DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Horton: It Won't Be a Hybrid

I hope that it's OK to start a new thread, because I thought that this was pretty important.

For those thinking that we're going to have some hybrid defense ....... it looks like not.

Cleveland Browns defensive coordinator Ray Horton says he'll run a 3-4 defense here in radio interview | cleveland.com
http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ss...t_river_default

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Browns new defensive coordinator Ray Horton made it clear Thursday during a radio interview that he plans to run a 3-4 defense here instead of the 4-3 Dick Jauron ran for the past two years.

"It'll be a 3-4 defense, the same defense we ran (in Arizona),'' Horton told 910 AM in Arizona. "It won't be a hybrid unless you're playing golf.''

He also said his scheme will mirror that of the Steelers, where he worked from 2004-10 under defensive genius Dick LeBeau, who runs an attack-minded 3-4.

Chudzinski re-iterated Thursday night at the Greater Cleveland Sports Awards that the Browns will run both the 3-4 and 4-3, more of a hybrid of the two fronts. The reason it's an issue is become some key players, such as defensive end Jabaal Sheard and tackle Ahtyba Rubin, are more suited to the 4-3. Linebacker D'Qwell Jackson has also excelled in the 4-3.

But even owner Jimmy Haslam acknowledged "probably we’ll switch to the 3-4 defense'' under Horton. "I think it’ll be an attacking defense. He told me in Phoenix with the Arizona Cardinals that he blitzed more than anybody in the league except for the Houston Texans. So I think it’ll be exciting and fun to watch. He’s really excited about the players we have here. We need to add one or two to really round out the team. But I think you’ll like him as a person and like him as a coach. Of course, we knew him from the Steelers and when we interviewed him for this job, [he was] fired up, intense. I think he’ll relate extremely well to players.''

The day he was introduced Chudzinski did say the defensive scheme would "tie in more with the coordinator that I’ll hire, and I think we have the versatility of going either way.”

Shocker.

I still see our defensive line as being able to switch pretty easily. I think Sheard can rush the passer standing up. Beyond that we needed more linebackers as it was.

My main worry is the D'Qwell Jackson. He thrived in the 4-3. Hopefully Horton can use Jackson similar to how he used Daryl Washington in Arizona. They have similar body types, but Washington is faster.

Horton says to the media he would have delivered Norv if he had been hired by the Cards as HC and now he and Chud are apparently in disagreement with what system they are even going to run. OO this has the making of Buddy vs. Ditka

Well, that's just dumb...but we are the Browns.

Apparently he has learned nothing while learning under Tomlin. You adapt your talent to scheme, not the other way around.

Yeah, but it's just a "litle" rebuild, lol

Newsflash: we're as close to teardown or total rebuild as it gets. The last piece missing is changing the QB and with these Stooges running the show my money is on Geno Smith or some other rookie starting in September for the Browns

Same old, same old Browns

lol
I cant imagine living as pessimistic as you do.

Well... this will be interesting if nothing else. LOL Our front seven will be lacking in two of the most difficult positions to fill for a 3-4: DE and OLB. Rubin and Taylor can man the NT spot (IF Taylor can handle the switch mentally, that is - no guarantee there). Winn MIGHT be able to play DE, but that remains to be seen. We'll need to find at least two new DEs to make this work.

DQ will descend back into mediocrity as a 3-4 ILB. Hopefully, Gocong will be able to come back and stay healthy as the other inside backer. We really don't have ANY OLBs on our roster today. I'm sure Sheard will get a chance there, but he'll be a rookie all over again and a project at the position that may, or may not, work out. We're going to need 2-3 new OLBs before all is said and done. I can't wait to see how Lombardi & Company conduct a search for the perfect tweener to play OLB.

Fasten your seatbelts ladies and gentlemen, it's going to be a bumpie ride for at least a season or two defensively.

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The reason it's an issue is become some key players, such as defensive end Jabaal Sheard and tackle Ahtyba Rubin, are more suited to the 4-3. Linebacker D'Qwell Jackson has also excelled in the 4-3.

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That's an issue for sure, but the real issue is that the HC and DC aren't on the same page and the owner appears to be saying the same thing as the DC

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But even owner Jimmy Haslam acknowledged "probably we’ll switch to the 3-4 defense'' under Horton. "I think it’ll be an attacking defense. He told me in Phoenix with the Arizona Cardinals that he blitzed more than anybody in the league except for the Houston Texans.

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You can live or die by the blitz.. Kosar routinely beat the Blitz. But if you got the personnel to pull it off,, I really don't have a problem with it

Just thinking that perhaps Chud, Haslam and Horton should have a conversation...

Now I'm wondering who hired horton,, was it chud or was it Banner and Haslam?

If we are gonna do a lot of blitzing.. I am hoping we draft CB Milliner. Nothing worse than blitzing and WR's are wide the hell open. I would love to have Jarvis Jones or Moore, but if you are blitzing my philosophy is mismatches > skill. If you have 5 olinemen and i'm sending 6, i dont need the most talented blitzer, but i need a GREAT corner to cover the receivers.

...just some general comments...

I'm more worried about the changes being made on the defensive side than I am on the offensive side.

CHANGE IS NOT A GOOD THING...change will set a team back...

I question the quality of the defensive coaching staff being assembled vs the quality of the defensive coaching staff we just fired.

Changing the Browns defense back to a 3-4 will likely be less productive in the first year
...in the second year of the 3-4 there might be some improvement.
...by the third year, if well coached, there should be marked improvement

BUT...had the Browns kept the 4-3 defense and coaching staff, with added experience there would also be improvement...therefore, it's difficult to understand the reasoning why the Browns made the switch back to a 3-4 defense.

Looking at the top 4 defenses in the NFL in 2012...2 were 4-3 defenses and 2 were 3-4 defenses.

# 1 ranked defense.... steelers......run a 3-4 defense
#2 ... " ..... " ..............broncos....... "... 4-3 "
#3 .. " ...... " ...............49ers.......... ".. 3-4 "
#4 .. " ......." ............seahawks....... "... 4-3 "

IMO, it does not matter what scheme a team runs!

What matters is the quality of the coaching staff, their ability to teach and sticking with one defensive scheme so the players gain experience in that scheme.

Interesting. Regardless, I'm sure they'll still run aspects of the 4-3 (most 3-4 D's do) and, depending on "need" we may not make a complete switchover (personnel-wise) this first season. I hope they stick with some type of BPA philosophy. On the plus side, the draft is deep at DE/OLB. On the downside, I'm not comforted by the fact that Horton & Chud are saying two different things.

All those EGOs are too busy posing in front of a mirror, none is at the SR Bowl and now they don't even talk or read/watch what the others have said? Good start....

Poor Chud seems to be the only "humble" guy around in Berea with propper mannerism. We always have ONE good guy around but just never get the whole structure right

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Sorry Bud, but we have watched how this dog and pony show worked before....

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Damn skippy we did, and it was a disaster. I see us right back into the situation where teams run on us at will, with Jamal Lewis types having record setting games. Teams will convert 3rd downs (short or long) damn near every chance they get because our LB's will be out of position trying to learn a new system. Like you said, we've seen it before.

look, it's a tad frustrating with all the other teams moving to a 3-4 (StL, NO - KC staying in 3-4) making it harder to find those guys.

but, we were a bottom third defense. switching to a 3-4 might have us take a step back initially, but it might not. sign Spencer (looks like Dallas will let him leave) and Phillips (from SD) and Rhodes (FS from Zona). There we have stop-gaps for our biggest needs on defense.

i'm not sure Sheard can be an OLB. we might ship him off. some of our LBers don't seem to fit. but, we're not talking about rebuilding a top10 defense here.

Lets all settle down and look at the roster as its put together here!


On the DL, if we start:

Billy Winn on the right side of the defense, we effectively use his skill set. He is a bigger guy, that you put on the pass rush side and he kills it. He is big, quick, and disruptive. He will either demand a double team freeing up the rush OLB or make things very difficult on the OT or G...thats his job. Also, as an NFL DT this past year, he became much more stout at the point of attack. He will not be mauled in the run game.
As his direct backup you have Frostee Rucker...who is equally stout and very good against the run game. He is used to playing 4-3 DE, but he's spent his entire career playing it like a 3-4 DE would play it, eating up blockers and taking down the RB.

In the middle...you go big Ahtyba Rubin, who's been a 3-4 NT before, will play that role well, and will most likely succeed again. Now that he doesnt have to play 70 snaps he will be more effective. He is stout at the point, has great hustle, and is a great blocker eater...and if he doesnt, he can disrupt the pocket.
His backup, Ishmai'ly Kitchen is equally big, and learned the 3-4 in Baltimore...They have very similar size and skill sets. He's a no brainer to backup the 3-4 NT spot.

On the strong side of the offense you go Big Phil...He weighs 330, but plays like hes 298. He can, and most likely WILL be a JJ Watt type player. He is disruptive, physical, strong, fast, quick and exactly what you need. Dont look at his size and say na cant do it. Cuz he is perfectly suited for it. He will dominate as the 3-4 DE playing where teams run the most (off the right side, left side of the defense).
John Hughes, can spend the year learning how to back him up, because Hughes skill set most resembles Big Phil's in my opinion. He's big, quick, and disruptive. He makes things very difficult on the OL, and is a good run stuffer. Thats perfect for us. Its what we need.

That gives us our 6 DLers that are all really good at their job. And well suited for the 3-4. Thats starters and backups...and we can find an additional guy either late in the draft, or a UDFA or a cheap FA that can get it done. Several teams are switching from 3-4s to 4-3s which should leave DLers on the outside looking in. The only hangup is that Frostee may not want to be a 3-4 guy, in which case we'd have to replace a backup. Easy enough.


as for the LBers...

DQ and JMJ play inside. DQ has done it before and JMJ did it at Nevada. DQ struggled in Romeo's/Mangini's 3-4...but he was never bad. He has shown improvement since his injuries, and I think has become a smarter player, and will learn from a guy like Horton in how to attack the LOS...in addition, having better guys around him will make him better. JMJ is a better 3-4 ILB than any player he had next to him in previous 3-4s.
Backups are pretty much set with LJ Fort and Craig Robertson...these guys have skill sets that fit the 3-4 pretty well. Theyre rangy, they run, and they arent afraid to stick their nose in in the run game. Fort and DQ have shown the propensity to be sealed off by blockers...but with our DLers that'll be easier for em, and something that they'll have to learn to do better. If not Robertson, than Gocong has experience as a 3-4 ILB (though i think he's suited better for the outside).

On the outside you start our newly freshly minted #6 pick (preferably Bjoern Werner...but Damontre Moore is a great choice as well...please no Jarvis Jones, spinal stenosis means unhealthy in the NFL, see Suggs, Lee.) on the pass rush side behind Billy Winn. We'll get our job done very well out there with a guy that is projected to do phenomenal out there.
as his backup...we find a guy. This is a big empty spot as we have no one else that could perform there admirably. This is a spot we'd have to fill, backup OLB. Unless a guy like Robertson shows he can play well there...which I would expect him to be able to do, and maybe we go with him...then we'd need a backup ILB
On the other side outside, you share with Gocong and Jabaal Sheard. Two guys who have shown they are very good at stopping the run. Putting them on the strong side of the offense, and the rush side (and the TE side) they do a good job. If you want your OLB to cover the TE on a play, you go Gocong, and also give him the ability to rush if he wants, or stuff the run, and if you want a blitzer you go hard with Sheard. This way Sheard learns the spot while backing up Gocong for a year until his contract is up. Then we can decide what we have in either of them, and can make a move either way, but we have our backup there.



Our front 7 is suited for a 3-4...there may be a slight adjustment period...but we have the correct pieces to do the 3-4 very well...It may not be PERFECT at first, but it will get very good very quickly.

Rucker and DQ are the only guys that have either no experience or struggled in the 3-4 and are long time veterans...but mind you, Rucker isnt even 30 yet. DQ is right around there...

Personally, I think that Robertson could step in and start over DQ on the inside in our 3-4...but seeing what our D did without DQ in the past makes me hesitate to say that very convincingly.


Robertson is our big wild card in my opinion to our 3-4 as a LB. i think he has the ability to play any spot in the 3-4, and would be successful, its where Horton thinks he will be, that has to be decided, and we should let him get after it and beast up. Which i am pretty sure he can do after seeing him this year.

JMJ is the x-factor in making this go...He's played in it before and has done well. He is suited for it, and we're all set to make this engine go, because he has that ability.

Yes our OLBs are a concern...but we have guys that are young, or have done it before that can make it serviceable for the time being until we get those guys...and if we go OLB in the 1st...we're solidified.



All of the rumors on Chud and Horton not being on the same page are overblown. Chud is speaking democratically, and Horton is speaking his mind. It's fine. It's January 25th. they don't have to be on the same page today. By March it would be smart. By April it would be smarter, and by July...they better know.
But look at it this way. when Chud was hired, it was widely reported that we would go 3-4...and if you think Chud hired Ray Horton...a man who has spent his ENTIRE career playing and coaching in the 3-4 with thoughts of running a HYBRID defense or a 4-3...youre silly. that only happens in Buffalo (Mike Pettine)
They'll get together and have a defensive plan LOCKED down soon.


And to those saying we dont have the players...are looking at past and not potential/ability.
Winn was stated to be a better 3-4 DE coming out of the draft
Phil is a PERFECT 3-4 DE, because he has speed, quickness, strength, and size...in fact he has MORE size than usual 3-4 DEs...he's got a unique X-Factor.
Rubin has done it
Kitchen has done it
Hughes will learn from Phil and be Phil like
Rucker has played 4-3 DE like a 3-4 DE his entire career...
Wheres the hangup?
DQ struggled...sure...but he had little talent around him. I'd look bad if I started next to Eric Barton too...behind Jason Fisk, and Babatunde Oshinowo...
JMJ played it before.
Fort and Robertson have skill sets that make it work
Gocong has been in it, but with his abilities against the run, he is better outside.
Sheard likes the 4-3...maybe miscast, but he's 255 and quick...he can spend an offseason learning how to drop in coverage. Learning how to hold a TE. But he has spent his entire career passrushing against RTs...Now he'll be attacking RTs OR TEs...Jabaal vs a TE? Good night.


We need a couple backers, and a DE...

Stop all this noise about it being miscast and everything we built going for nothing. The only real offenses we faced this year rang us up. Giants murdered us, and we started strong getting sacks, and then didnt get many the rest of the year. We got worse.

Lets attack, and in a couple offseasons we replace our miscast guys. We'll be better off, because we will have a more confident coordinator who is less afraid to do what he does. Jauron played base, Horton will attack.


Mostly...im amped to see what TJ Ward will bring with Horton's tutelage.

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Condecsending much?

No, you're the only one who undersdtands how this works.



We didn't already watch this process not so long ago. I hate to break it to you, this board isnt full of a bunch of newbies that don't understand the game.

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When did we watch this process not so long ago? A couple years ago when we switched from the 3-4 to the 4-3? for the years leading up to that in the 3-4 we were consistently ranked in the high 20s and even in the 30s in yards allowed and in the high teens and 20s in points allowed.. in our very first year in the 4-3 we were 10th in yards and 5th in points... seems like we made the transition fairly well in our first year.. then in our second year, we regressed considerably, actually going back to where we started.. 23rd in yards allowed and 19th in points allowed.. yea, I'd hate to do anything to jeopardize that kind of success.

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As it stands, we have too many DL players and not enough LB'ers. To try to even hint that there won't be a big turn around to fit the new scheme is laughable at best.

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Which means that somewhere there is probably a team with a wealth of LBs and in need of DL.. so you find them and you trade somebody...

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Oh heck yeah! There are not only six players worthy of the 6th pick, but there are six players at one position that grade out as being worthy of the sixth overall pick in the draft!

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I won't argue the numbers.. but we only need one. A lot of people said we really needed a better OLB any way even in the 4-3... so it's just a matter of taking a different type of OLB than we were going to take.

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Well please explain how we are going to cover our deficiancy in the secondary so we don't get burned by the blitz all of the time? Sheldon Brown is getting old and are you suggesting Skrine will work?

You live by the blitz and you die by the blitz. The way you die by it is not having a solid secondary.

I'm not necassarily advocating we take a CB at #6, but to suggest you don't need a very sold secondary to run a blitzing 3-4 is far more silly than the other ideas I've seen posted.

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The Steelers and Eagles had pretty good defensive success for years with a blitzing attacking defense and a relatively weak secondary, the way you protect a weak secondary is by harassing the QB...

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Well of course! Let's take a LB'er who had 158 tackles in 2011 and 118 tackles in 2012 and kick him to the curb.

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He had 154 tackles in 2008 in the 3-4...

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You just think you can take player A who plays in the 4-3 and insert him into the 3-4 and MAGIC! His skill set will just transfer because of his size or speed.

Sit back and watch. It doesn't work that way. And you say it's us who doesn't understand? Sorry Bud, but we have watched how this dog and pony show worked before....

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So are you saying that if we switch to the 3-4, we will be worse than 23rd in yards and 19th in points? Just want to make sure I understand the parameters of the problem here...

We were only 3 players away from having a top ten defense this year IMO A Starting OLB who can get after the QB, one starting CB, and a Starting FS other than that all we lack is more depth at LB and DB Now switching to a 3-4 is going to set us back as we need much more help at LB and Maybe a starting NT as I think Rubin would play better as a end than a NT

Tashaun Gipson will be just fine at the FS spot.

When he was healthy and playing this year...our "we NEED a FS" talk really really died down. Tashaun is a pretty good player and will be just fine at the FS spot.


We are in need of a CB though.

It will prolly be the biggest worry come draft day. CB or pass rush OLB...

Can you go wrong between Milliner, Werner, and Moore? I dont think you can. Just have to get someone in a different spot.

I think we'd be more apt to find a CB that can start in the 3rd, than an OLB.

Where does Acho fit in OLB or ILB?

j/c.

Honestly, as sad as it makes me to say it, I think we should try to ship Sheard off to Detroit, who is looking to replace two 4-3 DEs. I love the guy's effort but I don't think he's right for the 3-4. I think I'd rather take the pick from them and get Brandon Jenkins or Tank Carradine. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think it would be better for everyone involved if it went down that way.

Where in the world does kwhip get that we need a NT? We've got 4 guys who could effectively play nose in a 3-4 (Rubin, Kitchen, Hughes, Taylor.)

If we are converting, I sure hope we go after and get one or two of Barwin, Spencer, and Phillips (preferably the first two) like NLR suggested. That would make me feel much better. For some reason I feel like Byrd will be a Bengal.

I haven't really seen enough of him to even fathom a guess. I suppose that he could be tried at wherever Robertson doesnt fit.

His draft profile says hes a 4-3 OLB and 3-4 ILB. I'll lean on that, as that's what I kinda remembered hearing going into the draft on him.

We do need extra LBs...Acho could play either, he was Texas' leading tackler his last two seasons, so that seems to benefit his playing the inside in a 3-4 if he is a tackle machine. He isn't a slow guy, but I don't know how rangy he is...I'm not sure what his strengths are.

ah thanks, I forgot about Barwin. I guess I just expect him to re-sign.

I do think that Taylor can play the nose. Rubin has also shown an ability to play the nose. He seems able to play just about anywhere on any DL alignment, so I am hopeful that he can move to DE. We should be able to find another DE from Wynn or Rucker.

I think that Horton is pretty creative, and should be able to come up with some good combinations.

Sheard will be an OLB, and/or 3rd down pass rusher.

I suspect that we will look into free agency for a couple of pieces at LB. We almost have to. The numbers balance is completely wrong.

As far as blitzing ....... I wonder how they count "the most blitzes" ..... when some teams run a 3-4 and some a 4-3? There are almost always 4 pass rushers from the 4-3. Someone much blitz to match that from a 3-4 front. Do they count all of those single player rushes as blitzers?

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Well... this will be interesting if nothing else. LOL Our front seven will be lacking in two of the most difficult positions to fill for a 3-4: DE and OLB.

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Looking at those two positions on our roster and as it pertains to those two positions right now in the 4-3, we are still lacking at DE and OLB.

Rucker, as a 4-3 DE, was a mediocre two-down player. His pass-rush abilities are severely lacking, so I believe he's actually better suited to play DE in the 3-4. He really isn't that great against the run, not nearly as good as the hype, but since he isn't adept at getting to the QB, if he can just eat blockers then he might give us more value in the 3-4.

As for OLB, we have some quick kids but they are over-hyped around here. We had a few moments against bad teams which fooled folks, but once we went against the real teams again they were exposed.

For my eye, we aren't any further away from a good defense in the 3-4 as we are in the 4-3.

Of course I've always been a big proponent of the 3-4, so of course I'm excited about this move.

Rubin can be great on the nose at 6'2 330, and Taylor can be great at DE, as he doesn't possess great pass-rush skills but does have some power.

I'm good with the move, and have been wanting a switch. If this defensive roster was really good as a 4-3 I wouldn't feel that way. As it currently stands, I believe we're just as close to a 3-4 as a 4-3.

It all comes down to finding the right guys. Our 3-4 failed before because the dopes picking the players sucked. There are players available in free agency, and unlike the previous regime, it looks like these guys aren't going to be shy about spending a few bucks.

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As far as blitzing ....... I wonder how they count "the most blitzes" ..... when some teams run a 3-4 and some a 4-3? There are almost always 4 pass rushers from the 4-3. Someone much blitz to match that from a 3-4 front. Do they count all of those single player rushes as blitzers?

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Technically it wouldn't be a blitz unless you're rushing at least one more player than the offense has blockers, regardless of scheme.

I think a blitz in both cases would be more than 4 rushers.

Is it possible that Sheard could play the same role as James Harrison does? Or is that out of the question?

you make it sound easy and hopeful,, Hope you are right about that..

It'll definitely be difficult.

But these guys are pros, they get paid to do these things.

A scheme change for a defense just means different responsibilities. If you think that DQ, and Phil and co. cant sit down watch film and figure out what theyre supposed to do, then work on it in OTAs, minicamps, and TC, and preseason...we'll be in trouble.

I look at their skill sets, from what I see, which is completely amateurish, but I feel like I know enough about sport to understand skill sets and what guys do well and dont do well...and it seems like these guys fit the bill for what good 3-4 guys need to do.