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I like this idea and for the life of me I can't figure out why in America this isn't an option . Why can we not choose to leave this life in a controlled pain free dignified manner ? Oh wait .... the medical/pharma complex would lose money .
Deaf Twins Going Blind Euthanized
By Russell Goldman | ABC News – Mon, Jan 14, 2013
Two deaf twin brothers in Belgium were euthanized by their doctor after realizing they were going blind and would be unable to see each other ever again, their physician says.
The 45-year-old men, whose names have not been made public, were legally put to death by lethal injection at the Brussels University Hospital in Jette, on Dec. 14.
The men, who were born deaf, had a cup of coffee and said goodbye to other family members before walking into hospital room together to die, their doctor told Belgian television station RTL.
"They were very happy. It was a relief to see the end of their suffering," said Dr. David Dufour.
"They had a cup of coffee in the hall. It went well and a rich conversation. Then the separation from their parents and brother was very serene and beautiful," he said. "At the last there was a little wave of their hands and then they were gone,"
More than 1,000 people legally availed themselves of doctor-assisted deaths in Belgium in 2011, most of them were terminally ill cancer patients.
The brothers are unique in that their illness was not terminal. Belgian law, however, allows doctors to euthanize "suffering" patients who are both mentally sound, over 18 and want to die.
Belgian lawmakers are considering a law that would extend euthanasia to dementia patients and children, whose families and doctors consented.
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I'm divided on this.
On one hand, I would hate having someone I love in a literal death spiral from which they will never recover, and in extreme pain and suffering. I remember when my Granddad passed away. The last time I saw him me said "I just want to die. I'm ready. Why won't they let me die?". This was the strongest man I had ever known, and who was still robust and independent at age 96 .... but at 97 he went downhill rapidly. Fortunately he did not hang on too long once, and once he started to go, he went rather quickly. Still, it was a helpless feeing, seeing him hanging on by a thread, in extreme pain. The worst part was that they couldn't increase his pain medication, because it might have killed him.
My Mom has asked that we not do anything "heroic" to save her life if she is struck with something from which she will not recover. Personally I believe that I will fight for every last breath I can take ..... because that's my personality ..... but I have assured her that her wishes will take priority, when and if that time comes.
My biggest problem with the whole Euthanasia argument is this ...... who decides? As much as we hate to think about it, there are people who would pull the plug on someone, not out of love and concern for their loved one ..... but for their own selfish reasons. I always think that we should err on the side of life, if there is any question what the terminally ill person's desires are.
I also worry about the proverbial slippery slope. Today a terminally ill person decides. Tomorrow the terminally ill person's loved ones decide. What if we get to a point where the government decides because care is too expensive? I know that A doesn't always lead to B and C ...... but it often does.
Like I said ... there is no easy answers, and, for me, at least, concerns that counter balance many of the compassionate sides of the argument.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Because if there is any chance someone would object, get hurt, or not like a decision the government steps in and decides they need to make a law about it.
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I understand the conflicted feelings and that is to be expected . What I fail to understand is how ANYONE who has witnessed a loved one suffer day in and day out "living" in mind altering pain who didn't wish they could end it for them . There are things far far worse than death .
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That's why it is CRITICAL to have a living will in place. That way there is no question regarding the person's wishes should they not be able to speak on their own behalf.
[color:"white"]"Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
-- Mark Twain [/color]
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My bizarre take on things: For anyone currently under the age of 60 there is the possibility that you may live well beyond modern norms. The chances go up a good deal if you are under 30 and best yet if you have yet to be born  With anti-aging technology coming down the pipeline, it was potentially short-sighted of these two to be put to death when the possibility of living to be 140 is arriving. And for all we know a treatment to their blindness could have been available in a number of years. It is an understandable choice on their part, but I would always hedge my death on the possibility of medical cures. That is my basic argument against suicide / dying for the under 60 crowd. I see no reason not to have euthanasia available to people over 18. Especially the elderly with chronic pain or diminishing mental abilities; or terminally ill people. It seems strange to me that it isn't already legal. I don't understand the debate.
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I've got mixed feelings when it comes to euthanasia. We were in a conundrum with my father, who had a living will that stated that he did not want to be placed on life support if he was in a terminal state and unable to make decisions for himself. I was present when this was drawn up, and knew exactly what his wishes were. I was made power of attorney.
He had terminal cancer and went in for major surgery to remove a large tumor that was blocking his colon. Upon recovery from the anesthesia, He went into a delirious state and they had to medically induce a coma and place him on a ventilator. The oncologist said he had less than a month to live, and that his quality of life would be very poor and painful. There was no guarantee he would come out of that coma, and if he did and found himself on a vent, I could only think that he'd feel I failed him in his last wishes. I have 2 brothers. Myself and one brother felt we should honor his living will and unplug the vent. My other brother (who is a devout Catholic), was absolutely against ending the life support. We came to an agreement that we'd give dad 2 days and then pull the plug, as the doc said after that length of time he probably wouldn't be able to be weaned from the vent even if he came out of the coma. I prayed to God that night like I've never prayed before.
The next day, dad awoke from his coma and was weaned from the ventilator. He was mentally clear and sharp as a tack. We took him home, got a second opinion up at UofM and tried a new chemotherapy. He lived 2 more years, most of which were high quality. He kicked hospice out of the house and went on like nothing was the matter. Either that first oncologist was an incompetent jerk or there was some divine intervention going on here. Dad said that this was the one and only time that he was glad that I didn't listen to him.
I don't think this was a rare or unusual circumstance, and I'd hate for anyone else to be put in a similar position and make the wrong decision.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
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Living deaf and blind ? No thanks . Staying alive in a living tomb with little or no external stimulation would make the choice easy for me .
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I'd hate for anyone else to be put in a similar position and make the wrong decision.
No reason for that to be the case at all . If the decision has been made prior to whatever surgery or procedure that was to take place then the matter should be settled. If I were to sign a DNR or no heroic measures and the hospital put me on a vent anyway I think you should be able to sue the hell out of that hospital.
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As much as we hate to think about it, there are people who would pull the plug on someone, not out of love and concern for their loved one ..... but for their own selfish reasons.
And there are many who will keep a suffering loved one around for their own selfish reasons as well.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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I'm confused, was blindness the only issue? I mean if it was, that seems rather silly given the amount of help and services there are for blind people today.
I mean, I drove up to an drive up ATM and they have brail on the numbers for cryin out loud. (driving isn't recommended for the blind however)
seriously, if it was end of life time and they were suffering pain, I mean serious pain, I could get behind that.
I'm not sure I'd want to suffer if I didn't need to.
If a doctor or group of them agreed that I had a horrible death ahead, one that they themselves wouldn't want to go through, then yeah, I could get behind ending it at that point.
isn't this kinda what Jack Kevorkian was put away for?
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Do you read before you post? They were born deaf. So you have deafness (can't hear) and blindness (can't see).
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What's wrong with the youth in Asia?
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
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I'm all for it..Watching a loved one or any one suffer is heart breaking.
I get irritated as hell when I here people say " you should put your pet down, it's cruel to let them live like that " or " you know it's time, no use watching pet suffer, it's best for it "
Ya know ? great idea. I'll drop off my old ailing pet at the Vets and have it put to sleep, on my way back to the hospital and spend time with my loved one who has been suffering for 9 months and isn't expected to live.And if they do live they are going to wish they hadn't...
" Honey I put the dog down she was just suffering to much" " Oh and by the way I see they stuck more tubes in you while I was gone " That will make it all better...
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I've been a hospice nurse for 7 of my 15 years of nursing. I've watched more people die in that time than most people will ever see in their lifetime. I've also seen more unneeded suffering. Suffering that even as a hospice nurse with all the tools (medications) at my disposal am unable to alleviate. I'm all for euthanasia. As others have said there are things much worse than death. For 99% of my patients death a is a much needed release. The human body when healthy is an amazing machine. When it fails... It can be horrible. A cruel trap for our soul. Let those that can chose an easier path choose it. Again, we don't let our pets suffer half the tragedies many choose to put their loved ones through.
Our culture has placed too high a premium on extending life. Regardless if the life we're extending has any quality to it at all. Sad really. Our fear of our own mortality often drives this. "If mom or dad dies that means I'm next!" "Well, keep dad alive!" Maybe it's not the conscious thought but I believe it to often be a driving force. I also think we do a great diservice to our youth by 'protecting' them from such a huge part of the human experience, death. Too often the first people we see die are our parents, as our parents shielded us from our grandparent's passing. This leads people to a misunderstanding of the process and infuses fear of the unknown into the picture. This is typically my biggest battle I face in dealing with families.
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If I recall correctly, Kevorkian was put away for providing people with the means and instructions on humanely taking their own lives.
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I'm for it conditionally. At the very least there needs to be a window (I'll say 3 months for the sake of having something out there) where you make your decree that you'd like your life to end. And then there is time to contemplate that choice, come to terms with it and if you still want to do it be medically assisted in making it a painless process.
There probably should be other mental health stipulations but I'm not against having the ability to end things.
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I'm not sure I would be in favor of it for a person who isn't terminal and in pain...
To be honest, my biggest problem is that it's not a very big step from deciding you want to end your life to having somebody else decide for you... I mean the above circumstance is not a pain or life/death issue... the 2 guys could have lived a long life... So what happens when a 6 year old has some serious challenges and the parent(s) decide that having them around is too inconvenient and determines for the child that their quality of life just isn't ever going to be very good........ who gets to make that decision for a minor?
yebat' Putin
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Do you read before you post? They were born deaf. So you have deafness (can't hear) and blindness (can't see).
Yeah, but lots of people are deaf and blind,, I don't see the need to commit suicide..
And do us all a favor, quit acting like a wisearse.. You didn't need to talk to me that way.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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To be honest, my biggest problem is that it's not a very big step from deciding you want to end your life to having somebody else decide for you
I've seen this repeated a few times now, and I just do not understand the logic. How is it not a big step between someone deciding they want to die and someone else making that decision. Seems to me there is a huge step there. Now, perhaps you are referring to decisions being made for those who are incompetent to do so, but then there is no step at all because the incompetent person couldn't make the decision to begin with. This story with the 45 yo brothers is a different situation. Here we have two competent individuals making the decision. If the premise of the argument is strictly limited to this situation, the supposed "small step" to euthenizing competent individuals against their will doesn't make sense.
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I mean the above circumstance is not a pain or life/death issue... the 2 guys could have lived a long life...
Do you call that living ? I honestly do not think I could live that way DC... Not hearing or seeing.... just sitting in a silent darkness...that scares the hell out of me....
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So what happens when a 6 year old has some serious challenges and the parent(s) decide that having them around is too inconvenient and determines for the child that their quality of life just isn't ever going to be very good........ who gets to make that decision for a minor?
That's a very good question...I guess in time the child will grow to be an adult...and then should have the say so...It's the ones that are so severe, that they cannot communicate in any way..
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And do us all a favor, quit acting like a wisearse.. You didn't need to talk to me that way.
I once told him something similar, and he had no idea what I was talking about.
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My theory is you have to live life from beginning to end.
We didn't pick the beginning, so we shouldn't choose the end. It will happen when it happens.
JMO
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Do you read before you post? They were born deaf. So you have deafness (can't hear) and blindness (can't see).
Yeah, but lots of people are deaf and blind,, I don't see the need to commit suicide..
And do us all a favor, quit acting like a wisearse.. You didn't need to talk to me that way.
My response to you (quoted above) was in reply to your first post in this thread, and I quote you
"I'm confused, was blindness the only issue? I mean if it was, that seems rather silly given the amount of help and services there are for blind people today"
The article that started this thread answered your question. THAT is why I asked if you even read before you posted.
Sorry you took it as me being a wise ass.
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I mean the above circumstance is not a pain or life/death issue... the 2 guys could have lived a long life...
Do you call that living ? I honestly do not think I could live that way DC... Not hearing or seeing.... just sitting in a silent darkness...that scares the hell out of me....
I agree. being in a silent dark world never hearing music or your families voices, or seeing thier faces. never knowing if your alone of in a room full of people, if it's day or night etc.
Even though there is brail, how would you learn it if you could see or hear to be taught. Sure over time with touch maybe, but that would be a long rueling road and I would not want to impose myself on family members who deserve better than to spend their days taking care of me.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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j'c I have a plan. If I'm fit enough to carry it out, I'll do this- if I ever recieve a "death sentence".... I love nature. I've been a backwoods camper for almost my entire adult life. If the doc says: "Clemmy- you have an inoperable brain tumor, and you have 6 months to live," I'll get as many 2nd opinions I can get. If the verdict is unanimous, I'm saying my goodbyes, packing my gear, and heading out to a place I've already picked out. It's the most beautiful place I've ever seen... and it will provide for me all I need to survive for as long as I can. When it's time, Ma Nature will treat me exactly as she does any of Her Children- and that will be alright with me. I'll fight every day, as I should- but whether it's a bear attack, hypothermia, dehydration or a fall from a precipice, I'm going out on my terms.It won't be suicide. It won't be euthanasia. It will be living Life in the fullest way imaginable... until Life can no longer be sustained. My deepest fear is that my end will come unnaturally- a car accident that leaves me in a chronic vegetative state, a plane crash or some manifestation of modern life gone terribly wrong. Why? because deaths of that sort almost always happen because of stupidity- on the part of others or myself. If it's within my power, I plan to die a beautiful death- in a beautiful place. If God has some other plan for My Last Day, My Beloved Wife and my best friends all know that they will be taking a trip- to this very place.... to spread my ashes in this God-blessed location On Earth. __________ As for euthanasia, I'll stay away from the "slippery slope" argument for just a moment, and say this: when Dr. Jack Kevorkian was incarcerated, a part of me felt bad for him. He'd been labeled a "monster," a "ghoul," and a "crackpot obsessed with death." I saw someone quite different. I saw a man whose life in medicine had given him a glimpse- up-close- of the prolonged suffering and (yes, I'll call it) torture that was endured by patients and families for whom medical treatments could only prolong life, but never cure the maladies destroying their lives, psyches, family threads and financial resources, He decided to act, by giving the patient total control of the 'how and when'... and helped them in about as humanely a manner as was available at the time. I won't delve into the philosophical and religious aspects of this issue, because the thread's genesis was rooted in an article regarding medical decision-making. But if I were asked point-blank about euthanasia in modern society, I would answer thus: "Why could my beloved pets Tillie Howliday, Dizzy Growlespie, Kimah, and Nutmeg obtain relief from their suffering with no problems at all.... while Human Beings are left to slowly deteriorate in pain and anguish? We euthanize canines every day, with the word 'humane' readily at our lips... and we can't do the same for once-vibrant people who are now suffering unimaginable torture? hu·mane (hyoo-mayn) adj. 1. Characterized by kindness, mercy, or compassion: a humane judge. 2. Marked by an emphasis on humanistic values and concerns: a humane education. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/humaneWe can do for dogs what Jack Kevorkian couldn't do for Human Beings. Maybe it's just me, but that just seems messed up- in every way I can count.
"too many notes, not enough music-"
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I mean the above circumstance is not a pain or life/death issue... the 2 guys could have lived a long life...
Do you call that living ? I honestly do not think I could live that way DC... Not hearing or seeing.... just sitting in a silent darkness...that scares the hell out of me....
There are a lot of people who deal with things that I can't imagine dealing with... people who live their lives in a way that I wouldn't qualify as "living".. people who spend 14 hours a day playing video games, people without a medical reason who are so obese that they can't get out of bed, etc...
In the end, we all have the ability to decide whether or not we wake up tomorrow, we always have and we always will...
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That's a very good question...I guess in time the child will grow to be an adult...and then should have the say so...
What about the ones that don't even feel the need to become adults? What about the ones that might want to become adults but the parents don't feel their quality of life is worth sustaining?
I'm not talking about terminally ill folks who are in severe pain...
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Do you read before you post? They were born deaf. So you have deafness (can't hear) and blindness (can't see).
Yeah, but lots of people are deaf and blind,, I don't see the need to commit suicide..
And do us all a favor, quit acting like a wisearse.. You didn't need to talk to me that way.
My response to you (quoted above) was in reply to your first post in this thread, and I quote you
"I'm confused, was blindness the only issue? I mean if it was, that seems rather silly given the amount of help and services there are for blind people today"
The article that started this thread answered your question. THAT is why I asked if you even read before you posted.
Sorry you took it as me being a wise ass.
Blind, Deaf or Blind and Deaf,, people live with those issues all over the world.. to be that young and to commit suicide? That's dumb. sorry, But I'm confused by this thinging..
and you were a wisearse about it. This business of always wanting to find those "Gotcha" Moments are getting boring.
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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If an animal is suffering the humane thing is to put it out of its misery. If a human is suffering, the humane thing is to legally force them to live and suffer.
If I am stricken with cancer or some painful demise or diagnosed with early onset Alzheimers, I will suicide out. I don't fear death. I fear making those around me suffer because of my illness and I just don't want to go through chemo and all that torture either.
We are all going to die and I think for those of us that want to die with a little dignity in tact should be allowed.
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They're completely rational, sane adults who made what I am sure was a very difficult decision. I know that if I was in the same situation, I would want at least the ability to decide my course of action.
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I know that if I was in the same situation, I would want at least the ability to decide my course of action.
You always have the choice, the question is whether somebody else can legally help you...
I have a question, if you get cancer and might live another 15 years but decide you don't want to go through it.. or if you are blind and deaf or if you have some other terminal illness where the natural end of your life is uncertain.. and you choose suicide (assuming it was legal).. should life insurance have to pay up for that?
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I know that if I was in the same situation, I would want at least the ability to decide my course of action.
You always have the choice, the question is whether somebody else can legally help you...
I have a question, if you get cancer and might live another 15 years but decide you don't want to go through it.. or if you are blind and deaf or if you have some other terminal illness where the natural end of your life is uncertain.. and you choose suicide (assuming it was legal).. should life insurance have to pay up for that?
I don't have problem with insurance picking up the tab. The cost if chemo, hospitalizations, rehab care, or long term care FAR exceed the cost of 'putting a human down' humanely. Almost all my patients are Medicare recipients. The daily cost of pain medications for some of my patients is more than my monthly mortgage. I'd rather my tax money go towards health care for the living rather than healthcare for the 'walking dead'. Assuming those people want to 'opt out' of life.
And yes, life insurance should pay up. If the terminal diagnosis is made, it's made. The life is ending. Should it matter when or over how long a period?
Last edited by PortlandDawg; 01/21/13 06:00 PM.
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And yes, life insurance should pay up. If the terminal diagnosis is made, it's made. The life is ending. Should it matter when or over how long a period?
Yes, if it's 15 more years of premiums that could be paid in, it matters quite a bit.
#GMSTRONG
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Legend
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Legend
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I am only going to talk about what I have decided as it applies to me. I make no judgement on mentally competent individuals being allowed to end their lives. To tell you what and why I feel how I feel about suicide, as it applies to me only, I have to say what I believe. I do believe that Jesus died on the cross, and that he suffered greatly. I believe he felt fear and doubt ... "My father, my father, why have you forsaken me?" ... and yet, suffer he did, and die he did. If you are a Christian, I think its clear that the way Christ died was an example of the passage we all have before us someday. I believe it is our (my) job to accept and endure whatever fate is in store for me, and that it is my test of faith and fidelity to do so. "This too shall pass", my mother used to say during times of trouble, and I think its especially true of our end of life.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,256
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,256 |
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If an animal is suffering the humane thing is to put it out of its misery. If a human is suffering, the humane thing is to legally force them to live and suffer.
If I am stricken with cancer or some painful demise or diagnosed with early onset Alzheimers, I will suicide out. I don't fear death. I fear making those around me suffer because of my illness and I just don't want to go through chemo and all that torture either.
We are all going to die and I think for those of us that want to die with a little dignity in tact should be allowed.
My feeling is God gives us bounty and presents us with challenge.
Everybody allows the bounty, so we need to be ready to accept the challenge.
Play it to the end. There is something to be learned in those days.
Last edited by Ballpeen; 01/21/13 07:07 PM.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Posts: 8,902
Hall of Famer
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Just to be clear I feel, for me, that death is our final 'test' in this skin. But I also don't feel that it's my right to legislate that other make the choices for themselves that I would make for myself. Those choices are between them and God.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015 |
Quote:
Quote:
And yes, life insurance should pay up. If the terminal diagnosis is made, it's made. The life is ending. Should it matter when or over how long a period?
Yes, if it's 15 more years of premiums that could be paid in, it matters quite a bit.
Well the costs of care for a terminally ill patient will far exceed any premiums paid in for that time.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,468
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,468 |
Quote:
If an animal is suffering the humane thing is to put it out of its misery. If a human is suffering, the humane thing is to legally force them to live and suffer.
If I am stricken with cancer or some painful demise or diagnosed with early onset Alzheimers, I will suicide out. I don't fear death. I fear making those around me suffer because of my illness and I just don't want to go through chemo and all that torture either.
We are all going to die and I think for those of us that want to die with a little dignity in tact should be allowed.
Now that is not at all what I'm talking about. Deaf and blind aren't life threatening.. The former owner of the Cavs and one of the wealthest men in Cleveland, was legally blind. He just passed away.
the thing with Cancers and the like that will cause a person to suffer pain and indignity, I have a an entirely different view of that.
I have signed a DNR for when/if that day comes for me.
From my perspective, that's the end and thats the time to end suffering.
But blind and deaf? Come on...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
And yes, life insurance should pay up. If the terminal diagnosis is made, it's made. The life is ending. Should it matter when or over how long a period?
Yes, if it's 15 more years of premiums that could be paid in, it matters quite a bit.
Well the costs of care for a terminally ill patient will far exceed any premiums paid in for that time.
While that is true, you are talking about 2 different insurance companies.. the healthcare insurance will pay the bills, the life insurance will only pay out upon death... I doubt the life insurance companies care how much the health insurance company pays our while it is making 15 more years of premiums.....
yebat' Putin
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,367 |
Quote:
The former owner of the Cavs and one of the wealthest men in Cleveland, was legally blind. He just passed away.
Being legally blind is not even close to being both fully blind and deaf. Stop for a minute and think about what that would be like. I'm not advocating that someone kill themselves in that situation, but please stop acting like the person has a cold or something. Being both blind and deaf would be a very rough existence.
Having said that, because it was driving me crazy, I agree completely with Portland on this one. I know many nurses and there is far more "euthanasia" than those not in the healthcare world know about....and it's a kind and humane thing.
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