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People on this board are very knowledgeable I will say that. But the way I look at our Defense, is this not a huge transition as some of the posters say.
OLB- Sheard (can he make that transition, do not know)
ILB- Jackson, and JMJ- not bad( I think JMJ played outside in the 3-4 at Nevada)
OLB- Okay a major need Draft at six
LDE- Winn or Rucker, not the best but will do
NT- Rubin (stud) Taylor( good)
RDE- Who am I missing(Drinking beer) Hughes(shed some weight) Sanford- weak need help
So is the transition two to three years, hardly a couple of FA's and we are fine. The question is who will be out there.
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All Pro
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I love the hire. I was in the minority here and wasn't a huge Juaron fan. I thought he was what he has been his entire coaching career... middle of the pack.
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Legend
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Joe haden is excited about the hire...
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I am too.
Horton has defenses that attack from the start of the game to the final snap of the game.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Legend
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Don't hate or love getting Chud
Love getting Norv
Love getting Horton
Getting Lombardi almost F's it all up
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I like the hire. I'm not thrilled about going back to the 34, but we have the DL to do it (don't know why people think we don't). Rubin, Taylor, and Wynn/Hughes is a pretty good 34 DL. The problem is the backers.........only player who can start as a backer in a 34 is DQ (and he is a much better 43 than 34 backer imo). Sheard is a maybe at best, but outside of that we have two pretty big holes to fill. So assuming we hit on one of them at 6 (Moore or Mingo) then we could probably trot JMJ out there next year and see if he can make it. If Sheard and JMJ aren't making the cut you upgrade the next year and your good.
Imo we are essentially no worse off by switching D schemes. We were in dire need of a pass rusher either way (43 DE or a 34 OLB...same difference). The secondary is in need of a CB and a safety either way as well. We also were going to have to upgrade the LBs because outside of DQ we have very little back there in regards to known talent. The only draw back I see is Sheard might be a wasted pick now, and I think he has potential. I wonder if we might trade him to a 43 team and sign a FA OLB with experience to help with the young guys??
Against logic,the most effective armor is willful ignorance.
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BEREA, Ohio -- Browns new defensive coordinator Ray Horton told the Plain Dealer today he's "ecstatic'' to be joining the Brown despite being passed over for head coaching opportunities.
Horton, 52, interviewed for the Browns head coaching vacancy on Jan. 1 and would've loved that job, but is very excited to become head coach Rob Chudzinski's first defensive coordinator.
Horton's hiring gives the Browns three extremely strong coordinators, including Norv Turner on offense and Chris Tabor on special teams. The Browns were very impressed with Horton right from the start.
Cleveland Browns coach Rob Chudzinski talks about his new offensive coordinator Norv Turner
Rob Chudzinski, the new head coach of the Cleveland Browns, talked about the hiring of offensive coordinator Norv Turner, whom Chudzinski worked under in San Diego.
Watch video
Horton will also be reunited with Turner, who gave him his first coaching job in football, with the Redskins in 1994, when Turner was head coach there. Horton also played for the Cowboys when Turner was offensive coordinator there.
"Norv is one of the pre-eminent callers of the game of football,'' said Horton, who added that the Browns will have excellent offenses and defenses. Horton replaces Dick Jauron, who was popular with the players here. He ran a 3-4 in Arizona, but said he's open to anything here.
"I'm a coach of men, whether it's a 3-4, 4-3, 5-2,'' he said.
Horton became available when Bruce Arians was named Cardinals head coach on Thursday. Horton has interviewed for that job twice and was miffed to be passed over, according to reports. He got into "a heated exchange'' with new general manager Steve Keim over the move, according to Mike Jurecki of XTRA 910..
He admitted today he was "very'' disappointed not to get a head coaching opportunity this season, but that he's thrilled to join the Browns.
Arians reportedly plans to hire former Browns assistant Todd Bowles as his defensive coordinator.
Browns owner Jimmy Haslam is familiar with Horton from their days together with the Steelers, when Haslam was part owner and Horton was a Steelers defensive assistant under Dick LeBeau, including 2007 through 2010 as defensive backs coach.
Horton said he played golf with LeBeau today and told him "we're going to have some really good battles.''
Horton described his interview with the Browns for their head coaching vacancy as "fantastic'' and said he studied the team thoroughly before his interview. "It's a team loaded with good, young talent,'' he said.
Chudzinsnki, who's still rounding out his staff, now has his two most important hires wrapped up.
"We are truly excited that we were able to get someone of Ray’s caliber as our defensive coordinator,” said Browns head coach Rob Chudzinski said in a statement. “He possesses a great deal of experience as a player, position coach and coordinator in the NFL and has been part of some of the top defenses in the league throughout his career. He is an extremely talented coach and I know that he will work very well with the young nucleus of players we have on defense.
“With the additions of Ray and Norv (Turner), and also by retaining Chris (Tabor) we believe we have outstanding leaders and teachers in each of our three phases. I feel as though we are off to a great start in our plan of putting together an outstanding coaching staff.”
Said CEO Joe Banner, “As we’ve said before, an important factor in hiring Rob was our confidence in him being able to put together a top-quality staff. He has assembled an extremely impressive group of coaches, and that will be very beneficial as we develop our players.”
From the Browns news release, Horton guided a defensive unit in 2012 that led the NFL in passer rating allowed (71.2) and interception percentage (4.4%). His defense also ranked second in the NFL in interceptions (22) and third-down efficiency (32.9%), third in red zone defense (44.4%) and fourth in takeaways (33). The defense also ranked fifth in passing defense (200.8 ypg), first downs allowed (288) and points allowed per drive (1.42).
Cardinals defensive back Patrick Peterson ranked fourth in the NFL with seven interceptions and led the league with five fumble recoveries en route to being the only Cardinal selected to the 2013 Pro Bowl. Horton made an immediate impact upon his arrival in 2011, as the club’s defense allowed 34 total touchdowns, their fewest since 1994, while leading the NFL in third down efficiency (31.4%).
Before joining the Cardinals, Horton spent seven seasons (2004-10) as the Steelers defensive backs/assistant defensive backs coach under the widely-respected LeBeau.
During his tenure in Pittsburgh, he helped the Steelers defense rank in the top 10 in the NFL in total defense each season, including leading the NFL on three occasions (2004, ’07-08). Horton was pivotal in the development of Steelers safety Troy Polamalu, as he was selected to six consecutive Pro Bowls (2005-10), named a first-team All-Pro three times (2005, 2008, 2010) and was voted as the 2010 AP Defensive Player of the Year.
Horton began his coaching career in Washington, where he served as assistant defensive backs/defensive assistant for three seasons (1994-96). He then made two stops as defensive backs coach with the Cincinnati Bengals (1997-2001) and Detroit Lions (2002-03), before landing in Pittsburgh.
A second-round selection (53rd overall) by Cincinnati in the 1983 NFL Draft, Horton appeared in 147 games with 99 starts with the Bengals (1983-88) and Dallas Cowboys (1989-92). Over the course of his career, he notched 19 interceptions, 11 fumble recoveries, five forced fumbles and scored five defensive touchdowns. He also made two Super Bowl appearances, playing in Super Bowl XXIII with Cincinnati and winning Super Bowl XXVII with Dallas.
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If there is one thing I can already say about Chud it is that he knows how to put a staff together and get them to fit his philosophy.
I am really excited to see these coaches get with our young guys and really mold them. Both coaches and Chud are all known to use the talent they have and maximize their abilities. Which is exciting, because I felt the last coaching staff hindered our true talent.
So kudos to him. Good start, Chud.
you had a good run Hank.
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Legend
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Well Ray would be a real good hire, IF WE RAN A 3-4 or had 3-4 talent. But we do not. I wonder if the Browns even asked him what we will run? Or is he one of these, "I can only coach a 3-4". Crap.. just great!
From Horton:
Quote:
He ran a 3-4 in Arizona and with the Steelers, but "I'm a coach of men, whether it's 3-4, 4-3, 5-5, I don't care. I'm going to coach men."
I might as well just post the whole article:
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EREA, Ohio -- In Cleveland, Browns new defensive coordinator Ray Horton will be reunited with offensive coordinator Norv Turner, the man who gave him his first coaching job in the NFL 19 years ago.
"I played in Dallas when Norv was the offensive coordinator, and Norv gave me my first job with the Washington Redskins," Horton told The Plain Dealer in a phone interview shortly after he was named Browns coordinator Friday. "It was one of my last years playing (defensive back) in Dallas, and he came up to me and said, 'Hey Ray, when I get my (head coaching) job, I want you to come with me.' I laughed and said, 'What? You haven't even coached me. What do you know about me?' He said, 'I love the way your coaches talk about you. I want you to coach for me.' It just blew me away. He was the first guy that ever hired me."
Horton, who played 10 years in the NFL, joined Turner in Washington as assistant defensive backs coach in 1994 and remained there three years. He then coached defensive backs for the Bengals and Lions before beginning a seven-year stint with the Steelers from 2004 to 2010. He spent the past two years as defensive coordinator for the Cardinals.
The opportunity to work alongside Turner again was a huge draw for him.
"It's awesome," said Horton. "Norv is one of the pre-eminent callers of the game of football. Great, great, great offensive mind. We're going to put up points and we're going to stop 'em from scoring points and we're going to have a fantastic team."
Horton is also looking forward to opposing Steelers defensive coordinator Dick LeBeau, whom he worked under in Pittsburgh.
"I was just playing golf with him (Friday) and I told him we're going to have some great turnpike battles," Horton said.
Horton, 52, interviewed for the Browns head coaching vacancy on Jan. 1, and was hoping to land the top job.
"I was ecstatic about the opportunity to try to coach that team," he said. "I don't know (why I didn't get it) but it doesn't matter now. I'm on a team that's loaded with talented young players, with great ownership. There are young players on both sides of the ball, the team is on the upswing and it looks like they're ready to take charge of that division. Just point them in the right direction and go."
Horton acknowledged that he was "very" disappointed to be passed over by three teams for their head coaching vacancies. He interviewed with his Cardinals twice and the Bills once. He was reportedly miffed when Bruce Arians was named Cardinals coach. "(Disappointed) is as honest as I can be to my core. But I'm excited about the opportunity to show people what I did in Arizona on the defensive side was no fluke and we're going to do it in Cleveland and we're going to be a top 10 defense and we'll see what happens after that."
He said he's never worked with Rob Chudzinski, but knows how good he is from coaching against him.
"We played them last year and Cam Newton threw for a lot of yards and gave us fits and it foreshadowed how good that guy was," said Horton. "Rob's got a fantastic reputation through the league."
He said his defense will be: "Aggressive. I don't know if anybody pressured more than I did last year and that's the kind of stuff we'll do here."
He's also excited about coaching the likes of Joe Haden, T.J. Ward, Phil Taylor, D'Qwell Jackson, Jabaal Sheard and the rest. "I'm excited about the talent we have and they're going to love this system," he said.
He ran a 3-4 in Arizona and with the Steelers, but "I'm a coach of men, whether it's 3-4, 4-3, 5-5, I don't care. I'm going to coach men."
Chudzinski now has three strong coordinators in Horton, Turner and Chris Tabor on special teams.
"We're truly excited that we were able to get someone of Ray's caliber as our defensive coordinator," said Chudzinski. "He possesses a great deal of experience as a player, position coach and coordinator in the NFL and has been part of some of the top defenses in the league throughout his career. He is an extremely talented coach and I know that he will work very well with the young nucleus of players we have on defense."
In 2012, Horton guided a defensive unit that led the NFL in passer rating allowed (71.2) and interception percentage (4.4). His defense also ranked second in the NFL in interceptions (22) and third-down efficiency (32.9 percent), third in red zone defense (44.4 percent) and fourth in takeaways (33). The defense also ranked fifth in passing defense (200.8 ypg), first downs allowed (288) and points allowed per drive (1.42).
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I like the Head Coach hire, I love the Offensive cord hire, I love the D-cord hire but none of this will matter because of our GM Hire Mike could screw up a wet dream and he will. Every tiny bit of hope I had just went out the window with this idiots hire as our GM
He's NOT the GM Dawg. See what I did there. LOL.
I can't even say this dudes name. He's VP of Player Personnel and will be part of the equation, but not all of it.
That somewhat comforts me. I hope.
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Quote:
I'm on a team that's loaded with talented young players, with great ownership. There are young players on both sides of the ball, the team is on the upswing and it looks like they're ready to take charge of that division. Just point them in the right direction and go."
That's all we need to hear!
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One day they hand us a bucket of poo, the next, a pile of gold..
Ok, I guess we sometimes gotta take the good with the bad
Yesterday I came to the conclusion that if we add Horton to the team of Chud and Turner, they will absolutely override anything Lombardi does or tries to do.
These three guys are powerful, forceful men with great cred and in at least the case of Turner and Chud, Calm about it. Don't know what to make of Hortons personality but I saw a report he had it out with the Cards when he wasn't chosen as HC. So there must be some fire in there. His D did very well.
So, while I hated the Lombardi pick up, I like this one.
The three guys that will lead these team on game day are pros. Now if they can keep Lombardi and Banner from Mucking up things,, we'll be fine.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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So nobody else wanted to win Peen? Are you saying because Haslam has drive and wants to win, that will make this team a success? Honestly my firend, i believe if that's all it took, there would be 32 Lombardi Trophy's handed out every year. I mean I know he's fron Knoxville and all, but come on man! 
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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I don't mind switching back to the 3-4, but here are some of my concerns:
1) Sheard is a huge question mark as to whether he can be effective in coverage. Someone posted a stat where he dropped back in coverage 22% of his snaps, but I think Sheard was best with his hands in the dirt.
2) I think Rubin and Taylor must be on the field together to get the most out of our d-line. Will that happen in a 3-4? Will one play NT, and the other play DE? or will they just alternate at NT? If its the later, I don't like it. They played very well next to each other last season.
3) Our ILB's are not instinctive enough to support a 3-man defensive line. The only LB that I could see consistently filling gaps is Craig Robertson. D'Qwell is not the best at shedding blocks, and if linemen are free, its a wrap.
Hopefully we add two LB's with the 1st and 3rd round picks. I'm crossing my fingers for Jarvis Jones!! and if we trade down and acquire more picks, at least be able to pick up Alec Ogletree!! I will be a little homerish this year in the draft, but these two guys come from a 3-4 system, and played lights out all season.
![[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]](https://i.ibb.co/6WV79RV/Browns-Coach-Sig.png)
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Watch this and get to know his "style", like the hire...and he got 8mil for 4years? Wow, nice pay for a DC http://www.azcardinals.com/videos-photos...94-666f751c3495Really like the hire and he was my no1 IF we really had to switch the scheme, still would have preferred a 4-3 guy like Mel Tucker, who's now the DC in Chicago...oh well... I hope his hire nets us FS Kerry Rhodes in FA, that could make up for the switch on his own, lol would also be interested in backup S R.Johnson and CB Toler Remember this though, there are some warts too: 1) In 2011 we had a fluky Top 10 too, remember? Well, we had a crap Offense that's why teams played it safe against us. Same happened in Zona last season 2) His D was TORCHED vs the run last season
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The thing with the "3-4" is most, good 3-4 coaches run a hybrid... with the 3-4 being the base, but a lot of the time having a 4-3 look out there... the thing I like about the 3-4 is I think you can disguise what the LBers are doing a little more... but with that said, you need to have really good LBers.... I don't think we're there yet...
I'd love to pick up a DB and LB with our first two picks this year...
<><
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See link above. 17 versus run. Second versus pass. Toughest schedule faced.
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Quote:
See link above. 17 versus run. Second versus pass. Toughest schedule faced.
17th vs run? Really?
They allowed the 5th most rush yds...ok, ok...TOTAL stats, I know. But their 4.3ypc is t19th, so "below AVG" would be my grade, especially considering that they were facing lots of useless 4th Qtr "run the clock out" runs
Their Offense was teethless, so their ranking against the pass HAS TO BE taken with a grain of salt, just like our top 10 ranking after 2011...just saying and staying consistent with the arguments here
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That's why I used the efficiency stats
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Quote:
That's why I used the efficiency stats
from that same link:
2011 Browns 17th vs. Pass, 26th vs. Run
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Well I guess to put another caveat in there, it may be worth looking at their average time of possession as well. If their offense can't score and their D is always on the field, they're going to give up more rush yards.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
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We have to hope Lombardi listens to the coaches.. and not say "I'm the GM.. it is my team.. the final decision is mine." Hopefully, the final decision will be Chud's. I think the reason they got rid of Heckert is because they wanted someone who would listen to the coach, and allow the coach to make up the draft board and the final decision on who to pick. 
The Cleveland Browns - WE KNOW QUARTERBACKS ( Look at how many we've had ... )
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J/c
Take all the negativity to the Lombardi thread
Last edited by Arps; 01/19/13 12:39 PM.
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Quote:
Well I guess to put another caveat in there, it may be worth looking at their average time of possession as well. If their offense can't score and their D is always on the field, they're going to give up more rush yards.
That's very true.
I remember one game where I mentioned that we had no sacks in the 1st half, but by the end of the game we had 4 or 5 ...... because the other team was forced to throw to catch up. That's what happens with a very good defense and a solid offense forcing the issue.
When the offense constantly goes 3 and out, then the defense gets pounded on by the opposing offense. We've seen it here over the years.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I think Haslam wanted Saban and when he coudlnt get his guy, he let Banner go after his guy in Chip Kelly. They didnt mesh and the real search began with Haslam settling on Chud. Haslam also seems to be the guy that secured Horton.
Lombardi is all on Banner. So the only thing I can really fault Haslam for at this point is allowing Banner to hire the turd in the toupee.
I have a lot more respect for Haslam for Chud and Horton. Big moves.
I think he and Chud may end up with the draft power, just a feeling.
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Quote:
I think Haslam wanted Saban and when he coudlnt get his guy, he let Banner go after his guy in Chip Kelly. They didnt mesh and the real search began with Haslam settling on Chud. Haslam also seems to be the guy that secured Horton.
Lombardi is all on Banner. So the only thing I can really fault Haslam for at this point is allowing Banner to hire the turd in the toupee.
I have a lot more respect for Haslam for Chud and Horton. Big moves.
I think he and Chud may end up with the draft power, just a feeling.
Me too, thats why I am not worried. I think so far this has been our best off season since the return, and its not even really the off season yet.
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Since it could be a hybrid 3-4/4-3 there could be two base sets.
4-3 Sheard and Rucker at DE. Taylor and Rubin at DT. Winn and Hughes off the bench. Then LBs would then be a combo of Jackson, Robertson, JMJ and Gocong.
3-4 Rucker, Winn and Hughes at DE. Hughes would be bigger but a little bit but has some quickness and could be the first two downs. OLB would be a big need. Sheard maybe. Maybe JMJ. Maybe Robertson. Draft at 6 for sure, I agree with you. ILB could be Jackson and Gocong and I'd feel pretty solid about that.
Potential free agents to add:
Connor Barwin OLB Houston
Paul Kruger OLB Baltimore
Anthony Spencer OLB Dallas
Shaun Phillips OLB San Diego
Antwan Barnes OLB San Diego(back up last year but 11 sacks the year before)
With so much cap to spend the Browns should surely manage to get one of these guys. Plus an OLB at #6. I don't think any transition should be too brutal
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Quote:
Joe haden is excited about the hire...
it was the only thing that made me smile yesterday about the Browns.
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Just clicking.
With Todd Bowles being hired as Zona's DC, possibly transitioning their D to a 4-3, does anyone think we may end up with a few of their players that don't fit his scheme?
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
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#gmstrong
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"We should get Daryl Washington, Patrick Peterson, Darnell Dockett, and Calais Campbell. If we don't get all of those guys Lombardi is a failure."
- Kendall Storm
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You forget Kendall Storms troll status.
Every move Lombardi makes will be a great move.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Quote:
I don't mind switching back to the 3-4, but here are some of my concerns:
1) Sheard is a huge question mark as to whether he can be effective in coverage. Someone posted a stat where he dropped back in coverage 22% of his snaps, but I think Sheard was best with his hands in the dirt.
2) I think Rubin and Taylor must be on the field together to get the most out of our d-line. Will that happen in a 3-4? Will one play NT, and the other play DE? or will they just alternate at NT? If its the later, I don't like it. They played very well next to each other last season.
3) Our ILB's are not instinctive enough to support a 3-man defensive line. The only LB that I could see consistently filling gaps is Craig Robertson. D'Qwell is not the best at shedding blocks, and if linemen are free, its a wrap.
Hopefully we add two LB's with the 1st and 3rd round picks. I'm crossing my fingers for Jarvis Jones!! and if we trade down and acquire more picks, at least be able to pick up Alec Ogletree!! I will be a little homerish this year in the draft, but these two guys come from a 3-4 system, and played lights out all season.
Horton is quoted somewhere on here as having said he'll work with the talent he has and if that means staying with the 4-3 or some hybrid of it, that's what he'll do.
So I don't think he's going to just autoswitch to the 4-3 without having the talent to play it.
I would however suspect that they will acquire the talent over time and make that switch. But as of today, we have some bright spots on D,, I figure he'll use what he's got and make a D that works.
I really think Horton is that good.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I dont think it will be an issue in changing schemes to much considering the players Horton used in Arizona. I dont like the 3-4 but I dont see an issue in making the switch.
Rubin, Hughes and Kitchen will fill the NT role.
Big Phil has the burst to be a fierce DE and Winn and Rucker are probably better suited for the 3-4 DE role than they were for their 4-3 roles.
Inside backers, Horton prefers speed and instincts. Size isn't an issue in this scheme. This isn't the Romeo 3-4. This scheme is all about getting to the ball and mostly getting to the ball before it gets past the LOS.
Sheard shouldnt have any problems adjusting to the 3-4. He isn't a stiff and he is at his best when he is rushing not playing containment. We needed someone opposite Sheard to rush the passer anyway. Rush DE just changed to Rush OLB/DE and that will probably be filled with Jones or Moore.
SS we are set with Ward and Young as his backup.
FS was a hole last year and now we will be looking for a more aggressive FS.
CB Sheldon is a FA and age is catching up. I think this position will be filled in FA. BAnner likes FA corners.
This is as big of a change as a team can make going from a bend dont break 4-3 to a blitzkrieg 3-4 but personnel wise. We are just as close to having the right fit for Horton's scheme as we were to perfecting Jauron's scheme. Horton is about to take the leash off the Dawgs. Hell he is far more aggressive and attacking than Dick Lebeau. It is damn near Buddy Ball.
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Legend
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Legend
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Just curious, how do you know that Banner likes FA Corners?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Seems like the Eagles have always been either adding a FA DB or missing out on their attempt to add a free agent DB. Nnamdi, Samuel are the more recent additions. Hard to say if that was actually Banner or Heckert or whomever thye have had up there but they have been more inclined to add free agent defensive backs than probably any other position.
Just like they draft OL and DL every draft and look for linebackers that can run to the ball.
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Legend
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Legend
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Quote:
Seems like the Eagles have always been either adding a FA DB or missing out on their attempt to add a free agent DB. Nnamdi, Samuel are the more recent additions. Hard to say if that was actually Banner or Heckert or whomever thye have had up there but they have been more inclined to add free agent defensive backs than probably any other position.
Just like they draft OL and DL every draft and look for linebackers that can run to the ball.
Well yeah, I know and understand that, but according to all that's been reported, Reid had control of that, not Banner. So wouldn't it be more Reid and not Banner that has the propensity for DB's in Free Agency?
I would suppose that Banner may have done some contacting, but my guess is that it would have been at Reids request.
Just a guess
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Ray Horton hired as Browns' DC
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