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The Browns recent approach to the LB position at best has been laxidasical one not one with a sense of urgency.
Going back 6 seasons,the Browns have never drafted a LB higher than the 2nd RD.
While Tom Heckert was GM,he drafted a total of 2 LBers.
In 2009 and 2010 while Rob Ryan was DC.they drafted a whopping 2 LBers.
since 2007,the Browns have drafted 7 LBers. and there is only one still in the NFL prior to the 2012 Draft and thats Kaluka Maiavia.
theres a old saying,"you get what you pay for"
If there is a team that has worse track record in recent memory of drafting LBers I have yet to see one.
Heckert drafted as many,QBs, FBs, and RBs as he did LBers.
he thought going the bargain bin route was sound thinking with LBers.
Fujita was at the end of his road,and Gocong lost his job in 2009 to a 7th RD pick.
Heckert totally ignored free agency when it came to the LBers.
Mangini didn't help matters by swinging and missing like Dave Kingman on Veikune. Maivaia for some reason has stuck around. He's not because he's makes plays thats for sure.
Dqwell Jackson has been steady at the MLB position. But I see him as reaching his ceiling now. He might have peaked already.
I have maintained, playoff teams have playmakers at LB.
You don't reach the playoffs by having average LBers.
I look at the current Browns LBers..who is a tone setter..who is a violent tackler?
who is the difference maker?
Jackson is the only LB that could start for another 4-3 team.
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ok, cannot read much of that without my head hurting.
our LBers (outside of DQ) leave much to be desired. I agree.
add in: Robertson is a very good nickel-LBer
what we need to do at LBer though depends so much on who our next DC is that I don't know how we have much more discussion at this point on the matter.
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I say its a possibility if we go to a 3-4 D that we address the LB spots with our first two picks (1st & 3rd).
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Are you ever positive about anything? Like anything at all?
Moving to the 3-4 (as it looks like we'll do) will require dramatic reshaping of the LB core. We actually did well last year in the UDFA market with LJ Fort and Robertson. Sadly, I don't think either of these guys are 3-4 backers unless we play a far smaller 3-4 than is normally seen..
Fujita is at the end of his career. Gocong I think has talent and hopefully will come back well from his injury. Jackson is better in a 4-3 but still has what it takes for a 3-4 and Maivia is a utility guy but not a true starter. JMJ I didn;t see enough of this year but he looks the part of more of a 4-3 guy also.
If we stayed 4-3, I'd say we aren;t too bad at LB with Fort, Robertson and JMJ developing and would say we need to maybe look at filling one spot. With the 3-4 though, the situation is not good and we really need to retool the whole LB core.
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Quote:
I say its a possibility if we go to a 3-4 D that we address the LB spots with our first two picks (1st & 3rd).
agreed. though i would hope we only use one to address it and use FA on the other (Shaun Phillips or Anthony Spencer)
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Quote:
ok, cannot read much of that without my head hurting.
our LBers (outside of DQ) leave much to be desired. I agree.
add in: Robertson is a very good nickel-LBer
what we need to do at LBer though depends so much on who our next DC is that I don't know how we have much more discussion at this point on the matter.
I agree. It's like Kendall writes poetry in a out of kilter iambic pentameter style.
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Iwillneverreadanotheroneofyourpostsuntilyoulearnsomethingaboutparagraphsandpunctuation.
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Quote:
I agree. It's like Kendall writes poetry in a out of kilter iambic pentameter style.
I imagine that it's because he uses something other than a computer to type his posts. Like an iphone or ipad or something. Probably a smartphone.
But I do agree, it's very annoying
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Quote:
Quote:
I agree. It's like Kendall writes poetry in a out of kilter iambic pentameter style.
I imagine that it's because he uses something other than a computer to type his posts. Like an iphone or ipad or something. Probably a smartphone.
But I do agree, it's very annoying
I use my I phone to respond to business emails.. it can be done, but you gotta want to do it right and you have to adapt to it.
No, I think Kendall is just freaking lazy..
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J/C.... Since there are some posts here referencing to Kendalls style of posting... I would like to add a point... Go to the Tailgate forum and read the thread...On Cleveland Browns naming rights... I don't see any complaints on its format.... Most copied and pasted articles have the same look....Identical to the op's thread on this forum... I totally destroy proper formatting on this message board... just saying 
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If I can take the time to space out a press conference transcript to make it readable, I dont think it is to much to ask a poster to double space atleast ever few lines. The nonsense he writes is bad enough but it is horrible to read the way he posts it.
Anyway if we go to the hybrid 3-4 that has been talked about the DE/OLB must be able to play fluently in space. Sheard is your strong side and he will never be asked to do much more than slide out into a short zone area but the weakside backer is asked to do a lot but no doubt about it rushing the passer is priority #1.
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I still don't get how so many are so sure we are going to a 3-4.
One thing Chud is known for, is playing to the players strengths. I can't see him totally blowing up the defense. And I'm afraid that with the LBs we have, some major changes will have to be made. I see him, if he is really going to switch, doing it gradually
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Here are some guys that would fit the rumored hybrid defense: Paul Kruger - 9 sacks last year for Baltimore, unrestricted free agent, only 27 when the season starts. Connor Barwin - 11.5 sacks in 2011, had a down year in 2012, unrestricted free agent, will turn 27 during the season. Shaun Phillips - 31 years old, has been consistent his whole career. Anthony Spencer - Career year last year, 29 to start next season. If we get any of those four guys in free agency I will be very happy.
Last edited by cfrs15; 01/15/13 09:09 PM.
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I like the first two, but doubt they are allowed to leave. They are difference makers, teams value that, I see them resigned with nice raises.
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McCoy will bring his on DC to SD. AJ Smith stuck Turner with a DC he didnt want and it did not go well. Pagano turned it around out there. Pagano, Chud and Norv are all pretty tight so it is most likely going to happen.
The hybrid system is based on changing alignments without changing personnel. We need a RDE anyway so there isn't a great deal of change of personnel going to take place.
Hughes, Kitchen Winn, Rubin and Big Phil in the middle will have little problems. Sheard's only change will be rushing wide from the upright position instead of in tight in the 3 pt stance.
With those big bodies in the middle we can probably get away with less size and more speed. RDE/OLB is key.
Anyway we were gonna look for CB, FS and RDE. Now we just need CB, FS and RDE/OLB plus more backer depth. Little has changed even if we go to Pagano's system.
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Kruger might be available because the Ravens will probably have to franchise Flacco.
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I don't think Sheard would have too much trouble since he rushed from a two point fairly often last year.
Part of me wonders if Chud remained vague about the defense so as not to scare off any potential DCs. Since he's an offensive guy, and obviously targeting Pagano, it could be that he wants to leave it up to him as to what D he feels is best.
Plus, Chud has always been vague in his interviews. I remember this ever since his first interview in 2007 when they asked him what kind of offense he would run.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
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Are you happy now?
Maybe you can read this
The Browns need to stop drafting in the mid RDs and signing undrafted FA LBers
that don't make enough explosive plays on defense.
I don't see Maivia or Acho staying in the NFL for any long amount of time.
Robertson and Fort are good depth only. Neither guy should be starting.
JMJ showed a whole of nothing. Chris Gocong is good for depth. But he isn't
going to get any better. In fact you couldn't tell the Browns missed him on
defense.
Playoff teams have playmakers at LB.
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Most playoff teams are going to have some holes on them. Teams who aren't in the playoffs are going to have more holes or a significant hole at QB.
The browns are weak at both outside lb positions, RDE, and FS on defense.
I won't take the time to dissect NFL playoff defenses aside to say I don't think the Patriots are rocking a much better group of guys at LB.
There is only so much you can do as a GM with the limited amount of picks you have. Fujita and Gocong went down last season. I wouldn't be surprised to see our group pick up 1-2 LB in FA or the draft.
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Much better, but can I help you out a little bit more: Quote:
Are you happy now?
Maybe you can read this.
The Browns need to stop drafting in the mid RDs and signing undrafted FA LBers that don't make enough explosive plays on defense.
I don't see Maivia or Acho staying in the NFL for any long amount of time. Robertson and Fort are good depth only. Neither guy should be starting. JMJ showed a whole of nothing. Chris Gocong is good for depth. But he isn't going to get any better. In fact you couldn't tell the Browns missed him on defense.
Playoff teams have playmakers at LB.
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4-3 teams generally do not spend a lot of 1st round picks on OLB, unless they can get a guy like a Von Miller, or an Aldon Smith, who are obviously special players. Any first round OLB in the 4-3 has to be a real game changer.
Most great pass rushing OLB become DE in the 4-3. They don't stay at OLB.
However, if there is a Von Miller, or an Aldon Smith in this coming draft, then sign me up no matter what defense we run.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Which part of "Heckert had 18 needs to fill and had only 6 (maybe 7-8 through ATL trade) Top 50 picks to work with" didn't you get?
I've done my best not responding to Kendall but I do now just to ask the rest why they do? Guy has no clue and has been exposed multiple times already. Stop feeding him
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In the last draft, which I think went fairly well, I was screaming for him to take a late flier on Burfict. He was a first round talent who fell after the combine, and he last through the entire draft. Then, I thought was should sign him as a free agent. But we didn't go near him and the guy ended up being a rookie star in our division. Big missed opportunity there. And probably one of the few times I've been right in my player evaluations - that's why it sticks in my mind.
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Burfict was boom or bust, going undrafted probably humbled him and he gave everything and ended up a rook starter. Having said that, I don't think he was a "rookie star", nor do I think he will be an impact guy going forward. He started 14 games, made a ton of tackles but made little to no impact plays, that might come but I don't see it. I expect him to be the LB version of Pacman with less talent to begin with. He was to the Bengals, what Robertson was to us.
Good find for them, no doubt about that...great value. We found some late round value too with Winn and in UDFA with Bademosi, who's already one of the best ST players in this league. CBs Dennard for the Pats and L.Johnson for the Bucs were the other late round/UDFA booms. All those guys fell for a reason but they all re-established their value by responding on the field with perfomance
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Quote:
Are you happy now?
Maybe you can read this
The Browns need to stop drafting in the mid RDs and signing undrafted FA LBers
that don't make enough explosive plays on defense.
I don't see Maivia or Acho staying in the NFL for any long amount of time.
Robertson and Fort are good depth only. Neither guy should be starting.
JMJ showed a whole of nothing. Chris Gocong is good for depth. But he isn't
going to get any better. In fact you couldn't tell the Browns missed him on
defense.
Playoff teams have playmakers at LB.
YES, I'm very happy that you took the time to show a little respect to the rest of us and made your post readable. thank you.
As to the content. Yup, we need to address the LB's .. I don't think Anyone questions that. I do think you underestimate Robertson however, he's got some skill and could turn out to be a pretty darn good guy.
Acho, who knows, did he even play. I think he went on DL in camp so how can you possibly know what we have there? Or were you just front loading complaints for next season..
Miava, Ehh,, he's served his purpose as depth and came in handy at times. but otherwise, I pretty much agree with you.
DQ is legit, Gocong is Legit when he replaced Fujita he was pretty good. Going forward, depending on the scheme, who knows if either will be the best fit.
But overall, Yeah, I agree with you.. We need help there no matter who is DC and no matter what scheme we run.
Just don't expect it in this draft alone. I do get the feeling that this regime will use the FA market more than Heckert and Holmgren did. And I'm ok with that, as long as they don't go overboard. everyone knows that teams that contend year after year on a consistent basis are teams that were build primarly through the draft with FA sprinkled in when the opportunity to get someone special is there for us.
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The best fit in the high part of the draft for us is Demontre Moore.Texas A&M. He is big enough to play DE in a 43 but also athletic enough to be an OLB in a 34. This would allow us to flip-flop back and forth between the 2 schemes without having to change personnel.
Jones Ala and Mingo LSU are too small to play DE in the 43 whereas Werner FSU and Montgomery LSU are 43 DE's who I do not believe have the agility to be 34 OLB's
Dion Jordan Oregon is interesting. I haven't seen enough of him but suspect he will be a 34 OLB without the size to be a 43 DE.
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Quote:
Are you happy now?
Maybe you can read this
The Browns need to stop drafting in the mid RDs and signing undrafted FA LBers
that don't make enough explosive plays on defense.
I don't see Maivia or Acho staying in the NFL for any long amount of time.
Robertson and Fort are good depth only. Neither guy should be starting.
JMJ showed a whole of nothing. Chris Gocong is good for depth. But he isn't
going to get any better. In fact you couldn't tell the Browns missed him on
defense.
Playoff teams have playmakers at LB.
Never imagined a football message board would be so loaded with kvetches. 
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Quote:
Maybe you can read this
Much better! Thanks!
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Well on the whole thread...I do think that now that we're most likely going to merge into a 3-4...we do have some needs on defense...and that will be at the OLB spot.
Our ILBs have solidified in the process. DQ, JMJ, Robertson (who may actually be able to play outside), LJ Fort, and Acho can all play inside...
Sheard and Gocong can be outside...then we have pretty much nothing.
Our DL i think is still stout regardless...but we may need a DE...I dont know though...
Winn, Rubin, Taylor starting...Hughes, Rucker, and Kitchen off the Bench...man thatd be Mean...
As for our secondary. 3 of 4 spots are loaded. Haden obviously. TJ obviously...and I think Tashaun Gipson REALLY shored up the FS spot. We do need a starting Corner though (Milliner? Nnamdi?)
I think 8-9 of our starters are actually on the roster right now
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It has to start somehow
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What better time than now?"
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j/c I wonder what that Matt Roth guy is doing these days? 
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playing golf with derek anderson, peyton hillis, and brady quinn probably.
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Quote:
playing golf with derek anderson, peyton hillis, and brady quinn probably.
you think DA and Quinn play golf together?
that'd be like Frye calling up DA for a fishing trip.
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what part of "Heckert failed as a GM" don't you get?
He could have been a bit more active in free agency and filled some holes instead of depending on late RD draft picks
He never found a difference maker in the front 7 or a legit franchise QB.
Playoff teams and playmakers at LB go hand and hand.
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We built through the draft to avoid the free agent attitude leaking into the young talent we have put together through the draft. Why is that so hard to understand? The first thing this regime wanted to do was change the attitude of the Browns.
He never found a difference maker in the front 7 or a legit franchise QB.
Really? Really? Again with talking nonsense.
Playoff teams and playmakers at LB go hand and hand.
Horse crap. Teams are putting up 40 pts a game in the playoffs and you are talking about playmaking linebackers. You could have replaced the playmaking linebackers last weekend with road cones and there would have been little difference.
Other than pass rushing 3-4 OLB/DE the linebacker position is a dime a dozen position.
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Quote:
what part of "Heckert failed as a GM" don't you get?
He could have been a bit more active in free agency and filled some holes instead of depending on late RD draft picks
He never found a difference maker in the front 7 or a legit franchise QB.
Playoff teams and playmakers at LB go hand and hand.
Failed as a GM? Are you high?
Heckert did a good job here in seriously upgrading the talent on our roster
WINS
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Richardson
Schwartz
Winn
Robertson
Taylor
Sheard
Little
Gordon
Haden
Ward
HAS POTENTIAL
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Weeden
Benjamin
Bademosi
Fort
Hughes
Skrine
Pinkston
Lauvao
Hardesty (finally)
UNKNOWN
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Smelley
JMJ
Ryan Miller
Acho
LOOKS LIKE BUST
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Wade
Cameron
Marecic
Hagg
McCoy
Asante
Carlton Mitchell
Clifton Geathers
All in all, there's very few complete misses from Heckert and the majority of these guys are still on the team and look to be sticking around for the long term.
Last edited by CanadaDawg; 01/16/13 12:57 PM.
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very good groupings. the only one i'd disagree with is that i'd move Colt to the "has potential" group and put a note "as a backup QB" considering he was a 3rd round pick that is not terrible either.
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Quote:
very good groupings. the only one i'd disagree with is that i'd move Colt to the "has potential" group and put a note "as a backup QB" considering he was a 3rd round pick that is not terrible either.
I was back and forth on that one. I stuck him in the "bust" category as we wanted him to be the starter and it didn;t work. I'm actually a Colt believer and think that he could succeed in a WCO.... He just didn;t have enough weapons to work with during his term as starter.
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Quote:
what part of "Heckert failed as a GM" don't you get?
He could have been a bit more active in free agency and filled some holes instead of depending on late RD draft picks
He never found a difference maker in the front 7 or a legit franchise QB.
Playoff teams and playmakers at LB go hand and hand.
First, let me thank you again for changing the style with which you post., much easier to read.. Thanks
Heckert was NOT a failure as a GM for the Browns. he took a team that was so badly depleted of talent and turned it into a young team with talent that needs time to mature.
Sheard, Taylor are solid examples.. How about Gordon and Richardson (yeah, I know, richardson didn't light it up, but that's hard to do with 2 broken ribs most of the season)
He brought in a lot of very strong talent that Chud can have some fun with.
But a failure,, not by a long shot.
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I agree... I would give Heckert an incomplete in grading his time here... incomplete in that he wasn't given the chance to finish and incomplete in that there are still a lot of players in that "have good potential" group..
I think to classify Heckert as a failure one had to start with totally unrealistic expectations of where we were when he got here and how fast he could get us where we wanted to go.
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I think Heckert did a nice job but I would say that the Gordon acquisition may or may not be a great pick. Getting him with a 2nd round pick is good pick but we have no idea what other teams tried to get Gordon for. If the next highest offer was a 7th round pick then getting Gordon for a 2nd round pick is not great. Getting Gordon for a 6th would then be great and taking him in round 2 is not such a great pick anymore.
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Browns need to really get serious
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![[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]](https://i.ibb.co/6WV79RV/Browns-Coach-Sig.png)
