|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,456
Dawg Talker
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,456 |
Weeden as others have mentioned seems to be "thinking" to much instead of "playing" free and loose. Im not sure if its because hes to worried about throwing picks or what. I see him as a gunslinger and can accept ints because alot of times they are just like punts. Maybe we should hire Martz as our next HC. He knows how to use a gunslinger. 
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Quote:
It was also Weeden's worst game since the Philly game.
No it wasn't. Both Baltimore games were probably worse than this one, Buffalo was about equal if not worse, San Diego I'll give him a pass but it wasn't pretty,
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 745
All Pro
|
|
OP
All Pro
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 745 |
Right now if you redid the NFL Draft, where would Weeden go based on performance?
I guarantee you he wouldn't be a 1st RD pick cause he isn't playing like a 1st RD pick.
Now Russell Wilson would be a low 1st RD,high 2nd RD.
Weeden has a great chance Sunday to show the regime he has what it takes
to be a franchise QB and he blew it.
He's not a 100% lock to be the starting QB in 2013
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015 |
Quote:
Right now if you redid the NFL Draft, where would Weeden go based on performance?
I guarantee you he wouldn't be a 1st RD pick cause he isn't playing like a 1st RD pick.
Now Russell Wilson would be a low 1st RD,high 2nd RD.
Sheit, if people knew then what they know now, Wilson would have bumped Tannehill out of the top-10. Weeden would have gone in the 2nd round at best, but possibly right where I had him rated in 3 or 4.
Nobody should be dumb enough to spend a mid 1st round pick on a 29-year old developmental rookie.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 |
Quote:
Nobody should be dumb enough to spend a mid 1st round pick on a 29-year old developmental rookie.
This times a gajillion.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,507
Legend
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,507 |
I am looking through some of Weeden's splits, and there are some interesting things in there.
On 1st down he is 106/183 for 1238 yards, 7 TD 4 INT, and 6.76 yards/attempt.
On 2nd down he is 88/155 for 1031 yards, 1 TD 5 INT, and 6.65 yards/attempt.
On 2nd down passing, we have had 2nd and less than 6 yards 30 times. (passing) We have had a staggering 125 2nd and 6+ yards. He has struggled with 2nd and long, throwing 5 INT and no TD on this down/distance. Of the 155 2nd downs we have faced, and passed the ball, we have had 97 that have been 8+ yards. That's incredibly bad. Over 50% of our 2nd downs where we pass have been for 8+ yards. That is really, really bad.
On 3rd down, Weeden has gone 89/152 for 981 yards, 6 TD, 8 INT, and only a 6.45 yards/attempt. Of the 152 3rd downs we have faced, 31 have been 11+ yards, 59 have been 8+ yards, and 76 have been 3-8 yards. So, we have faced 3rd and 8+ times and passed 90 times. 3rd and long is a hard nut to crack, and it should be no surprise that we have struggled on 3rd and long.
On 4th down, we have converted 2 of 5 throwing the ball. All tries have been under 6 yards.
Looking at the running game, we have faced 1st and short (6 yards or less) 7 times where we have run Richardson. He has picked up 1 yard total on those 7 tries.
Overall, Richardson has rushed 138 for 488 yards on1st down. That's a 3.5 yard/carry average. He has run for 5 TD on 1st down overall.
On 2nd down, overall Trent has run 100 times for 362 yards. On 2nd and 1-2, he has 16 times for 24 yards, or 1.5 yards/carry. Overall, however, 2nd down is Trent's best down, as he averages 4 yards/carry on 2nd and more than 1-2 yards. He has scored 5 TD on 2nd down.
3rd down is when we rarely use him. He has run 20 times for 47 yards on 3rd down. (2.35 yards/carry)
3rd and 1-2 he has run 10 times for 15 yards. Unfortunately, 12 of those yards came on a single run, so the other 9 carries on 3rd down and 1-2 yards, he has managed 3 yards total.
These should be automatic.
He has not run on 4th down this season.
Hardesty hasn't had a lot of chances, but one thing that jumps out at me is on 1st and 8-10. Hardesty has carried 25 times on 1st and 10, (because what situation have we faced a 1st and 8 or 9?) for 122 yards. This is a 4.9 average per carry.
Back to Richardson ..... most RB get stronger as the game goes along. Richardson seems to wear down.
On carries 1-10 of the game, he averages 3.7 yards/carry.
On carries 11-20, he averages 3.5 yards/carry.
21+ in a game, he averages 2.4 yards/carry.
It appears that he gets weaker with more carries, not stronger.
When we get back to the passing game for a second, we average 11.5 yards/reception for the year. This is strictly completed passes. This is good for 16th in the NFL.
We have run for a total of 61 1st downs for the season. This is tied for 29th in the NFL. We have passed for 160 1st downs, and this is 16th in the NFL. We have gained 20 1st downs by penalty.
On 3rd down, we have only converted 61 of 196. As shown above, we almost never run on 3rd down. (152 pass attempts vs 24 RB run attempts) I know that Weeden has run a few times, as have Benjamin, Cribbs, and Little, but I'm looking at the "base" type plays.
Overall, we have been far more effective throwing the ball than running the ball, but we have been in far too many bad down/distance situations.
Looking at Cincinnati, they have gained 267 1st downs to out 241. They have run for 93 first downs (to our 61), and they have thrown for 155. (to our 160)
Baltimore has gained 266 first downs on the season. They have run for 80 and passed for 157.
Pittsburgh has gained 275 1st downs, and they are the only team in our division to throw for more 1st downs than us. They have run for 68, and passed for 185.
Our passing game has not flourished ... but there are reasons. Far too often we put the QB in bad down/distance, and the inability to run the ball is a large factor. We cannot get a running game going, so we wind up in far too many 2nd/3rd and long situations. I also think that Weeden has struggled with aspects of the passing game, especially seeming to regress on quick reads/throws, and instead hanging onto the ball far too long too often ..... and not seeing open receivers. 3rd is predictable play calls. All are valid IMHO, and all have hurt us badly.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Quote:
We have had a staggering 125 2nd and 6+ yards.
Based on your own statistics, 77 of those (61%) are the result of an incomplete first down pass.
I'm not familiar with all of the stats you looked up but the vast majority of Weedens big plays have come on first down. I realized that a couple weeks ago when somebody accused us of running up the middle on first down all the time. It's not true.
Quote:
Far too often we put the QB in bad down/distance, and the inability to run the ball is a large factor. We cannot get a running game going, so we wind up in far too many 2nd/3rd and long situations.
I'm aware of that ytown.... I really am. We struggle to run the ball, especially when other teams know we are going to run. Shurmur gets blasted for his playcalling but with a running game that struggles and a QB that isn't very accurate, what is the guy supposed to call?
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,456
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,456 |
Quote:
Quote:
We have had a staggering 125 2nd and 6+ yards.
Based on your own statistics, 77 of those (61%) are the result of an incomplete first down pass.
I'm not familiar with all of the stats you looked up but the vast majority of Weedens big plays have come on first down. I realized that a couple weeks ago when somebody accused us of running up the middle on first down all the time. It's not true.
Quote:
Far too often we put the QB in bad down/distance, and the inability to run the ball is a large factor. We cannot get a running game going, so we wind up in far too many 2nd/3rd and long situations.
I'm aware of that ytown.... I really am. We struggle to run the ball, especially when other teams know we are going to run. Shurmur gets blasted for his playcalling but with a running game that struggles and a QB that isn't very accurate, what is the guy supposed to call?
Double reverses on 2nd and short, deep throws and 3rd and 1, Runs up the gut in goal line situations with 21 people stacked in the box instead of going outside or spreading the d-line with a couple recievers. Shifting the TE to the side we are going to run to. Shifting 2 guys in motion then always passing the the ball with only 2 guys going out? Not getting a play in at all while the QB points to the helmet and has to call TO? 
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761 |
Quote:
Nobody should be dumb enough to spend a mid 1st round pick on a 29-year old developmental rookie.
put me into the category that thinks investing a top 3 pick + mid 4th, high 5th and 7th rounders into a RB with a knee problem who had breakaway "concerns" to begin with, is even dumber....RB are found ANYWHERE in a draft, see Morris, Alfred...drafting Jesus Christ as a RB at 3 isn't good value these days....QBs? not so much
Weeden was a flyer pick at 22 after we missed out on RG3 and didn't like Tannehill so high....that was an extra pick from the ATL trade
Weeden was a value boom or bust pick, I was the first to say so right after it...TRich was bad value anyway you think about it....he had to reach elite level quickly (considering shelf life of RBs and next to no position transition period) to be good value
Anyway, the one that has been disappointing his scouting reports is clearly TRich....I posted all reports of our rooks and TRich just isn't the player he was hyped to be. We all better pray that's all because of his injury and that he'll magically stay healthy, something he hasn't managed to do for over a year now...that's a concern too, ya know?
@Rish
Martz also praised Weeden for his talents and to me it didn't sound as if he was just trying to be nice, it was more like "damn, if he could just be more consistent"...Martz always loved gunslingers and I'm sure he sees one in Weeds, because that's what he is
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 |
Quote:
that was an extra pick from the ATL trade
So it doesn't count? Or it's okay if it is wasted? I don't get the logic behind that.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015 |
Quote:
put me into the category that thinks investing a top 3 pick + mid 4th, high 5th and 7th rounders into a RB with a knee problem
Shuffling blame away from Weeden and onto your dislike of Richardson doesn't change the failures of Weeden.
Nice try though.
Feel free to start a bash-Richardson thread because you can't deflect this much criticism from the guy you backed.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Quote:
Quote:
that was an extra pick from the ATL trade
So it doesn't count? Or it's okay if it is wasted? I don't get the logic behind that.
So that pick could have been Julio Jones, but we turned it into a future pick and then turned it into a high bust factor 29 year old QB, therefore that makes it a good pick? Call me crazy but I'd rather have Julio Jones and Colt McCoy right now
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,507
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,507 |
Quote:
Quote:
We have had a staggering 125 2nd and 6+ yards.
Based on your own statistics, 77 of those (61%) are the result of an incomplete first down pass.
I'm not familiar with all of the stats you looked up but the vast majority of Weedens big plays have come on first down. I realized that a couple weeks ago when somebody accused us of running up the middle on first down all the time. It's not true.
Quote:
Far too often we put the QB in bad down/distance, and the inability to run the ball is a large factor. We cannot get a running game going, so we wind up in far too many 2nd/3rd and long situations.
I'm aware of that ytown.... I really am. We struggle to run the ball, especially when other teams know we are going to run. Shurmur gets blasted for his playcalling but with a running game that struggles and a QB that isn't very accurate, what is the guy supposed to call?
I'm not following you on the first part vof your equation.
Of the 3 players I broke down. we have a total of 346 plays on 1st down. (183 Weeden, 138 Richardson, and 25 Hardesty) I'm not sure how you come up with 61% being an incomplete pass?
Of the 346 plays, Weeden's 77 incomplete passes would be nowhere near 61%. If I figure it right, which right now, with the level of pain I'm in it might not be ..... but I believe that Weeden's incomplete passes account for 22% of first down plays.
As far as big plays, I remember several 2nd or 3rd and forever that we converted via the pass. I do not believe that the majority were on 1st down. Heck, we run almost half the time on 1st down as it is. (Weeden 183 passes on 1st down compared to Richardson's 138 runs, Hardesty's 25 runs on 1st down, and the variety of gimmick plays) The major problem is when we run on 1st and 2nd down and get next to nothing. We have also had an inordinate number of penalties.We have lost 857 in penalty yards this year, which is 7th worst in the NFL this year. We have had 94 penalties, which is 12th worst in the NFL by number of penalties.
Add it all up and there are a lot of problems, not just the QB.
I am NOT saying that Weeden is without blame. He definitely is. He looked timid for much of the game against the Redskins, like he had no idea what was going on around him. He has been holding the ball too long, especially in the past few games. However, he is a rookie QB and still developing. He still has stuff to learn. Very often, the biggest steps a QB takes is in between his 1st and 2nd years starting.
I also look at teams likely to be looking for a QB this off-season. I come up with Jacksonville, KC, probably Oakland, Maybe Philly, (depending on how much the like Foles) Buffalo, NY Jets, Maybe Tennessee .... and maybe us. That's a lot of teams who could be on the market for a signal caller.
I don't see Blaine Gabbert as the answer in Jacksonville, and I bet they don't either. Coaching changes could be on the way there. Regardless, Gabbert isn't a playmaker in any sense of the word.
KC and Arizona have nothing at the QB position. They each need a new guy, or they will be 10+ loss teams again next year.
Foles has been decent in Philly. He's not spectacular, but decent. Do the Eagles stay with decent? Probably for a year anyway, to see if he develops.
Buffalo looks like they are going nowhere with Fitzpatrick. He also looks like a decent, but underwhelming QB, and one who breaks down at exactly the wrong time. I can see tham taking a guy to develop if nothing else.
The Jets are a train wreck at QB. I see almost no way that either Sanchez or Tebow return.
The Titans cannot be overly enthused about what they see in Locker. I know that he'll only be a 3rd year player next year, but he really doesn't seem to be improving.
Anyway .... if we decide to pursue another QB, we're likely to have a lot of competition.
OK, brain had gone kaput, time to lay down.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015 |
Ugly loss just adds more question marks around Brandon Weeden: Bud Shaw
CLEVELAND, Ohio -- What we know about Brandon Weeden hasn't really changed much from September to mid-December. Big arm. Short on instinct.
What's different now is the near certainty that because Sunday was his 14th game and not his fourth, he's invited serious competition next training camp and left himself vulnerable to a demotion if the next regime goes on a talent search.
"Frustrating," Weeden called the 38-21 loss to Washington. That's a word for September and October. This step back for him prompted other defining terms, some of them even printable.
The two interceptions. Four more batted balls to add to his league-leading collection. A sense of rhythm early that called to mind middle-school boys pulled onto the dance floor for the first time. Being widely outplayed by a soft-tossing fourth-round draft choice making his first NFL start.
Take your pick. Choose two if you want. You can't go wrong.
Next year the racks could be completely cleared of old merchandise, including the new old quarterback who turns 30 in October. The Browns could have a new head coach and a new personnel man to go along with their new owner Jimmy Haslam III and new CEO Joe Banner.
Tom Heckert, who made the move up to draft Weeden in the first round at the suggestion of Mike Holmgren, could follow the Big Show out the door. Heckert's job security is only promising when compared to that of the head coach who has started Weeden every week without looking back at Colt McCoy.
"I don't think it was a setback for him," Pat Shurmur said of a day Weeden tried to salvage with a 69-yard fourth-quarter touchdown pass to the human blur, Travis Benjamin.
This was a setback for a few reasons, not the least of which was the timing. Big game. Late game. Home game. Three-game winning streak.
Weeden looked confused. He didn't see linebacker Rob Jackson drop into coverage on one interception. He held the ball too long and simply didn't show half the survival instinct of rookie Kirk Cousins, who pulled himself out of an early fire and torched the Browns on play actions time and time again.
Browns lose to Redskins 38-21
Enlarge Plain Dealer photography staff Cleveland Browns quarterback Brandon Weeden gets sacked by Washington Redskins outside linebacker Rob Jackson in the second half Sunday, December 16, 2012 at Cleveland Browns Stadium in Cleveland. The Browns lost the game 38-21. (Joshua Gunter/ The Plain Dealer) Browns lose to Redskins 38-21 gallery (26 photos)
Browns lose to Redskins 38-21
Browns lose to Redskins 38-21
Browns lose to Redskins 38-21
Browns lose to Redskins 38-21
Browns lose to Redskins 38-21
No debate here if you want to argue that Washington coach Mike Shanaham put Cousins in a better position to succeed than the Browns' offense puts Weeden. That speaks against Shurmur and Childress, not necessarily on behalf of Weeden.
Weeden leads the league in batted passes. Good thing he's not 5-10.
"I'm 6-4 but these other guys are 6-4 and taller and they do a good job of batting them," Weeden said.
Chalk some of that up to the West Coast offense. Weeden throws a lot of short slants that must clear the interior of the defensive line. It's a timing offense. Defensive lineman can't get to him so they read him, plant and reach for the sky. What we don't see is Weeden (and Shurmur) making adjustments. This offense limits his snaps in the shotgun and hardly ever picks up the pace on a defense. As a result, when the Browns must go to a hurry-up offense there's not much hurry up in it.
What there's been, though -- certainly more times than not -- is Secret Service-level pass protection. The most disconcerting aspect of Weeden's first season is his inability to improvise when the pressure does come. Only lately has he figured out the value of the short scramble.
Sunday reminded us what some lost sight of during the three-game win streak -- that Weeden and Shurmur need some breakout offensive games to recommend them to Banner and Haslam. This was a lost chance to do it against a challenged secondary.
"This was the last home game," Trent Richardson said. "We were supposed to go out with a blast. It was a big ball game for us and we didn't do what we were supposed to do."
The throw to Benjamin brought the briefest of hopes for the Browns to still go out with a bang. It also lit up Twitter with Weeden supporters pointing out that McCoy doesn't make that throw. Right. He doesn't. But that only goes so far when the other team is returning an interception. Or two.
Especially not too long after seeing big-armed Derek Anderson go off like a Fourth of July bottle rocket for one season, then watching his shortcomings turn his career into a dud almost as quickly.
I've made the case that Weeden's arm is too good to shortchange him, that the Browns must see what he can do in 2013, that he is, after all, still a rookie.
Now -- like most everything else in Berea -- it's understandable if that's under serious and critical review.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761 |
Quote:
I've made the case that Weeden's arm is too good to shortchange him, that the Browns must see what he can do in 2013, that he is, after all, still a rookie.
Now -- like most everything else in Berea -- it's understandable if that's under serious and critical review.
So you're as fickle as the next homer on here Bud. You really needed 1000 words to say that? Really? 1 bad half against a highly motivated PO contender playing their best ball of the season and "most everything else in Berea" should be considered to be fired?
Yeah, this fickleness has taken us very far since 99 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761 |
Quote:
Quote:
that was an extra pick from the ATL trade
So it doesn't count? Or it's okay if it is wasted? I don't get the logic behind that.
I made it pretty clear what I said, it's your problem if you a) can't read or b) act as if you didn't understand
Weeden was a necessary gamble, considering value of position and investment cost, TRich an unnecessary one considering those both factors
If both fail, which they are doing BOTH more often than not, which one hurts more? the top 5 pick + 3 other ones at a low value position or the mid-late 1st rounder on a high value position? I'd rather strike out with Weeden going for the fences than bunt into a double play with TRich...and yeah, "outs" are never good, thought you guys might be clever enough to figure that out...clear now?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,288
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,288 |
If I had the chance to do it over again, I might pick TR where we did...I would NOT pick Weeden where we did...absolutely not.
I think Shurmur stubbornly annointed Weeden as the starter way too early and was/is unwilling to bench Weeden when it was/is appropriate. When Weeden struggles - like he has so often this year - what's the problem with running Colt out there to see what he's got? I think that is too much for Shurmur to manage - and it potentially cost us a couple wins.
Not even playing Weeden in the 4th preseason game was so Shurmur-esque in it's ineptness that it's funny.
I'm not giving up on Weeden...but he needs to be benched when he is stinking up the joint...just like any other position on the field. As a starter and a rookie needing to learn....I say benched for that game...not cut, traded, or exiled to the CFL.
We are at the end of the year...and we do not know what we have in either of our two QBs...and there are no apparent studs in the draft...just what we did not need to happen.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,521
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,521 |
I think we know exactly what we have in Colt...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,288
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,288 |
Quote:
I think we know exactly what we have in Colt...
Really? That's interesting because I have no idea what we have in Colt...and I am very concerned about what we might not have in Weeden.
I'm not about to re-hash last year's argument...however...Weeden is playing this year a lot like Colt was last year...with significantly better talent at his disposal and a team in the second year of Shurmur's offense.
I think Weeden's ceiling is higher than is Colt's...but I can see how Colt may be more successful THIS year.
Weeden should have sat after the concussion and watched from the sidelines for a couple of games...as it is, his awful play of late has re-ignited our QB controversy.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,227
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,227 |
Quote:
I think we know exactly what we have in Colt...
Not necessarily disagreeing with you but I like how we know exactly what we have in Colt after 21 starts, definitely knew what we had in Frye after 19 starts and BQ after 12 etc, yet beginning to pass judgment on Weeden after 14 is blasphemy to some.
We're... we're good?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,521
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,521 |
I think that, with guys like Colt and Frye, their physical limitations are such that they're the type of QBs who will go as far as their supporting casts will take them. Put them on the Steelers of a few years ago or the 49ers and they'd probably do pretty well for themselves. I don't think they're guys who are going to win games for you on their own. DA was a mental case. I had high hopes that he'd figure it out and harness the physical tools that he has, but unfortunately he never did. Quinn was kind of an odd scenario, because he has the physical tools I'd think most would want in a QB, although perhaps a bit too muscular which maybe inhibited him some. He never seemed like he didn't get it mentally, either. Just couldn't seem to put it all together I guess. You can argue that we gave up on him too quickly, and it'd probably be valid. I think his (lack of) results since leaving indicates that we didn't make a mistake though. Weeden, as so many have opined, is a lot like DA. The physical tools are all there. Where I'm hoping he's different is that he can learn from his mistakes, both week to week and over the off-season, and come back next year with a better understanding of what he needs to do mentally to get it done on the field. I think he can do that. Listening to him speak, he sounds intelligent, though that doesn't necessarily translate to game-day intelligence. Then again, I've always been partial to big-armed pocket passers, and accept the fact that more often than not those types of QBs throw above-average numbers of interceptions. It doesn't mean I'm happy that it happens, but it's a high-risk, high-reward type of thing. Of course, I'd like to see. TD/int ratio that's closer to 1.75 or higher in that scenario, but I'm hoping that an entire season followed by an offseason will foster the familiarity that Weeden and our young WRs need and that it will translate to more TDs next season. Quote:
pass judgment on Weeden after 14 is blasphemy to some.
Conversely, I think it's funny how often we heard people say "the WCO takes three years to learn" with regards to Colt's play last year, but it doesn't seem to apply to Weeden. For the record, I don't think it applies to either guy.
But that's just, like, my opinion, man.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 |
Quote:
I made it pretty clear what I said, it's your problem if you a) can't read or b) act as if you didn't understand
I was trying to see if you meant what you said, because the thought that it was a "flyer pick" is asinine. You take a "flyer" on someone in the 7th round. Not in the first round and not on a 29 year old quarterback.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761 |
You're not the only one around here that doesn't get the concept of draft VALUE and the risk/reward aspect of it, so you won't feel alone on this  Heckert has been the 1st GM I am 100% confident of fully understanding that concept, even some GMs don't and that's why they're bad and get played or make bad value picks, even on good players I have little confidence that guys like Banner, Haslam, McDaniels, Lombardi and even Saban get it judging from their jobs, decisions and/or moves in the past If we fire Heckert it will be the dumbest thing this organization has done since our rebirth at least...and that's saying something
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,276
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,276 |
He has more wins for a rookie in franchise history also. 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 10,226
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 10,226 |
Brandon Weeden on the Cleveland Browns' final two games: 'I must be more consistent' BEREA, Ohio -- Brandon Weeden, coming off one of his poorest outings against the Redskins, acknowledged Wednesday that he hasn't played as well he hoped this season and has to get better. "I can't say I'm completely happy," said Weeden. "I've played well at times and there have been times when I haven't played real well, not nearly well enough for us to have a chance to win. I'm not going to stand here and blame it on being a rookie. That's long gone. It's on me. "I've got to play better. Whatever it is, I need to find a way to give our team a chance to win week in and week out." Weeden didn't cite his young supporting cast, the running game or the way he's being used. Heading into Sunday's game against the 11-3 Broncos, he's 32nd out of 35 quarterbacks with a 72.4 rating. He's also tied for second-most interceptions in the league at 17, one behind Drew Brees and Andrew Luck. But he's also second among rookies with 3,281 yards. "[I need to] be more consistent," he said. "That's on me. There's no one to blame except myself. That's one thing I'm going to have to dial in on this offseason and continue to learn this offense and bring these receivers around and get on the same page and get better." Is Weeden feeling the heat because Jimmy Haslam and Joe Banner are evaluating his every move? "I can't think about that," he said. "I need to play well because I haven't played well enough. That's all I'm worried about. ... Whatever happens, I have to put eight good quarters on tape." Weeden said he needs to get back to the things he did during the three-game winning streak, which ended with last week's 38-21 pounding by the Redskins and their 31st-ranked pass defense. "It's just taking care of the football, being smart, helping do my part, lead good drives, continue to put together good drives, good plays and finish strong," he said. "Numbers are getting thrown out the window now that we're obviously not in the playoff hunt anymore. Now it's just going out, playing well, and getting better." Cleveland Browns Brandon Weeden discusses his season and the final two gamesBrandon Weeden, quarterback for the Cleveland Browns, is not completely happy about his rookie season at this point with two games to go. "I have not played near well enough to give us a chance to win." The Browns are out of the playoff picture and face an uncertain off-season with new owner Jimmy Haslam and CEO Joe Banner.Watch video Despite his 17 picks --including two against the Redskins -- Weeden plans to go out this season the same way he came in: as the heat-throwing, chance-taking gunslinger that catapulted him to No. 22 overall in the draft. "I think you get in the mindset where you're thinking about being too cautious with throws," he said. "That's when you're not as accurate, you're not obviously as aggressive. There's times when you have to be smart, you're in the red zone, or whether it's after a big play or whatever it may be. You have to pick your spots. (But) at this point I've just got to let it fly. From here on out, just let it rip and be aggressive, continue to take shots and see where it ends up." Weeden said he didn't let coach Pat Shurmur's mandate not to throw interceptions seep into his psyche. Coming out of the bye week, Shurmur cited it as the No. 1 thing Weeden needed to improve. Since then, he's thrown five picks in five games, but also has gone 3-2. "No, it didn't affect me," said Weeden. "Honestly, he didn't tell me that personally. If you look at my track record, I may have thrown a couple more interceptions than the next guy, (but) just because of how many times we throw it and how aggressive I am. . . . I've just got to continue that aggressiveness, but be smart. There's a fine line there." Weeden said he still hasn't come up with a solution to getting balls batted down on the shallow crossing routes off the three-step drop. "I've watched them all," he said. "Part of it's got to be me. I mean, obviously they're getting batted down, so I really don't know. They're reading my eyes. I don't have the answers. I need to watch them more I guess." It won't get any easier for Weeden this week. The Broncos are No. 4 on defense, including No. 2 against the run and No. 8 against the pass. They have one of the league's most formidable pass-rush tandems in linebacker Von Miller, third in the league with 16 sacks, and end Elvis Dumervil, with nine. They're also for third in the league with six forced fumbles apiece. "I'm not blocking them, thank God," said Weeden. "These guys are good. . . . I played against Von Miller in college, and I still think he's one of the best players I played against. Dumervil, great player, can really create havoc back there. We've just got to chip him and do some things in the pass protection, snaps counts, stuff like that where you can kind of catch them off guard and give our tackles a chance to get their hands on them." Despite having to oppose one of his favorite players in Peyton Manning, who is fourth in the NFL with a 103.5 rating and has won 147 more games than Weeden, the rookie is looking forward to facing the master. Weeden has gotten to know Manning by working at his quarterback camps the past two years. "I wouldn't say [it's] daunting," he said. "It's pretty cool. My wife said, 'It's pretty cool after getting to know him you get to finally play against him.' She knew he was my favorite player. It'll be fun. I'm excited about the challenge." http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2012/12/brandon_weeden_on_the_clevelan.html#incart_m-rpt-2
Hunter + Dart = This is the way.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Quote:
Quote:
I think we know exactly what we have in Colt...
Not necessarily disagreeing with you but I like how we know exactly what we have in Colt after 21 starts, definitely knew what we had in Frye after 19 starts and BQ after 12 etc, yet beginning to pass judgment on Weeden after 14 is blasphemy to some.
And if you remember, a lot of people had made up their mind long before Colt's 21st game or Frye's 19th game or Quinns 12th game.....
I haven't made up my mind on Weeden, he does make some plays but he also has some disturbing tendencies and his age is still important to me...
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,212
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,212 |
Quote:
Quote:
Nobody should be dumb enough to spend a mid 1st round pick on a 29-year old developmental rookie.
This times a gajillion.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 |
Quote:
You're not the only one around here that doesn't get the concept of draft VALUE and the risk/reward aspect of it, so you won't feel alone on this
I think I do understand that. What I don't understand is drafting a guy who is 29 years old in the first round.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,507
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,507 |
Quote:
Quote:
You're not the only one around here that doesn't get the concept of draft VALUE and the risk/reward aspect of it, so you won't feel alone on this
I think I do understand that. What I don't understand is drafting a guy who is 29 years old in the first round.
When you don't have a QB, and haven't had a QB, you look for a QB.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 |
I understand that as well. Just not the QB I would be looking for in that spot.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 149
Practice Squad
|
|
Practice Squad
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 149 |
Quote:
All I got to say is..... there is only 2 games left and Weeden is still checking down almost every throw. The only ball he throws well is the deep ball but like yesterday he has a tendency to underthrow it. Which is bad, real bad. He's gotten better throwing the cross patterns and the outlet to the backs. Not sure if he has gotten any better at the screen pass because we rarely if ever do them. He still seems to have huge accuracy problems. Especially with the slant and the quick WR 1 yd slant. He seems to always throw behind and outside instead of leading them inside in stride.
I think he has serious accuracy issues and continues to have tunnel vision locking on a WR.
His footwork has gotten much better. And he has seemed to limit his ints some. But I think its made him way more gunshy and struggling with confidence throwing over the middle.
But overall he still making the same mistakes he did early in the year. I think He will get another year. But he better show some improvement coming into camp because whatever plan B is they may use.
The reason I say this is because our team is ready to win now. Give us those 3 fluke games we lost and we in the playoffs. I hope Shurmur gets another year. If we dont make the playoffs then he should be gone. Cuz Heckerts done ahelluva job getting good young talent on this team. And this coaching staff has progressed our young players and have them competing every game. We are building in a good direction..... dont rock the foundation.
Maybe Nike should have designed the Browns gloves to resemble a "CLAY PIGEON" when put together to catch a ball . 
Hears to hoping Dorsey is the Browns Ozzie Newsome.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,288
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,288 |
Quote:
I understand that as well. Just not the QB I would be looking for in that spot.
Exactly!
Some people act as if he was the last QB available at that point in the draft.
I'm not giving up on him yet...but I'm working to bring in someone to compete with him...and with McCoy for that matter.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465 |
I can't see anyone defending the Weeden pick outside of trying to justify their pimping of him.
It was a dumb pick before the draft, a dumb pick when we made it, and a dumb pick today.
A 29 year old developmental guy coming from a backyard offense is the type of pick you make in the third or the fourth.
Weeden was a gamble alright... a big one, with low odds, that we shouldn't have made.
With that said, I hope we don't run him out of town after one year.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761 |
Quote:
A 29 year old developmental guy coming from a backyard offense is the type of pick you make in the third or the fourth.
RBs break down at 30, many even before that, QBs play well into their late 30s...see Peyton or Brady or Gannon or Warner. Who was that last RB again that was a star at age 35+?
My point? The age thing is soooo meaningless, people get hung up all over his age, it's laughable.
Quote:
Weeden was a gamble alright... a big one, with low odds, that we shouldn't have made.
Any QB is, but I'll battle the "low odds" part till I'm blue in the face. Many on here simply don't follow College or the draft process. Weeds was the 2nd best QB on tape, most scouts said that. As a passer RG was even more raw than Weeds, who btw beat all 3 QBs drafted in front of him
Let's collect facts:
- he has the best pass protection of all rook QBs
- he has the most inexperienced (and with that come inconsistency) receiving group of all rooks, no Wayne or Garcon to throw to
- he has the worst running game production (let's not discuss why, injury, inability to run or block...whatever, fact for the QB is that the running game has been crap for the most part)
- only Luck has to carry his Offense as much as Weeds has to
For me, those are facts, not excuses. If anyone thinks otherwise, let me know and make a good point
Also, I'm pretty sure there was a Weeden thread before the season where we posted numbers of what we expected of him. I can't find it anymore, but if someone knows how to, it'd be a fun read because I'm pretty sure he met or exceeded most posters expectation...same goes for our W-L record.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,288
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,288 |
DJ,
You are absolutey correct...and left out the parts where his mechanics are sloppy, his release point is like that of a guy 5'10", he is easily read by the defense, and he is frequently hopeless/helpless when his first read isn't open.
He wasn't ready after the 3rd pre-season game...and he doesn't look ready today. I don't blame him...I blame Shurmur.
But there is a good chance that this is all that Weeden will ever be...I'd say a better chance at that than at him becoming a top-tier QB.
I hope you are right and I am wrong.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 |
Quote:
My point? The age thing is soooo meaningless, people get hung up all over his age, it's laughable.
So let's say Weeden plays till he is 40. That means he played 11 years. Usually guys when coming out of college are 22 or 23. If one those guys played 11 years they will only be 33 and you will get all of their peak athletic years. How is the age thing meaningless again?
Also, Weeden is clearly not a finished product, so after two years of development he will be north of 30 years old. How is the age thing meaningless?
The thing that is laughable is you defending the "age thing," not others questioning it.
Quote:
who btw beat all 3 QBs drafted in front of him
That is the definition of meaningless. As if he beat all three by himself with no one else to there to help him.
Quote:
- he has the best pass protection of all rook QBs
Shouldn't that make him better?
I think the biggest problem with Weeden, or any QB we would have drafted, is the coaching staff. Shurmur was brought in to nuture QB's and both QB's he coached have looked worse the longer they have been around him.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761 |
Ok, let's assume the normal rook is 22yo, TRich is very young at 21...most RBs and DBs are done or significantly regressing at age 30, right?
Now, how many years of "prime" are that?
If Weeden can play into his age 38 season, it's 10 years, that's as much or more than most other positions, esp. RB...and didn't we take a RB at 3?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015 |
Setting aside all the debates, the simple fundamental truth is that even if Weeden had never played a day of physical sports in his life, his physical prime will remain between the ages of 25-33.
All people get slower, lose flexibility, and become more frail as they age. You cannot stop Father Time.
You say his age is irrelevant.
You point to scouting reports to support your arguments.
Scouting reports say his age is a factor.
Now what?
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 |
Nope, you are wrong. Age is meaningless. I hope we can talk Joe Montana out of retirement. Who cares if he is 56 years old?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015 |
C'mon...haven't you see his mall-walker shoes? Dude is thinking about a comeback! 
Seriously now, is age a factor or isn't it? Let's add up the scouting reports. I'm going right down the google-search, lest anyone accuse me of manipulating the information:
Walter football
Weaknesses:
Age; will be a 29-year old rookie
nfldraftbreakdown.com
Has more work to do mechanically than you’d like for a quarterback his age (28 year-old Redshirt Senior)
Optimus Scouting
At age 28, Weeden is completely matured physically; As a 28 year old, a perceived inability to develop, and limited upside bring reason to doubt Weeden's long term success. Some have even gone as far to say he can only be a one-contract player. With a relatively poor track record of minor league baseball players in the NFL, ranging from Chris Weinke to Drew Henson, it is easy to dismiss Weeden's pro potential. However this could not be further from the truth.
NFL.com doesn't say anything negative or positive about his age
NationalFootballPost
Impression: His age will likely keep him from going as early in the draft as his talents deserve.
CBSsports.com
Tries to avoid pressure by throwing late over the middle. Old for a rookie at 28.
NFL'sfuture.com
Intangibles: Being 28 is good and bad for an NFL prospect. Weeden spent much of his teenage years playing professional baseball. He clearly is schooled in the leadership department and has that “it” factor that scouts look for. He is a game manager and studies as hard as anyone at his craft.
Bottom Line: An elite level prospect that will be plagued by his age. He only has two years as a starting collegiate quarterback and played in a wide-open, spread style offense at Oklahoma St. Weeden’s upside is not great as he will be 29 years old when he takes an NFL field. If not for his age, we would be talking about him with the likes of first-round QB’s.
Draft Projection: The reality is that Weeden will be 29 years old as an NFL rookie. If not for that he would be the third best QB prospect in this draft and most likely taken in round one.
draftace
Already 28 years old. If Weeden were 22 he could potentially be worth a 2nd-round or even late-1st-round pick, but his age significantly limits his value. To draft a 28-year-old before the 3rd or 4th round, you’d have to be confident in his ability to start and be effective almost immediately. While there is a lot to like about Weeden – his arm strength, leadership, work ethic – he still needs to improve his footwork and become more comfortable with his decision-making skills under pressure. While he definitely has starter potential, he’ll be 30 before he’s ready to make a significant impact.
OGdraft
People love to debate over Weeden’s age but it’s not much of a factor to me at all. He still has the opportunity to play long enough to make an impact with a team so it doesn’t hurt his value much. At the same time it doesn’t help either. Those who think that because he’s older he’s much better than most quarterbacks in some areas are wrong. He’s not a better decision maker and he still makes the same mistakes any other young and inexperienced quarterback would make. He does have starters upside, but I don’t believe he’d be a top 10 pick if it wasn’t for age.
NFLdraftgeek
All this, and we haven't even gotten to the well known fact that he is going to be 29 years old by next season, which is a serious drawback. I don't think Weeden is an awful prospect, but there is nothing about him that is inspiring, and with all the concerns, I wouldn't take him any earlier than the 5th or 6th Round. However, because after Andrew Luck and RG3, there is a serious drop off at the QB Position, Weeden is being extremely overrated, and is likely to go in Round 2, possibly even in Round 1.
Well, there you have it. Brandon Weeden's age is a factor in the overwhelming majority of pundit's opinions.
Time to put that part of the debate to rest.
Now since I'm back in Ohio for the holidays, I've got some free time. I decided to get the Coaches Film deal from NFL.com. That stuff has proven to be very revealing, and confirms most of what I'd thought about Weeden. It's too early to say he's a washout, but at 29 he's no more versed in the NFL passing game than Tannehill. In fact, he's more confused in the WCO, and looks more confused than any of the top-5 rookie QB's taken this year.
At 30, he's going to be a continued work-in-progress. The truly scary things about Weeden are that at his advanced age, he's still trying to develop the basic fundamentals of mechanics and footwork. These are things which would be considered non-problematic for a 23-year old, but as a 30-year old, well, don't fool yourselves into thinking it's no big deal.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
|
|
|
DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Weeden 1st 7 games/last 7 games.
|
|
