem to be settling on 10 as the maximum number of rounds to be contained by a magazine.
Frankly, I would like a "double action" magazine reload strategy to slow the change over process and make someone use both hands for the switch.
Quote: We need to stop talking about guns. The bigger elephant in the room needs to be addressed. Mental health in this country needs to be addressed
The problem i have in all this is the generic term of " mental health". I know a bit about Aspbergers, and this action was not the work of Aspbergers. There was something much worse at work than that. People with Aspbergers tend to be less violent then non Aspbergers people. Now while people with this condition can lash out, what this guy did was not lash out. What he did was a cold, calculated, planned, murder plot.
I have a son who has a Aspbergers diagnosis. I have a fear that now all of a sudden he is going to be pigeon holed by people who dont know a thing about Aspbergers. My son and I shoot guns and bows together, i actually had some idiot on another forum question me as to why i have taught my son to shoot a gun if he has Aspbegers because some dude, who happened to have Aspbergers murdered a bunch of kids. So i guess now all Aspbergers people must be capable of this atrocious crime. When in fact his actions go completely against something an Aspbergers diagnosed person would do.
Notice i say diagnosis, that because i am dubious to it. As a matter of fact, his counselor told me the other day that Aspbergers is going to be taken away pretty soon because it is too vague.
KING
You may be in the drivers seat but God is holding the map. #GMSTRONG
I agree with you completely... I have no doubt this killer had some (probably several) mental health issues... but I'm mad that many in the media are making it sound that he had Aspergers and therefore that's why he went nuts...
I have a cousin with Aspergers... he has his own apartment, has had a steady job for the last 5 years since he graduated trade school, and knows how to shoot guns very well as his grandfather is a professional hunter/fisherman... but I'm not sure he's been in a fight let alone an argument (unless you bash Jimmy Johnson)...
The term "assault rifle" has a definition, I've seen it numerous places including posted on this web site. Fairly recently. In a thread I'm pretty sure most of the people posting here were active in.
Detachable magazine, intermediate round, selector switch for fully automatic fire. It's the "fully automatic" part I referenced earlier and which many people fail to understand. One trigger pull, many bullets, illegal since 1932 (or 1933).
A bayonnet lug and attachment point for a sling may, or may not, be part of the definition. They were part of the so-called "assault-rifle ban".
I can even tell you who invented the term, hint he was talking about the Sturmgewehr 44. "SturmGewehr" can be translated as "assault rifle".
The AWB definition of assault weapon died when the law expired. Both sides of the argument were unhappy with the definition, and it definitely will not hold up in any new legislation. The definition was:
"the AWB defined any firearm with a detachable magazine and at least two of certain other characteristics as an assault weapon.
For rifles, those characteristics included: •Telescoping stock •Pistol grip •Bayonet mount •Grenade launcher •Flash suppressor
For shotguns: •Telescoping stock •Pistol grip •A capacity to hold more than five rounds
For handguns: •Threaded barrels made to attach a barrel extender, handgrip or flash suppressor •A barrel shroud that can be used as a handhold •Weight of at least 50 oz. when unloaded"
Since you mentioned the Sturmgewehr, here's an interesting side story.....a lady recently turned in a Sturmgewehr 44 to one of those gun buy back programs in Connecticut. She had no idea what it was. Luckily, an honest cop informed her and she's set to make a fortune. It was a souvenir that her father brought back for WWII and kept stashed in his closet. Very few of them were made, and they were what Kalishnikov modeled the AK47 after.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul. - John Muir
Why is no one bringing up the mother?? From what I read she was off her rocker as well. She wouldn't let any outsider in her house for social events, she thought the world was going to end due to the economic climate. Relatives didn't see the kid in years. When she took him to get a haircut, she would tell him when to talk, and when to get up. She didn't let the kid have a job, or socialize with anyone. The guy was raised like an animal. The mom was a freaking controlling lunatic. No wonder this guy lost his mind. Who would want his life??
Quote: Why is no one bringing up the mother?? From what I read she was off her rocker as well. She wouldn't let any outsider in her house for social events, she thought the world was going to end due to the economic climate. Relatives didn't see the kid in years. When she took him to get a haircut, she would tell him when to talk, and when to get up. She didn't let the kid have a job, or socialize with anyone. The guy was raised like an animal. The mom was a freaking controlling lunatic. No wonder this guy lost his mind. Who would want his life??
Because he is the victim. Guns are the problem here. Try to keep up.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
Also, I would like, if possible, in their toxology report if they could determine the amount of B12 in his system. He was reportedly a vegan because he didnt want to hurt animals. Vegans have a high risk of being deficient in certain vitamins and minerals, especially B12 because it mainly comes from animal products. If you are even slightly deficient in B12 it will render you psychotic and or have mental illness like depression or bipolar or dementia. It screws your brain up.
I am going to go off on a tangent here and rail a bit on the video game culture.
I have a flash back to walking through a mall and them having the latest game Resident Evil in the store window, basically a loop showing the head being blown to smithereens.
My son who was 4 at the time was fascinated. I was appalled. It was the only time in life that I could remember walking in the store and complaining that the video should not be shown in the front window.
My son is fine, no problems and a college kid that still plays the latest and greatest video game.
But I have seen enough video over the years to realize that if a child was not well grounded, that video game could be a serious problem.
We know that video games are serving as training for soldiers... It does not take much to make the connection.
The level of realism has improved significantly. I wish that they would handle the issue of game over and kills differently, maybe with a stylized structure such that the more graphic the death of others, the more graphic is yours.
Quote: And handguns have one purpose only and that's to kill another human being. .
Or to protect me from nutjobs like this guy.
The only job my gun has is to shoot, and try to kill, someone breaking into my house. It has no other purpose.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
Quote: And handguns have one purpose only and that's to kill another human being. .
Or to protect me from nutjobs like this guy.
+1 if someone wants to give up their RIGHT to have a gun thats fine dont buy one, but dont for 1 second think you have the RIGHT to take my RIGHTS have and bear arms. Our military sells weapons to other counties all the time no one complains about that, why not? There is a reason we are the most armed nation its because the citizans are the militia no matter you are told not the military controlled by some gov.
The military protects us in other lands,sometimes from the very weapons they sold. but we the citizans must protect our own lands and by extention this country itself by whatever means are available on any market including the arms market.
I know that last statement may sound a bit over the top but so is hte crap the gun control people use as well, just scare tactics to help disarm america.
I dont fear for my life when I walk down the street or go to the movies or walk to the mall. If you do, perhaps you are asking the wrong question. Its not someone else dangerous could be armed should we ban them, its why are you not?
Last edited by NickBrownsFan; 12/20/1212:39 AM.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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