What they do is show dead bodies and carnage, then somehow equate tht into infringing on the rights of law abiding citizens. They prey on the fact that when people see the deaths, it will create such a shock value that people will support limiting our freedoms.
Often times fear is used in a simlilar fashion.
The funny thing is, tons of sks and sks ak's flooded into this country. They are everywhere! For someone to claim that some new ban will make them all disappear is just plain silly.
Many are probably incased with grease and buried. With some cases of hermetically sealed ammo. I mean, at least that's what I probably would have done when they were $79.00 a piece and 30 round banana clipps were about 12 bucks. I mean if I had of been inclined to at the time......
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
The problem is, feinsteins bill doesn't deal with that......other than to say "you must register, at $200 a pop, each of them". You can own them till you die, but you can't sell them, or will them to anyone."
And yes, not just pictures of bodies - but pictures of guns........."these are the big bad assault weapons", and then in her definition, my 9c gets included.
Interestingly, her bill allows her to have these weapons, just not law abiding citizens.
Rochester, N.Y. — Early Tuesday morning, Christopher Boise heard a noise coming from the basement. As he walked toward the source of that noise, the RIT student noticed two men standing in the downstairs portion of his apartment.
"They were waiting for me at the bottom of the stairs," said Boise.
One of them had a handgun trained on Boise.
Within moments, Boise screamed. His cries were heard by his roommate, Raymond.
"It wasn't like a, 'I stepped by stepped on a piece of glass' kind of scream," Raymond said. "So, I instinctively went to my gun bag."
Raymond owns an AR-15 which is a military style rifle.
Raymond estimated that just five seconds passed until the door started to open. It was one of the intruders.
"By the time I had it out and ready, one of the men came at my door, slowly opened it, saw that there was a barrel on the other side and from there backed out," Raymond said.
The two men fled the apartment.
Nothing was taken and no shots were fired.
The rifle was not loaded at the time of the home invasion, according to Raymond.
"They decided this place was a good place to rob, just a wrong decision on their part," Raymond said.
"I'm happy he saved my life. I was very thankful he had his (gun)," said Boise.
Raymond, who is from New York City, said he uses the rifle for sport shooting at local gun ranges.
"The weapon was legal and he protected his property, said Rochester Police Chief James Sheppard. "We're thankful that no one was injured," he said.
Sheppard said there were BB rounds near the broken glass window.
Quote: While I agree that is insane, I totally disagree with your premise... if you study history
Oh I have that’s why I totally dismiss the idea of armed revolt against our government. It could NEVER happen or the odds of it ever happening are like 100 trillion to 1. But in order to reach that conclusion you have to understand the underlying reason why the iron curtain fell and a great deal of the reasons why most of North Africa is now free, sort off.
1st you have to understand what is the bed rock of freedom, then you can look at country after country in eastern Europe that fell over the course of the past 30 years, and what changed. Its there to see and if you can add it up you’ll understand why the odds are so heavy against it ever happening here.
Quote: look at how a bunch of ill prepared rebels fended off the powerful Soviet Army in Afghanistan years ago
Yeah they did with a lot, of anti aircraft munitions supplied by the Ronald Reagan, they were able to hold off the soviets. There was way more involved then just a bunch of rebels with limited fire power, lets just say that.
I actually think you and most people need to study recent history and you need to understand the bedrock of freedom, then you’ll understand why it could never happen here. So the idea that you need to own a gun to defend yourself against a tyrannical government is insane. Honestly study one of the eastern European countries Romania is a great one to study because the overthrow of the government there lasted about 3 days, so the history is short. After you finish studying it think about what led to the freedom they now enjoy…..
I feel confident it will hit you DC, you’re a smart guy….Sorry but I won’t supply you with the answer not because I can’t but I think its important for everyone to understand this part of world history.. We can start another thread perhaps to discus it.
2 Questions here
1 What is the bedrock of freedom?
2 What set eastern Europe and most of North Africa free?
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AKA Upbeat Dawg
Can't believe I am in a group that is comprised of the best NOT just fans but people on the planet.
Quote: Oh I have that’s why I totally dismiss the idea of armed revolt against our government. It could NEVER happen or the odds of it ever happening are like 100 trillion to 1. But in order to reach that conclusion you have to understand the underlying reason why the iron curtain fell and a great deal of the reasons why most of North Africa is now free, sort off.
Armed revolt against our government has already happened twice on a large scale. The first was the riots at the end of the Articles of Confederation, which was the first US government. The second was the War of Northern Aggression.
Quote: Oh I have that’s why I totally dismiss the idea of armed revolt against our government. It could NEVER happen or the odds of it ever happening are like 100 trillion to 1. But in order to reach that conclusion you have to understand the underlying reason why the iron curtain fell and a great deal of the reasons why most of North Africa is now free, sort off.
Armed revolt against our government has already happened twice on a large scale. The first was the riots at the end of the Articles of Confederation, which was the first US government. The second was the War of Northern Aggression.
Based on your reply I now know your out of touch with the 21st century....
Try keeping up with the rest of the world, it would help you make better choices when you speak............
What is the foundation of freedom?
Why is it the Soviet Block countries were able to kick the commies to the curb with little blood spilled and without the benefit of being armed?
Learn something about the world we live in and how it works..........
And what has changed over the course of the past 20 years that will keep it from happening again......
Learn Learn Learn.....
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AKA Upbeat Dawg
Can't believe I am in a group that is comprised of the best NOT just fans but people on the planet.
I'm not complaining about the relativity of freedom, just observing and stating my opinion. I acknowledge the role of government/ corporations/social mores and anything else good or bad that has been put in place, by us. I don't buy into the "Government is out to enslave us" mentality, but I know our government at the moment has become enslaved by dogmatic gridlock.
From the beginning even before Newtown I've questioned why the NRA doesn't do more to cooperate with communities who are trying find solutions for gun violence, that have little to do with assault weapons. I've expressed disbelief that instead of offering help they spend tons of money in regions to stop that region's efforts.
I also think "gun control" is an unnecessary umbrella term that to some has the same meaning as, "Their at my door to take my guns!!!".
I realize assault weapons are only used in a very small percentage of gun deaths. I've asked what assault weapon owners would be willing to do to keep their weapons at hand. The over-whelming response is "absolutely nothing!" I can't imagine how you could be so stubborn that you refuse to listen to the concerns of your neighbors and other Americans.
However, regardless of the claim that citizens in this country are merely being over emotional at this time, there has been an on going concern that gun deaths, illegal gun selling, large clips, and semi-automatic weapons that, even though they're used in a small percentage of crimes, those crimes usually carry a huge death toll.
These concerns have been present decades before Newtown. Ronald Reagan and George Bush both supported assault weapons bans, so this is not an emotional response. In my mind this demonstrates how far and fast our nation has moved to the FAR right.
I'm ALL FOR gun owners fighting for their rights and they should, but the responses given by many and the responses of those who speak for the NRA are basically unacceptable. They've refused to acknowledge the part that guns play in GUN deaths with slogans and often faulty logic. They bear the most responsibility for making this issue, which in my mind goes WAAYY beyond guns, into a "gun issue".
Mostly because they refuse to participate in any rational discussion for problem solving and have engaged in political campaigning.
Many presidents have used the process that Obama has said he'll use. A lot of Americans realize it's because the HoR will never let this legislation see the light of day, yet MANY Americans want it to happen. The HoR has every right NOT to let it see the light of day.
So instead of coming together as a solid group of Americans trying to solve a severe SOCIAL ILL, that has effected any definition of our relative freedom, what has happened is, "Politics as Usual".
This is a great read and I feel it represents the current state of politics in this country. I'm not so sure that many that are against gun laws aren't really just against anything that comes from obama. It's not the idea, its the source of the idea..........Its Sad
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AKA Upbeat Dawg
Can't believe I am in a group that is comprised of the best NOT just fans but people on the planet.
Quote: Oh I have that’s why I totally dismiss the idea of armed revolt against our government. It could NEVER happen or the odds of it ever happening are like 100 trillion to 1. But in order to reach that conclusion you have to understand the underlying reason why the iron curtain fell and a great deal of the reasons why most of North Africa is now free, sort off.
Armed revolt against our government has already happened twice on a large scale. The first was the riots at the end of the Articles of Confederation, which was the first US government. The second was the War of Northern Aggression.
Based on your reply I now know your out of touch with the 21st century....
Try keeping up with the rest of the world, it would help you make better choices when you speak............
What is the foundation of freedom?
Why is it the Soviet Block countries were able to kick the commies to the curb with little blood spilled and without the benefit of being armed?
Learn something about the world we live in and how it works..........
And what has changed over the course of the past 20 years that will keep it from happening again......
Learn Learn Learn.....
BTTB
Wow. Condescending much to those that disagree with you? Just because you say it can't happen certainly means it can't
Odds are it won't, but there is no way you can say with authority that it cannot. If you don't want the opportunity to defend yourself, that is your choice. Don't take that choice away from millions of people that think otherwise. And it isn't just against government oppression. I am more worried about isolated natural disasters and the panic that sets into those that are not prepared. Hungry and angry people will do what it takes to survive.
Other Guns….......%1.....%.1…...%1…....%1…....%1..
Type Not stated….%17….%19..…%20.…."…….%18..
This list doesn't list the # of "assault" type rifles vs "hunting" type rifles but I think its fair to say the percentage of murders by "assault" type rifles and "hunting" type rifles would both be reduced.
For all the overly anal momma's basement boys looking for a gotcha moment, the percentages were rounded and you can go the FBI site (linked) and do your own math if you prefer.
Other guns: I'm thinking potato gun or something similar? Not sure how many rocket launchers are available these days.
Type not stated: Well you can use your own imagination for that one to fit whatever scenario you can make it work into. My personal opinion, if the types were stated, all categories might go up some but handguns would go up the most.
For me this info is pretty clear, an assault weapons ban will eliminate the need to break down the rifle category further but that's about it. Do you seriously believe taking away a pistol gripped rifle is going to save lives? People will just continue to use their handguns.
Since, by far, most "gun related" murders are committed by handgun, if we limit a clip from 13 to 10, do you really think you're going to save lives?
The proposed legislation will do nothing to reduce the murder rate by weapon. Amazingly enough, that number is going down all by itself, steadily over the years.
Quote: Odds are it won't, but there is no way you can say with authority that it cannot.
I don't think I did. But the odds are so heavily wieghted against it happening is makes a not so great argument for having a gun....That would be my point.
It makes the person saying it look like their out of touch. Which is their right BTW, non the less they remain out of touch............
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AKA Upbeat Dawg
Can't believe I am in a group that is comprised of the best NOT just fans but people on the planet.
Quote: Odds are it won't, but there is no way you can say with authority that it cannot.
I don't think I did. But the odds are so heavily wieghted against it happening is makes a not so great argument for having a gun....That would be my point.
It makes the person saying it look like their out of touch. Which is their right BTW, non the less they remain out of touch............
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As I said before, it's already happened twice. The last time was 150 years ago. As for being out of touch, I'd suggest you read up on history. I know the school system doesn't stress knowing history anymore, but history has shown that when a government seeks to disarm the populace, the populace becomes the slaves of the government.
Who's more out of touch? The person who says, 'this could happen, I must be prepared', or the one that says, 'it will never happen, there's nothing to prepare for'?
Quote: Who's more out of touch? The person who says, 'this could happen, I must be prepared', or the one that says, 'it will never happen, there's nothing to prepare for'?
You want to talk about something that happened 150+ years ago and I want to talk about things that have happened in the past 30 years or less.
I really wished you would go and take the time to find out why and what makes people free. If you would do that I'm convinced you would have a better understanding of the world we actually live in as apposed the world that existed 150 years ago. The world has changed more over the past 150 years then it had in the preceding billions of years, so to say that your in touch with the modern world is a bit out there don’t you think?
I don’t want to hurt your feelings or anything honest but take the time to find out about why the things that have happened over the past 30 years keep happening. You'll easily reach the conclusion that I have made a very accurate claim..............That is if you can connect the dots. Read about the east European countries and what led them to freedom, it’s truly eye opening and educational too.....
I will disregard the comment you made about my education in the hopes you’ll at least try to improve on yours…….
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AKA Upbeat Dawg
Can't believe I am in a group that is comprised of the best NOT just fans but people on the planet.
Quote: Odds are it won't, but there is no way you can say with authority that it cannot.
I don't think I did. But the odds are so heavily wieghted against it happening is makes a not so great argument for having a gun....That would be my point.
It makes the person saying it look like their out of touch. Which is their right BTW, non the less they remain out of touch............
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I'm out if touch for wanting to be prepared? We obviously are never going to agree, that is for certain.
You keep going back to this "find out what makes people free" as if it is a dictionary definition. Guess I'm just too ignorant to understand freedom.
Oh I never claimed to have any SKS's or SKS-AK's. I just remember well how this same scare was going on then before the clinton ban on no longer importing assult weapons began. And with prices being so low at the time, it was a great time to stock up on the cheap.
If my memory serves me correctly, you could buy the Chinese version for $79.00 and the Russian version (much better finish and quality) for $99.00.
Corrosive ammo was cheap running for between $79.00 and $89.00 a case. Non-corosive for $99.00 a case and hermedically sealed ammo for $119.00 to $129.00 dollars a case.
Muzzle breaks and other accessories were cheap for them too. The SKS tends to want to rise quickly when rapid firing the rifle. But with a well designed muzzle break you can keep that issue down quite a bit.
For around $1200 a guy could have three locations with 30 round clips, two cases of ammo and a very accurate rifle stashed in each location.
Those days are well behind us now but it was a very affordable and doable plan at the time. I'm not saying I did those things. I'm just saying if a guy looked ahead and had a pretty good idea of what the future would end up looking like, I consider and considered that a very sound plan of action at the time.
And in the event I did have such weapons, they wouldn't actually be in my posession as they would be buried and certainly would not be for sale at any price.
Protection from tyrrany holds no price IMO
At some point we will each have to face the decision wheather we will obey and follow the Consistution or the current law of the land. It doesn't appear like it will be very long now until that decision will most certainly be thrust upon us.
Some have already made that decision and for others it is yet to be determind.
JMHO
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
At some point we will each have to face the decision wheather we will obey and follow the Consistution or the current law of the land. It doesn't appear like it will be very long now until that decision will most certainly be thrust upon us.
That will never happen. Haven't you studied history over the last 30 years? Do you not know the reasons why we are free?
I do know what insurance you need to help your odds of staying free.
I do know that well armed citizens is a strong deterret from not only foreign nations attacking our soil, but also our own governemnt from imposing its will on the people in any marshall law/military capacity.
I also know having something isn't the same as the ability to keep it. Our forefathers granted us certain rights and freedoms. They also gave us certain rights and freedoms that allowed for us to have the ability to keep and maintain those freedoms.
I do see the wisdom in that......
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
2 What set eastern Europe and most of North Africa free?
Please, enlighten us, oh master of history.
I did, and I hope it helps you understand the freedoms you have and why you shouldn't fear losing them....
I didn't connect the Dots for you so to speak I think its important for you to come to that on your own at some point I will enlighten you and when I do it will be obvious...............
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Check out: What makes us free..........
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AKA Upbeat Dawg
Can't believe I am in a group that is comprised of the best NOT just fans but people on the planet.
2 What set eastern Europe and most of North Africa free?
Please, enlighten us, oh master of history.
I did, and I hope it helps you understand the freedoms you have and why you shouldn't fear losing them....
I didn't connect the Dots for you so to speak I think its important for you to come to that on your own at some point I will enlighten you and when I do it will be obvious...............
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Check out: What makes us free..........
Why we shouldn't fear losing them....... What part of history don't you understand? You've given us the foundation of freedom? When?
History is full of governments that have taken freedoms away from their people. The Romans, the Germans, the British, the Chinese, etc, etc, etc. You must seriously misunderstand the way the world works if you think we shouldn't be afraid of losing our freedoms.
Right now, our government is attempting to take away people's First Amendment right to freedom of religion though the health care mandates. They don't care what the populace believes, as long as it toes the government line. Isn't the removal of religion the same as the government approving a single religion? They are also trying to remove the First Amendment right to free speech by using 'hate speech' laws to silence the populace.
Our government is trying to remove the Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms. This is being done by proposing laws to restrict certain gun ownership, keeping guns by being transfered though families or sold, and dictating that the government can confiscate a person's guns after his death. This is to eventually remove guns through attrition. There is also a UN by-law they are trying to pass to limit gun trafficing, by limiting the sale of 'small arms'. Do you want the UN to superceed our Constitution.
Our Forth Amendment rights to protect us from illegal search and seisure by the government has been under assault since 9/11/01. NY already has a policy to 'stop and search' anyone in NY without cause. Our phone calls, emails, mail, and many other activities are already under surveilance by our government. Are you to be one of those that will tell me, "If you don't have anything to hide, why are you afraid to be searched?".
Our rights, which by the Constitution are given by god, are not to be taken from us by the government, but the government constantly tries to limit or remove them. And to finally answer your question...
1. Our rights are god given and inalienable. Our freedom has been won and maintained by the force of will, and sometimes blood, of those willing to fight for them. The people demanding to be free will help maintain those rights. The fool that believes they can't be taken from us will be our downfall.
2. Eastern Europe won back their freedom due to capitalism. The Soviet Union had come to that point where they had run out of 'other people's money' to spend, and their government began to collapse. In a remarkable piece of history, and probably a unique Polish joke, the workers of Poland united and brought down communism in their country. This was mostly bloodless. The fall of communism was brought about by their kids being able to see what our kids were doing. Everything from blue jeans to McDonalds to MTV helped to collapse the Soviets. When you add in the financial pressure to keep up with the US arms race (guns?), they were doomed. Now the commies have become the 'progressives' in this country.
The history of this world is full of governments that have been oppressive, but contains only one that gave people freedoms a government can't take. If you think our government never will, you are living a lie.
Quote: We have something no government can take and it will always gurad our freedom. It's to bad you don't understand what that is.
What your little speach did for me was remove all doubt as to how out of touch you truly are..............
What makes and keeps us free ??? One thing what is that one thing???
Think think think
Since I'm so obviously out of touch, which sounds like an Alinsky demonization, why don't you enlighten me? I'd love to hear just how out of touch you really are. That might be better than your "did not" answers to me.
curb does not mean eliminate. I'm a proponent of the 2nd amendment but pulling out stories of random acts of violence around the globe where the weapon of choice was a knife or a baseball bat or a frying pan and using it as justification for why people need to own a bunch of guns isn't going to convince anybody.
Recently I wrote on winning and losing the PR battle and how the gun rights advocates are losing that battle.. here is a perfect example of WHY they are losing that battle...
Newtown parents urge enforcement of gun laws By SUSAN HAIGH | Associated Press – 3 hrs ago
HARTFORD, Conn. (AP) — Parents of children killed in the Newtown school shooting called for better enforcement of gun laws and tougher penalties for violators Monday at a hearing that revealed the divide in the gun-control debate, with advocates for gun rights shouting at the father of one 6-year-old victim.
Neil Heslin, whose son Jesse was killed in last month's massacre at Sandy Hook Elementary, asked people in the room to put themselves in his position as he questioned the need for any civilian to own semiautomatic, military-style weapons.
"It's not a good feeling. Not a good feeling to look at your child laying in a casket or looking at your child with a bullet wound to the forehead. It's a real sad thing," said Heslin, who held up a large framed photograph of himself and his son.
A handful of people at the packed legislative hearing then shouted about their Second Amendment rights when Heslin asked if anyone could provide a reason for a civilian to own an assault-style weapon.
"We're all entitled to our own opinions and I respect their opinions and their thoughts," Heslin said. "But I wish they'd respect mine and give it a little bit of thought."
web page It was only a handful of people and if you read the rest of the article, what they did isn't all that egregious... but this is what gets the press. And shouting about your 2nd amendment rights to a dad who just buried his 6 year old with a gun shot wound to the head isn't going to win you any support. In fact it's going to alienate almost anybody that considers themselves on the fence on the issue. Honestly, the first thing that came to my mind when I read this was Westboro Baptist Church.. people who are willing to be completely inappropriate in the face of those who are grieving the dead, the innocent dead, just to make their point...
You can give me 100 reasons why this is NOT like the Westboro Baptist Church, but I'm a reasonable guy who actually supports the 2nd amendment.. .and if that is what popped into my mind, then I'm sure similar things popped into other peoples minds as well.
How about if I tell you the new knickname for London is 'knifetown'? I have relatives that live there, and their knife violence is as bad or worse than our gun violence. Please feel free to look it up. I posted a story about an extreme occurance (as it was in a wealthy neighborhood) of a situation that happens every day.
Quote: How about if I tell you the new knickname for London is 'knifetown'? I have relatives that live there, and their knife violence is as bad or worse than our gun violence.
Then why is the homicide rate in the United States 4x higher than it is Great Britain?
Quote: Which numbers are you looking at? Murder rate per capita or total murders?
Based on the per capita numbers, with the UK population being around 70M and the US being 300M, it averages out to the same number per capita.
I've seen the numbers in 3 places and it looks to me like the homicide rate per 100K in the UK is 1.2 and in the US is 4.8... if you have a different source I'll look at it.
I see what the problem is. We're not talking murders, we're talking crime.
•In or about 2006, there were about 60 million (actually closer to 58M, but we'll use the rounded-up number to be kind to hopolophobes) people in the UK as a whole, including Scotland.
•In England and Wales alone — discounting Scotland — there were over 163 thousand knife crimes.
•By the end of 2006, there were more than 300 million people in the US as a whole.
•In the US as a whole, there were fewer than 400 thousand gun crimes.
•In the UK, based on these numbers, there was one knife crime commited for every 374 people (rounded down).
•In the US, based on these numbers, there was one gun crime committed for every 750 people — less than half a gun crime per 374 people (about 0.4987 gun crimes per 374 people, actually).
•That means that, based on these statistics, you are more than twice as likely to be a victim of knife crime in the UK as you are to be a victim of gun crime in the US.
Quote: I see what the problem is. We're not talking murders, we're talking crime.
Actually I was talking all homicides, whether by gun, knife, arsenic, hanging, strangling or being beaten to death the GMs toilet seat. You are 4x more likely to be murdered in the US than you are in GB, regardless of the method..
I found a ton of knife violence rates.. what I had trouble finding was a knife death rate...
And I have a serious question, if somebody goes into a house and shoots 4 people, is that one gun crime or is that four gun crimes? Likewise, if I don't have a concealed carry permit and I get caught with a gun in my coat, even if I never used it, is that a gun crime? And I would ask the same question about knives in the UK since they have pretty strict laws about the kind of knives people (especially youth) can buy and carry...
I get your premise, that knife violence is bad in parts of the UK... and you make the assumption that it is because there are far fewer guns and you are probably correct... but while there might be more "knife crimes" there are significantly fewer deaths...
Quote: I kinda got an issue with anyone that confronts a father who just lost his son with anything less then compassion. Regardless of how he lost his son.
Guess that depends on what you mean by confront... He stood up and expressed his opinion in an assembly about gun controll, some people shouted (per the reporter) back about 2nd amendment.
I wouldn't call that confronted.
I also wonder what the reporters definition of shouted was, did the person yell with anger or passion, or did the person yell from the back of the room loudly so they could be heard? Was the "shout" done in a threatening manner, or a loud statement?
Last edited by FloridaFan; 01/29/1304:30 PM.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
Emotionally charged atmosphere so something was bound to jump off and of course the "news" reporters couldn't wait to point out this confrontation between the grieving parent and the nut job gun rights wackos . I understand that this father wants to make sense of it all and if this cause is gets him out of bed in the morning and gives him a reason to live then I wish him well in his quest .
Quote: I kinda got an issue with anyone that confronts a father who just lost his son with anything less then compassion. Regardless of how he lost his son.
Guess that depends on what you mean by confront... He stood up and expressed his opinion in an assembly about gun controll, some people shouted (per the reporter) back about 2nd amendment.
I wouldn't call that confronted.
I also wonder what the reporters definition of shouted was, did the person yell with anger or passion, or did the person yell from the back of the room loudly so they could be heard? Was the "shout" done in a threatening manner, or a loud statement?
some people shouted (per the reporter) back about 2nd amendment.
I don't really think I need to say more than that.
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