Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
O
Hall of Famer
OP Offline
Hall of Famer
O
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
I don't recall seeing this article, but it is a couple of years old. Seeing as how it's Xmas, this seems like the perfect time to post a good article, one that paints a much different picture of Banner than those articles and posts which label him a heartless bean-counter...

web page

Will the Real Joe Banner Please Stand Up?
When he first came to town to run the Eagles, Joe Banner was known as a smart guy and a generous, sensitive soul. Then Eagles Nation got ahold of him — and made him the most hated man in Philadelphia
Text Size: A | A | A
By Robert Huber
September 2010
0 Comments and 0 Reactions
11

Photography by Ryan O’Donnell

Joe Banner is deep into talking about what it’s like, to run a pro football team in Philadelphia, when there’s a knock on his office door.

“Yeah,” he calls out.

The door opens.

“Oh my God!” Banner says. “Are you kiddin’ me?”

At the door is a young blonde with her newborn baby. “I didn’t want to interrupt,” she says. It’s Tina, team owner Jeff Lurie’s assistant, who’s been out on maternity leave.

“It’s one of the rules of the office,” Joe says as she hands over her daughter. “You have to bring your baby in, and I have to get to hold it.”

Sitting behind his desk, Joe cradles the newborn — her name is Olivia — up high on his shoulder, and starts cooing to her: “Pretty good grip. You have a very good grip. A good grip. You do. How you doin’?”

Before Olivia’s arrival, Banner had been talking about how, a few years ago, his son Jon woke up one Monday morning refusing to get out of bed: “Dad, you don’t know how horrible it is for me to go to school the day after we lose a game.” Jon was hearing stuff like The Eagles suck. Your dad doesn’t know what he’s doing. He was in third grade at Penn Charter.

Not knowing what he’s doing — that would be one of the kinder critiques of Joe Banner in Philadelphia. Generally, opinions, on sports-talk radio especially, get a little personal: that he’s a smug, cold bottom-line guy quite willing to jettison popular players once they approach the ripe old age of 30. Troy Vincent. Hugh Douglas. Duce Staley. Brian Dawkins — that one, Dawkins, really hurt.

The perception is he’s a guy who doesn’t really care about winning. Not enough, anyway. Not like we do. Though he’s very good at lining Jeff Lurie’s pockets with ever-increasing amounts of our cash. (Forbes says Lurie’s team is now worth a cool billion.)

“What’s going on?” Joe whispers to Olivia. She starts to fuss. “Don’t be doin’ that. Don’t be doin’ that. … This is the best lap in the whole building.”
“I probably gave you a cranky baby,” Tina apologizes.

“You’ve got the best lap in the whole building and you’re going to give me a hard time, huh?” Joe coos.

“Babies are his thing,” Tina explains.

Joe Banner gets up from his desk with Olivia. He’s a small man — tiny, really — with a springy, athletic bounce. Perfect for calming babies. Though Tina reminds him of another visit, when a two-year-old vomited across his desk from the relative safety of its mother’s lap.

“It was quite unpleasant,” Joe remembers pleasantly, bobbing around his desk with Olivia.

“Now she’s fine with you, Joe,” Tina observes, “so just take her for the afternoon.”

“How’s that thumb?” Banner asks Olivia. “You’re chumpin’ on that thing pretty good.”

Then, softly, he thanks his new friend for coming by, and Joe Banner returns to talking about what it’s like to be him in this city. First of all, he and Lurie want to win, desperately want to win, the Super Bowl. The idea that they’re not obsessed with winning it drives him crazy. And:

“When they talk about the organization being greedy — I couldn’t be more clear how false that is, and how unfair that feels, and I would be lying if I didn’t admit that bothers me.” In fact, he points out, pretty much every team ends up spending the same amount of money, as limited by the league’s salary cap.
The problem is, with Joey from Roxborough calling up WIP and railing that that freakin’ Banner is a cheapskate, the little guy who thinks he’s so smart but didn’t re-sign my favorite player, an image has spread into the general consciousness like poison dumped into a well.

Never mind that the Eagles have been very good for a decade, and keep knocking on the door of a championship. There’s only one question to supply a necessary tension, to keep the drama going year-round: What’s keeping them from busting through?

Every drama requires a villain. Banner — he’s from Boston, for chrissake. He’s cheap, he’s cold, he’s controlling, he’s arrogant, he doesn’t care — not the way we care. Keep saying it, over and over, and it becomes the truth.

But who is this guy, really? Only one thing’s certain: Joe Banner, spontaneously cooing sweet nothings to a baby — who could possibly believe that?

He was always small — he’s five-foot-five now, his mother Micki alleges — and when Joe was young and growing up outside Boston, he was teased. Micki, 83 years old, tells a story of early fierceness, of six-year-old Joseph allowing a much bigger friend to take a toy of his, waiting a half-hour, and then pushing him down the stairs as a warning. But she also remembers a more wrenching problem: how Joe was too small to play sports in public school, where he was known as Shorty.
His parents moved him to a small private school, where on the first day a classmate wondered how he could possibly be old enough for seventh grade, and where, at 14, he took part in a school fund-raising car wash and managed to drive one car into a pond because … he couldn’t reach the pedals. The story’s still infamous school lore.

But Banner found an escape: camp. He says that if we want to understand who he is, what he became, we need to understand his camp experience at Skylemar in southern Maine. It’s where Banner’s sons, Jason and Jon, 15 and 13, now spend seven weeks of their summers playing sports.

At camp, the playing field was level, and Banner started to learn how to channel his competitiveness, to begin gaining control of himself. What he learned from the two men who owned Skylemar, he says, might have made camp more important, even, than his own family. Though Joe has trouble defining why.

One evening this summer, Banner and his wife Helaine — relaxed in their living room in Haverford, where the back windows look down into a peanut-shaped pool and where Joe spends many sleepless nights mulling some Eagles crisis as he stares into his gargantuan aquarium of exotic freshwater fish — try to uncork the essence of Joe’s youth.

“There’s never going to be any criticism of Joe at camp,” Helaine explains, as if it’s a place still present in his life. “It has to do with Herb Blumenfeld, the owner who’s still alive, especially. He’s such a warm, sensitive person. Yet he’s a fierce competitor.”

Helaine’s a very small woman with dark hair and a smile so preternaturally large that it swallows her eyes, and she lets us rest on that thought for a moment because it’s an important dichotomy: both gentle and tough. She is describing her husband.

Joe’s a little embarrassed: “Her version of my toughness is that I just fool everybody.”

“Really, he’s not that tough,” she agrees, laughing. “I am way tougher.”

“But then I use that,” Joe says. “If the guy on the other end of a negotiation thinks I’m tough, it’s very helpful.”

In fact, toughness, confidence — he always had them, despite his stature. Joe was 15 when he met Jeff Lurie, a fellow Bostonian a year and a half older, through a mutual friend (and Camp Skylemar bunkmate). Joe and Jeff immediately connected over watching sports. And they both held an improbable idea about where they wanted to end up: Jeff would own a professional sports team. Joe would run one. After college, Jeff moved to California and got into the movie business; over the years, they’d keep in touch, sometimes meet up on vacations.

Always, they talked sports.

Joe went to Denison University in Ohio, where he majored in economics; senior year, he interned at WCAU radio here in Philly. Post-college, Banner wrote to NFL teams looking for entrée to that dream job — predictably, no teams invited him in. When a deal to buy a camp in Maine with a friend fell through, Banner started a retail men’s businesswear company with his father. Joe’s tough side — the one that has no trouble controlling a bottom line — -expanded the business into outlets in several cities; Banner secured a healthy nest egg when they sold the company in 1992. It was time to flex a softer muscle.

Pushing 40, still single, Banner decided he wanted to create a nonprofit volunteer organization. He was advised to go see two Harvard Law grads who were brainstorming City Year, a national service organization of young adults working as full-time tutors in challenged urban schools.

“I’ve never gotten another phone call like Joe’s,” one of the City Year founders, Alan Khazei, says. Here was a successful businessman who approached them with no agenda other than to see how a nonprofit operated so he could start his own. But Banner realized he wanted, instead, to volunteer for City Year, and asked Khazei a question: What do you guys need?

What they really needed, it turned out, was a bigger space. Banner spent more than a year securing new digs for the start-up, which Bill Clinton would visit in 1992 as he planned AmeriCorps.

One other thing Banner did for close to two years: One day a week, from morning to night, he read to seriously ill patients at Children’s Hospital Boston. There were kids with AIDS and cerebral palsy, and Banner got down on the floor to play checkers and other board games with them. When he was eight years old, Banner had had a tumor removed from his shoulder. It turned out to be benign, but he’d never forgotten being hospitalized with other kids whose outcomes were different.

“I could always tell by his voice,” his mother Micki says now — that he’d spent the day at the hospital, if he happened to call her that night. “There was a real sadness, after he went to read to the kids.”

Banner was soon at another crossroads, ready for something different. In the early ’90s, he decided to head to Hawaii, his favorite place in the world. A small problem: Just as he was securing a job teaching eighth-grade math at a private school on Maui, he met Helaine, recently divorced with a little girl. There was soon another complication: His old friend Jeff Lurie had been calling, leaving messages on his answering machine in Boston while Banner was job-hunting in Hawaii: Remember how I always wanted to buy a sports team? Well, I’m ready. Did Banner want to help him?

Lurie admits now it was “a leap of faith” to tap Banner as the hands-on guy to run his team. Clearly, believing in Joe was a feel thing, as if he understood that Banner, so smart and independent-minded and committed — “When Joe loves something, he cares about it intensely” — really was waiting all along for just this opportunity.

Before leaving Boston, Banner went to City Year with a plan: He wanted to expand the organization into Philadelphia. It’s been hugely successful here — rivaling New York’s as the biggest in the country — with more than a thousand volunteers. Banner won’t divulge how much time he now devotes to the organization, but when City Year people talk about him, they say things like “Joe Banner is a national treasure.”

“I guess I drank the Kool-Aid,” Banner explains. He really believes giving a year to national service post-college can become as commonplace as joining Facebook.
As for the way Banner is viewed in Philadelphia, as the cold, bottom-line-obsessed suit who really cares only about making Jeff Lurie richer, a mystified Alan Khazei shakes his head: “It breaks my heart.”

What, then, of that other Joe Banner? The dark one?
Angelo Cataldi, the loudmouth of WIP’s morning show, is the ringleader in hammering him. Consider some nuggets from last year, in the wake of safety Brian Dawkins leaving the Eagles for the Denver Broncos, preserved from Cataldi’s side gig as a Metro columnist:

The newspaper won’t let me use the four-letter words that come to mind first when I think of the Eagles under Joe Banner, so I’ll use the one word that I know will leave a lasting impression. Cheap.

A week earlier, he’d written:

My hatred for the Eagles right now goes beyond even the stupidity of this decision and the total disdain it shows for the fans. My hatred also stems from the way the Eagles do things — as always, so devoid of simple human feeling.

Cataldi’s tone toward Banner on-air is even deadlier. He defends himself by claiming his attacks are never personal, even though an eight-year-old could see that’s the point of them. Cataldi’s sidekick, Al Morganti, raises an interesting question, however: “In my experience, you can never tell people what to think. How much does media really shape views?”

In Banner’s case, a lot — given that he doesn’t speak all that much publicly. Art Block, the general counsel at Comcast who met Banner several years ago when Block volunteered for City Year, had bought the party line: Banner was — all together, now — “a cold businessman without a compassionate side who didn’t care about players as people.” After meeting him, Block poked his head into his boss David Cohen’s office and said, “Joe Banner is really … good” — as in, flat-out driven by a worthy cause — “or am I missing something?”

Cohen knows Banner well, and he assured Block that he had read the guy right. Cohen calls Philadelphia “the smallest big-city echo chamber in America. Where conventional wisdom becomes wisdom.”

From the get-go, it was a stretch for Lurie and Banner, two guys with zero experience in professional sports, to think they could march into Philadelphia and take over the Eagles. But they believed, in fact they were dead sure, that they would figure it out. Take the hiring of Andy Reid in 1999, which is Banner’s favorite story. No one had ever hired a head coach who hadn’t run a college team or overseen an offense or defense in the NFL; an impressive coaching résumé was deemed crucial. That was completely backwards thinking, Banner decided. He and Lurie analyzed the qualities the most successful coaches shared — scrupulous attention to detail, absolute commitment to a philosophy, obliviousness to public criticism … hello, Andy Reid! Never mind that Reid was an obscure Green Bay assistant coach. Banner’s and Lurie’s huge risk — just to remind our listeners out there — became the winningest coach in team history.

But even as the team did well, Banner got heat. He understood the JOE THE CLOTHES SALESMAN signs at the Vet making fun of him early on — as somebody from Boston, as somebody with no football background, he had to prove himself. Winning, though, didn’t ingratiate Banner to fans: He was still the cold money manager who got rid of favorite football sons before we were ready to part with them. And word had it that he was a bear to deal with in negotiations, that some players in the locker room hated Banner.

“Hate? That’s a little much,” says Ike Reese, a WIP jock who played linebacker for the Eagles for seven years. “I think most players, during the time I played, thought, ‘He’s going to be tough to deal with. Prepare yourself to be ready to move on.’” Banner admits that several years ago, linebacker Jeremiah Trotter told him how his negotiating stance, wherein he’d list a player’s deficiencies in excruciating detail, was being received by those donning helmets and pads; Banner toned it down.

Peter Schaffer reps current Eagles Mike Patterson and Jamaal Jackson, and ex-Eagle Tra Thomas, whom Banner didn’t re-sign last year, when Thomas was 34. “I’ve had discussions with Joe,” Schaffer says, “that as medical science and doctors get better, the age cutoff should change.”

Ah yes, one of the prime anti-Banner arguments: Hit 30, the team is done with you. Troy Vincent and Bobby Taylor and Trotter and Thomas and Corey Simon and Staley and Brian Dawkins — what they all shared were fans bellyaching that Banner was cheap and cold for not signing them for a year or two more. What these players also share is a sharp downturn in performance, post-Eagles. Even Dawkins, who made the Pro Bowl last season playing for Denver, was targeted by Reid’s offense when the Broncos came to town, because Dawkins now has trouble covering receivers. Banner can’t win. He and Reid have made generally smart football decisions on cutting players loose, but Banner still gets hammered as unfeeling by the same fans who claim he doesn’t want to dance at the Super Bowl as much as they do.

One other thing: Schaffer says he finds Banner not just smart as a whip, but “enjoyable and witty” at the negotiating table.

Enjoyable and witty isn’t the public Joe. But just as fans don’t get him, he doesn’t get us, the fans. That became crystal clear with the opening of the Eagles’ new stadium.

The Linc was something Banner worked on day and night for three years. He had to convince City Council, and Mayor Rendell, and Governor Ridge, that we couldn’t build a new stadium just for baseball and refurbish the Vet for football. We needed a football-only stadium. Jeff Lurie himself would contribute more than $300 million, and “nobody in the world was putting up that kind of money privately to build a stadium,” Banner says. “And it took — this can be taken the wrong way — but it took courage on our part to believe we could generate enough business.”

Banner had to get banks to agree on the risk. He had to figure out how to pay all that debt service. And he had to jet up from the Super Bowl in Miami in 1999 to break a stalemate in Harrisburg, by devising a plan — “It was my idea!” — to assure that stadium tax revenue would cover the state’s cost. So there it was, finally, a glorious new stadium in the fall of ’03, the first time in their 70-year history that the Eagles had their very own place to play. What a wonderful gift to the fans! On the way to the grand prize, homing right in on that Super —

A small interruption. Brought to you by Angelo Cataldi. Something that would be called Hoagiegate.

Cataldi got wind that the Eagles would be restricting the size of packages fans could bring into the Linc, ostensibly for reasons of security in the wake of 9/11, and he seized the opportunity on-air:

“Jeff Lurie and Joe Banner are telling me I can’t bring my hoagie to the game?” he shouted repeatedly. “I have to eat my hoagie at 12:45?” He said it over and over and over and over — that Lurie and Banner were taking hoagies out of our mouths.

Banner went public with a rebuttal: “It is patently irresponsible in this day and age to question the motives behind a policy driven by and recommended by security experts.” That was a colossal mistake, coming off as defiant instead of sensitive. The Daily News created a front page with a hoagie coming out of Jeff Lurie’s ears. Then-editor Zack Stalberg remembers Banner calling him to make his case again and again for an hour and a half: It’s not about money. It’s security. Many other stadiums have these rules.

Cataldi also said, on-air, “If the Eagles are given the opportunity to choose the security, I totally expect them to wear swastikas on their arms.” Both Jeff Lurie and Joe Banner are Jewish. The Eagles complained to WIP management, and Cataldi was suspended for two days.

Still, the Eagles caved in to a foaming fan base by allowing larger, clear-plastic-wrapped packages — our hoagies! — through one entrance at the Linc.

But here’s the rub, where Banner’s hyper-logical world collides with the strange theater of sports fandom. We’ll never know whether the team banning fans from bringing food into the Linc was about security (as Banner still says), or to enrich the food concessionaires (given that he also says, “Every penny we made from concessions was new money that could help us justify the investment”). But that’s beside the point. Hoagiegate wasn’t about greed, but ignorance.

Banner would end up going on Howard Eskin’s afternoon show on WIP — against the advice of his PR people — to spend an hour getting hammered by callers. Ike Reese, the host of the show following Eskin’s, introduced his guest, one Brian Dawkins calling in, by saying, We’re going to learn that everything Joe Banner just said is a lie.

Now, at lunch, Banner doesn’t want to relive the whole Dawkins saga, but he says, “I’ll tell you something nobody knows. After Brian signed with Denver, he remarried his wife, and he invited me to the wedding.”

The recommitment ceremony was in Florida, and Banner couldn’t make it.
Then Banner re-creates a simple e-mail exchange he had with Dawkins after he signed with Denver:

Banner: I feel terrible about your leaving and hope that at some point we can sit down and talk and clear the air.
Dawkins: I hope we can do that too. I’m heartbroken about leaving.

These things — the remarriage invitation, the e-mail exchange — might be self-serving. When I ask Banner if he can help me get in touch with Dawkins, he says, “I’m not comfortable reaching out to him now.”

“Are you in communication?”

“No.”

We’re silent for a moment. Banner pokes at his fries and looks miserable.
In a few minutes, he’ll head back to his rental overlooking the ocean to deal with an erroneous Howard Eskin tweet proclaiming “Say goodbye to vick!!!”

But at the moment, Joe Banner can’t put Brian Dawkins to rest.

Finally he says: “If you asked Brian if he’s disappointed he didn’t finish his career in Philadelphia, it would be an emphatic yes. And do you view Joe as at least part of the reason it didn’t work out — he’s going to say yes. But I do believe — and hope I’m not wrong — if you say, do you respect him, or think he’s a bad person, he’s not going to say anything bad. I would hope. I would be surprised if he says anything bad.”

Brian Dawkins declines to comment. He might be the only one.


***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,202
Hall of Famer
Offline
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,202
I don't judge people,that's anthers job. Do I make an opinion ? Yes I do. On what I've heard ? Nope, On what I see and feel, And as of now I'm watching waht will happen with the team.

Quote:

He was always small — he’s five-foot-five now, his mother Micki alleges




O hell no...He's done, He's taller than me..I'm not dealing with someone looking down on me...

Just do a good job and makes us fans believe, by showing us wins.

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 75,194
P
Legend
Offline
Legend
P
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 75,194
The poor football mogul senselessly picked on and jeered at for no reason by the fans and the media.

Woe is he....



Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

#gmstrong
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,513
Legend
Offline
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,513
Nice article... still don't know how I feel about the guy... just hope we don't blow everything up this year adn can keep building toward the future.


<><

#gmstrong
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 7,234
B
Hall of Famer
Offline
Hall of Famer
B
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 7,234
Quote:

still don't know how I feel about the guy... just hope we don't blow everything up this year adn can keep building toward the future.




That's how I feel. Think we should keep calm & cautiously optimistic.

Still have hope he keeps Heckert though....

Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,456
N
Dawg Talker
Offline
Dawg Talker
N
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,456
Quote:

Quote:

still don't know how I feel about the guy... just hope we don't blow everything up this year adn can keep building toward the future.




That's how I feel. Think we should keep calm & cautiously optimistic.

Still have hope he keeps Heckert though....




I can agree with that as well.
Ripped this from the artical on finding a coach....

scrupulous attention to detail, absolute commitment to a philosophy, obliviousness to public criticism

Darn if that doesnt discribe Shurmur to a T. I dont think he survives but it does discribe him pretty well.


If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,006
Hall of Famer
Offline
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,006
Quote:

absolute commitment to a philosophy




What philosophy? I hope it is the philosophy of fitting your scheme to your players and being flexible and creative and aggressive.


Joe Thomas #73
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,456
N
Dawg Talker
Offline
Dawg Talker
N
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,456
Quote:

Quote:

absolute commitment to a philosophy




What philosophy? I hope it is the philosophy of fitting your scheme to your players and being flexible and creative and aggressive.




Actually I see that the opposite way. The coach will not change their scheme to fit players. IE we wont go to a spread offense but keep the WCO. Sure you can make slight changes but to me Shumur seems totally unflexable in that area.

Not saying its a good thing in fact I think its one of my biggest things I dont like about him. Sometimes though I have to temper that with the believe he is just making them run the same plays over and over and over again until they get it right then build on those plays and add in more plays to run over and over again.
That is all IMHO.

Another thing I dont like about him is he has about as much fire as an icecube.
When I hear his victory speeches I just want to fall asleep. Golly Gee you guys played well.

While I dont think Shurmur is the worst coach in the league I see nothing that tells me is a top 15 coach either. Perhaps given more time but I think that clock has wound down for him.

Last edited by NickBrownsFan; 12/26/12 11:44 AM.

If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,959
Legend
Offline
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,959
I truly can appriciate all the charitable things he's done and I applaud him for them.

But what I care about is, what's he gonna do here.

He may hire Daryl as HC and his other brother Daryl as GM and I might look at that and say,,, What in the hell is he doing?

But in the end, if we win,, I'll shut up and thank him.


#GMSTRONG

“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan

"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,649
R
Hall of Famer
Offline
Hall of Famer
R
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,649
Thanks for posting the article. That was a great read.

My thoughts: I give Banner credit for his philanthropy.

- Given the criteria he used when hiring Andy Reid, I wouldn't be surprised if he keeps Pat Shurmer. However, given what the media has told us, Pat Shurmer has 0% chance of staying.

- His experience with the Philly media will help him deal with the Cleveland media.

- After reading about the Brian Dawkins situation, this tells me that Banner had decision making power over personnel in Philly, and he'll have even more here. As much as I hate to see it happen, Heckert will not be here.


The whole situation doesn't feel right. I feel that this is the wrong place/wrong time for Banner. The Browns are in the middle of a rebuild that was started by Holmgren and Heckert. I can see signs of improvement and feel that Heckert is the right man for the job. We do not need Joe Banner here - he could have gone to several other places and oversaw a rebuild (Kansas City, Oakland, etc.) We don't need him right now. - That's why this doesn't feel right.

However, if he keeps Heckert, then I'm more than happy with the situation. I wouldn't mind giving Shurmer another year, considering that some games were decided by lack of execution, not coaching.

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 16,197
Legend
Offline
Legend
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 16,197

I read this article before it was posted here.

It did change my perspective of Banner in a positive way. My hope is that Banner and Haslam get this right. They are committed and intelligent.

I truly believe that their approach will be correct. The question that remains is will they find the right people? Will those people be willing and able?

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,363
Dawg Talker
Offline
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,363
This guy was very successful in Philly, yet because of an media talking head, he is portrayed as a villian. While he is being lambasted by a loud mouth on the radio, Philly is annually a good team making the playoffs.

IMO, he is not getting a fair shake here, and he hasn't even really started his job yet. When Cribbs is not resigned, one of Clevelands loud mouth media figures will bash him as they did with Belichek.

Keeping older players just because the fans love them, is not the way I want my team run. In this salary cap age, it has to happen. Keeping the talent young and improving is what I want. Players leave as soon as the money gets better elsewhere, and that is alright, but trying to keep the team cap healthy and the talent young isn't. That's backwards to me.

The media can ruin people. They can make the kindest person look like a jerk, and make the jerk look like a saint. Look at politics for God's sake. Banner needs to be judged fairly on what he does here, not what people think of him elsewhere. Philly fans use not winning the super bowl as a reason to hate this guy, yet, they are one of the better teams year in and year out................to me that is 100 times better than what we have experienced for more than a decade now.

How many of you would hate having winning season after winning season, playing in conference championships, and winning multiple division titles? Not many is my guess.


#gmstrong
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 39,674
B
Legend
Offline
Legend
B
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 39,674
I do understand the feeling, but no matter how we cut it, we finished in last place in our division.

Something needs to be blown up.


If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.

GM Strong




[Linked Image]
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 75,194
P
Legend
Offline
Legend
P
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 75,194
Quote:

This guy was very successful in Philly, yet because of an media talking head, he is portrayed as a villian. While he is being lambasted by a loud mouth on the radio, Philly is annually a good team making the playoffs.




It wasn't "a media loud mouth". It was many in the media and from everything I could gather a large amount of the fan base.

From everything gathered, he had no role in drafting players or the coaching. So if you wish to buy into some feel good, poor old Joe Banner article, have at it.

But lt's face it, we the fans can see what's going on. If you feel that most of the Philly media AND the fan base overall totally dislike Banner and was glad to see him leave because he was so great, that's your opinion based on people in the know disagreeing with you.

Even on this very board you can see that while most of us appreciate Cribbs and what he's done for this team, by and large we understand that Cribbs skills are diminishing and would understand if he's not re-signed at anything more than the league minimum if that.

So we just disagree...

I'm not saying he will be a complete failure. What I am saying is I have every reason to be less than optimistic about the prospects.


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

#gmstrong
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 75,194
P
Legend
Offline
Legend
P
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 75,194
Quote:

I do understand the feeling, but no matter how we cut it, we finished in last place in our division.

Something needs to be blown up.




We had a better record with a very experienced bunch of rookies. Of course things need tweaking still, but to suggest we know what we have right now with all of this youth I see as rather pre-mature.


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

#gmstrong
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,506
Legend
Offline
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,506
Quote:

I do understand the feeling, but no matter how we cut it, we finished in last place in our division.

Something needs to be blown up.




Perhaps.

Or maybe it just needs time to grow.

This is the really difficult question. Is what we have growing, or not? Is there enough growth to justify staying the course?

I can see some growth, but is it enough growth?

I worry about us bringing in a new coaching staff and changing everything, especially on the defensive side of the ball.

I remember how excited most of us were when Savage was hired. Here was a real personnel guy who cold find us players. Then he got himself caught up in 2 different internal battles, and in a very public email fight with a fan.

Then Mangini came in, and opinions were split, at best.

Then he was let go, while the new guys who were going to rebuild this team were brought in. Holmgren and Heckert would right the ship for sure. Now, less than 3 years later, Holmgren has packed his bags and left the building, and speculation is that Heckert and Shurmur are right behind him.

Since the Browns returned to the NFL in 1999, we've had Palmer for 2 years, Davis for almost 4 years, Crennel for 4 years, Mangini for 2 years, and now Shurmur for 2 years.

Just to further demonstrate why this has been a mess:

Palmer had Crennel as his DC. Crennel runs a 3-4 defense.

Davis came in and he ran a 4-3. For 4 years we worked on finding guy who fit the 4-3 only to have Davis implode ..... so we turned to Crennel.

Crennel, as noted above, runs the 3-4 defense. Time to start over on D.

Crennel's out, Mangini's in, and we're still with a 3-4 ... but only for 2 years. While Mangini is here, Heckert inexplicably goes out and gets a player in Jayme Mitchell, who in no way fits the 3-4 defense. It turned out that he didn't fit the 4-3 either.

Then we switch to Shurmur, and bring in Jauron as DC. Back to the 4-3 defense we go.

I have watched this team change and switch and remake itself to a ridiculous degree. We switch coaches more and more often ...... going from a 4 year tenure, to a 2 year tenure for each of our last 2 coaches. (assuming that Shurrmur is fired, as expected)

I will go absolutely ballistic if we go out and bring in a defensive minded 3-4 guy who is going to blow up the single most talented unit (This year's DL) we've had since 1999. (or even an offensive coack tied to the 3-4, for that matter)

I don't know what to do ..... but I do know that I am sick to death of the carousel. I'm getting dizzy and I want to get off. Just pick someone and stay with them for 5 or 6 years ..... live with the growing pains and the inevitable problems that they will encounter, and see if they have what it takes. Let something grow.

I'm no Shurmur fan, but I am absolutely opposed to making a change just for the sake of making a change. It seems liek that's the direction we're taking. I would rather stay pat for a couple more years than just go hire some other poor schlub who will be ready to be fired 2 years from now.


Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.

John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,959
Legend
Offline
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,959
Quote:


It wasn't "a media loud mouth". It was many in the media and from everything I could gather a large amount of the fan base.




Fairly or unfairly, the fan base is biased by the media to a great degree.

So, if they are down on a guy, the fan base will undoubtedly take a dimmer view of him.

Remember something else, often times, the Media does stuff like this to get ratings. Ratings are what drive Ad Revenue and income for the newsperson/anchor

So, its much more juicy to blast a guy than it is to support a guy. And that's what they do.

I have so little respect for the media in general.


#GMSTRONG

“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan

"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,513
Legend
Offline
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,513
Quote:

I do understand the feeling, but no matter how we cut it, we finished in last place in our division.

Something needs to be blown up.




Well I understand change is coming... I'd hojpe Heckert would stay... but know that probably won't happen... I just hope we don't get the huge turn over of players...


<><

#gmstrong
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,639
1
Dawg Talker
Offline
Dawg Talker
1
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,639
Just as an aside.... I know it's hard to believe in Cleveland but Philly has, BY FAR, the most rediculously over-heated sports press and mob-mental fan base in America. It's like Cleveland X's five! The sports press and call-in shows are like the worst sensationalized tabloid hype machine anywhere. There's a reason that they're regularly called the worst, meanest fan base in America. It starts with the press.




"Team Chemistry No Match for Team Biology" (Onion Sports Headline)
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,959
Legend
Offline
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,959
Quote:

I do understand the feeling, but no matter how we cut it, we finished in last place in our division.

Something needs to be blown up.




It's pretty simple, lose and change occurs.. That's not always a good thing, but it's what happens.


#GMSTRONG

“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan

"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,006
Hall of Famer
Offline
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,006
Quote:

I know it's hard to believe in Cleveland but Philly has, BY FAR, the most rediculously over-heated sports press and mob-mental fan base in America




Except maybe New York


Joe Thomas #73
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 99
O
Practice Squad
Offline
Practice Squad
O
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 99
Peen,
Is Banner the guy to do it? He took over in Philly when Heckert left and they have gone straight down the toilet under him. From all the great players assenbled under Heckert and Reid, to the garbage that was put in place by Banner.

From a constantly winning teams with 9 playoff, four chanpionship and two superbowl appearences, to losing seasons under his direction. A great thing to look forward to, along with the new PR clown who he hired to help destroy the Browns. Logo's, cheerleaders, merchandising and all that other hype and garbage doesn't win titles, it's just for more $$$$, nothing else.

I'm sure neither of these guys could pick the right water boy, much less anything else to improve the Browns RECORD and put us in the playoffs, which to the REAL Browns fans is the ONLY thing that counts.

Besides, we already have a logo that we used to use during all of those winning and championship years. What we need is less spin and more wins, that's the ONLY way we improve !!!

We need to bring back the home field advantage we used to have, banners hanging over the sides of the stands, people standing in freezing weather yelling and screaming at the top of their lungs, banging the seats a crownd so loud, we actually got penilized for doing so.

Bring back the real Browns and their fans, get rid of all the wimpy wine and cheese fans and bring back the blue collar winners, with all the team spirit. Like GB, Steelers and the other WINNING teams. Winning teams have winning fans not WHINERS.

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,959
Legend
Offline
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,959
Quote:

Quote:

I know it's hard to believe in Cleveland but Philly has, BY FAR, the most rediculously over-heated sports press and mob-mental fan base in America




Except maybe New York




I've had the misfortune to live in both places..., Phillly far outweighs NYC,. Those people are flat out nuts LOL


#GMSTRONG

“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan

"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,006
Hall of Famer
Offline
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,006
Quote:

Is Banner the guy to do it? He took over in Philly when Heckert left and they have gone straight down the toilet under him. From all the great players assenbled under Heckert and Reid, to the garbage that was put in place by Banner




Thats what i was thinking


Joe Thomas #73
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,506
Legend
Offline
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,506
Quote:

Quote:

Is Banner the guy to do it? He took over in Philly when Heckert left and they have gone straight down the toilet under him. From all the great players assenbled under Heckert and Reid, to the garbage that was put in place by Banner




Thats what i was thinking




I thought that Banner was just the negotiating guy in Philly. (as far as personnel goes) Wasn't Reid the final word on players?


Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.

John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,577
Hall of Famer
Offline
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,577
Part of me is responding positively to this article and part of me wonders about the timing and makes me think that at a time when Banner is taking heat.. all of a sudden a sympathetic article comes out. Maybe i'm just too suspicious at what seems like an attempt to polish up his image. Especially with the baby stuff.

And.. maybe it's spot on and he's the right guy?


SaintDawg™

Football, baseball, basketball, wine, women, walleye
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,521
A
Hall of Famer
Offline
Hall of Famer
A
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,521
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Is Banner the guy to do it? He took over in Philly when Heckert left and they have gone straight down the toilet under him. From all the great players assenbled under Heckert and Reid, to the garbage that was put in place by Banner




Thats what i was thinking




I thought that Banner was just the negotiating guy in Philly. (as far as personnel goes) Wasn't Reid the final word on players?




That's been my understanding. Heckert never had final say. That's why he came here. Howie Roseman was named Philly's GM when Heckert left.

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,959
Legend
Offline
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,959
Quote:

Quote:

Is Banner the guy to do it? He took over in Philly when Heckert left and they have gone straight down the toilet under him. From all the great players assenbled under Heckert and Reid, to the garbage that was put in place by Banner




Thats what i was thinking




Well, remember, Banner has a bias towards letting the HC pick the players so was it Banner or Reid that blew the thing up.

remember all that money they spent on high priced talent... how'd that work out. I said it then and I'll say it again, that's a nutty way to build a team. And by then, heckert was already here.

So I ask, banner or ried?


#GMSTRONG

“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan

"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,521
A
Hall of Famer
Offline
Hall of Famer
A
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,521
Reid (and Roseman)

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,101
V
Dawg Talker
Offline
Dawg Talker
V
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,101
Seems like the reported conflict between Reid and Banner started about the time they started bringing in all of the free agents. My guess is that's on Reid. He convinced Lurie to go all in and it imploded. Not sure how that can be on Banner when Reid was calling the shots with regard to the roster.

Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,456
N
Dawg Talker
Offline
Dawg Talker
N
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,456
Quote:

Seems like the reported conflict between Reid and Banner started about the time they started bringing in all of the free agents. My guess is that's on Reid. He convinced Lurie to go all in and it imploded. Not sure how that can be on Banner when Reid was calling the shots with regard to the roster.




Interesting thought but Im more of the opinion that the GM/cap guy bring in 83 players. Then Reid would keep the 53 he wanted.

Here with Heckert I think it was more Shurmur would bring in his list of 53 to Heckert and make a case then Tom would have his list. He then would make the tough choices of the final roster spots on the team.

I know some like the if Im making the soup let me pick the ingredients but remember in the show chopped they have no problems make great dishes with some very strange ingredients.
You either can cook with what you are given or you cant.

Heckert at least read the menu before getting the ingredients. :-)


If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,101
V
Dawg Talker
Offline
Dawg Talker
V
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,101
I do think that, without Heckert, Reid had to make the decisions without any advisement and the Eagles today are a direct result. I hope for our sake Banner tried to dissuade such decisions which resulted in the power struggle with Reid.

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,363
Dawg Talker
Offline
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,363
Quote:

So, its much more juicy to blast a guy than it is to support a guy. And that's what they do.

I have so little respect for the media in general.






This^^^^^^^


#gmstrong
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,639
1
Dawg Talker
Offline
Dawg Talker
1
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,639
Quote:

Quote:

I know it's hard to believe in Cleveland but Philly has, BY FAR, the most rediculously over-heated sports press and mob-mental fan base in America




Except maybe New York




I live in NY, it's not even close.




"Team Chemistry No Match for Team Biology" (Onion Sports Headline)
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
O
Hall of Famer
OP Offline
Hall of Famer
O
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Quote:

Part of me is responding positively to this article and part of me wonders about the timing and makes me think that at a time when Banner is taking heat.. all of a sudden a sympathetic article comes out. Maybe i'm just too suspicious at what seems like an attempt to polish up his image. Especially with the baby stuff.

And.. maybe it's spot on and he's the right guy?


Note the date. That article is a couple of years old.

Even though I posted the article, let the record show it's no coincidence that a reporter was given access to Banner on the same day an employee brought him a baby to kiss.


***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065
Legend
Offline
Legend
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065
Quote:

Quote:

Part of me is responding positively to this article and part of me wonders about the timing and makes me think that at a time when Banner is taking heat.. all of a sudden a sympathetic article comes out. Maybe i'm just too suspicious at what seems like an attempt to polish up his image. Especially with the baby stuff.

And.. maybe it's spot on and he's the right guy?


Note the date. That article is a couple of years old.

Even though I posted the article, let the record show it's no coincidence that a reporter was given access to Banner on the same day an employee brought him a baby to kiss.





You've been hanging around mac too long.


Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
O
Hall of Famer
OP Offline
Hall of Famer
O
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Quote:

remember all that money they spent on high priced talent... how'd that work out. I said it then and I'll say it again, that's a nutty way to build a team. And by then, heckert was already here.

So I ask, banner or ried?


Why not both?

Keep in mind a common roster development model around the NFL: Build through the draft until you have a team ready for contention, then start adding high-priced free agents to make a Super Bowl push.

One of the teams currently doing that is the Niners. They drafted until they got people in place, then started adding what they believed to be a few key free agent pieces:

Mario Manningham
Randy Moss
Carlos Rogers
Brandon Jacobs
Donte Whitner

That isn't a model of trying to fill the entire roster with free agents in the way that the Redskins had done for years.

So the Eagles thought they were ready to make the big push after the 2009 and 2010 seasons. They knew there was this window for 2011 that gave them a chance to make a huge push. So they took the gamble.

It's my belief (and perhaps mine alone) that Reid and Banner weren't at odds in the way that many seem to think. They didn't get into fights over who to sign, where the team ended up with a bunch of guys Reid didn't want. I believe Banner was fired because Lurie felt he was losing the fans after so many near-misses, so the best guy to dump was the least likable of the "faces" of the franchise.

So back to your question, D...why does it have to be one or the other? I don't fault the organization for going "all in" like they did in 2011. They felt they were just a couple of really big talents away from going to the Super Bowl, and when your team is that close, it's common practice to stress the cap by signing free agent names.

Who is to say that Lurie didn't have a say in that as well? None of us know for sure. It appears that Banner had more say in personnel than any of us believed in Philly. That would mean his voice at the table here in Cleveland isn't so unfathomable.

As more info comes to light on any given situation, opinions change. Only an idiot will stick with his original opinion for the sake of wanting to be right. I originally thought Banner was just the business man of the operation in Philly. My opinion on that is changing, and so must my opinion of him here in Cleveland. I used to think there was some big rift between Banner and Reid...the so-called "power struggle"...but the more I've dug into that, the more I've come to believe that Lurie went looking for a scape-goat of sorts to appease the mob in Philly.

Simply stated, what's coming into focus...for me at least...is that Reid and Banner weren't wholly at odds. I think it's rather obvious that while they had differences of opinion regarding guys like Jackson and his contract extension (I wouldn't pay that fool huge dollars) they were pretty-well in-step when it came to how they wanted to build the team for a Super Bowl run. By default, that means they were also pretty-well in-step over the last 10+ years in building a successful roster.

Both deserve some blame for the "all in" scenario failing, just as they both deserve kudos for how successful the franchise was over the last dozen+ years. The only way it's fair to separate the two is over the last year+, when Banner's share of the power was split up amongst Reid and Roseman. Prior to that? People gotta see that Banner and Reid were working together about as well as any two guys could work.


***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
O
Hall of Famer
OP Offline
Hall of Famer
O
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Part of me is responding positively to this article and part of me wonders about the timing and makes me think that at a time when Banner is taking heat.. all of a sudden a sympathetic article comes out. Maybe i'm just too suspicious at what seems like an attempt to polish up his image. Especially with the baby stuff.

And.. maybe it's spot on and he's the right guy?


Note the date. That article is a couple of years old.

Even though I posted the article, let the record show it's no coincidence that a reporter was given access to Banner on the same day an employee brought him a baby to kiss.





You've been hanging around mac too long.


Fixed it for ya.


***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065
Legend
Offline
Legend
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065


Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 75,194
P
Legend
Offline
Legend
P
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 75,194
Quote:


Fairly or unfairly, the fan base is biased by the media to a great degree.




Really? You mean the newbies who don't know football on their own? Just look around you on this very board. So you don't think we have a firm grasp on which media types hype things up? Which reporters are inconsistant?

Quote:

So, if they are down on a guy, the fan base will undoubtedly take a dimmer view of him.




I disagree with that. As much as I view the Philly fan base rude and obnoxious, they do know football. I have talked to a few very well informed Eagles fans that simply didn't like Banner because they saw him as a pencil pusher who felt some need to always stick his nose into the football side of things. Sort of a power hungry weasel trying to control things he simply wasn't qualified to do. The people I spoke with are certainly not the type to be swayed by the media just like we aren't for the most part on this board.

Quote:

Remember something else, often times, the Media does stuff like this to get ratings. Ratings are what drive Ad Revenue and income for the newsperson/anchor




And on the flip side, talking up a team and their decisions gets you favoritism with the team and powers that be within the team. There's two sides to that coin and if you don't believe me, just read the local Cleveland media.

Quote:

So, its much more juicy to blast a guy than it is to support a guy. And that's what they do.

I have so little respect for the media in general.




And I don't trust the media or people with agendas. Just like with the health care issue. You want to know about Canada's health care system? Start having discussions about it with Canadians. That's what I've done.

You wanna know about Joe Banner? Talk to some Philly fans that know their football and all they care about is their team. And they don't care what the media says one way or the other. I did that too.

You can't see the set up here? This reporter just happens to have access to Banner when he is brought a baby to kiss? You don't feel that's a little strange? It's my belief that this reporter had every intention of writing some feel good story and was given the perfect set up to launch it from.

The press works both ways. If the press feeds strictly off of what you say, what possible gain could someone achieve by a feel good article like this?

If the Haslam family can get their own "feel good" television show put on the Travel Channel about the Browns, I'm pretty sure Banner can get a favorable article printed.

Just sayin'.....


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

#gmstrong
DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Will the real Joe Banner please stand up?

Link Copied to Clipboard
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5