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You enjoy your posting style, I'll enjoy mine. 
I agree with the wart-ridden frog. 
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You enjoy using immature and unclever nicknames?
Like I said, 6 year old.
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There should be an age limit on these boards. No one under the age of 6 should be allowed to post.
You are under the age of 6, right? That would be the only way to explain your immature use of nicknames.
Yeah, that's SO MUCH MORE mature than "Dumbardi".
Hey if Lombardi needs someone to clean his erasers after class, I'll put in a good word for you!
TOAD; I still stand by the assertion that if Banner was so much of a success at his position in Philly, why would his life long friend in Lurie hand over the reigns to everyone esle and leave Banner as the odd man out? That part makes no sense to me.
Secondly, If you look at it, Lurie was a first time owner who convinced Lurie to give him a lot of power in the beginning and the same could be said about Haslam. The shark sees a young fish in the water and siezes control.
I still don't like it one bit. We both know that either hiring Lombardi was either a very stupid move, or he's just a puppet and Banner will be pulling the strings. Is either of those two options what you percieve as the proper structure of an NFL franchise?
I see the Lombardi move as at least circumstantial evidence that Banner wants to hold all of the cards. Something I doubt he had so much power to do in Philly. Maybe to some degree, but he wanted more and I think he got it.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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You enjoy using immature and unclever nicknames?
Like I said, 6 year old.
Obviously we enjoy them more than you do. Is that what you do in class? Drone on and on about everything someone says?
Nagging at fellow posters about their posting style certainly doesn't seem very manly.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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You enjoy using immature and unclever nicknames?
Like I said, 6 year old.
I"ve not ever been a fan of stupid names like Dumbardi or Leon or any of that crap.
But frankly, I've given up trying to change the mind set of those that think they are Rome Clones.
If that's the level of their maturity, I've decided it's not my job or my business to try and change them. I just won't allow myself to completely respect or accept their clearly clouded view of someone that is demonstrated by their inability to use their real name.
And those that do it, don't respect me anyway so, there isn't much love lost.. I'm good with that.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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everytime someone mentions "leon" on this board I end up watching budweiser commercials on youtube  There has been quite a few nicknames over the years...there probably should be a thread with a list...lol most things are laugh or cry for me...i'd rather laugh
Attitude is everything....FEAR THE ELF!!!
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In this case, I think dumbardi is more an accurate portrayal of someone's player personnel history than a childish nickname.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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TOAD; I still stand by the assertion that if Banner was so much of a success at his position in Philly, why would his life long friend in Lurie hand over the reigns to everyone esle and leave Banner as the odd man out? That part makes no sense to me.
If you read the article I'd posted, Banner had already planned his exit strategy from the Eagles. He was already grooming Roseman to take over the reigns, as he had plans to go on to something bigger and better.
Setting that aside, all regime's come to an end. Eventually, Banner and Reid either had to win a Super Bowl or they had to go. Lurie had a fantastic run of success over the span of years with those two, but their time was running out. Lurie had to start making changes somewhere, so the easy target was Banner, who wasn't liked by the fans or the media. After that, the next guy to go would be Reid. If things continue to falter, the next guy to go will be Roseman. So on and so forth.
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I still don't like it one bit. We both know that either hiring Lombardi was either a very stupid move, or he's just a puppet and Banner will be pulling the strings. Is either of those two options what you percieve as the proper structure of an NFL franchise?
There is a third option, which is that Dumbardi actually has some legit knowledge.
I'm not buying that, but it IS an option.
And no, I don't like that move. I didn't like it when it was proposed, and I don't like it now. But of the 4 direct football hirings, that's the only one I don't like. I really dig the Chud hiring, more than Kelly or even their first choice, Saban. I really REALLY dig the hiring of Turner. And I really like Horton.
(Now I will say that I believe the hiring of Chud and Turner was a combo package, though you'll likely never get anyone to admit it.)
I didn't like Holmgren pulling Heckert's strings, but I don't know that Banner is going to play the same absolute trump card that Holmgren would pull.
I don't like Dumbardi and his poor resume coming here, but I do respect the other minds in the building, so I'm willing to wait and see. If Banner had the input that I now believe he had, I'm far more confident in his abilities than I was when he was first hired.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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..... You are the one who emphaticly stated that Banner would have no control over player personnel. How's that example workin' for ya' now?
And you were the one that said he had no control over football moves in Philly.
How's THAT workin' for you now?
As I'd said in previous weeks, I was working on the premise that he did not have any control over personnel in Philly, and didn't believe he'd have any here because of that. Since then it's come to light that he actually did have some control over there, so you and the rest of the people afraid of Banner making football decisions should be somewhat relieved.
As for Lombardi, oh well, you can't win'em all. 
Chud, Turner, and Horton are GREAT hires IMHO. Dumbardi makes a loss.
I'll take 3 outa 4 any day.
So I take it as still being in Banner's camp? since you didn't respond the last time I asked this? I'd like to hear BEFORE something good or bad happens. Since your fence riding has become a running gag around here, I'd want to make sure if I got it right what you said. There's also a predictions thread running...just saying
With your seemingly high opinion of Banner, considering your recent track record of "predictions", I'll probably have to drop 1of my last 2% of hope too now
...oh, and it's more like 1 out of 2 since it's coaching on one side and FO/scouting whatever the puppet will be doing, on the other. Not sure you can coach up/make up a poor job of talent replenishment and vice versa
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So I take it as still being in Banner's camp? since you didn't respond the last time I asked this?
Contrary to what you may believe, your questions aren't my first priority. However, maybe I did answer directly, and even if I didn't, it's apparent I'm still a Banner supporter...you know...if any math geniuses are out that can realize if I like 3 of his 4 moves, it means I still approve.
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With your seemingly high opinion of Banner, considering your recent track record of "predictions", I'll probably have to drop 1of my last 2% of hope too now
And what track-record is that? What does that even mean? Give examples.
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...oh, and it's more like 1 out of 2 since it's coaching on one side and FO/scouting whatever the puppet will be doing, on the other. Not sure you can coach up/make up a poor job of talent replenishment and vice versa
Look, I know you can't type, but for God's sake, take the time to hunt-and-peck your way to legibility, and ask me that so I can understand it.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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If you read the article I'd posted, Banner had already planned his exit strategy from the Eagles. He was already grooming Roseman to take over the reigns, as he had plans to go on to something bigger and better.
toad...so it's your choice to believe this theory that Banner planned to leave Philly after the 2011 season and was grooming Roseman to take over his position?
Anyone that has followed the pro game, for even a little while, knows that it is hard for some of the boys working in the front office, to tell the truth about events that might be viewed as a negative for the franchise...so they make up some cover story to present the franchise in the best light.
The talking points Lurie, Banner and Reid spewed at their June 7, 2012 presser did attempt to paint a picture of an orderly transfer of power with Banner choosing to leave. But there is another point of view, that many see as being closer to the truth...
...the long standing power struggle between Andy Reid and Joe Banner came to a head around March of 2012 and Reid went to Eagles owner Jeff Lurie and gave him a choice...either Banner goes or Reid was going to quit.
There were stories written in March (2012) about the feud between Banner and Reid reaching a critical point..but many in the media did not pursue the story.
Below are two stories with dates in March 2012...
...there were several stories written after the Eagles announcement in June, with the point of view that Banner was fired after losing the power struggle with Reid and was forced out, losing all power over contracts, salary cap and any personnel matters where his opinion might have been sought.
It should also be noted, with Banner losing power before the draft, he probably had little or no input in Eagles 2012 draft.
NFL notes:Andy Reid almost quit?
Sunday, March 25, 2012
Coach Andy Reid threatened to quit?
The Philadelphia Eagles were, in fact, interested in Peyton Manning?
Both things happened, the Los Angeles Times reported Friday.
However, not long after the piece was picked up by the Philly media and spread like wildfire, Reid uncharacteristically released a statement essentially disputing the sourced claims.
In the article, "two NFL insiders" said the Eagles' coach was prepared to leave the team if he wasn’t given more control over personnel.
Reid’s response: "I have had final say on personnel matters for quite some time here and that’s never been an issue or a point of contention.
"Our front office works very well together and that’s one of our strengths."
In 2001, two years after becoming head coach, Reid was named vice president of football operations. The added responsibility came in the wake of executive Tom Modrak’s firing. Since then, Eagles owner Jeffrey Lurie repeatedly has asserted Reid’s authority in football matters.
Still, there always has been some murkiness in how decisions were made within the Eagles’ power structure, especially regarding contracts.
Team president Joe Banner generally has handled the money side of the ledger, although Howie Roseman has taken on more responsibility in contract negotiations since being named general manager in 2010.
But who decides how much a player is worth? Is it Reid or Banner/Roseman?
The Times reported that Reid wanted to "jump in" the Manning sweepstakes, which could be interpreted as being considerably more than looking "into everything, as all teams do," as Reid said in his statement.
web page
SAM FARMER / ON THE NFL
League has one of its biggest weeks for off-season news, and here are a few more tidbits.
March 22, 2012|Sam Farmer
•Two NFL insiders, speaking on the condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the topic, said that Philadelphia Coach Andy Reid was ready to walk away from the Eagles if he didn't get more personnel control, and now he has it. We've seen a flurry of decisive moves by the Eagles in recent weeks, including finally cutting a blockbuster deal with receiver DeSean Jackson; extending two good soldiers, defensive end Trent Cole and right tackle Todd Herremans, outbidding the Ravens to keep guard Evan Mathis; and trading for Pro Bowl linebacker DeMeco Ryans.
Something else about the Eagles: Reid wanted to jump in the Peyton Manning sweepstakes, despite the signing of Michael Vick to a six-year, $100-million contract last season. Talks never got too serious, the insiders say, because Manning didn't like the idea of playing against his brother Eli, quarterback of the New York Giants, at least twice a season.
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FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
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So Reid wanted more control.
Got it.
The Eagles sucked.
He got fired.
How is that a negative on Banner?
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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osu...so you agree...this story that Banner chose to leave on his own accord is a bunch of BS.
...at least we have that much straightened out !
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
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I've literally never agreed with anything you've ever said.
I'm asking. According to your theory. How is it a negative on Banner.
Answer a freaking question. That's all I ever ask.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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So Reid wanted more control.
Got it.
The Eagles sucked.
He got fired.
How is that a negative on Banner?
Well... uh... um... I guess he got fired before Reid?
I'm not sold on Banner but he can't be worse than Holmgren at running the show and he could very well be better than Heckert. Coincidentally, Heckert is still looking for work after canceling an interview for the Jets. I guess he didn't like the damned cap mess that he would have there.
If he was as smart as many think that he is, he could ask for a mulligan on the first season because of that and just earn a paycheck to evaluate everything and truly begin with year 2. But, he flat out refused to take the job in New York. Beggars can't be choosers.
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So Reid wanted more control.
Got it.
The Eagles sucked.
He got fired.
How is that a negative on Banner?
Well... uh... um... I guess he got fired before Reid?
I'm not sold on Banner but he can't be worse than Holmgren at running the show and he could very well be better than Heckert. Coincidentally, Heckert is still looking for work after canceling an interview for the Jets. I guess he didn't like the damned cap mess that he would have there.
If he was as smart as many think that he is, he could ask for a mulligan on the first season because of that and just earn a paycheck to evaluate everything and truly begin with year 2. But, he flat out refused to take the job in New York. Beggars can't be choosers.
Heckert isn't in a rush, he's still getting paid by the Browns...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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So Reid wanted more control.
Got it.
The Eagles sucked.
He got fired.
How is that a negative on Banner?
Well... uh... um... I guess he got fired before Reid?
I'm not sold on Banner but he can't be worse than Holmgren at running the show and he could very well be better than Heckert. Coincidentally, Heckert is still looking for work after canceling an interview for the Jets. I guess he didn't like the damned cap mess that he would have there.
If he was as smart as many think that he is, he could ask for a mulligan on the first season because of that and just earn a paycheck to evaluate everything and truly begin with year 2. But, he flat out refused to take the job in New York. Beggars can't be choosers.
Heckert isn't in a rush, he's still getting paid by the Browns...
Maybe not. There could have been a buyout clause
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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So Reid wanted more control.
Got it.
The Eagles sucked.
He got fired.
How is that a negative on Banner?
Well... uh... um... I guess he got fired before Reid?
I'm not sold on Banner but he can't be worse than Holmgren at running the show and he could very well be better than Heckert. Coincidentally, Heckert is still looking for work after canceling an interview for the Jets. I guess he didn't like the damned cap mess that he would have there.
If he was as smart as many think that he is, he could ask for a mulligan on the first season because of that and just earn a paycheck to evaluate everything and truly begin with year 2. But, he flat out refused to take the job in New York. Beggars can't be choosers.
Heckert isn't in a rush, he's still getting paid by the Browns...
So is Shurmur and so is Holmgren. Both have tried to get gainful employment though.  Shurmur actually landed with the Eagles!
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toad...so it's your choice to believe this theory that Banner planned to leave Philly after the 2011 season and was grooming Roseman to take over his position?
Incorrect.
I said nothing about leaving after 2011 on his own volition.
I believe they were grooming Roseman to take over eventually. I believe that due to the amount of time that Lurie's regime had been together without winning a Super Bowl, creating a serious amount of pressure for everyone involved, that had they failed, people would be exiting the organization and doing it quickly. So the first was Banner with Reid following him quickly the very next year.
I believe the sentiment that Lurie felt the pressure to remove Banner from the equation because of how he was viewed, regardless of his business acumen.
I believe that Banner was ready to go on to a situation where he could expand his career.
I believe the sentiment that Lurie gave Reid everything he wanted, so that once and for all he would either prove he was the right guy to run the entire show in Philly or he wasn't, much like how Lerner gave Butch Davis all the power that he wanted.
What I believe is that the relationship between Lurie, Banner, and Reid had become strained because of the mounting pressure to win it all after all the years of being so close combined with the failure to meet expectations with Vick at the helm. All three knew they were about to split the sheets if things didn't go greatly. They did what they had to do, which was to double-down and go all-in to try and win the Super Bowl because anything less than that would mean the end. So it didn't happen, and Banner went first. Then it still didn't happen with Reid being given everything, so he went next.
The "black and white" version says Banner was fired because he failed. The version that I believe...the version which exhibits a myriad of shades of gray...says all three people knew the end was near and were making preparations for it.
That's what I believe.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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No. Apparently when lurie talked about banner he was lying but when he talked about roseman he was telling the absolute truth
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This is my own personal theory as the lerner/haslam timeline doesn't mesh.
Banner does a lot of contract work for the NFL. He knows all the owners through that work. When Lerner decided to sell the team, he inquired to the NFL and Banner contacted Haslam.
Banner stepped away from the Eagles and helped guide Jimmy into ownership. He also contacted the best man at his wedding, Michael Lombardi.
Lombardi began trashing Heckerts draft and everything Shurmur and Heckert was doing. He also began his radio tour across Cleveland.
It is kinda obvious when Banner becomes linked to the Browns 6 months before any supposed thought of selling the team ever happened. Lombardi starts his media blitz on Cleveland before Banner was hired.
This did not happen over night and I believe Chud was a Lombardi hire. Michael Lombardi was blown away at how Chud adapted his scheme to hide Cam's deficiencies.
This thing didnt just happen. It began before Banner left the Eagles. Haslam and Lombardi wanted Nick Saban but it didnt happen. Banner wanted Chip Kelly and that didnt happen (I honestly think Haslam wasnt blown away with him anyway).
Lombardi helped Chud get the job here. then the Magic happened, watch the left hand while the right hand steals your watch. Norv is announced as OC. Lombardi announced as whatever. Horton announced as DC.
This is a very media savvy owner and president. I think they played this thing as good as they could have.
Come on they have already convinced about 40% of the Browns fan base that Lombardi is good enough to be given a second chance and this is a guy most ranked only slightly better than Modell.
The bright side is they aren't dummies. They put together an elite level staff led by one of the best young offensive minds in all of football. I don't like Banner and i despise Lombardi but we have to give them credit for what they have done. I am impressed.
I also think changing the uniform in 2014 is a great marketing ploy and we will see a major change to the uniform and once the fans adjust to it, we will probably see a logo slapped on the helmet. They know how to market.
Hell they made a big event out of selling the naming rights lol. Haslam makes a ton of money and they sell it to the fans as a great day for the Browns and their fans. Umm it was a great day for Jimmy Haslam.
If they can put that kind of effort into building the roster, we will be in the Super bowl in 2 years.
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I don't think they'll get touch the helmet.
You make money selling new jerseys.
You don't really make anything changing the helmet.
Any new logo you make goes on gear regardless.
Not changing the helmet I think was part of the sale actually.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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I believe the sentiment that Lurie gave Reid everything he wanted, so that once and for all he would either prove he was the right guy to run the entire show in Philly or he wasn't, much like how Lerner gave Butch Davis all the power that he wanted.
...and you talk about "black and white" lol
So, if Reid "won" the power struggle as you seem to believe, the 2012 goes all to him and Roseman, right? Well, that draft was BY FAR already better than the 2010 and 2011 drafts, where Banner had the most personnel power in his time in Philly with Heckert gone and Roseman as his puppet GM and Reid family distracted....so whatever "input" he had in that time it looks like firing him was "addition by substraction"...because you're the one making this "black and white" by saying 2012 was on Reid since "he got what he wanted", but the Eagles didn't suck in 2012 because of the 2012 offseason....it was a result of the previous 2 offseasons where they added poor prospects and signed over-priced FAs.
Lurie is on record saying he took notes on who in the building wanted and went after who in FA and the draft...with that and than firing Banner, he all but said he was the weakest link in evaluating talent, but you seem to opt to believe that he'd cut a 40+yo friendship over some PR move and kept his underling who BY NAME was the GM and Heckert successor, so he was an easy cut just by saying "he isn't as good as Heckert", then Lurie comes out and says that Roseman was a puppet....so, if he takes notes and knows who wanted who, why did he fire Banner, who wasn't even supposed to be in player personnel by definition over the "puppet" GM and Reid, who you seem to think had all the power back then?...it just makes no sense, your story is as believable as T'eo's...it's conspiracy at his best to make everything fit
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No this just didn't happen over night like anyone would like us to think.
As soon as Banner's name came up, Lombardo's name did..and then all these remarks he made and the rumors came out very quickly..people knew he was linked to Banner.
It was a sham the way this went down.
I still want to know who these top people Hassalhoff spoke to about Lombardo..and I honestly believe he never spoke to them till after the guy was in the fold.
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All Pro
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everytime someone mentions "leon" on this board I end up watching budweiser commercials on youtube
aww stop it! now i have to watch them too!
Last edited by dawg531; 01/21/13 11:52 AM.
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No this just didn't happen over night like anyone would like us to think.
As soon as Banner's name came up, Lombardo's name did..and then all these remarks he made and the rumors came out very quickly..people knew he was linked to Banner.
It was a sham the way this went down.
I still want to know who these top people Hassalhoff spoke to about Lombardo..and I honestly believe he never spoke to them till after the guy was in the fold.
Mourg, etc, Now we are getting some better thinking. Right or wrong -this is what we should be trying to understand! . Lombardi is "meh" others good, but what will happen next with Banner. Is he petty or smart? That's what i want to know. Is he good or is he Savage?
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So Reid wanted more control.
Got it.
The Eagles sucked.
He got fired.
How is that a negative on Banner?
Well... uh... um... I guess he got fired before Reid?
I'm not sold on Banner but he can't be worse than Holmgren at running the show and he could very well be better than Heckert. Coincidentally, Heckert is still looking for work after canceling an interview for the Jets. I guess he didn't like the damned cap mess that he would have there.
If he was as smart as many think that he is, he could ask for a mulligan on the first season because of that and just earn a paycheck to evaluate everything and truly begin with year 2. But, he flat out refused to take the job in New York. Beggars can't be choosers.
Heckert isn't in a rush, he's still getting paid by the Browns...
So is Shurmur and so is Holmgren. Both have tried to get gainful employment though. Shurmur actually landed with the Eagles!
Shurmur was a very solid hire by Kelly. A veteran NFL coach to aid him in his transition...and to develop the QBs. That will more than likely be his responsibilities. It's not as if he will call plays and run his offense.
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If you read the article I'd posted, Banner had already planned his exit strategy from the Eagles. He was already grooming Roseman to take over the reigns, as he had plans to go on to something bigger and better.
Well there are most certainly articles that spin this story in two seperate directions as you already well know. So I won't get into a peeing match with you some might call "article wars".
Even though when looking up a lot of sources on the subject, the "company line" is your side of things. Nobody wants a PR nightmare, however, as we can see now with the jabs back and forth, it certainly doesn't look like the cozy little transition you suggest.
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Setting that aside, all regime's come to an end. Eventually, Banner and Reid either had to win a Super Bowl or they had to go. Lurie had a fantastic run of success over the span of years with those two, but their time was running out. Lurie had to start making changes somewhere, so the easy target was Banner, who wasn't liked by the fans or the media.
So what you have seemed to promote as "the brains of the operation", who was so very instrumental in building this franchise and his life long friend was "the easy target"? For some reason that kind of sounds like you're talking in circles here.
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After that, the next guy to go would be Reid. If things continue to falter, the next guy to go will be Roseman. So on and so forth.
So on one hand Lurie has had great success, and on the other hand you suggest he gut the entire operation that helped him to reach that success?
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There is a third option, which is that Dumbardi actually has some legit knowledge.
I'm not buying that, but it IS an option.
Well tht's one point we can certainly agree on!
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And no, I don't like that move. I didn't like it when it was proposed, and I don't like it now. But of the 4 direct football hirings, that's the only one I don't like. I really dig the Chud hiring, more than Kelly or even their first choice, Saban. I really REALLY dig the hiring of Turner. And I really like Horton.
(Now I will say that I believe the hiring of Chud and Turner was a combo package, though you'll likely never get anyone to admit it.)
So let me get this straight..... Had they have gotten either of the two "they really wanted" (Saban/Kelly), you would have disapproved. Yet since we ended up with Chud/Turner by default, their moves were brilliant? Are you really hearing yourself here?
Since they didn't get their first two choices which would have sucked, I guess you could give them credit for option #3 or #4. That doesn't sound like very stable ground to stand on, but hey, I think that's about the only thing you have to stand on here.
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I didn't like Holmgren pulling Heckert's strings, but I don't know that Banner is going to play the same absolute trump card that Holmgren would pull.
Well I don't think it will take very long until you'll have to be putting a spin cycle on heavy duty to try to disclaim that he's doing that.
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I don't like Dumbardi and his poor resume coming here, but I do respect the other minds in the building, so I'm willing to wait and see. If Banner had the input that I now believe he had, I'm far more confident in his abilities than I was when he was first hired.
So let's see, you're putting everyone "in the building". The problem is, you have those "on the sidelines" and those "in the building".
Chud, Norv and Horton are "on the sidelines".
I'm not sure if Chud was choice #3,#4 or #5, but he obviously wasn't in the top 2. Even the CFL HC got look #3 and went elsewhere.
So your version of truthiness is that we have some brilliance in the FO because they had epic fails on their top two or possibly three choices at HC and had to settle for people we both like?
So you feel Lombardi,( who you yourself admit is very underqualified ), and their 3rd, 4th or 5th choice at running the sidelines isn't going to be trumped by Banner?
Even you yourself admit had they gotten their way and either of their top two choices, it would have been an epic fail according to your own belief. I totally agree with you there.
The difference between us seems to be you wish to give them some grand credit for hitting on option C or D rather than looking at their grand plan in the beginning and holding them accountable for that.
Sorry, but giving someone credit for failing to mess things up as their "plan", and getting someone much better "by default", isn't something I find to be all that exciting. And to believe they plan to turn over the reigns to option 3 or 4, or Lombardi for that matter I find to be more than slightly unconvincing.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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This is a very media savvy owner and president. I think they played this thing as good as they could have.
Come on they have already convinced about 40% of the Browns fan base that Lombardi is good enough to be given a second chance and this is a guy most ranked only slightly better than Modell.
So the fact that it was widely speculated that both Banner and Lombardi were going to land here months in advance of doing so make them media savvy? To me that's like saying if you look into a guys eyes when playing poker and can tell he's bluffing, that makes him a good poker player.
And I'd sure like to know where you get that "40% convinced" number you're throwing out because that's not even close to what I've been seeing or hearing.
If it even were to be true, it would simply mean a lot of our fan base are a bunch of naive, mindless people who can easily be lead around by the nose with no ability to look at a resume' and come to a logical conclusion.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Maybe not. There could have been a buyout clause
Inside the NFL, the Browns' reputation is something like this: "You probably won't win there, but you will get paid." The Browns are paying off the final season of Eric Mangini's four-year contract -- he was here in 2009-10. Now, they will pay former team president Mike Holmgren, Heckert and Shurmur for the next two years. The latest firings will cost the Browns an estimated $24 million.
Heckert To Be Paid For Two More Years
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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If it even were to be true, it would simply mean a lot of our fan base are a bunch of naive, mindless people who can easily be lead around by the nose with no ability to look at a resume' and come to a logical conclusion.
There was a poll on cleveland.com and last I checked it was right at 40% saying he should he given a second chance. There was 55% saying once is enough.
The media savvy comments is about how they worked Lombardi's coming. They spread the rumors from the unnamed source to prepare the fan base for the arrival of Lombardi. Lombardi became the fun loving voice on the radio and tv that loved the Browns.
Then when they finally announce it, they slot him between hiring Chud, Norv slip in Lombardi then Horton immediately after. They go out and get recommendations from well known NFL people that Lombardi hasnt screwed over. I think there was 5 of them lol.
They spun it to perfection.
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They spun it to perfection.
Absolutely spot on
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Just clicking.... You know why I think things are going to go poorly for the new regime? Drama. From day 1. The structure of the front office, the personalities, the rooki-ness of it all just lends itself to mistakes getting over amplified, communication mixups, lack of clarity of who's responsible for what and the inevitable finger pointing, blame games and politics... ie. drama.
Is there much drama within the front offices of the Steelers, Pats, Ravens, Packers, Giants... you know, the teams that are always at least pretty good? Not much. You look at the people involved and by and large how their roles are defined, that they work within their expertise and they know how to keep it cool.
We crave stability with this team but to my eye we're trying to build something solid on very shaky ground. "Creative" business structures usually translates to failing business structures. That Reid quote about needing everyone in the building pulling in the same direction is spot on. If you have operators in the building that are playing power politics and looking out for their own gains before the good of the team you get... drama, mediocrity and instability. Poorly defined responsibility/accountability structure + known abrasive & political personalities usually equals disaster. I hope I'm wrong but to my eye so far I don't think I am.
Last edited by 10YrOvernightSuccess; 01/21/13 01:38 PM.
"Team Chemistry No Match for Team Biology" (Onion Sports Headline)
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They spun it to perfection.
Absolutely spot on
Perfect... except it didn't work. 
"Team Chemistry No Match for Team Biology" (Onion Sports Headline)
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Shurmur was a very solid hire by Kelly.
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A veteran NFL coach to aid him in his transition...and to develop the QBs.
What makes you think that Shurmur can develop QBs? I'm curious to know of the empirical evidence you're using to come to such a conclusion.
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That will more than likely be his responsibilities. It's not as if he will call plays and run his offense.
Well, that's obvious though. After watching what Shurmur did with the Browns, I wouldn't expect that he'd even let Shurmur see the playbook.
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Is that a serious question? Did you forget he was the QB coach in Philly from 2002-2008? ---- "On the offensive side of the ball, Pat Shurmur was in attendance and appeared to be part of the Eagles’ contingent. On the surface, Shurmur would seem like an odd fit as potential offensive coordinator, given that his background is in the west coast offense. Kelly was asked if he is looking for people similar to himself. “Oh, God no,” he said, before the reporter had even finished the question. “I think you need a lot of different personalities. I think if not, everything’s the same. And I think for you to flourish, there’s a lot of different things you need. You need really, really smart people. I think you need people that are dedicated. And sometimes, you need people that are just a little bit off too, so it’s a rare combination. But I don’t want everybody to be the same because I don’t think we’d grow as a group. I think we need to challenge each other.” ---- http://www.phillymag.com/eagles/2013/01/21/is-kelly-closer-to-finalizing-coaching-staff/
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Well, that's the complete opposite of what Holmgren fed us when he was here... guess we might as well watch and see how it turns out.
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Even though when looking up a lot of sources on the subject, the "company line" is your side of things.
The article I posted that stated Lurie fired Banner because he felt he was losing the fans wasn't a "company line" article. That was a completely unbiased writer.
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Nobody wants a PR nightmare, however, as we can see now with the jabs back and forth, it certainly doesn't look like the cozy little transition you suggest.
I never suggested there was a cozy transition. I stated Banner was eyeing his way out. I stated the end was near if they didn't win a Super Bowl, and had to push all their chips to the table to try and win it. They didn't, he got fired. Pretty simple. What I suggested was that Banner was looking to leave no matter what, so grooming Roseman was part of that plan.
Same thing went for Reid. They were out of time. It was win the Super Bowl or lose your job. Making plans for the next stop isn't at all far-fetched. It's rather pretty simple and prudent planning.
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So what you have seemed to promote as "the brains of the operation", who was so very instrumental in building this franchise and his life long friend was "the easy target"? For some reason that kind of sounds like you're talking in circles here.
It seems that you and Dj can't get past this idea that they were Bestie's, and therefore Banner was untouchable.
The article I posted...from an unbiased source...stated quite clearly that Lurie felt he was losing the fans so he chose to cut Banner lose. It was an easy call. The fans hated Banner but loved Reid. If you want to keep the fans, you fire the one they don't like.
Elementary.
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So on one hand Lurie has had great success, and on the other hand you suggest he gut the entire operation that helped him to reach that success?
You don't see that? 
No regime lasts forever. It was time for that regime to win or be broken up. It happens all the time in every sport known to man.
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So let me get this straight..... Had they have gotten either of the two "they really wanted" (Saban/Kelly), you would have disapproved.
I didn't say that. You said that.
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I didn't like Holmgren pulling Heckert's strings, but I don't know that Banner is going to play the same absolute trump card that Holmgren would pull.
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Well I don't think it will take very long until you'll have to be putting a spin cycle on heavy duty to try to disclaim that he's doing that.
There's a fundamental difference.
Holmgren had flat-out said the drafts belonged to Heckert. But he lied, they didn't.
Banner has said he wants consensus, and that he's the tie-breaker.
Those are two very different structures. Of course since nobody knows exactly how this will be structured, it's impossible for anyone to accurately say how things will go.
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So let's see, you're putting everyone "in the building". The problem is, you have those "on the sidelines" and those "in the building".
Chud, Norv and Horton are "on the sidelines".
 Semantics? Really?
Chud is going to have input, and unlike any other OC that the Browns would have hired, Norv Turner is going to influence Chud. You can bet that Chud and Turner were a package deal, and because of that, they work hand-in-hand, so if Chud likes a guy, Norv will probably like the guy.
But since they are on the "sideline" they won't have a say, right?
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So you feel Lombardi,( who you yourself admit is very underqualified ), and their 3rd, 4th or 5th choice at running the sidelines isn't going to be trumped by Banner?
Nobody can pretend to know how Banner has this thing set up. Not me, not Mac, not Tony Grossi, not Barak Obama, not Nell Carter, not Porky Pig, and not you.
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The difference between us seems to be you wish to give them some grand credit for hitting on option C or D rather than looking at their grand plan in the beginning and holding them accountable for that.
Accountable for...what, exactly? They haven't done anything yet, and in spite of what people think, they don't know the entire story. All people know is what the F'ed up media has told them, and as we've seen ad-nauseum this off-season, the media doesn't know jack.
No, I'm not going to hold them accountable for moves that I don't know they made. They can't actually BE held accountable until they make moves and see results.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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The article I posted that stated Lurie fired Banner because he felt he was losing the fans wasn't a "company line" article. That was a completely unbiased writer.
I'm starting to think you're an attorney. Let me re-prase... The articles you post are ones that compliment the company line.
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It seems that you and Dj can't get past this idea that they were Bestie's, and therefore Banner was untouchable.
I can't speak for dj. What I don't buy into is his "bestie" was first in line to get the axe, no.
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The article I posted...from an unbiased source...stated quite clearly that Lurie felt he was losing the fans so he chose to cut Banner lose. It was an easy call. The fans hated Banner but loved Reid. If you want to keep the fans, you fire the one they don't like.
Winning keeps the fans.
Elementary.
I'm sure that's what our current FO's plans are. Or do you think they hired Lombardi to "keep the fans"?
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Banner has said he wants consensus, and that he's the tie-breaker.
Those are two very different structures. Of course since nobody knows exactly how this will be structured, it's impossible for anyone to accurately say how things will go.
Sure we do. Banner is being honest he'll be pulling the strings unlike Holmgren did. You sat right there and claimed Holmgren was dishonest about it but Banner explained it.
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Semantics? Really?
Chud is going to have input, and unlike any other OC that the Browns would have hired, Norv Turner is going to influence Chud. You can bet that Chud and Turner were a package deal, and because of that, they work hand-in-hand, so if Chud likes a guy, Norv will probably like the guy.
But since they are on the "sideline" they won't have a say, right?
Either Banner lied and won't be the "tiebreaker" (decider) or he will be. Either hiring Lombardi in his official capacity is for real, or it's a sham.
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Nobody can pretend to know how Banner has this thing set up. Not me, not Mac, not Tony Grossi, not Barak Obama, not Nell Carter, not Porky Pig, and not you.
No, all we can go by is what he told us and who he hired for what jobs.
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Accountable for...what, exactly? They haven't done anything yet, and in spite of what people think, they don't know the entire story. All people know is what the F'ed up media has told them, and as we've seen ad-nauseum this off-season, the media doesn't know jack.
They went hard after Kelly and failed. They hired a PP guy and yet you claim we don't know what his role is. I hold them accountable so far for Lombardi. A guy you know as well as I do is totally unqualified for the position.
I'm glad they landed the fourth guy on their list since the other 3 got jobs don't won't give them credit for having chud listed below the other ones on their list.
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No, I'm not going to hold them accountable
I can see that.
Banner already said who will have the final say...... Banner. And he has already hired his boy in Lombardi to run the personnel end. Or is it now the coaches?
So either he's lying just like you accused Holmgren of doing and those two aren't the top dogs in the hunt when it comes to the draft......... or they are.
You choose.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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It seems that you and Dj can't get past this idea that they were Bestie's, and therefore Banner was untouchable.
Fwiw, I already debunked that myth, as Roseman was at least as "suspect" to the fans as Banner, since he was a ) Banner's puppet and b) Heckert's successor, who, as here, had many fans for his work and was well respected, so replacing him was no easy job to take
So, if this was a PR move to appease the fans, the easy move would have been to ax Roseman, who BY TITLE was the GM...he was the easiest target in the building AND had fan suspicion to go with. As I said, your theory makes little to no sense, it's a conspiracy theory timbered to make Banner a holy cow, so nothing new for those well versed in your rhetoric
Keep ignoring what Lurie said about making notes for years WHO in the building wanted WHO.
It's strange Toad, the way this unfolded and the FO setup was exactly what NOBODY wanted in here, even you I'm sure....so now that it's here, you're still defending this mess with "nobody knows the REAL set up of this"....you've hitched your cart to that weasel and now just can't let go, huh? To proud to admit to have swung and missed at everything in this process
Banner promised a STRONG HC with personnel knowledge OR a STRONG GM...he delivered neither. Guy deserves to be bashed for this "setup", "consensus" whatever the power ranks are...because it's shabby any way you look at this from a talent evaluation standpoint.
You know you're the lawyer of a lost cause when the best you can say is "nobody knows what the real setup is"...it's as "good" an argument as "do you have inside knowledge or work in the FO?" or "you don't know crap or else you would work in the NFL"...funny thing is your boy's buddy, Lombardi, pulled that one off to a fan already 2 years ago lol, already having his "Go root for Buffalo" moment
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