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If you got better by losing in the NBA, the Cavs would have won the NBA Championship. They didn't. They got Dion Waiters.
The Cavs suck because they chose poorly. Dion Waiters wasn't even a starter for Syracuse when he was selected with the Cavs first pick of the 2012 NBA draft.
The Browns suck because they chose poorly. You don't draft a 28-y.o. rookie QB and expect good things to happen. Well, not if you're sane, you don't. That was pure foolishness. You don't pay big money to a return specialist. You don't trade away picks to move up 1 spot in the draft to select a player that would have been available to you if you had stood pat where you were. That's how you build a team that sucks and will continue to suck for years without end. You build through the draft (with sound decisions) and you don't waste your resources (draft picks) simply because you have a large number of them.
Minnesota is on the verge of making the playoffs and they were slated to draft one spot ahead of the Browns in the 2012 NFL Draft. They finagled a trade with the Browns that got them three additional draft picks. They got WR/KR - Jarius Wright, S - Robert Blanton, and K - Blair Walsh. Not to pick bones here, but Walsh is a Pro-Bowler in his first season and holds the NFL record for most FGs of 50-yards or more in a season (9).
These reasons are why the Browns suck and Holmgren is already gone, and Heckert and Shurmur are about to follow him out the door in less than a week.
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You said they'd win 2 games. They can possibly win 6.
Okay, you go believing that. If Shurmur is the head coach next season, I'll listen. If Heckert keeps his job, I'll listen. My guess is that they're both gone before the end of the day on Monday.
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But haven't improved? Really? How does that make sense?
Because I've watched every single game. And I said that I'm surprised that they've won as many as they have. The Browns are currently slated to draft 7th. I guess by those standards, they were slated to draft 4th last year and 'improved' in that sense, but it still remains to be seen where they eventually end up.
And, if Putzburgh had anything to play for this week, there would be very little chance the Browns could win.
So, don't go fooling yourself and try to out-think Pat Shurmur.
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4 wins last year, lets say 5/6 this year, Kendall says 8 next year.
4 wins, 5 wins. That's par for the course. Kendall wants 8 next year and I told him that we should see what happens during the off-season. Let's not get ahead of ourselves. I think it's reasonable to think that the Browns should be able to win 8 games but we don't know what we're going to do in the off-season and what our opponents will do in the off-season.
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Isn't that the DEFINITION of improvement? Getting better each year?
Have you looked at the recent W-L records of the Browns? Here, let me help you!
link
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I also think you're going a little far with your theory on us getting rid of players. DQ is a Pro Bowler (Alternate) you don't just dump a guy like that. The only drastic change on offense player wise could be QB. And some might argue that's for the better.
You might get rid of him because he's getting older and losing a step and he still has some trade value. You certainly can get rid of anyone (and I mean anyone) on the roster that you can get what you think is top value for that player.
I once stated that I thought that the average Browns fan could do a better job than Holmgren / Heckert / Shurmur. I was probably wrong and the average Browns fan would have been fired just the same as these bunch of morons. Granted, only Holmgren is actually gone from the premises in Berea, but I have no doubt that the rest will follow.
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I said that I thought that we would win between 6-8 games, with us having a stronger 2nd half than 1st.
We have won at least 5.
We won a few games that we had no reason winning (Cincy #2, San Diego, Putzburgh #1). We also barely lost some games we had no reason being in (Philly, Indy, Dallas) That's not to say that the team had improved but that our opponents played down to our level. Move the three wins we have that we had no legitimate reason to expect to win prior to the season into the loss column and we have 2 wins. The only game of the group that we barely lost which you could argue we should have had a shot is the Indy game and that's because they won just 2 games last year.
You folks are putting on the blinders if you think this team is ACTUALLY improved from last season.
Let's take a look at the current slate of 2013 Browns opponents.
Home: BallsNoMore, Cincinnati, Putzburgh, Buffalo, Miami, Chicago, Detroit,
AFC South*
Away: BallsNoMore, Cincinnati, Putzburgh, New England, N.Y. Jets, Green Bay,
Minnesota, AFC West*
* Team from that division that finishes in the same spot in the 2012 standings.
Based on what you know right now, what would you expect our record to be next season? The home game against the AFC South will be against Jacksonville and the away game against the AFC West will be against Kansas City. Those two teams will have the #1 and #2 draft picks no matter what happens this week. Only who selects where is yet to be determined.
So, with your best guess, right now, with the current opponents, what will be the Browns record in 2013?
Yeah, it's stupid to ask. There are going to be so many changes for all NFL teams over that span that it's impossible to tell right now. What is apparent though, is that the 2012 Cleveland Browns are really no better than the 2011 Cleveland Browns.
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I told him that we should see what happens during the off-season.
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Based on what you know right now, what would you expect our record to be next season?
Same poster.
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The Cavs suck because they chose poorly. Dion Waiters wasn't even a starter for Syracuse when he was selected with the Cavs first pick of the 2012 NBA draft.
Just a quick comment because I find this irritating. Dion was Syracuse best player.
Do you think Manu Ginobli and James Harden suck? They were bench guys.
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And that's not even the point.
Because a team like the Thunder. Who sucked and got KD. And traded away EVERYONE so that they'd suck for a couple years, were just in the NBA finals.
And THAT wasn't even my point.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Hate to go off topic....but Dion wasn't a bad pick, he can score.
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I disagree that we "didn't even belong" in some games.
We were in games all season long. We gave up a few late game drives to lose a few games. We have a really young team. The defense played extremely well at times. They had major problems in the past 2 games, against very good opponents, and with an ever growing injury list on defense.
When we had a healthy team, we played close games against almost everyone we played. We don't yet have the depth to handle a lot of injuries, and once w got guys like JMJ and Ward hurt, we had no one to replace them.
It almost seems like you don't see improvement anywhere with this team. Last year we scored 218 points for the whole year. We are at 292 right now. I don't know if we'll break 300 with the 3rd string QB and all of our other injuries, but we have definitely improved a great deal in this regard.
You ask me what I expect next year .... and when I look at that schedule, if we don't blow the whole thing up, I would expect 9 or so wins. That schedule looks like a fairly easy schedule ... and with another year in the league (and maybe the system) for our more inexperienced players, I would expect a fair amount of improvement.
If we blow things up ..... well, then I have no idea.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I told him that we should see what happens during the off-season.
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Based on what you know right now, what would you expect our record to be next season?
Same poster.
Only because the person I was replying to had stated they had figured 5-6 wins this season. A pure a prophecy as any Nostradamus out there so I was just following up.
Clearly missed my entire point and taking things out of context. But, whatever makes you feel good about yourself.
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Just a quick comment because I find this irritating. Dion was Syracuse best player.
Dude, he played at the local university here. He wasn't all that and a bag of chips but he was taken by the Cavs with their first selection. And to say that he was the best player on the Orange(men) is a matter of opinion.
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Do you think Manu Ginobli and James Harden suck? They were bench guys.
They went to established teams with good players. And Harden wasn't a bench player in college. Dion Waiters was.
For the record, Manu Ginobili was drafted in the 2nd round.
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Hate to go off topic....but Dion wasn't a bad pick, he can score.
And the Cavs are 7-24 and Waiters is scoring 14.6 ppg. Not bad, but considering that he's the starting SG on the team and averaging 32 minutes a game, he really should be doing better.
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Yet how many other rookies are doing better?
Rookies take some degree of time to acclimate to the pro game, especially at certain positions .... and in certain sports.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I told him that we should see what happens during the off-season.
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Based on what you know right now, what would you expect our record to be next season?
Same poster.
Only because the person I was replying to had stated they had figured 5-6 wins this season. A pure a prophecy as any Nostradamus out there so I was just following up.
Clearly missed my entire point and taking things out of context. But, whatever makes you feel good about yourself.
We have 5 wins. We play one more game.
Saying well have 5 or 6 wins this year makes someone Nostradamus?
Uh. Ok. 
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Yet how many other rookies are doing better?
Rookies take some degree of time to acclimate to the pro game, especially at certain positions .... and in certain sports.
I'd really rather not get into this discussion again but are we talking about Weeden, Richardson or Waiters? Weeden - who doesn't have NFL-level talent or Richardson - who does but shouldn't have been traded up to get and wasn't worth even the 4th overall pick in the NFL draft (yes, I know, he was drafted 3rd but the Browns held the #4 pick before the trade up) or Dion Waiters - who does have NBA-level talent but shouldn't have been picked 4th overall in the NBA draft.
The Weeden pick was a wasted pick that I think led directly to Holmgren's firing and will lead to Heckert's firing. Shurmur just isn't smart enough to be a concessions jockey in an NFL stadium, much less a head coach at the NFL level. Shurmur is proof that football smarts aren't genetic.
I also think that even the Richardson pick is going to weigh in on the firing of Heckert and Shurmur. Not because of the pick, but because of the picks that were used to trade up one spot to get him. The Browns front office was so put out by the Robert Griffin fiasco that they overpaid to move up one spot for a player that would have been available for them at #4 in ANY case. Minnesota wasn't going to take him and TB wasn't going to jump us to get Richardson, and even if they did, Doug Martin (who I preferred anyway) was available near the end of the first round.
It's the combined debacle of the 2012 NFL draft and the poor coaching that's costing these people their jobs. And if you think it's going to stop with the coaching and not extend to the players, you'd better be prepared to be disappointed that your player was released, traded, or just loses their job to another player.
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and even if they did, Doug Martin (who I preferred anyway) was available near the end of the first round.
Well at least we know now your opinion on Trent is unbiased. 
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Yes, because I fully expected no more than 2 wins, and would have been shocked if the team had achieved 3 wins. They've actually surpassed my expectations and met yours.
However, thinking that this team is improved based on 5 wins (with 4 or 5 wins being the norm over the past half-decade) is a Nostradamus. Without knowing what changes are coming, you would probably be safe in saying that 4 or 5 (or even 6) wins is likely.
I fully expected the Browns to be worse than last year with Weeden at the helm. By comparison to McCoy's performance last year and Weeden's this year, the Browns were actually worse. McCoy had less offensive talent around him to help. So with a first round RB, a first round QB, a second round RT, another second round WR, the Browns managed to best last year's win total by 1 game. Congratulations Browns fans! Our team sucks again!
If we win this final game against Putzburgh, it'll only be due to them throwing the game. If there are starting players that are actually close to meeting incentive bonuses and get the chance to see playing time, we'll lose in a blowout.
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I didn't predict 5-6 wins.
I was pointing out we had 4 wins last year. Can get to 6 this year.
And then Kendall said 8 net year.
4-6-8. Seems like improvement to me.
Plus there's the eye test. You talk about how bad we were last year. Even as inconsistent as we were this year. We were 10x better on offense and much better on defense.
Just because someone notices improvements doesn't mean yet are "settling" for mediocrity. It's ok to talk about improvements while also saying they can still improve.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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and even if they did, Doug Martin (who I preferred anyway) was available near the end of the first round.
Well at least we know now your opinion on Trent is unbiased.
I actually like Trent Richardson as a RB. I simply didn't want to draft him with the #3 (or even the #4) overall pick and I certainly wouldn't have given up what the Browns did to move up one spot to draft him.
I was actually an advocate for trading back and getting additional selections and getting better value at those selections.
With that said, I wasn't unhappy that we have Richardson on the team, just not a fan of what we spent in terms of draft picks to acquire him. I felt we could have gotten Doug Martin later and gotten just as much production out of him than we would have gotten out of Richardson. Turns out, Tampa Bay got more production out of Martin than we got out of Richardson at a much better value. They swapped 4th rounders (#101) with Denver (#126) and gave Denver their 2nd rounder (#36) in exchange for the 31st pick in the first round.
Tampa Bay actually has improved their team though. They increased their win total from 4 to 6 with one meaningless game for Atlanta to go. If Atlanta packs it in and gives TB another win, they'll have gone from 4 wins to 7.
You folks need to take your blinders off. The Browns actually REGRESSED this year over last and did so with better talent offensively (except at QB) than last year's team. The problem was the Holmgren / Heckert / Shurmur triumvirate.
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So increasing a win total only means something if its not the Browns?
Ok then.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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You're still counting on six wins this year and that Kendall's expectations of 8 wins next year to occur.
I don't. I don't think we win against Putzburgh unless they pack it in. We have no reason to expect to win this week and I'm not sure why Kendall expects 8 wins next season.
I guess that if we are improving, then we should expect that Shurmur will remain the head coach again next season despite what we saw of his coaching abilities?
We are 10x better on offense? Really? I didn't see that with my eyes. I think that the team regressed offensively in final year of the Shurmur disaster. This is true despite better talent at key positions (except QB) and an actual OC brought in to help ease Shurmur's load.
If you think that the team improved, I'd hate to be an employee of yours. I'd have my résumé out there all over the place because I'd see your company going out of business.
You say that the team has improved offensively? Maybe at RB and WR but not at the QB position. The QB is your field general and the brains of your offense.
Can you honestly tell me that Brandon Weeden is a smarter QB than Colt McCoy? If you say it, I'll question YOUR intelligence. If you admit that McCoy is smarter than Weeden, then I question why you support starting Weeden over McCoy and taking it further, why would you defend the selection of Weeden in last year's draft? I can understand fans wanting to believe that their team didn't have morons in the front office and on the sidelines, but sometimes you just have to admit it and that they screwed up royally. It's okay to call out your team when they screw up. If you don't do so, then I have to then question whether you really are a fan of the team.
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No, but it doesn't necessarily mean that your team is actually improving.
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We know how not to push enter after every six words.
Are you writing poetry? I don't get it.
Its an obscure, highly-stylized form of prose / poetry called "Kendall-Ku". 
Just kidding Kendall, write however you want. 
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Wow. Questioning fanhood? Why? Because I can watch Weeden and know that there are NFL throws that he can make that Colt can only DREAM of completing?
Was Weeden great this year? No of course not.
But do you seriously REMEMBER last year? The only reason we won 4 games is because we ran into 2 0-fers (Indy, Miami) Seattle in one of the WORST games I've ever seen (which we won due to a phantom PR call) and a Jags team that chose to ignore its best player (MJD)
We were in every game this year up until last week. When injuries and Peyton Manning being Peyton Manning caught up with us.
It must suck to be negative about everything.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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This team has improved in every hard stat AND by eye. Sorry to break it to you, but that's reality. You can chose to live in LaLa Land because your boy Colt doesn't have it, but you're getting to a point where your apparent Colt-love turns into blind hatred towards everyone post-Colt
Weeden the rook has outplayed Colt the 2nd year player in pretty much every meaningful QB category and Colt's "intelligence" and "toughness" are still incredibly overrated. If he was that smart, we wouldn't have to dumb down the Offense last season, something Weeden has not needed, though struggling with it and pouting off in the media about it. For a smart guy Colt still has no clue WHEN to get rid of the ball as seen the entire last season and in this last game where he was sacked in every 4th/5th drop back
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Sometimes I wonder if you actually believe some of the stuff you type...
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No, but it doesn't necessarily mean that your team is actually improving.
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Tampa Bay actually has improved their team though. They increased their win total from 4 to 6 with one meaningless game for Atlanta to go. If Atlanta packs it in and gives TB another win, they'll have gone from 4 wins to 7.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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For a smart guy Colt still has no clue WHEN to get rid of the ball as seen the entire last season and in this last game where he was sacked in every 4th/5th drop back
Now that's a flat-out lie, and you should be ashamed of yourself.
Colt knew his team needed a breather so he knew when to throw a couple of worm-balls intentionally 
What a dope. After admitting he intentionally chucked a few in the ground he should be permanently benched to 3rd string. (Unless that was just an excuse for throwing some unintentional worm-balls because, you know, his accuracy was never great to begin with).
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Just kidding Kendall, write however you want.
Exactly. Write however you want, because I wont' read it anyway. 
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I dunno. Colt seems a lot better than Weeden at throwing passes directly into the ground.
Don't forget the patented "Center Screen"
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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its okay. if we all thought or typed the same it would be very drab and boring around here.
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I don't know how to break this to you, but when you're always 4-12 or 5-11, its pretty drab and boring no matter how you write. Groundhog Day: its not just for February in Cleveland.
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wasn't Weeden projected to out play McCoy this year? I mean for him to out perform McCoy is that really saying much?
But Weeden still could only generate 5 wins with upgrades at RT,RB,WR and with a full off season. McCoy produced 4 with alot less to work with and no off season.
and its not like Weeden blew McCoy out of the water when it comes down to numbers...McCoy had a better rating (which isn't saying much when its in the 70s)
had a better TD to INT.
Weeden had a better YPA but not by much.
what is evident is that the new management coming in isn't sold on McCoy or Weeden.
McCoy has played his last down as a Brown. Weeden hasn't overwhelmed anyone with his lack with fire and leadership and inability to put the ball in the endzone
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what is evident is that the new management coming in isn't sold on McCoy or Weeden.
Can you
please
tell me how this
is
evident?
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Don't forget the patented "Center Screen"
Now that's a play where his smartness and toughness combined very well: 4th down, 1 score down in opponent's territory and he scare-throws at his C's "you know where"....very smart decision and so tough to hang in there for the best possible shot at getting the 1st down
To me Colt always looked incredibly skittish, permanently taking his eyes from downfield, running around like a chicken...that's neither smart nor tough, that's scared and clueless.
Weeden isn't very smart or tough at all too, AVG at best (ok for a rook though) but Colt doesn't come close. At least Weeden keeps his eyes downfield a lot and he has thrown a ton of balls knowing he'll get hit. He has trouble going through his progresions, but at least he tries. He isn't fast leaner there and if he doesn'T improve here it could be his ticket out of the NFL, we'll see.
Weeden scans the field from deep to short...sometimes too fast, sometimes too late but Colt often even looked to dump it off from the get go...he never read deep to short. If he read deep, his next move was RUN and improvise from there (dump off or keep running), never trusting his pocket, always being skittish even without anyone near him...typing this makes me remember how terrible this dude was. People really need to re-watch all Colt McCoy games if they think that Weeden dumped off too mny passes this season, lol
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I would have hoped that if they were truly believers in Weeds that they'd have said more than they are continuing to evaluate him.
McCoy is old news. He got one quick chance to impress his new bosses and burned them to the ground by admitting he tanked a pass or two just to get a breather.
Way to make a good first impression.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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wasn't Weeden projected to out play McCoy this year? I mean for him to out perform McCoy is that really saying much?
No, and I always said that. It's not an accolade for Weeden here, but I can't believe it's even wortha discussion either, so other "things" are at work here, which I'm fighting on here from the moment Weeden was drafted. Agenda, favouritism etc
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But Weeden still could only generate 5 wins with upgrades at RT,RB,WR and with a full off season. McCoy produced 4 with alot less to work with and no off season.
RB wasn't an upgrade, I've shown that before and our running game has REGRESSED as the season went on and it never was any good or consistent to begin with. RT and WR started off BAD, but improved a lot...oh, and look...we started off 0-5 and went 5-5 when the receiving and blocking started to improve. With any kind of running game we would have also probably won the DAL game, but that's another bone to chew
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and its not like Weeden blew McCoy out of the water when it comes down to numbers...McCoy had a better rating (which isn't saying much when its in the 70s) had a better TD to INT.
I've posted their game situations splits in another thread and it got quiet quick and it only backed off what everyone should have seen to begin with....if you can't, it's my fault even debating this as you probably deserve QBs like Colt McCoy if you can't see the apparent upgrade
and being a rook and 2nd year player IS a big difference too as many QBs have their worst QBr as a rook. Most QBs came close to their career AVGs in their 2nd season, so that's where Weeden will make or break himself as NFL QB....Colt already failed, let's move on please. Also, 31 other NFL teams not even offering a decent 3rd day pick is all you need to know about his league rep
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465 |
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RB wasn't an upgrade, I've shown that before and our running game has REGRESSED as the season went on and it never was any good or consistent to begin with
If you want to pretend that Richardson isn't an upgrade, you can have at it.
But he is.
Now, if you want to argue that he's been disappointing in relation to where he was picked, what was given up for him, etc., that's a conversation worth having. He hasn't exactly wowed me, either.
But trying to say with a straight face that TR isn't an upgrade over Hillis/Hardesty/Obi is kind of ludicrous. He's most definitely an upgrade.
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Check the numbers, he isn't...I've been there done that
Is he more talented? Sure, but that "talent" didn't mean better production this season
edit: ok, I searched my post....it was before last week's game, but that didn't change much even though he had a good one
2011 RBs (16 games):
Hillis+Hardesty+Obi....322 carries, 3.69ypc, 1187yds
leader: Hillis: 161 carries, 3.65ypc, 587yds
2012 RBs (through 14 games):
TRich+Hardesty+Obi.....330 carries, 3.71ypc, 1224yds
leader: TRich: 258 carries, 3.48ypc, 897yds...edit: now 267, 950yds, 3.56yds
TRich is "as good/bad" as Hillis in 2011, that's reality and that's what I saw from sunday to sunday too
So, from a QB's perspective, the running game was as "helpful" as last season, not exactly what I'd call an "upgrade" and we've run MORE this season
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465 |
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Check the numbers, he isn't...I've been there done that
Is he more talented? Sure, but that "talent" didn't mean better production this season
I did.
We're barely up in YPC and 20+ runs ... down slightly on fumbles ... 76 yards less than last year ... tripled our TD's ...
That is improvement. Miniscule, perhaps, but it's improvement, and Richardson is a more promising back than any of the crew we had last year.
(Not to mention, if you want to play the stats game, one could make the same argument about the QB position.  )
I know you want to bend over backwards to defend Weeden and stick it to Richardson, but our running game is in a better place with him on the team.
I'm not exactly sold on the guy, and I have some serious concerns about him, but he's proven he can be a solid goal line back and a bruiser, and has shown glimpses of the elite traits he was supposed to come in with. I don't like the way he dances, and his instincts have been atrocious at times, and we gave up too much to get him, but your need to make him out to be a bust is somewhat baffling.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,587
Legend
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Legend
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So increasing a win total only means something if its not the Browns?
Ok then.
Winning more games, scoring more points .... far more big plays in the passing game .......... yep ... definitely worse.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum The bigger gamble: Richardson or
Weeden?
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