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I think Heckert did a nice job but I would say that the Gordon acquisition may or may not be a great pick. Getting him with a 2nd round pick is good pick but we have no idea what other teams tried to get Gordon for. If the next highest offer was a 7th round pick then getting Gordon for a 2nd round pick is not great. Getting Gordon for a 6th would then be great and taking him in round 2 is not such a great pick anymore.
I don't think it matters at all what other teams would have done. He showed me enough this past season to know he's got the skills.
Now it's up to chud to develop them further and take it to the next level
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what part of "Heckert failed as a GM" don't you get?
The part that you actually think is true. 
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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I am by no means saying that Gordon doesn't have talent nor am I saying that we shouldn't have taken him. I think part of a GM's job is to have an appreciation of how other teams value a player. Taking Gordon with a 2nd round pick is a good pick but if we could have gotten him with a 6th that would have been better.
It is possible that if we wanted Gordon that we needed to use a 2nd round pick.
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Quote:
what part of "Heckert failed as a GM" don't you get?
The part that you actually think is true.
+1
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I am by no means saying that Gordon doesn't have talent nor am I saying that we shouldn't have taken him. I think part of a GM's job is to have an appreciation of how other teams value a player. Taking Gordon with a 2nd round pick is a good pick but if we could have gotten him with a 6th that would have been better.
It is possible that if we wanted Gordon that we needed to use a 2nd round pick.
That's what drives me nuts about people's evaluations of drafts. All of these draft experts, you know guys not working for actual NFL teams, come up with their rankings of where they think guys will/should go. NFL teams have their own talent evaluators... just because mel kiper thinks someone is a 4th round pick, doesn't mean taking them in the 2nd is a mistake. Who knows where other teams had the player valued? Furthermore, if you evaluated any draft years later, a good chunk of the first/second day guys wouldn't even by drafted....
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Kiper (at this point) mostly just gauges his sources and where they think people should go. It's valuable as someone needs to do it with the fans thirst to consume it.
And, he's at least willing to say when he got it wrong. He's marked Hughes as one of the guys with the most promise to make a big jump next season after disparaging the pick when it happened.
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Where does Kiper come into this???
I never said the Gordon pick was a bad one.
I said that if possible getting him with a 6th round pick would be better than getting him with a 2nd round pick.
Am I perfect? No
Am I trying to be a better person?
Also no
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Okay he upgraded the talent in 3 years. Considering what was on the roster when he
inheirted.did it really take a genius to find starters?
any GM can find "starters". How many find "difference makers?"
what do you define as a "win"
yeah its a win compared to the Bartons,Robiskie's and Stuckey's that were here.
But these wins you proclaim aren't adding up to more wins in the column that
really counts.
how many of Heckert's draft picks could start for playoff teams?
I think a healthy Richardson will be a force. But he is going to be that deciding factor in making the Browns a playoff team?
The days of teams drafting RB's in the Top 10 are coming to a close.
Vereen, Gore,Rice drafted after RD 1.Foster undrafted.
Right now it looks like Atlanta got the better part of the trade.
Jones is playing at a elite level.
are Little and Taylor in the Top 10 of their position?
Taylor IMO doesn't put the QB on the ground enough.
He has what 5 sacks in years?
Weeden was the 31st ranked QB in 2012. enough said.
Gordon and Schwartz have potential to be elite players.
I don't see Sheard as being a disruptive force. He's not exactly J J Watt or even a poor mans version
Winn showed flashes of getting after the QB.
I expect this new regime to bring in some talent via FA and drafting that send some of Heckert's draft picks that started to the bench or cut.
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I never said anything bad about what you wrote... just expanding upon your thought about gordon maybe being a worse pick if we could have gotten him in the 6th instead... while true, we never know where we could have gotten him. we do know a 2nd did it and frankly, I think he put up numbers worthy of being a 2nd round pick.
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I think when Phil Taylor is in there he's our best player on defense.
I love Athyba Rubin. I liked him before the Browns drafted him. I like that he's been in the top 3 for tackles by a DL ever since he bacame a starter. I love how he plays with more hustle than anyone else on the team. But when Phil Taylor is in the game, we get a push up the middle (pass or run) that I haven't seen with the Browns since... before the move? Shaun Rogers was great when motivated, but he was playing NT. Taylor is a monster and moves people where he wants them to be.
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You have the most unrealistic expectations I've ever seen. Heckert had a plan and stuck to it. Would we have been better if we picked up some FA's... most likely. That wasn't in the plan yet and they stuck to their guns. I applaud the building through the draft, as frustrating as it was.
It doesn't matter though, heckert's not here anymore, but only because of an ownership change, not for lack of production.
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Taylor IMO doesn't put the QB on the ground enough.
He has what 5 sacks in years?
He missed half a year due to injury. 5 sacks in a year and half is not bad for a defensive tackle.
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I don't see Sheard as being a disruptive force. He's not exactly J J Watt or even a poor mans version
They are completely different players. Also, Watt was the 11th pick in the draft. Sheard was 37th. Sheard has 15.5 career sacks. He isn't even 24 years old yet. That's pretty good.
Just because Heckert didn't do everything to your liking doesn't mean he was a failure. He was a good GM who turned the roster from one of the worst in the league to league average in three years. He wasn't the best GM in the league, but he was far from a failure.
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But it's much easier to nit pick than to be satisfied. We drafted player X, but we could have had player Y... You can do that all day long to any team, to any of their picks....
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I guess if you like 5 year plans then Heckert is your man.
meanwhile other NFL teams are turning their fortunes around in less than 5.
look around the NFL.
I'm in the minority,but thats fine.
Heckert's method of rebuilding is so out dated and yesterday.
the Browns didn't even reach .500 under Heckert.
is that asking too much?
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Okay he upgraded the talent in 3 years. Considering what was on the roster when he
inheirted.did it really take a genius to find starters?
any GM can find "starters". How many find "difference makers?"
what do you define as a "win"
yeah its a win compared to the Bartons,Robiskie's and Stuckey's that were here.
But these wins you proclaim aren't adding up to more wins in the column that
really counts.
how many of Heckert's draft picks could start for playoff teams?
I think a healthy Richardson will be a force. But he is going to be that deciding factor in making the Browns a playoff team?
The days of teams drafting RB's in the Top 10 are coming to a close.
Vereen, Gore,Rice drafted after RD 1.Foster undrafted.
Right now it looks like Atlanta got the better part of the trade.
Jones is playing at a elite level.
are Little and Taylor in the Top 10 of their position?
Taylor IMO doesn't put the QB on the ground enough.
He has what 5 sacks in years?
Weeden was the 31st ranked QB in 2012. enough said.
Gordon and Schwartz have potential to be elite players.
I don't see Sheard as being a disruptive force. He's not exactly J J Watt or even a poor mans version
Winn showed flashes of getting after the QB.
I expect this new regime to bring in some talent via FA and drafting that send some of Heckert's draft picks that started to the bench or cut.
As much as you want it to be Kendall, the NFL is not Madden. You will never have a top 10 guy at every position, despite how much you screech about it.
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did it really take a genius to find starters?
Ask our previous GMs. They were challenged to do so. The fact is that in 3 years, Heckert reshaped this team and developed a great young nucleus. The man set the foundation. Something we've been trying to do since Butch blew up FA in 2002.
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how many of Heckert's draft picks could start for playoff teams?
As of right now, not every guy listed in the Win or Has promise potential could start for the Patriots or the Niners or whoever. But these are all players with ability that are good, solid players in the league and many of which WILL develop into top rank guys.
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Right now it looks like Atlanta got the better part of the trade.
Jones is playing at a elite level.
are Little and Taylor in the Top 10 of their position?
Taylor IMO doesn't put the QB on the ground enough.
He has what 5 sacks in years?
Weeden was the 31st ranked QB in 2012. enough said.
Atlanta got a helluva player. The issue is that in 2011 we were devoid of talent ACROSS THE BOARD. Julio is doing great because he's a great talent AND has support around him. With our 2011 team, do you think he would have racked up numbers with McCoy tossing the rock and no running game? Please.
Instead we ended up with 3 starters (Taylor, Little, Weeden), a developmental LB and admittedly a washout of a FB. I'll take three good starters-especially at those positions- than one superstar anyday of the week. Its a TEAM GAME Kendall.
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I don't see Sheard as being a disruptive force. He's not exactly J J Watt or even a poor mans version
He had a better season last year than this year but the guy is not slouch. OF course he's not JJ Watt. Only JJ Watt is JJ Watt. But 8.5 last year and 7 year shows a quality defensive end. You're just playing your typical flavor of the month card. Guy has a breakout season and suddenly you believe that he's the be all end all.
You need to wake up and smell the coffee son. This ain't Madden.
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I understand your logic but it is impossible to know when another team was going to take the guy you wanted... so I think you have to look at production.. over the long haul is he producing like you would expect a second round WR to produce? If he is, then it was worth the pick regardless of where somebody else was going to take him... because you never know.
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with the emphasis on stopping big time passing aerial attacks, I think its more important for DTs in a 4-3 to be able to hit a gap and plant the QB or at least be disruptive.
Taylor has 5 sacks for his career in 2 years.
Backup DT's can produce that much in the same time span.
9 DTs in 2012 had as many sacks in one year as Taylor has had in 1.5 yrs.
Taylor is more Casey Hampton than Haloti Ngata.
Jabal Sheard is developing a pattern. He gets most of his sacks in the last part of the season when the season is out reach.
in 2011 he had 4 sacks in the final 5 sacks.
in 2012 he had 4 sacks in the final 4 games.
Him and Watt are totally different players.You are right. Watt plays with alot more intensity and attitude. Watt's motor runs all the time. Sheard's doesn't.
I look at the Browns and it was a 5-11 team when he took over and it was 5-11 when he left. I don't applaud a GM for "well if this guy pans outs blah blah."
Heckert drafted too many wait and see players.
I guess if you got points for drafting guys with potential and have to wait and see,Heckert did darn good.
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Taylor is more Casey Hampton than Haloti Ngata.
Ngata's first 3 seasons (he played all 48 games) = 5 sacks
Phil Taylor's first 2 seasons (he played 24 games) = 5 sacks
proof Phil Taylor is 2X as good as Ngata!!!!
Last edited by no_logo_required; 01/16/13 04:56 PM.
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Taylor is more Casey Hampton than Haloti Ngata.
Ngata's first 3 seasons (he played all 48 games) = 5 sacks
Phil Taylor's first 2 seasons (he played 24 games) = 5 sacks
proof Phil Taylor is 2X as good as Ngata!!!!
Epic Win.
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Taylor is more Casey Hampton than Haloti Ngata.
Ngata's first 3 seasons (he played all 48 games) = 5 sacks
Phil Taylor's first 2 seasons (he played 24 games) = 5 sacks
proof Phil Taylor is 2X as good as Ngata!!!!
Ngata's best season is still his 5th year 2010 where he had 5.5 sacks and 46 tackles.. Taylor had 4 sacks and 59 tackles as a rookie..
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Quote:
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Taylor is more Casey Hampton than Haloti Ngata.
Ngata's first 3 seasons (he played all 48 games) = 5 sacks
Phil Taylor's first 2 seasons (he played 24 games) = 5 sacks
proof Phil Taylor is 2X as good as Ngata!!!!
Epic Win.
There are a few positions where traditional statistics just don't provide anything valuable. And DT is one of them.
But yes that was a great point.
On topic....I believe that Heckert did more good than bad and that he was the best GM we've had as it relates to the draft. We have a nucleus of young talent at key positions. Did he overlook the LB position? Yeah probably but with so many holes on a team trying to get younger I don't begrudge the man.
But I also don't get the deification of his time here:
1. He was highly ineffectual at signing impact young free agents. I think this is more of a function of the owner wanting to shed salary for a planned sale but the young FAs we know he coveted he didn't get.
2. He made some risky moves in the draft that just didn't work. Hardesty is probably the best example of this but there were others.
3. He drafted some busts that looked like on paper to have bust written all over it. My favorite paddy cake fullback makes the list here.
4. He didn't value the RDE position appropriately. He's on record as a guy who thinks he could find guys to fill this role later in the draft. I'd argue that it's the most important position on the defense. It's why I'm not too heartbroken that he left this year seeing as though there's going to be premium RDE talent at 6 this year.
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But I also don't get the deification of his time here:
I don't sense any deification.. what I see is a guy who was head and shoulders better than anybody we have had in that role since our return.. I see a guy whose drafts were solid if not spectacular... I see a guy who, if replaced, we could easily end up worse rather than better... and we will never know if this is true or not, but I see a guy who I thought was just about ready to go for some big splash in FA after freeing up a lot of money while building a solid nucleus... of course that is speculation...
In short I see a guy who was in the top half of the NFL at his job.. and we haven't had too many of those in ANY capacity since 1999.. so why get rid of him?
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But I also don't get the deification of his time here:
I don't sense any deification.. what I see is a guy who was head and shoulders better than anybody we have had in that role since our return.. I see a guy whose drafts were solid if not spectacular... I see a guy who, if replaced, we could easily end up worse rather than better... and we will never know if this is true or not, but I see a guy who I thought was just about ready to go for some big splash in FA after freeing up a lot of money while building a solid nucleus... of course that is speculation...
In short I see a guy who was in the top half of the NFL at his job.. and we haven't had too many of those in ANY capacity since 1999.. so why get rid of him?
I feel the same way about him that you do but I have to ask. Why isn't he getting one of these GM jobs hat were available this season. Is it possible that teams don't think as highly about him as we do?
I thought he would be one of the first guys hired when we fired him. As of now he is still out of a job.
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I am by no means saying that Gordon doesn't have talent nor am I saying that we shouldn't have taken him. I think part of a GM's job is to have an appreciation of how other teams value a player. Taking Gordon with a 2nd round pick is a good pick but if we could have gotten him with a 6th that would have been better.
It is possible that if we wanted Gordon that we needed to use a 2nd round pick.
The Bills would have taken Gordon..and I'm sure another team would have.
I have no issue with that Heckert did there. I think U guys should know that ole Holmy pulled the strings on the QB's that were drafted because each time,TH had another player ranked at that spot.
Now to the thread title if the Browns are going to a 34 or even show a 43 THEY REALLY need a monster OLB..there are several in this draft.
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I understand your logic but it is impossible to know when another team was going to take the guy you wanted... so I think you have to look at production.. over the long haul is he producing like you would expect a second round WR to produce? If he is, then it was worth the pick regardless of where somebody else was going to take him... because you never know.
Agree that we will never know if any other teams put in a bid on Gordon. And if so what round, but given his "Character issues" and that most people get taken a round or 2 later in the supplemental draft than the regular draft I wouldn't be surprised if their were no other 2nd round bids or 3rd round bids. I know he has produced like a 2nd round pick which makes it a good pick. Just saying the later the round bid we can get him with the better it is. And the better a GM is the better he can optimize this. I think I acknowledged that perhaps this was optimized.
It's a poker game all the GMs are playing. And if we bid a 4th and don't get him then nothing is lost. Just nothing gained. Then we have a little more pressure to sign a free agent this off season and/or draft a Wr in the 1st or 2nd round.
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I never said anything bad about what you wrote... just expanding upon your thought about gordon maybe being a worse pick if we could have gotten him in the 6th instead... while true, we never know where we could have gotten him. we do know a 2nd did it and frankly, I think he put up numbers worthy of being a 2nd round pick.
I agree that we will never know when we could have gotten him. I just didn't get the Kiper reference.
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the teams that were mentioned were the Bills, Cowboys, Bengals and Chargers if I recall correctly.
If Gordon can stay on the road of maturity, he can be a Top 10 WR.
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Heckert picked Gordon. He can't be good for that reason alone.
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Why isn't he getting one of these GM jobs hat were available this season. Is it possible that teams don't think as highly about him as we do?
It's possible. Heckert had scheduled and then cancelled an interview with the Jets.. I guess it's also possible that he's taking a year off or has other plans and isn't pursuing any of these jobs... and the GM searches seem to be a lot less visible than the coaching searches so it's hard to tell who is chasing whom...
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Tom Heckert: 'I knew I'd be gone' when Cleveland Browns CEO Joe Banner came in - exclusive Plain Dealer interview
BEREA, Ohio - Former Browns General Manager Tom Heckert, who was fired this morning along with coach Pat Shurmur, said he knew when CEO Joe Banner took over in October that he'd be gone.
Heckert worked under Banner as GM in Philadelphia, where they helped mold the Eagles into perennial contenders. Heckert left the Eagles to come here and have final authority over all football decisions, a power that coach Andy Reid had in Philly.
"Yes, I knew, just because of the contract situation,'' he said. "I'm sure that's why [Banner] took this job, was to have that [final authority]. I'm assuming that's one of the reasons why, and that's why I did, too, so I understand that.''
Heckert said he never tried to make a case for himself.
"No, no not at all,'' he said. "It was one of those things I knew was going to happen with the situation with my contract. I had final say over everything and that probably wasn't going to be the case here, so either way, it probably wasn't going to work out.''
He said there was never any discussion of him having a reduced role, without final say over all football decisions.
Heckert, who has two years left on his Browns contract, also said he regretted that the firing process took so long, considering that the writing was on the wall since October when owner Jimmy Haslam and Banner took control.
"It's tough no matter what, but it just seems like it kind of dragged on a little bit because we kind of knew what was happening,'' he said. "They basically said they hadn't made up their minds until a week or two ago. But being around people who aren't going to be here, it's uncomfortable for everyone.''
Other highlights of the Heckert interview:
• On interviewing for another job: "Obviously, I'll let this sink in a little bit and see what happens. Fortunately, I have some years left on my contract so I don't have to do anything right away. I want to go into the right situation. I don't want to just jump into somewhere where I don't think has a chance. That's one of the reasons I came here. I thought it would be a great opportunity to build something and if something like that came available, that would be great. But I could do something else. I'd like to be a GM for the right situation, and if that happens, great, but if not, I'm sure I can do a lot of other things too.
• On re-joining Reid, who was fired by the Eagles today: "If that opportunity arose, I'd love it. He's a phenomenal coach and a great person. That would fantastic if that ever happened down the road.''
• On the rest of his personnel staff: "Almost everybody's still under contract. Yeah, they're really great. I think they're going to retain all of the personnel guys, which is great. It's a great group of talented guys.''
• On if they'll retain any of the coaches: "I think they'll wait and see who the new coach is.''
• On if he has feelers for a new job yet: "I haven't really talked to anyone yet. Now that this has happened, I'm sure I'll talk to some people.''
• On how the firing went down this morning: "Jimmy and Joe both came in and they were great. It was a very, very good conversation.''
• On the shape he's leaving the 5-11 Browns in: "Obviously we're still a very, very young team, but I think we're very talented. The offensive and defensive lines are very good, and everyone knows how I feel about the quarterback and the running back. The young receivers, Greg Little, Josh Gordon and Travis Benjamin are all going to be really good. We feel like there's a lot of good young talent on both sides of the ball.''
• On if he thinks the team's poised to take off: "I really do. That's the hardest part of this whole thing. Pat and I both felt next year was going to be a really exciting year for the Browns. Unfortunately we're not going to be a part of it.''
• How disappointing is this: "It's very disappointing. You're in this thing to win and we think we're on the verge of it. We spent a lot of time dealing with these players and developing relationships with these guys. I went out with a few of the players last night. We had a small gathering and it made me feel really good. We had a good time. It's a great team, it really is. This is one of the best locker rooms I've been around in my 20 years. There's no animosity or controversy. They were really fun to be around.''
• On whether he'd require final say elsewhere: "It's important, but it's not a deal-breaker. Obviously I'll make decisions with the head coach. It depends on who the person is. It really does.
• On whether Shurmur will get another head coaching opportunity: "I really, really think he should. I think he deserves it and I think he will. I thought he did a phenomenal job under the circumstances. I don't think anybody in the history of the league had to go through some of the things he had to go through, including a lockout and the sale of the team. I think he's going to be a really good coach.''
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I am by no means saying that Gordon doesn't have talent nor am I saying that we shouldn't have taken him. I think part of a GM's job is to have an appreciation of how other teams value a player. Taking Gordon with a 2nd round pick is a good pick but if we could have gotten him with a 6th that would have been better.
It is possible that if we wanted Gordon that we needed to use a 2nd round pick.
I don't suppose it much matters at this point, but apparently, Heckert felt he was worth the 2nd rounder he used on him and so far, he's been right.
But generally.. Would RGIII be better had he been picked in the 6th round,, no.. it just would have cost a hell of a lot less LOL
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Legend
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But generally.. Would RGIII be better had he been picked in the 6th round,, no.. it just would have cost a hell of a lot less LOL
Exactly.. I'm sure if the Redskins thought they had a real good chance of getting him at 6 they wouldn't have paid a kings ransom to move up to 2 to take him... I'm sure if Heckert really thought he could get Gordan in the 4th, he would have offered a 3rd or 4th.. but in the poker game that is the NFL draft, he had reason to believe that might not be enough and that Gordon was worth a 2nd...
yebat' Putin
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most important part of that whole thing to me: Quote:
On the rest of his personnel staff: "Almost everybody's still under contract. Yeah, they're really great. I think they're going to retain all of the personnel guys, which is great. It's a great group of talented guys.''
#gmstrong
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,959 |
Quote:
Quote:
But generally.. Would RGIII be better had he been picked in the 6th round,, no.. it just would have cost a hell of a lot less LOL
Exactly.. I'm sure if the Redskins thought they had a real good chance of getting him at 6 they wouldn't have paid a kings ransom to move up to 2 to take him... I'm sure if Heckert really thought he could get Gordan in the 4th, he would have offered a 3rd or 4th.. but in the poker game that is the NFL draft, he had reason to believe that might not be enough and that Gordon was worth a 2nd...
Yup,, and like I said,, so far, it looks like a brilliant move.,,
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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