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I hope I dont jinks this guy bye posting but just had to say something... We havent talked much about him all year, Which is good for a OT... Dont get me wrong, I love Trent, Josh is the real deal.....but we got a steal and to me the top of our 2012 draft class has been Mitchell Schwartz.. Add a guard or two via FA or Draft and were solid up front..... Love JT....Alex and now Schwartz....for me you never have enough OL or DL players, Mitchell solidified our line, all last year we cried about a right tackle....Well guys we got a good soon to become a great one... Mitchell....Great job this year...keep working hard....we might not talk about ya....but we know & appriciate you being there...Heckart...Great pick... 
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Definitely a great pick.
I remember hearing all of the national talking heads talk about how Heckert left better talent on the board to select him. I don't think that too many would say that today.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I questioned the pick when we made it, but the kid seems to have had a pretty good year... I agree with you as well... can never have too many good linemen...
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Long term, probably the smartest pick of the draft.. But the most dangerous that worked out well had to be Gordon.. wow,, that right there was a deal
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Long term, probably the smartest pick of the draft.. But the most dangerous that worked out well had to be Gordon.. wow,, that right there was a deal
Gordon turned out to be a great pick! All-in-all this draft wasn't horrible... I still have hopes that Richardson will be a pro-bowl running back once he gets healthy and we have a coach that knows how to use him...
Weeden will make or break this draft... I sitl think he can be a servicable QB, but we'll see...
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File him under unsung heroes. And for him to have Thomas as a model and mentor. A stael, and priceless opportunity for a rookie. Make the most of it big fella.
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
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He has done well all year. Think about how he'll look in 2 years when he really knows what he's doing. Great Pick!!!
I think Heckert has done ahelluva job bringing in young talent the last few years.... i hope he dont get the axe over floppn with Weeden.
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Add a guard or two via FA or Draft and were solid up front.....
That's all which is stopping our line from going to the front of the line in terms of rank.
Schwartz has had some rookie moments, but he hasn't been the real problem. He's played well.
I see this line in this light:
Thomas continues to be the best LT in the game, but only because the league is so heavily dependent on passing. There isn't a guy who has quicker feet and a quicker set than Thomas. However, he's a shield-blocker in the run-game, nothing more. If we were ranking LT's in terms of run-blocking, I'd be hard-pressed to put him in the top-10.
Mack is a very good center. Yeah, he made a pro-bowl, but he's not a top-3 center to me. His pass-blocking is very good, but like Thomas he's not a great run-blocker. That isn't saying he's bad, he's just another shield-blocker.
So if your two cornerstone guys aren't that strong in the run-game, you gotta make up for it somewhere else. That means our guards aren't doing the trick.
Lauvao made strides as a pass-blocker, but he's slow to shed off of combo-blocks and find guys at the second level. His lack of balance showed up on the coaches/all-22 film, which causes him to get pushed around. This was his 3rd year. There isn't much upside left with him. Serviceable starter? Serviceable, yes, but that's about it. He's right on par with the next guy I'll mention...
John Greco. When Pinky went out, you KNOW we all went "Oh, *#&!" But that never materialized. Greco has been virtually the same guy as Lauvao, in that he's filled right in as a pass-blocker, but lacks punch as a run-blocker. The truth is I haven't watched him as much on the Coaches film as other guys like Weeden and 'Rich, but what I have seen showed me he's a slightly better player than Pinky. Again, how many guys can we afford to have on this line that lack punch and a mean-streak?
Pinky doesn't look bad because of his play. He looked bad because when he was replaced by a perennial backup the line didn't lose a beat. Again, this is another non-mauler who has made strides as a quick pass-blocker but lacks punch in the run-game.
Notice the trend here?
The great fear for us fans as a whole is going to revolve around being afraid to shake-up the unit. We've been so bad in the pass-blocking area for so many years that people will fear dismantling pieces who contributed to the improvement. But the sad fact is unless we find a guard (or two) who can bring a mean-streak to this attack, we're not likely to be that much more improved next year in the run-game.
IMO Pinky is the weakest of the three guards. I'm not going to sit here and tell you I believe he'll be better as a right-guard because I haven't watched enough of him over-and-over again to form an opinion. What I do believe is that we have 3 guys who are nearly the same guy, so keeping two of them while throwing the dice on a TRUE mauler, either in free agency or the draft, is the way we have to go to get better.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Maybe Saban brings Chance Warmack along with him.
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Add a guard or two via FA or Draft and were solid up front.....
That's all which is stopping our line from going to the front of the line in terms of rank.
Schwartz has had some rookie moments, but he hasn't been the real problem. He's played well.
I see this line in this light:
Thomas continues to be the best LT in the game, but only because the league is so heavily dependent on passing. There isn't a guy who has quicker feet and a quicker set than Thomas. However, he's a shield-blocker in the run-game, nothing more. If we were ranking LT's in terms of run-blocking, I'd be hard-pressed to put him in the top-10.
Mack is a very good center. Yeah, he made a pro-bowl, but he's not a top-3 center to me. His pass-blocking is very good, but like Thomas he's not a great run-blocker. That isn't saying he's bad, he's just another shield-blocker.
So if your two cornerstone guys aren't that strong in the run-game, you gotta make up for it somewhere else. That means our guards aren't doing the trick.
Lauvao made strides as a pass-blocker, but he's slow to shed off of combo-blocks and find guys at the second level. His lack of balance showed up on the coaches/all-22 film, which causes him to get pushed around. This was his 3rd year. There isn't much upside left with him. Serviceable starter? Serviceable, yes, but that's about it. He's right on par with the next guy I'll mention...
John Greco. When Pinky went out, you KNOW we all went "Oh, *#&!" But that never materialized. Greco has been virtually the same guy as Lauvao, in that he's filled right in as a pass-blocker, but lacks punch as a run-blocker. The truth is I haven't watched him as much on the Coaches film as other guys like Weeden and 'Rich, but what I have seen showed me he's a slightly better player than Pinky. Again, how many guys can we afford to have on this line that lack punch and a mean-streak?
Pinky doesn't look bad because of his play. He looked bad because when he was replaced by a perennial backup the line didn't lose a beat. Again, this is another non-mauler who has made strides as a quick pass-blocker but lacks punch in the run-game.
Notice the trend here?
The great fear for us fans as a whole is going to revolve around being afraid to shake-up the unit. We've been so bad in the pass-blocking area for so many years that people will fear dismantling pieces who contributed to the improvement. But the sad fact is unless we find a guard (or two) who can bring a mean-streak to this attack, we're not likely to be that much more improved next year in the run-game.
IMO Pinky is the weakest of the three guards. I'm not going to sit here and tell you I believe he'll be better as a right-guard because I haven't watched enough of him over-and-over again to form an opinion. What I do believe is that we have 3 guys who are nearly the same guy, so keeping two of them while throwing the dice on a TRUE mauler, either in free agency or the draft, is the way we have to go to get better.
I think having a real FB will make the run game much much better next year.. When u go w a set that has a FB in it. The defense is putting an extra man in the box, making it harder to get to second lvl blocks. I do agree with you that Greco came in and performed, but was just solid/average, I thought Lavaou played way better this year. I'd want to keep him... dont remember anyone all year complaining about his play like the last 2 years. If pinky cant come back we definitely need another G either in FA or the draft. I say do both. Grab a vet and draft G mid/late rounder. Plug in play the vet now and develop another for the future.
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Browns took an OG in the 5th round last year - Ryan Miller, 6-7, 321, Colorado. Here's CBS Sports analysis of Miller:
Pass blocking: Possesses tackle size and strength, along with natural bend. Strong punch knocks back or re-routes rushers. Tough anchor, hard to move against bull rushes. Owns lateral agility to help tackle if uncovered, hustles around the pocket if defender could get secondary rush. Inconsistent extending his arms initially, allows rushers to get into his body. Fair recovery if shed, though, moves his feet and uses his length to knock rushers off their path. Run blocking: Powerful run blocker capable of moving tackles out of the hole with his upper body. Stays low despite his height to get leverage, moves his feet to push the pile or maintain the line of scrimmage. Agile enough to block on the move, whether coaches move the pocket or using his frame and quick feet to ensure defender is cleared on zone plays. Adds himself to piles to push them forward. Extends his arms during the play to exercise his dominance. Relies on his size to stop his man, needs to get his hands into their jersey to prevent them from swimming past or ripping off. Pulling/trapping: Even with tackle size, Miller has nimble enough feet to trap inside. Uses length and agility to take out targets in his direct path, but also flexibility and vision to adjust to inside targets in close quarters. His chest presents big target for NFL defenders to hit, and will create a pile in the hole if tripped up due to his height. Initial Quickness: Quick off the snap for his size. Even if allowing some penetration in pass protection, moves his feet and extends arms to keep defender from turning towards the passer. Hooks inside defenders on run plays to prevent backside tackles. Effective combo blocker, owning strength to chip down in either direction and agility to reach linebackers. Needs to get his hands up more quickly into his man's jersey or NFL defenders will beat him initially. Downfield: Effective reaching the second level and beyond as a run blocker. Easily directs safeties and linebackers directly in his path out of running lanes. Used as personal pass protector for quarterbacks outside the pocket and in front of screens. Lacks elite change of direction to grab smaller targets but gives effort, gets down quickly to take them out if his way. Intangibles: Versatile player with experience at right tackle and guard. Works hard in the weight room and practice field. Received medical redshirt in 2008 after breaking his fibula (leg). No known character or off-field issues. --Chad Reuter
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Assuming he's not injured or inactive, I wouldn't mind seeing some of Miller tomorrow at RG. Maybe one of the pieces is already on the roster.
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As a draft nerd all I can tell you is that all of Mack, Lauvao, Schwartz, Pinky, Miller and Greco were stronger run blockers than pass blockers in College. Pretty much every scouting report I've read on those guys said that. Thomas was pretty much the only better pass blocker when drafted
It could be scheme, it could be emphasis on pass blocking and it could be poor running but don't even try to insinuate that we should draft more maulers because that's all that Heckert has done. Read their profiles out of College...did they all of a sudden forget how to run block? or worked so much on pass blocking that they slacked it on run blocks? I don't know the answer to that, but I know what kind of OL prospects we drafted in the past 3 drafts. It'd be a strange coincidence if they ALL forgot how to run block collectively, so I'd look more at the coaches and runners for reasons when it comes to poor running as the talent to get it doen IS there up front
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It's funny, man...people only complain about guards when they whiff on a pass-block and get the QB killed, not when they can't open a hole for a running back.  That's why there hasn't been as much complaining about our guards this year.
I do agree that a real fullback will help. On that note, to me, a more critical component is going to be a true #1 TE who is a good all-around player. We have Watson who can't block but can catch. We have Smith who is the best blocker of the bunch but that doesn't mean he's good. He's not. Cameron is the worst blocker of the bunch, and hasn't shown too much as a receiver. Finding a #1 guy like a Heath Miller would do the trick better than a FB IMO.
Dj, if you're looking at the scouting reports instead of their current play, that's living in the past while trying to analyze the present.
If you really think about it, how many guards or tackles that go in the first three rounds ever have scouting reports that say "weak run-blocker, lacks push" etc. Historically, the vast majority of college linemen are superior run-blockers. They don't develop the pass-blocking until their NFL years. Usually, they are men amongst boys in college, so they do look like better run-blockers than they show in the NFL.
When I was shouting for the drafting of Thomas, I remember quite clearly that my thoughts on him from watching him play were that he was an outstanding pass-blocker but he wasn't all that as a run-blocker. All the scouting reports said otherwise, and even now, just watch him play. He isn't close to a mauler.
The coaches have to shoulder their share of the blame because what I've seen on film is that the schemes have flaws. However, when Lauvao doubles a NT, then doesn't try to shed and get to the 2nd level until after the RB is already in the hole, well, that tells me quite clearly he isn't doing the job.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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WTH is going on?! I'm agreeing with the frog again! Must be the all the snow outside. Maybe hell has frozen over! 
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WTH is going on?! I'm agreeing with the frog again! Must be the all the snow outside. Maybe hell has frozen over!
It's all this snow-buffered clarified air in Ohio muddling my Texas-drenched brain. 
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Lauvao is one of the better guards in the AFC. Schwartz has probowls in his future. The reason this line wasnt considered terrific run blockers is because the runner was slow to accelerate and a lot of runs were stuffed due to the TE missing blocks completely.
Hardesty has busted it all year and we have seen the results. when Richardson has shown decent burst, he has produced. Last week he was looking great, the run game was very effective and then he got his ankle rolled up on but that was the best Richardson has ran the ball all year.
Greco has played well in Pinky absense but Pinky was awful throughout preseason and until he went on IR. medical issues may have been a culprit but he was horrible and no where near what he was just a year ago which was average.
Its not a great guard class. Warford I belive will be the best out of the group. He is a monster with a mean streak.
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Then you read some pretty poor scouting reports on Thomas. The ones I have are all film based (not highlights, entire GAMES, snap by snap) and pretty much everyone saw that he was a much better pass blocker than run blocker You also probably don't read half a dozen GOOD reports on nearly 500 prospects every year as I waste my time with that  If you did, you'd know that there are LOTS of OL that have a bad rep for poor or lazy run blocking but get props for their athelticism and pass block dominance in College. Sure, there are probably more better College run blockers out there, but it's not nearly 90-10% as you try to paint it. Mack, Miller, Pinky and Greco were all considered MAULERS coming out. Mack had major issues pass blocking even in College but was a beast in the run game, same with Miller and Greco. Pinky is only a bit different because he was an OT in College but overall was labled pretty balanced but with a mauling style Call it living in th past, but I highly doubt this is a coincidence that all of those guys have reversed their strengths
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WTH is going on?! I'm agreeing with the frog again! Must be the all the snow outside. Maybe hell has frozen over!
It's all this snow-buffered clarified air in Ohio muddling my Texas-drenched brain.
Snow-buffered clarified air in Ohio? What's that got to do with my poisoned New York air?
I miss Texas though. It really is a Whole Other Country. At least I have my 'passport' to get back in.
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Lauvao is one of the better guards in the AFC.
You can't really believe this.
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Schwartz has pro bowls in his future.
Well, he is better than the sieve or turnstile that was at the position last year, but Pro Bowls?
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The reason this line wasn't considered terrific run blockers is because the runner was slow to accelerate and a lot of runs were stuffed due to the TE missing blocks completely.
I'm not going to defend Richardson, but I saw the games and I saw him do well for what he had to run through. This group lacks run-blocking skills and Weeden certainly wasn't scaring anyone.
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Hardesty has busted it all year and we have seen the results. when Richardson has shown decent burst, he has produced. Last week he was looking great, the run game was very effective and then he got his ankle rolled up on but that was the best Richardson has ran the ball all year.
Richardson's injury happened near the very end of the game and had nothing to do with his running. He's gotten 11 and 9 carries the past two weeks before getting injured late in the game last week.
Hardesty is crap and that's the reason that the Browns selected Richardson.
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Greco has played well in Pinky absence but Pinky was awful throughout preseason and until he went on IR. Medical issues may have been a culprit but he was horrible and nowhere near what he was just a year ago which was average.
And you know why I said that the Browns should have drafted David DeCastro when he was still available at #22 but the triumvirate of evil had been smoking some Weeden and chose an immobile 28 y.o. quarterback.
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Its not a great guard class. Warford I believe will be the best out of the group. He is a monster with a mean streak.
It's Warmack that's going to be the best of the group and here's hoping that we actually consider him, but I would trade back and look to sign Andy Levitre from Buffalo in free agency.
I'd like to see the Browns get Werner from Florida State at DE and give us a real pass rush on the ends.
Now it's not time to go into the interior of the OL in the draft when there are some nice possibilities in the FA market.
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Lavaou isn't even the best OG in the AFC North.
Yanda, Zeitler are both better than Lavaou.
In fact I can think of 4-5 OGs who play better on Sundays.
Andy Levitre
Sebastian Vollmer
Zane Beadles
Wade Smith.
all of those OG's can pull and neuralize a DT and get to the 2nd level and negate a LB.
Lavaou can't even get out on the edge consistantly and block for a simple screen pass.He's heavy footed and over extends his upper body.
He's good for a couple penalities a game. For a o-lineman he's pretty dumb.
one reason why the Browns can't run the ball is that the Browns OGs can't get to the 2nd level and wash out LB's.
Watson is a average run blocker and gets worse every game.
Jordan Cameron when it comes to blocking puts a dress on.
Heck he was soft playing basketball at USC. No surprise
the Browns have a finese o-line. Thats why they pass block so well.
the Browns haven't had a OG worth a darn since Steinbach went down.
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You dont like the guards because Colt needed a scape goat and Toad doesnt like the guards because Richardson needed a scape goat. Fact of the matter is that we upgraded RT and pass protection dramatically improved.
Run Blocking isnt nearly the problem many have made it out to be. A banged up running back that didnt have his burst was the big issue. People may think I am ripping on Trent but I am not. I dont think he was ever healthy. I dont believe he had anywhere close to the burst he had in college until the last game.
Trent was imho the best player in the draft last year but I said it then, I would not draft a RB top 10 that just had knee surgery and I was ripped for calling a knee scope surgery. He is a warrior, he didnt want to come out and he played hurt.
Trent never had an off season to get healthy. He was pushing trying to get healthy in time for the draft, then pushing trying to get healthy for the start of the season. I fully expect a top 10 run offense next year no matter what system we are running. Whether we are running the WCO or Bruce Arians vertical spread.
Now I also think Weeden will be tons better. He was learning how to be a QB this year. This year he was learning on the job and surrounded by players still learning on the job. He never faced the kind of defenses he saw this year and he was never asked to master a complicated offense like he was this year. He went from basic math to advanced calculus.
Change in offense will set him back in some areas but he got a lot of growing pains out of the way this year. I personally am pleased with where the rookie is at and believe he is much farther along than I expected him to be.
A lot of it is just having that off season to work and gain the understanding of how these guys run their routes and where they want the ball. Is Gordon gonna body out and go hard or is he a slow down and wait for the opening? all kinds of stuff he just has to learn and you cant do it all in one season.
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I dont believe he had anywhere close to the burst he had in college until the last game.
Not gonna pick through everything just to argue points, but do you honestly believe that Richardson, who was wobbled with the Ribs this year, and has said he won't be right until next year, suddenly found his burst in the last game, when, according to your inference, hasn't been there all year?
Really?!
Again, I'll invite anyone to drop the money on the coaches film. That tells stories that many of you wouldn't believe...until you've seen it.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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You dont like the guards because Colt needed a scape goat and Toad doesnt like the guards because Richardson needed a scape goat. Fact of the matter is that we upgraded RT and pass protection dramatically improved.
Actually, I don't like the guards because they suck!
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Run Blocking isnt nearly the problem many have made it out to be. A banged up running back that didnt have his burst was the big issue. People may think I am ripping on Trent but I am not. I dont think he was ever healthy. I dont believe he had anywhere close to the burst he had in college until the last game.
Run blocking on the Browns has been a problem for years. Pass blocking was too and in some ways it still is.
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Trent was imho the best player in the draft last year but I said it then, I would not draft a RB top 10 that just had knee surgery and I was ripped for calling a knee scope surgery. He is a warrior, he didnt want to come out and he played hurt.
Trent Richardson wasn't even close to being the best player in the draft last year. He wasn't even the best offensive player.
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Trent never had an off season to get healthy. He was pushing trying to get healthy in time for the draft, then pushing trying to get healthy for the start of the season. I fully expect a top 10 run offense next year no matter what system we are running. Whether we are running the WCO or Bruce Arians vertical spread.
If we have the same guards that we used in the run blocking over the past 5 years, that's not going to be the case.
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Now I also think Weeden will be tons better. He was learning how to be a QB this year. This year he was learning on the job and surrounded by players still learning on the job. He never faced the kind of defenses he saw this year and he was never asked to master a complicated offense like he was this year. He went from basic math to advanced calculus.
Learning how to be a QB at age 29? Are you kidding? Weeden won't be tons better unless he's out of the NFL.
How about he go from basic math to algebra or geometry first before he tries to tackle advanced calculus. I'll bet that Brandon Weeden couldn't spell the words 'quadratic equation' if you spotted him every letter.
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Change in offense will set him back in some areas but he got a lot of growing pains out of the way this year. I personally am pleased with where the rookie is at and believe he is much farther along than I expected him to be.
You need to stop believing that the new regime is going to even give Weeden another chance without him earning it. And if the current group of QBs is all that we have, he would probably fail to make the team.
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A lot of it is just having that off season to work and gain the understanding of how these guys run their routes and where they want the ball. Is Gordon gonna body out and go hard or is he a slow down and wait for the opening? all kinds of stuff he just has to learn and you cant do it all in one season.
Why can't you accomplish all that in one season? That isn't the advanced calculus that you said Weeden was taking. How hard is it understand that the QB is supposed to throw the ball away from opposing defenders? When the safety is coming to help on coverage, you don't throw it towards the hash but to the sideline. How difficult is that?
If the safety is cheating up to play the run, how hard is it to understand that there isn't any deep help for the corners and that you're going to have 1-on-1 opportunities. Throw it up and let your receivers make the plays. It really isn't that hard to comprehend.
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It's funny, man...people only complain about guards when they whiff on a pass-block and get the QB killed, not when they can't open a hole for a running back. That's why there hasn't been as much complaining about our guards this year.
There has been less complaining because people are realizing that our guards are doing a good job my friend. 
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 39,674
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 39,674 |
I agree with Toad, we don't have any drive blockers other than Schwartz.
If we expect to get a better return out of Richardson we will need to change that. Richardson isn't like a Peterson who can get to the edge. He is like Stephen Jackson, a between the tackles runner, thus, we would be wise to get some players who can give the guy a seam every now and then.
It's ok for receivers to be "get in the way" blockers. Guards need to be able to move people.
JMO
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,506
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,506 |
I wish I could find the breakdown that someone posted at some point here .... because I seem to recall that us running from C to outside RT was pretty good for us. It was, IIRC, over 4 yards/carry. Running left from C to outside LT was out problem.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Mitchell Schwartz
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