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Let's discuss the following topics with these two:
1) Value
2) Gamble and risk
3) Production
4) Upside and downside
5) Predictions for their futures
This is a question Dj posed to me. Any and all should reply... Quote:
Some questions, that I would love to read your answers on:
- isn't it fair to EXPECT much more of such a higher value selection than a lesser one?
- if you say Weeden's pick (including your agenda "he must become great right out of the gate"-"argument") was a waste for this season, what would you lable TRich's value for this season then?
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Hasn't this already been beaten into a bloody and battered mess in about 3 or 4 other threads? 
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Epic ! Toad hiding behind the homers to make a point, even making sure to get the right answers by his choice of words of the thread title (as everyone knows who the bigger gamble was)  You coward 
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Quote:
Hasn't this already been beaten into a bloody and battered mess in about 3 or 4 other threads?
Yes, it has, but by putting it in it's own SPECIFIC thread that should keep any future threads from being polluted by it the way the Weeden thread has been polluted by it.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Weeden is the bigger gamble if nothing else is considered, because he was not considered a top player at his position.
Richardson is the bigger gamble if you consider draft slot and relative value of position played.
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Quote:
- isn't it fair to EXPECT much more of such a higher value selection than a lesser one?
Absolutely.
Quote:
- if you say Weeden's pick (including your agenda "he must become great right out of the gate"-"argument") was a waste for this season, what would you lable TRich's value for this season then?
I never said Weeden had to be great right out of the gate. That's what you wished I'd said. What I'd said even before he took a snap is that he wouldn't even have to throw more TD's than INT's to have a successful season. If you'd like me to prove you wrong I'm more than happy to go find it.
I also never said Weeden's season was a "waste." Boy, you sure suck at reading comprehension. Or we can call it what it really is, which is the classic amateur move on these forums which is to exaggerate someone else's opinion so that someone else can have a bigger soap-box to try and refute it. I'd call it disappointing.
Setting aside what you tried to pull, I would say that Richardson had a decent season, but not what I'd hoped for. Taking into account the injuries he's played through, the lack of run-blocking prowess by our line, and the fact he's playing with 2 rookie WR's and a rookie QB, as well as factoring in how his numbers this year stacked up to rookie RB's over the last decade, I can say with a straight face that he's given us value for the 3rd pick in the draft.
My own predictions for him were 1200 yards and 40 catches and 10 TD's in 16 games.
I can't assume he'll play this week, so 950 yards with 12 TD's and 51 receptions is what he'd end up with. While those aren't the numbers I'd hoped for, they represent solid production when all the other factors are taken into account.
Those numbers put him 17th in rushing, 2nd in TD's, 4th in receptions for running backs in the league. He is also the Browns leading receiver.
If you ask me to rate his numbers without all the other factors, I would call his season disappointing. If you ask me to rate his numbers behind a poor run-blocking line, 2 rookie receivers, no fullback, a rookie QB, and while playing with busted up ribs and no training camp, I'd say his production was solid and that we've received good value.
Now for Weeden. 32nd in QB rating (72.6). 29th in completion percentage (57%) 18th in yards (3385 yards) 24th in TD's (14) tied for 2nd worst in INT's (17).
He played with 2 rookie receivers, a rookie RB, and played behind a poor run-blocking line but a top-10 pass-blocking line. Early in the year the receivers dropped too many passes. In the 2nd half of the year they caught everything.
If Weeden had put up terrible numbers in the first half of the year but ended up with those numbers I'd have said he was curving the right way. As it stands, it appears that he's made marginal, if any, progress as the year went on.
So how does one attempt to compare the value of the two players?
I would expect Richardson to have the kind of production he's given us. I also wouldn't have expected Weeden to give us a year where his QB rating was in the 80's. However, I did expect something better than 72, which is below the curve for successful rookie QB's in today's NFL, but wouldn't be worrisome under normal conditions.
The fact that he's 29 changes the entire landscape.
So, since the board is filled with Homers, according to Dj, let's allow the Homers to speak their peace. I guess because you all are Homers in this case it means your opinions aren't valid. Since neither Richardson or Weeden are from Ohio, and since both are playing for the Browns, I don't know how anyone can be a Homer in this instance, but you apparently are.
Here's the question I would pose to anyone interested in answering:
If Weeden were 23 and posted those numbers, would you feel different than you do now, knowing that he's going to be 30 next year? If so, why?
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Quote:
I would expect Richardson to have the kind of production he's given us. I also wouldn't have expected Weeden to give us a year where his QB rating was in the 80's. However, I did expect something better than 72, which is below the curve for successful rookie QB's in today's NFL, but wouldn't be worrisome under normal conditions.
Strange that you ommitted all negative stats for TRich (like ypc: 39th out of 44 RBs), but chose the most bad sounding ones for Weeden (total INT instead of INT%)...hmmm why would that be?
To trade up from 22nd to 3rd overall would take 2 or 3 Top 50 picks btw....just to make the "value gap" clear to begin with
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Quote:
Strange that you ommitted all negative stats for TRich (like ypc: 39th out of 44 RBs), but chose the most bad sounding ones for Weeden (total INT instead of INT%)...hmmm why would that be?
I also omitted Weeden's yards per attempt (28th) sacks (14th best) and Total QBR (36th) to keep this simple.
All you just did was make me bring out more bad stats against Weeds. Nice job.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Discussion: Weeden and Trich
1) Value
2) Gamble and risk
3) Production
4) Upside and downside
5) Predictions for their futures
========================================================
Value:
When you look at Weeden as far as "draft" value being taken at 22 in the first round along with his age 29. One would have to say he was a reach. No other team worked him out. It was said that Denver had a interest if not for getting Manning. More than likely available in the second or third round.
Weeden's demonstrated skills in college where not exceptional. The issues he had in college were much the same as what we have seen.
As a quarterback being taken when he was and the age factor you would have to say he was a high risk.
Production: One of the lowest ranked quarterbacks in the NFL. Team record 5 - 10.
(Expert Consensus Rank) ECR #33.
Weeden by any measurement is poor.
Upside/Downside: This is where Weeden's age is a big factor, at 29 and being a rookie. Development is hard to wait on. His upside is minimal and his downside is maximum because if you wait on the guy to develop his age becomes a real issue. Back in the day three years was considered a realistic time frame for QB development. Not today for first rounders just look around the league.
Prediction: Weeden may last a few years as a back-up. He will not be a factor in the NFL.
==========================================================
Richardson:
Value: He was projected by Bill Poilan and many others as a top three pick. He college stats and playing for Alabama he was the consensus top running back in the draft. It can be argued that drafting a RB that high in the draft is not a good strategy. Injury is the main concern but also the league is heavily weighted towards toward the passing game. Some "experts" believe you can get productive RB later in the draft. That strategy has proven somewhat correct.
Risk: Any time you draft a RB that high there is risk because RB's typically have short careers. Durability is huge. Trich already has had problems.
Production: He has produced. Not much in the way of big runs or high average per carry. He has proven to be tough to bring down and can move the pile. He also has shown a nose for the end zone. 950 yards and 11 TD's is not bad especially considering health.
Upside/Downside: Still plenty of upside for Trich. He is a hard worker. Willing to do what it takes to play at a high level. He is a leader and a winner. He expects everyone to work hard and he wants to win and to be the best runner in the league.
Downside as with all RB's is staying on the field. His style is what you want but it could also lead to more injuries. Comes with the position.
Predictions: Trich is no Adrian Peterson. But then again that type of talent is real hard to come by. I see Trich as a solid productive RB who will have a good career in Cleveland.
===========================================================
The way I see this playing out is the Browns have to bring in competition at quarterback. They are pretty set at running back.
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Here's another one for Richardson's value: 16th in the NFL in total yards.
It can be argued that fans expected more production, as in they expected (rightly or wrongly) pro-bowl numbers, or something close to that. It can also be argued that the expectations for Weeden were lower because of the position he plays and the fact he's a rookie. But if the biggest and only negative which can be pointed at towards Richardson is his 3.6 YPC, especially when the injuries, rookie QB, and poor run-blocking is factored in, then it's very hard to characterize Richardson's production as being negative.
16th in total yards. Teams leading receiver. Can't blame Richardson personally when he got 9 carries last week and 11 the week before. In fact, it's been a month since he got 20 carries.
QB's touch the ball every play. RB's don't...especially with Shurmur calling the shots.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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So everything that happened involving Weeden is his fault. But hey look at all these reason that Richardson wasn't playing well.. 
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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I think the biggest gamble was Pat Shurmur.
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Quote:
I think the biggest gamble was Pat Shurmur.
I disagree. A gamble usually has odds of working in your favor.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Weeden is a bigger gamble after you factor in the nature of the positions.
The hardest transition for a RB coming into the NFL is figuring out blitz pickups
Other than that he's at the mercy of his o-line.
Weeden is 29 years old. His window to figure out and make a successful transition
to the NFL is small. History and averages tell us Weeden probally would not find success in his rookie season.
in the modern day NFL, rookie QBs that start are expected to play like a seasoned vet by the end of the season.
Weeden has regressed.
If a Richardson doesn't pan out.Really no big deal. RBs are complimentry pieces to a offense now for the most part. Peterson is a exception.
But if Weeden doesn't pan out,it sets your offense back and now you have to commit a high draft pick yet again to the QB position. Now you have to forgo fixing another need in the 1st RD (OG, TE,SS,OLB) cause your QB failed.
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Quote:
I think the biggest gamble was Pat Shurmur.
we have a winner 
<><
#gmstrong
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Impossible to evaluate with any degree of accuracy.
Weeden was a rookie in a new system and apparently not one that used his talentss well.
Richardson played hurt all season
Anyway, it just doesn't matter anymore. beating dead horses is something I'm bored with.
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Is anyone taking into account that Richardson cost is 4 draft picks.
While Weeden was an EXTRA pick we had received from another team?
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Quote:
Is anyone taking into account that Richardson cost is 4 draft picks.
While Weeden was an EXTRA pick we had received from another team?
No.
Doesn't fit their agenda.
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and how many picks did genius Heckert give up to acquire a backup RB in Montario Hardesty?
A 2nd RD draft pick who has a whopping 500 yards in the past 2 years combined and 1 TD.
between 2 RBs,Heckert surrendered 6 draft picks.
6 Draft picks at a position where the Redskins find a 6th RD pick who has more yards than Richardon and Hardesty combined.
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Quote:
and how many picks did genius Heckert give up to acquire a backup RB in Montario Hardesty?
A 2nd RD draft pick who has a whopping 500 yards in the past 2 years combined and 1 TD.
between 2 RBs,Heckert surrendered 6 draft picks.
6 Draft picks at a position where the Redskins find a 6th RD pick who has more yards than Richardon and Hardesty combined.
WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING?
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Quote:
and how many picks did genius Heckert give up to acquire a backup RB in Montario Hardesty?
A 2nd RD draft pick who has a whopping 500 yards in the past 2 years combined and 1 TD.
between 2 RBs,Heckert surrendered 6 draft picks.
6 Draft picks at a position where the Redskins find a 6th RD pick who has more yards than Richardon and Hardesty combined.
Bad comparison,.. Every year someone gets a late round RB that goes big.. Denver did it and won a couple of superbowls with him.
We just got a second round pick in the Supplimental draft that looks to be first round talent
How come you don't talk about that, or is it always about bashing the Browns.
Are you liking Schwartz, are you now liking Little since he seems to have grown up. Hardesty by the way has turned into a decent change of pace guy.
I'm loving late round picks like Skrine and Hagg. Most of us are,,, but you don't ever bring that up,.'
Was Haden a bad pick? Of course not.
How about Taylor and Sheard or Winn or Hughes?
Nope,, All good picks, but all you can harp on is the ones that haven't lit it up.
That tells me that you have an agenda.. all you want to do is talk about the bad, but you won't take a freakin moment and balance it with the good
I'm kinda getting more and more convinced that you are acting like a troll..
'
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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I look at a franchise that is 14-33 over the last 3 years.
aren't you tired of playing irrelevant games in December?
I all heard in the off season how much this team was going
to be improved with a infusion of Weeden and Richardson.
oh the Browns were gonna be a 7-9 team at worst.
I said Cameron would be a non factor and the "experts" on here said
I didn't know what I was talking about.
All I heard was how Massaqiou was gonna bring his "A" game this
year and just wreck havoc on secondaries.
Some even when on to claim the Browns had a "Top 5" o-line.
According to some Rucker and Parker were gonna be this dangerous duo at RDE.
The difference between me and a lot of you is that, I'm not enamored with "average"
I see average up and down this roster.
Of there are some players that can be truly game changers and have Pro Bowl potential. Richardson,Schwartz, Gordon, Winn..maybe Benjamin.
But there are players like Sheard,Little,Hardesty that haven't justified their draft selections.
As far as players like Hagg and Skrine. I think they flat can't get it done on this level. Hagg was handed a starting job and found himself on the inactive list most of the year. Skrine gets abused on the field more than over weight 5th grader in dodgeball. why should I like them?
Phil Taylor when has he made play behind the LOS this year?
I just look at the rest of the AFC North and see very few of the current Browns that could start for them.
you guys can call me all the names you want. I refuse to be satisfied with average and below average. and that makes the majority of the Browns roster.
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Quote:
I look at a franchise that is 14-33 over the last 3 years.
aren't you tired of playing irrelevant games in December?
I all heard in the off season how much this team was going
to be improved with a infusion of Weeden and Richardson.
oh the Browns were gonna be a 7-9 team at worst.
I said Cameron would be a non factor and the "experts" on here said
I didn't know what I was talking about.
All I heard was how Massaqiou was gonna bring his "A" game this
year and just wreck havoc on secondaries.
Some even when on to claim the Browns had a "Top 5" o-line.
According to some Rucker and Parker were gonna be this dangerous duo at RDE.
The difference between me and a lot of you is that, I'm not enamored with "average"
I see average up and down this roster.
Of there are some players that can be truly game changers and have Pro Bowl potential. Richardson,Schwartz, Gordon, Winn..maybe Benjamin.
But there are players like Sheard,Little,Hardesty that haven't justified their draft selections.
As far as players like Hagg and Skrine. I think they flat can't get it done on this level. Hagg was handed a starting job and found himself on the inactive list most of the year. Skrine gets abused on the field more than over weight 5th grader in dodgeball. why should I like them?
Phil Taylor when has he made play behind the LOS this year?
I just look at the rest of the AFC North and see very few of the current Browns that could start for them.
you guys can call me all the names you want. I refuse to be satisfied with average and below average. and that makes the majority of the Browns roster.
I smell Troll
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Damanshot
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Quote:
The difference between me and a lot of you is that
We know how not to push enter after every six words.
Are you writing poetry? I don't get it.
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Quote:
I look at a franchise that is 14-33 over the last 3 years.
aren't you tired of playing irrelevant games in December?
I all heard in the off season how much this team was going
to be improved with a infusion of Weeden and Richardson.
oh the Browns were gonna be a 7-9 team at worst.
I said Cameron would be a non factor and the "experts" on here said
I didn't know what I was talking about.
All I heard was how Massaqiou was gonna bring his "A" game this
year and just wreck havoc on secondaries.
Some even when on to claim the Browns had a "Top 5" o-line.
According to some Rucker and Parker were gonna be this dangerous duo at RDE.
The difference between me and a lot of you is that, I'm not enamored with "average"
I see average up and down this roster.
Of there are some players that can be truly game changers and have Pro Bowl potential. Richardson,Schwartz, Gordon, Winn..maybe Benjamin.
But there are players like Sheard,Little,Hardesty that haven't justified their draft selections.
As far as players like Hagg and Skrine. I think they flat can't get it done on this level. Hagg was handed a starting job and found himself on the inactive list most of the year. Skrine gets abused on the field more than over weight 5th grader in dodgeball. why should I like them?
Phil Taylor when has he made play behind the LOS this year?
I just look at the rest of the AFC North and see very few of the current Browns that could start for them.
you guys can call me all the names you want. I refuse to be satisfied with average and below average. and that makes the majority of the Browns roster.
TL;DR
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Quote:
Quote:
The difference between me and a lot of you is that
We know how not to push enter after every six words.
Are you writing poetry? I don't get it.
I honestly don't think he knows what a paragraph is. I wonder if he knows that what he writes is almost as annoying as how it's formatted?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I think he knows and does it anyway to add to his trollness.
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I've been disappointed in both players. Richardson seems very injury prone and I doubt he is playing in 3 years. Weeden doesn't seem to have very good pocket awareness, doesn't find throwing lanes to avoid getting his passes batted down and overall doesn't see the field well which is why he has to lock onto receivers. I'm not sure if these are things typical of rookies and will improve or not. I am hopeful. I am very happy with the other picks in the draft that found the field this year especially Gordon whom I think will be a stud someday.
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You seem to embrace the past on purpose, picking the bad and ignoring the good progress we made in depth, in talent, and in potential most of all. I think a bunch of where we are is not acceptable, but certainly can improve. Players in the top half of the NFL setting records for us are not the "average" you mention repeatedly. And if we did achieve this coveted "average" as a team and a franchise, we would never be where I hope we will be. And you have tomorrow locked up because of past shortcomings, it will al be bad (like shooting for "average" as to where IDEALISTICALLY the bar should be set in your own words and judgment) as inescapably bad. I don't buy it, and I don't accept it. We have some people here who can see where we are going. Not you apparently. I am mad, frustrated, and disappointed. But as a fan, I want the best, look for the best in my Brownies. Not sure what you are up to; I see little point to this other than to read yourself. OK. But I hope there is more for you as a fan than that. Really. 
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
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Quote:
I all heard in the off season how much this team was going
to be improved with a infusion of Weeden and Richardson.
oh the Browns were gonna be a 7-9 team at worst.
Lol. Few if any here said the Browns would be 7-9 at worst. Now you're just making crap up.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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Quote:
Quote:
I all heard in the off season how much this team was going
to be improved with a infusion of Weeden and Richardson.
oh the Browns were gonna be a 7-9 team at worst.
Lol. Few if any here said the Browns would be 7-9 at worst. Now you're just making crap up.
Most said 2-3 wins.
And really. Lets say we finish 5-11. That's a two game (Philly, Giants, Colts, Dallas, etc) difference.
It's depressing to think how close we actually were to a playoff spot.
Which in turns proves how much the bottom half of the AFC sucks.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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All Pro
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you know how many years I have heard "the Browns are going into the right direction?"
I've been hearing potential ever since 2001.
I expect Haslam and whoever the next GM/HC to get this team to the playoffs sooner than later. Not give the "5 year song and dance plan"
Heckert and Holmgrens plan was not to win in 2012.
thank god 2012 is almost over.
another double digit losing season. and a season where the opening day QB doesn't finish the season.
another season minus a 1,000 rusher, 1,000 WR, or a double digit sack producer.
finish t
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Joined: Jan 2010
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065 Likes: 1 |
Quote:
Heckert and Holmgrens plan was not to win in 2012.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Joined: Jun 2011
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All Pro
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All Pro
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don't fool yourself. There was very little ambition to win the North this year.
In 2013 I expect this franchise to win 8 games minimum.
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065 Likes: 1
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065 Likes: 1 |
Quote:
don't fool yourself. There was very little ambition to win the North this year.
In 2013 I expect this franchise to win 8 games minimum.
This isn't the NBA. You don't get better by losing. You get fired.
Everyone employed tries to win every game. (Barring certain situations, Sucking for Luck) because not winning gets you fired.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,477 Likes: 162
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,477 Likes: 162 |
Quote:
Heckert and Holmgrens plan was not to win in 2012.
So when Holmgren said 6 wins was unacceptable he meant he wanted less than 6 wins?
<><
#gmstrong
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Joined: Feb 2008
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Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
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Quote:
Quote:
Heckert and Holmgrens plan was not to win in 2012.
I didn't go back and read all these posts, but of the last few, I have to agree with Kendall on most of these.
And, I was one of those that actually did predict 2-3 wins. I'm surprised that they won 5 (and they probably shouldn't have) but it is what it is. Let's say that they win on Sunday and the team is 6-10. Is that indicative of improvement, really?
Let's be honest here, the team is, in all frankness, no better than it was last year and probably in a worse position in terms of development.
It's now likely that the entire coaching staff will be jettisoned. If there is anyone that is held over, I'll be shocked. The new coaches probably won't use the same evaluation of the players that the previous ones did and many of those that are considered locks for their jobs could be jettisoned by the start of next season.
We'll have to see what the next regime does, but I'm certain that there are players that are under contract and whom most would expect to be back with the team that will be gone from the team next year. I'll give you an example. Brandon Weeden is probably not the starting QB next year. It's even possible that he's not on the team. Colt McCoy is probably gone. D'Qwell Jackson isn't safe - especially if they draft his replacement.
I fully expect that there are a number of players that will be off-loaded during the off-season for either other players or draft picks or both. My take is that the new regime will try to get as many players to fit their schemes as possible and to acquire as many draft picks as they can muster to draft players they want.
I know the arguments about having so many draft picks that you can't reasonably sign them all. That's not even the point. Acquiring draft picks allow you to take players who you will have exclusive rights to for at least the following year and for as long as you and the player agree to terms, as long as the length of the contract or until the player is released. You don't have to fight for them in the UDFA market.
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Joined: Feb 2008
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Hall of Famer
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Let's just wait to see what happens during the off-season.
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Joined: Jan 2010
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Jan 2010
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You said they'd win 2 games. They can possibly win 6.
But haven't improved? Really? How does that make sense?
4 wins last year, lets say 5/6 this year, Kendall says 8 next year.
Isn't that the DEFINITION of improvement? Getting better each year?
I also think you're going a little far with your theory on us getting rid of players. DQnis a Pro Bowler (Alternate) you don't just dump a guy like that. The only drastic change on offense player wise could be QB. And some might argue that's for the better.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 49,990 Likes: 362 |
I said that I thought that we would win between 6-8 games, with us having a stronger 2nd half than 1st.
We have won at least 5.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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