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We've heard Haslam throw this word out in regards to decisions that the front office will make. Often times I see a word and in my head I know generally what it means, so I will just continue reading or listening. Sometimes I like to look the word up to better understand things as well. It lead me to this. Consensus decision making Quote:
Consensus decision-making is a group decision making process that seeks the consent of all participants. Consensus may be defined professionally as an acceptable resolution, one that can be supported, even if not the "favourite" of each individual. Consensus is defined by Merriam-Webster as, first, general agreement, and second, group solidarity of belief or sentiment. It has its origin in the Latin word cōnsēnsus (agreement), which is from cōnsentiō meaning literally feel together.[1] It is used to describe both the decision and the process of reaching a decision. Consensus decision-making is thus concerned with the process of deliberating and finalizing a decision, and the social and political effects of using this process.
The reason I bring this up is there seems to be a lot of speculation (one could call it doom and gloom  ) of the hiring of Lombardi.
People are speculating that you will have a rookie head coach in Chud, Banner, Lombardi, and Haslam in the draft room making the picks.
I would be willing to wager that you will also have Turner and Horton as well.
Haslam has responded to questions of "who would break a tie" with if that was the case then we probably would pick someone else. They have also stated iirc that everyone would report to Banner.
I think that everyone wants to know "who has final say"...they want a target...the person to blame if something goes wrong. The media lives for this as well.
I honestly don't see this to be the case at all. I think that this "group" will work to do whats best for the Browns.
If this is truly a group effort then I think we will see good results. Especially if everyone has a say.
They have also stated that they want the Head coach to have a lot of say in personel. What does this mean really?
Well its his choice for the offense and defensive schemes. Working with the coordinators would give him a good idea of the types of players needed, and holes in the roster. These guys need a seat at the table because it's their recipe. They have the list of ingredients so to speak. We have undoubtably one of the best offensive coordinators in Turner, and a pissed off defensive coordinator in Horton. These guys know what it takes to field a good unit...and they know the types of players they have to have to succeed. Chud has also stated you have to be able to use what you have as well.
You have a guy in Banner that has been around the league for a long time, and if anything else he knows a lot of people and that is invaluable to a new owner. Supposedly his expertise was in the salary cap and contracts. You need that type of knowledge at the table as well. Certain positions require big bucks....others don't. If that gets out of whack then your roster will be messed up in a hurry.
Lombardi...I don't know crap about this guy other than what i've read since his name as come up. Everyone is sighting players drafted, to predictions he made on teams draft grades. This is a lot of bunk. Maybe he picked every one of those guys and had final say too. Somehow i doubt it. Heck, most teams gm's with a ton of scouts working for them manage on average to hit 50% of the time on a first round pick....then it goes downhill from there. Now have 1 guy do that for all 32 teams and then fry him? I don't see the point. This guy has been involved in player evaluation forever. You are projecting on one piece of the puzzle in a player. You can't foresee injuries...injuries to other team-mates...luck...schemes...
All the things that go into wins....probowls. Dawson is a prime example.
His job will be working with the scouts for the types of players that the head coach is looking for, and making recommendations i'm sure. Does everyone really think that he will do this all himself? Scouts have input too. Lot's of layers here. I don't see him having "final say"...a part sure. This isn't an exact science....it's more like a best guess.
Then you have Haslam. Rookie owner. Oh God...what does he know? I think he knows what he doesn't know. That's why he got Banner. People are complaining about that. Why? Should he just wing it? Everyone was railing on how me blew it with Kelly. I think thats bull too.
The knock on Holmgren was that he didn't look hard enough and picked Shurmer. This guy leaves no stone unturned, Interviewing college coaches...previous head coaches, coordinators, guys in canada. And then picks Chud. No knee jerk reaction here. He did his homework, and then made a decision.
I firmly believe that this group will get the time it needs to learn, grow, and field a winner. I don't see Haslam panicing and second guessing himself.
I see a group of guys that are going to be more about "what's best for the Browns" instead of personal glory. Unless I miss the mark, they will be working together to address everyone's concerns, and come up with a solution that they all can live with.
I believe that the 2-3 years and blow it all up is the cause of all of our problems. I don't see that happening this time. I could be wrong, but I doubt it.
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Of course everyone is working for what is best for the browns. Every Gm we have had has done that.
Some can evaluate talent some cant.
Heckert has proven he can evaluate talent into the later rounds. Something we have been missing. If Lombardi cant put these players out there for a consensus discussion they will slip by.
That is the problem I see.
Plus wasnt Banner part of the FO that built the eagles dream team of the last 2 years. We see how well that worked out.
Joe Thomas #73
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Plus wasnt Banner part of the FO that built the eagles dream team of the last 2 years. We see how well that worked out.
I think the failures of that team fall squarely on the shoulders of Andy Reid and his staff.
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Haslam has responded to questions of "who would break a tie" with if that was the case then we probably would pick someone else.
This notion is the only thing in the whole argument that bothers me... If Chud and Horton want one guy and Norv and some head scouts want another guy and Banner/Haslam picks somebody totally different.. well that would just be astronomically stupid... I mean that's how you treat little kids, if you can't play nice with the toy then nobody gets it... which is why I don't suspect it will play out that way...
If the whole group has narrowed it down to 2 guys that they like and it is essentially a tie... as long as Banner/Haslam break the tie by picking one of those two guys, then you can't really fault Banner/Haslam if the pick doesn't work out...
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Heckert has proven he can evaluate talent into the later rounds. Something we have been missing.
Larry Asante
Carlton Mitchell
Cliffton Geathers
Jordan Cameron
Owen Marecic
Buster Skrine
Jason Pinkston
Eric Hagg
Travis Benjamin
James-Michael Johnson
Ryan Miller
Emmanuel Acho
Billy Winn
Trevin Wade
Brad Smelley
Average at best.
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[If the whole group has narrowed it down to 2 guys that they like and it is essentially a tie... as long as Banner/Haslam break the tie by picking one of those two guys, then you can't really fault Banner/Haslam if the pick doesn't work out...
Yes U can. If they pick the wrong player that decision rests on them like it has always rested on the person(s) calling the shots in the past..
Unless U mean something else.
If Banner can look at Heckert and then say we want someone who can build a team not just evaluate talent ,the same applies to all of these guys.
Breaking ties will still rest on one person making that final say.
Banner just isn't going to say it now.
So yes U can point the finger at them..first of all,Haslam shouldn't be one in there trying to play talent evaluator..he's not qualified to do anything like that, and to a large degree neither is Banner.
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 01/21/13 05:19 PM.
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and to a large degree neither is Banner
Thats the problem I think he is in that position.
Joe Thomas #73
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Of course everyone is working for what is best for the browns. Every Gm we have had has done that.
Some can evaluate talent some cant.
Heckert has proven he can evaluate talent into the later rounds. Something we have been missing. If Lombardi cant put these players out there for a consensus discussion they will slip by.
That is the problem I see.
Plus wasnt Banner part of the FO that built the eagles dream team of the last 2 years. We see how well that worked out.
That's not the point. There is a difference between one guy having final say, and a group listening to everyone's concerns and reaching an agreement that they can all live with.
And as far as Banner...you mean the eagles where reid had the most say? I'm not defending banner either. This isn't about just one player or one pick.
I would argue that our biggest problem drafting was missing on the higher rounds. Heckert didn't do a bad job imo. He didn't do it alone either. Do you even know if Heckert satisfied the needs of Shurmur? I don't get your point about lombardi not being able to put players out for discussion...that's the whole point.
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Yes U can. If they pick the wrong player that decision rests on them like it has always rested on the person(s) calling the shots in the past..
Unless U mean something else.
You can't have personS with the final say... it has to be one person, otherwise a consensus must be reached, even if its between the final 2 people...
And lastly, if Chud and Horton are lobbying for a pick and others are lobbying for another pick.. and they decide to go with the guy Chud wanted.. then how are J&J totally responsible if that pick doesn't work out? It's the guy their HC told them he wanted....
yebat' Putin
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Quote:
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Heckert has proven he can evaluate talent into the later rounds. Something we have been missing.
Larry Asante-
Carlton Mitchell
Cliffton Geathers
Jordan Cameron potential to be a starter
Owen Marecic bum
Buster Skrine good quality
Jason Pinkston starter
Eric Hagg backup/ potential to be a starter
Travis Benjamin slot wr
James-Michael Johnson will be a starter could be high quality
Ryan Miller
Emmanuel Acho
Billy Winn starter high quality
Trevin Wade possible starter/ quality backup
Brad Smelley possible starter
Average at best.
average woiuld be 1-2 starters out of these picks
we might end up with 3-4 that is above average.
Hunter + Dart = This is the way.
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I don't know how you could call Skrine 'good quality'. At best, he's a serviceable nickel. At worst, he's out of the NFL in two years. And odds are probably on the latter.
The one starter on that list is Pinkston, and he might not be a starter much longer (and I don't know that he should be).
IMO Winn and Benjamin could turn into regular contributors. I would guess that most of that list is out of the NFL within the next 2-3 years.
I don't understand how Heckert earned the rep he gets. I liked the guy a lot ... and I thought his drafts were alright, and still have potential ... and at the end of the day, I wouldn't mind if he were still here ... but he wasn't as great as he's given credit for.
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I don't know how you could call Skrine 'good quality'. At best, he's a serviceable nickel.
Two years in and a 5th round corner is still considered for the nickel spot? I'd consider that pretty good...
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IMO Winn and Benjamin could turn into regular contributors.
What would you consider Winn this year? Looked to me like a regular contributor..
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I would guess that most of that list is out of the NFL within the next 2-3 years.
Just like every other teams later round picks...
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I don't understand how Heckert earned the rep he gets.
He's way better than anybody before him... and he appears to be better than the majority of guys in his position around the league.. He ain't perfect but he's pretty darn good.
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This notion is the only thing in the whole argument that bothers me... If Chud and Horton want one guy and Norv and some head scouts want another guy and Banner/Haslam picks somebody totally different.. well that would just be astronomically stupid... I mean that's how you treat little kids, if you can't play nice with the toy then nobody gets it... which is why I don't suspect it will play out that way...
If the whole group has narrowed it down to 2 guys that they like and it is essentially a tie... as long as Banner/Haslam break the tie by picking one of those two guys, then you can't really fault Banner/Haslam if the pick doesn't work out...
I understand what you are saying...that would be stupid. If you are looking at "the player".
Using your example...let's suppose chud and horton say we need an outside linebacker...norv and some scouts say this receiver is the guy we should pick...and then haslam and banner draft a qb because they see it as a problem.
Under the al davis organization they draft a qb.
Under the gm has total say they draft a qb.
Then the defense get's beat alot because they don't have an olb...the score gets run up...and you are asking a rookie qb to win the game...except you don't have a receiver that can get open or catch.
Think there will be alot of finger pointing and blame...maybe alittle back-stabing in that organization?
Now in an organization that is trying to have consensus would approach this differently.
We got holes at olb, receiver, and qb according to the group.
Maybe some of these holes can be addressed in free agency. What are the options? Will we have to overpay? Will it cause problems in the locker-room with our own free agents?
We're picking 6th. Now if you trust your scouts and gm, then players are going to be ranked a certain way. You don't draft for need if you can help it. If one of those positions is the bpa then that should be the pick. By the same token those other needs have to be considered. Maybe thru a trade...maybe thru free agency.
I don't think you get caught up on a player as much as the whole. If you can draft a qb worthy of the pick, and you think he can do the job then you do it. This position is probably a bad example because its qb.
If you can take the linebacker and still have quality receivers projected at your next pick, then that is better than falling in love with a receiver, and then reaching for a linebacker.
Now if you are talking a choice between 2 different guys that play linebacker then someone has to ultimately decide, and no they shouldn't be blamed for the result.
I'm seeing this as addressing everyones issues in a way that is acceptable to all of them...maybe they didn't get their "guy" but their issue got addressed in a way that they could live with. Two heads are better than one.
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Using your example...let's suppose chud and horton say we need an outside linebacker...norv and some scouts say this receiver is the guy we should pick...and then haslam and banner draft a qb because they see it as a problem.
Under the al davis organization they draft a qb.
Under the gm has total say they draft a qb.
Under the gm has total say wouldn't they draft who Lombardi wants?
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We got holes at olb, receiver, and qb according to the group.
Maybe some of these holes can be addressed in free agency. What are the options? Will we have to overpay? Will it cause problems in the locker-room with our own free agents?
Isn't most of this free agency work done before the draft? I'm assuming that by draft day, any good FA deal is done... you know what you've got...
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We're picking 6th. Now if you trust your scouts and gm, then players are going to be ranked a certain way. You don't draft for need if you can help it. If one of those positions is the bpa then that should be the pick.
I don't disagree but I have also always believed that as scientific as they try to be, those rankings are subjective.. under your scenario if you have a OLB ranked as the highest player left on your board and right behind him is a WR.. I don't necessarily think that, in and of itself, is enough to say that its a done deal, take the OLB...
But yes, I believe you do have to consider the downstream of the draft.. maybe it is a very deep draft at OLB and you feel you can get a pretty good one later...
I'm assuming that all of that is somewhat planned out before hand and then hashed out in the few minutes before the selection is made.. I'm not advocating that the final decision maker just pull a name from a hat... I'm assuming that the final decision is made with all of the predraft information considered... Drafting at 6, you should have a list of about 8-10 players in order that you will take at that position... it's early enough that you have time before the draft to mock almost every possible scenario... there shouldn't even need to be a discussion on draft day... the only thing that should be going on in the war room on draft day is waiting for the phone to ring to see if somebody offers you a deal you can't refuse...
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I think Banner has said that more, but to me that is a chick method. Chick's are for consensus building. Guy's just say this is the way it will be.
JMO based on years of my experience.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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I think Ryan Miller may end up being a valuable backup at RT and LT. But in the upcoming drag, it'll be pretty hard to screw up the No. 6 pick. Any of those DE/OLB guys would be just fine. The Alabama CB would be fine. Just don't get cute and start trading down. And if they really stick the first-round pick, not much else will matter. Best QB in the third, put him on the bench while we see what Weeden can do. Some depth guys later, LBs, DBs. Whatever. Lombardi might not blow it.
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I think the fact that we have to have a "what the hell is consensus really and who the hell makes the final decisions in this organization" conversation speaks volumes about everything that's going wrong.
"Team Chemistry No Match for Team Biology" (Onion Sports Headline)
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I think the fact that we have to have a "what the hell is consensus really and who the hell makes the final decisions in this organization" conversation speaks volumes about everything that's going wrong.
 It is quite sad that this thread even exists  I'm with Peen - someone needs to have final say. This shouldn't be a democracy and it really surprises me that anything like this occurred with such a strong business man at the helm. Sure input should be taken from everyone, however someone needs to have final say regardless of what the other people involved think.
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When did they say that Lombardi has final say?
My whole point with this is to speculate on how they may be approaching personel matters.
Yes free agency is before the draft, and I agree that is where you address needs if you have to.
There are so many ways that you can approach fixing a team.
If they talk as a group and say:
If we sign this free agent we can then draft this type of player...
or if we don't we will have to draft this guy instead, or try to trade up or down.
If they do this as a group then it minimizes mistakes that might be made if one guy has all the power. In other words if a mistake is made, they did it together.
I do think the draft board is pretty much set on draft day. Trading up or down would simply mean you take the guy that is there when its your pick.
Everyone is crying how lombardi is going to ruin us.
Banner don't know crap about drafting players.
chud is a rookie coach...
Haslam knows truck-stops...not football.
That might all be true...or it might all be bull. But if it is, then any one of them with final say...total control, whatever you want to call it, means trouble for us.
Together though with all those ideas and concerns on the table, and a little give and take, i'll bet you minimize rash decisions, have less finger pointing, and better decisions.
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lol peen...does that mean we are getting cheerleaders? I thought the general consensus around here was that we don't want them.  So if Haslam has said we'll have consensus, then it's not manly? He's basically saying, "Swallow your pride, and work together. Give and take. Walk out with a single purpose. Have each others backs. Consider every opinion, every option, to do what is best for this team." And as far as the "chic" comment...you've obviously never met my ex
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10yr and columbus...
its sad that a thread like this exists? Well cry me a river. I could say that about most of the whining and crying that I see on this board.
If anything its living proof of how "final say" and "total control" can cause problems. Every poster has "final say" and "total control" of what they post.
Most of it accomplishes nothing, other than a ton of arguing. What really gets solved? You get couch coddlers...holcomb huggers...ben gay, and all sorts of other ridiculous bickering.
But hey...lets all put one poster in charge...that's the "manly thing to do" right?
Then we can ban them if things don't change.
What if the point of one of our posts was to find a solution? What if everyone put their concerns out there (which is another way of saying how it is according to you), listening to everyone else's concerns with an open mind, and coming up with something we could all live with? Then acting on it.
That's not sad, ridiculous, or stupid. That's knowing that you don't know it all, and acting in the best interest of the team.
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.you've obviously never met my ex
Are you serious ? I threw her out of bed for eating crackers...or wait wrong one..she was the one that was being consequence...Laugh if you can it's an ex thing.... 
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People are speculating that you will have a rookie head coach in Chud, Banner, Lombardi, and Haslam in the draft room making the picks.
I didn't consider that speculation. Weren't we told there would be the HC, GM/H of PP, Banner and Haslam in the war room? I'm pretty sure we were.
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I would be willing to wager that you will also have Turner and Horton as well.
That isn't what we were told and at what point do you have so many people in the war room that it causes more confusion than solutions?
If I were to venture a guess and according to what we're told, it seems far more likely they would give their "wish lists" pre-draft. Unless you have privey to something I'm unaware of?
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Haslam has responded to questions of "who would break a tie" with if that was the case then we probably would pick someone else. They have also stated iirc that everyone would report to Banner.
So accordingly, if everyone has to report to Banner, doesn't that strongly indicate who actually has final say?
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I think that everyone wants to know "who has final say"...they want a target...the person to blame if something goes wrong. The media lives for this as well.
I honestly don't see this to be the case at all. I think that this "group" will work to do whats best for the Browns.
If this is truly a group effort then I think we will see good results. Especially if everyone has a say.
Well the hwole "group effort" thing is a great locker room speach, in the business world there is a pecking order and a final decision maker that makes the ultimate decision.
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They have also stated that they want the Head coach to have a lot of say in personel. What does this mean really?
Well its his choice for the offense and defensive schemes. Working with the coordinators would give him a good idea of the types of players needed, and holes in the roster. These guys need a seat at the table because it's their recipe. They have the list of ingredients so to speak. We have undoubtably one of the best offensive coordinators in Turner, and a pissed off defensive coordinator in Horton. These guys know what it takes to field a good unit...and they know the types of players they have to have to succeed. Chud has also stated you have to be able to use what you have as well.
Once again, we know how this thing was laid out to us. I believe this group of coaches will have a "wish list" of players they like. However, in the end, much as you have described, the more important thing will be "the type of player needed" to work within their systems they wish to run.
So far, to date, what the "personnel control" of the HC has been described as, that he has the final say on the final 53 man roster and who starts.
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You have a guy in Banner that has been around the league for a long time, and if anything else he knows a lot of people and that is invaluable to a new owner. Supposedly his expertise was in the salary cap and contracts. You need that type of knowledge at the table as well. Certain positions require big bucks....others don't. If that gets out of whack then your roster will be messed up in a hurry.
I find this to be slightly absurd. The new contract pretty much has rookie salaries set to a great degree. It's no great secret that QB's, CB's and Pass rush specialists and LT's demand the most in the FA market so drafting them is much cheaper than signing them.
The problem with all of this in theory, is that the FA signing period begins well before the draft. Any major FA's will be signed before the draft ever begins. So the positions of need we have in the draft will be abundantly evident.
The FA signing period will determine the bulk of any future salary cap implications, not the draft.
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Everyone is sighting players drafted, to predictions he made on teams draft grades. This is a lot of bunk.
We know what he was hired to do and we know the results. Unless you have anything other than your claim of "bunk" to add, I'd say the overwhelming evidence "de-bunks your bunk".
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This guy has been involved in player evaluation forever. You are projecting on one piece of the puzzle in a player. You can't foresee injuries...injuries to other team-mates...luck...schemes...
I suggest you actually look at his 1st and 2nd round picks everywhere he was "hired to do that job" before you go trying to dispell what has been said. And you can simply take out any players that "injury" played a part in and look at it on paper rather than through hyperbole.
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All the things that go into wins....probowls. Dawson is a prime example.
We are talking about the players he selected and their overall success or lack there of in the NFL.
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His job will be working with the scouts for the types of players that the head coach is looking for, and making recommendations i'm sure. Does everyone really think that he will do this all himself? Scouts have input too. Lot's of layers here. I don't see him having "final say"...a part sure. This isn't an exact science....it's more like a best guess.
Scouts work for him. Scouts give their evaluations. In theory the "scouts boss" is the one who has the final say. You can call that layers if you like. But it's no more than a standard corporate structure. Underlings and the man who is supposed to be far superior to them paid the big bucks to make the final decision.
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Then you have Haslam. Rookie owner. Oh God...what does he know? I think he knows what he doesn't know. That's why he got Banner. People are complaining about that. Why?
Maybe because as it has been described to us, he'll be one of the votes in the war room? Or maybe he's forgotten he doesn't know how to do that yet?
It's not "that he hired someone", it's that that "someone's" life long friend" decided to take away his power at a former job and hand the reigns over to other people. It's that most every NFL agent doesn't like negotiating with the guy and if he hasn't totally changed his startegy, he won't pony up the $$$ to land us any quality FA's or pay the $$$ to keep established players. But we'll see....
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Should he just wing it? Everyone was railing on how me blew it with Kelly. I think thats bull too.
Okay. they went after him hard and now he's the HC in Philly. Since it seems that the Lombardi cat was out of the bag some time ago, do you think that may have had anything to do with them not getting their first few coaching candidates?
Sorry, but if you get the jump on your competition and get a guy in your office for sevsen hours and then realise you don't have a chance in hell of landing him, you blew it somewhere. Even though in this case, I'm glad they did.
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The knock on Holmgren was that he didn't look hard enough and picked Shurmer. This guy leaves no stone unturned, Interviewing college coaches...previous head coaches, coordinators, guys in canada. And then picks Chud. No knee jerk reaction here. He did his homework, and then made a decision.
You could be right, but it certainly doesn't look that way on paper. First choice Chip Kelly is HC in Philly. Second choice, Doug Marrone is HC in Buffalo and their third choice, Mark Trestman is the HC in Chicago.
Now you can say they did their due dilligance if you wish, but in looking at it on the surface it looks more like a baseball games, Strike one! Strike two! Strike three!
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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All of that "why?" and "how?" and the EGO at play Banner summed up perfectly in the presser:
Joe Banner
(On when they first discussed Lombardi as a possibility and when did it all come together)- “I think we kind of loosely joked with each other about possibly working together some day over the years that we were friends. Or occasionally we both agree about a player that everybody else didn’t like that turned out to be good so we patted ourselves on the back and told each other how brilliant we were and thought we should work together someday.
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You could be right, but it certainly doesn't look that way on paper. First choice Chip Kelly is HC in Philly. Second choice, Doug Marrone is HC in Buffalo and their third choice, Mark Trestman is the HC in Chicago.
Now you can say they did their due dilligance if you wish, but in looking at it on the surface it looks more like a baseball games, Strike one! Strike two! Strike three!
I'm going to take a stab at something after getting a feel for you having read you for a week or two now.
You're a Political Type aren't you?
You're so far off base it isn't even funny anymore.
The ONLY thing you are even remotely on the same planet on is Kelly was our 1st choice. Saban possibly. He said he doesn't want the NFL. Not the Browns, the NFL. Case closed. That's not a miss. Kelly was interviewed first, I think. Or was it Marrone while we were waiting for Oregon's Bowl game to be over?
Regardless, we never offered anyone a contract.
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I suggest you actually look at his 1st and 2nd round picks everywhere he was "hired to do that job" before you go trying to dispell what has been said. And you can simply take out any players that "injury" played a part in and look at it on paper rather than through hyperbole.
And I suggest you actually go find something, ANYTHING that states all those picks were HIS and his alone. Suggestion. Don't waste your time looking because you won't find what you need.
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I'm going to take a stab at something after getting a feel for you having read you for a week or two now.
You're a Political Type aren't you?
If you consider that I think politicians are all a bunch of crooks so vote for the one you think will do the least damage....... Is that political?
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You're so far off base it isn't even funny anymore.
In your world of "I know what he got hired to do.... Now prove he did his job!"?....... In your world that thinks that way, I would hope you do consider me off base.
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The ONLY thing you are even remotely on the same planet on is Kelly was our 1st choice. Saban possibly. He said he doesn't want the NFL. Not the Browns, the NFL. Case closed. That's not a miss. Kelly was interviewed first, I think. Or was it Marrone while we were waiting for Oregon's Bowl game to be over?
Kelly, Marrone, Trestman. All current NFL HC's with other teams.
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Regardless, we never offered anyone a contract.
I wonder if they told them they would have to work with Lombardi since that news leaked months ago and turned out to be true? That would be enough to run many away if they had other options afforded to them.
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And I suggest you actually go find something, ANYTHING that states all those picks were HIS and his alone. Suggestion. Don't waste your time looking because you won't find what you need.
No, people just paid him millions to do a job, wouldn't let him do his job and then fired him because he didn't do a good job of not doing his job. Now the very idea of that is funny right there..... I don't care who ya are!
I see logic is escaping you!!???
 
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Or occasionally we both agree about a player that everybody else didn’t like that turned out to be good so we patted ourselves on the back and told each other how brilliant we were and thought we should work together someday.
Now Dj, you know that isn't what people will call ego. It will slanted into..... light hearted Banner...... I mean banter.... toward the press! How witty and comical the funny little man is! Pure genious he is!
Sounds like a Bromance made in heaven to me!
Last edited by PitDAWG; 01/22/13 08:11 AM.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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What if the point of one of our posts was to find a solution? What if everyone put their concerns out there (which is another way of saying how it is according to you), listening to everyone else's concerns with an open mind, and coming up with something we could all live with? Then acting on it.
That's not sad, ridiculous, or stupid. That's knowing that you don't know it all, and acting in the best interest of the team.
Sure, take input from every possible source, but IMO someone needs to be the head honcho and take all of that meaningful input and make a decision. Not this "we'll come to a consensus" nonsense. Maybe they will come to a consensus 90% of the time and it won't be an issue, however if a consensus cannot be reached, someone needs to make the call. I don't like that they said if they are divided 2 and 2 on a player they'll move on - that is absurd. Someone needs to make a decision IMO.
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Heckert has proven he can evaluate talent into the later rounds. Something we have been missing.
Larry Asante
Carlton Mitchell
Cliffton Geathers
Jordan Cameron
Owen Marecic
Buster Skrine
Jason Pinkston
Eric Hagg
Travis Benjamin
James-Michael Johnson
Ryan Miller
Emmanuel Acho
Billy Winn
Trevin Wade
Brad Smelley
Average at best.
Well, it's easy to pick the worst of what he's done and decide that that is his legacy,.....
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Dennis Pitta
David Reed
Arthur Jones
Ramon Harewood
Chykie Brown
Pernell McPhee
Tyrod Taylor
Anthony Allen
Gino Gradkowski
Christian Thompson
Asa Jackson
Tommy Streeter
DeAngelo Tyson
Same drafts, one of the best GMs around in Ozzie and with his team in the SB...1 starter, some backups and as many busts. Solid job and absolutely comparable to what Heckert accomplished for the Browns
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You can't have personS with the final say... it has to be one person, otherwise a consensus must be reached, even if its between the final 2 people...
With the ego's involved it's no doubt it's going to be Banner making that final call.
Otherwise it's failed .
And lastly, if Chud and Horton are lobbying for a pick and others are lobbying for another pick.. and they decide to go with the guy Chud wanted.. then how are J&J totally responsible if that pick doesn't work out? It's the guy their HC told them he wanted....
In your senero that would rest on Chud..but in the other ,if Banner/Haslam agree the player they want is better then it rests on them.
Don't be fooled DC into thinking every senero will play for Chud right away.
Banner stressed he wanted to miminc the Eagle situation with Reid.
He didn't become dominate in personnel moves right away,he had to prove he was smart enough to select players ,once he did,the GM became just a grocery shopper.
Chud will be shown the store(with leash attatched) and allowed to go into it and start picking things but if the head guys see his selections are sugary or salty with no substance they're going to stock the bags at first.
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This shouldn't be a democracy and it really surprises me that anything like this occurred with such a strong business man at the helm. Sure input should be taken from everyone, however someone needs to have final say regardless of what the other people involved think.
And somebody will. I never got the impression that it would be done any other way... from every interview I've seen/heard with Haslam and Banner, they weren't going to commit to "the coach has final say" or "the gm has final say" until they saw the pieces as they got assembled then they would decide, based on each individuals strengths, who has final say in what areas...
I agree with Peen to a point.. in an organization like this (not unlike a family) you try to build consensus, you want the whole staff on board with your decisions, that promotes a better working atmosphere if people feel their input is valued and considered.. but in the end, you aren't ever going to build a total consensus so somebody has to man-up and make the final decision and then not apologize or look back...
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Heckert has proven he can evaluate talent into the later rounds. Something we have been missing.
Larry Asante
Carlton Mitchell
Cliffton Geathers
Jordan Cameron
Owen Marecic
Buster Skrine
Jason Pinkston
Eric Hagg
Travis Benjamin
James-Michael Johnson
Ryan Miller
Emmanuel Acho
Billy Winn
Trevin Wade
Brad Smelley
Average at best.
Well, it's easy to pick the worst of what he's done and decide that that is his legacy,.....
What are you talking about? That's every pick Heckert made in the 4th round or later in his three drafts here, which flies in the face of the argument that Heckert did an above-average–to–exceptional job evaluating late-round talent. I didn't "pick the worst" of anything. It's not bad, but it certainly isn't setting the world on fire like some people are making it out to be.
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Hmm... two starters (Winn and Pinky) and at least four contributors (Benjamin, Skrine, JMJ and Cameron) in the fourth round and beyond. I'd say that's pretty above average for players picked in the true Crap-Shoot Zone of the NFL draft.
[color:"white"]"Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
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That's every pick Heckert made in the 4th round or later in his three drafts here, which flies in the face of the argument that Heckert did an above-average–to–exceptional job evaluating late-round talent.
What is the average success rate of teams in late rounds? I'm not talking about picking out the once in a generation Tom Brady in the 6th pick.. I'm talking about how many 4th round plus guys are still on the team that drafted them 2, 3, 4 years later...
I have no idea whether Heckert is above or below that average...
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Still on teams? Who knows. I don't really consider "still on the team" to be the definition of a successful pick.
Benjamin, Winn and Pinkston look to be quality players that can stick around and contribute on Sundays. Maybe JMJ. The rest of them you could replace tomorrow and it wouldn't affect the quality of the team one bit.
Again, not saying he did a bad job. Just that he didn't do the amazing job that some make it out to be. I would expect that just about every team has found a starter and a few good depth pieces in the late rounds over a three-year span.
Average.
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Still on teams? Who knows. I don't really consider "still on the team" to be the definition of a successful pick.
Benjamin, Winn and Pinkston look to be quality players that can stick around and contribute on Sundays. Maybe JMJ. The rest of them you could replace tomorrow and it wouldn't affect the quality of the team one bit.
Again, not saying he did a bad job. Just that he didn't do the amazing job that some make it out to be. I would expect that just about every team has found a starter and a few good depth pieces in the late rounds over a three-year span.
Average.
I think that is incredibly fair as an assessment of those picks.
I think the reason we were so happy with Heckert is that he did not seem to "miss" on many of his early picks (top50) and even the later 2nd round picks have shown promise after rough starts (Hardesty/Little).
We just never had that here while we had to watch Baltimore/Pitt keep picking long-term starters in those rounds the last decade.
I hope that the new FO can continue to do that while finding a QB (if it is not Weeden - initial season was disappointing, but we will see what Chud thinks he can do with him).
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For some reason I had been attributing the 2009 Draft to Heckert. Only upon looking back now have I realized that was all Mangini and Koko. What an abomination of a draft that was.
Heckert did pretty well here compared to what had come before. I believe his drafts were above league average but not astonishingly so, which is basically good enough to get you into the superbowl. If you look at some teams in the playoffs now their drafts aren't especially fantastic either. It is a strange thing to look at the Patriots drafts and realize they have sort of stunk. (Minus the great tight ends).
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Lombardi might not be solely making the picks but he is still gonna be responsible for the scouting and the putting together of the Draft Board and that is for me a very scary thought. He has a habit of drafting athletes and not necessarily the best football player.
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I didn't consider that speculation. Weren't we told there would be the HC, GM/H of PP, Banner and Haslam in the war room? I'm pretty sure we were.
maybe speculation isn't the right word....I'm simply referring to the perception that there is no one "genus" in the group... savvy veteran gm so to speak. And I'm not privy to any info...when I mention the coordinators i'm referring to them having input into the direction the team takes.
I understand what you are saying about too many people causes chaos. Draft day isn't for knee jerk reactions. The plan...or board is set well before draft day. If you brain storm a bunch of different situations, and have a plan for each of them, then you just pull names down as they are drafted.
Its kind of like the argument of drafting for bpa or need. The first is good...the latter bad.
You can however get the best of both worlds if a need happens to be the bpa...or has an even grade with another position. The only real way to affect this yourself is thru a trade...and that is out of your control if you don't have a partner, and you might have to take an uneven trade to do it.
My point is that the various scenarios are planned out by the group before hand in a manner that best addresses the needs and concerns of all those involved.
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So accordingly, if everyone has to report to Banner, doesn't that strongly indicate who actually has final say?
and this
Well the hwole "group effort" thing is a great locker room speach, in the business world there is a pecking order and a final decision maker that makes the ultimate decision.
Why is everyone getting so caught up on this? Someone OBVIOUSLY has final say. I can't remember exactly what was said, but I do believe you are right in saying they report to banner.
There is a big difference between one guy just flat out saying that "this is how its going to be" and a group coming up with the best possible outcomes for the team to take. This don't occur on draft day when the clock is ticking.
Obviously someone would have to make a choice that option 1 isn't going to happen, so we go with option 2. Or option one don't look possible, but if we make this trade we can accomplish the same goals as option 1 but with a different player.
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Once again, we know how this thing was laid out to us. I believe this group of coaches will have a "wish list" of players they like. However, in the end, much as you have described, the more important thing will be "the type of player needed" to work within their systems they wish to run.
So far, to date, what the "personnel control" of the HC has been described as, that he has the final say on the final 53 man roster and who starts.
Again, I'm not talking about the "player" as much as the direction. At the end of the day a team has needs. These preferably need to be addressed in free agency.
The head coach has to field a team...if one position is weak then you have to scheme to hide it, and that might not help in the end anyway. The head coach does have a lot of say. The trick on draft day is to put yourself in a position to get quality starters without reaching that will fill potential needs of the team down the road, or maybe right away in some cases with the higher rounds.
We have been a team that has been counting on late rounders to be miraculous saviors and starters out of the gate. Our higher picks were expected to part the red sea. Successful teams stick rarely throw a bunch of rookies in as starters.
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We know what he was hired to do and we know the results. Unless you have anything other than your claim of "bunk" to add, I'd say the overwhelming evidence "de-bunks your bunk".
bunk....infinity
What evidence? That the picks weren't good? I'll give you that, the results weren't good. But here's the thing...do you know for a fact that he didn't recommend player x and bellicheck picked player y instead? Or the same didn't happen in oakland? You do realize that it's probably around 50/50 on getting a good player in the first round...and worse after that.
I don't know how many drafts he was a part of, but if it was say 6, then he had a chance to pick 6 first rounders...which history says that 3 will pan out. Even if he had total say some would say that sucks. This dosen't even consider other things that he has no control over. Maybe a pick of a running back would have been a successful starter...even pro-bowler, but he blew out a knee on a cheap shot. Is that a bad pick? Maybe a qb would have been a solid starter but he never developed because the oline sucked. Maybe a guy that could have been a great safety developed a drug problem. Heck maybe the team changed coaches and schemes every 2-3 years and they never got comfortable in a system.
It's real easy to use hindsight after the fact, when you remove a ton of variables from the equation. Fact is we don't know...lombardi might just suck...guess we are going to find out.
I missed what you said about banner...my only point with him is that he's been around the nfl for years. That experience is invaluable to a new owner I would think.
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Maybe because as it has been described to us, he'll be one of the votes in the war room? Or maybe he's forgotten he doesn't know how to do that yet?
It's not "that he hired someone", it's that that "someone's" life long friend" decided to take away his power at a former job and hand the reigns over to other people. It's that most every NFL agent doesn't like negotiating with the guy and if he hasn't totally changed his startegy, he won't pony up the $$$ to land us any quality FA's or pay the $$$ to keep established players. But we'll see....
I think they said he would "be in the war room" I would imagine if you pay a billion you can sit there if you want. Now if he's gonna do an "Al Davis" then yeah we should be worried. I don't think he's going to though.
And as far as banner goes. What's your point. Maybe he did have a big head. Maybe he was set in his ways. Maybe he was training his replacement. Maybe he was getting back stabbed. Maybe he was right and Reid was wrong. Who knows?
There is something to be said about sticking to a plan. Bellicheck trades alot of players if they want too much, and picks up more draft picks. You can't be held hostage by a player either. Oh but the fans will be mad. Well if you keep winning nobody seems to care.
And lastly in regards to the coaching search. You and I have no idea what the plan was. You say they missed on this guy or that guy. Or they wouldn't come here because of banner or lombardi. You might be right. You certainly have a right to feel that way. I don't.
I don't know haslam from the next guy. But from what I can see is he seems to be dilligent. You point out how we lost this guy or that guy, but you have no idea how any of them will do.
Seems to me that the media are the ones that said kelly was our number 1...right after they said saban was our number one....right before they speculated that cowher was a possibility.
I see a guy that interviewed all sorts of candidates....and picked the one that he was most comfortable with. We now have a great oc, and a good dc to help him out.
Couple that with two guys that have been in personel for ages. One that knows the cap...the other the draft. Have they both made mistakes? Probably for sure. Are they both experienced....yep.
What was the alternative? A rookie gm? Personally I would have liked to see heckert stay. I also would have liked to see holmgren and shurmur stay too. I think that lack of continuity is the biggest problem facing this team.
The only good thing I can say is i don't see haslam as the type of guy that second guesses his own choices. I think it will pay off in the end. Who knows, but we'll see.
Attitude is everything....FEAR THE ELF!!!
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