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It will be the responsibility of this coaching staff to coach/teach Sheard how to improve his play in the 3-4 and take advantage of his ability to rush the QB.
Agreed... and it is the fans responsibility to understand that there might be a year of transition where his numbers aren't what they used to be....
yebat' Putin
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Kam Wimbley has given DE to OLB transitions a bad name.
Sheard should have a very similar season to what he had this year in a 3-4. If Robert Mathis and Freeney could do it, then so can Sheard.
you had a good run Hank.
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Sheard should have a very similar season to what he had this year in a 3-4. If Robert Mathis and Freeney could do it, then so can Sheard.
Freeney has averaged almost 10 sacks a year for his career, his first year in the 3-4 he had 5... and 12 tackles.. Mathis fared better but still had his lowest sack total since 2007... and the defense gave up more yards than it did when they went 2-14.... Overall the Colts defense improved some in the points it gave up and won enough games to make the playoffs, but it's not because Mathis and Freeney made a great transition to OLB...
yebat' Putin
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They're also both old as dirt now, too, though. 
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
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If he takes a step back he takes a step back. Its something that happens. We'll get there with him.
Despite what many of us think, and I'm pretty sure that is on the previous regimes...we have the ability to transition without taking a step back as a defense.
Haloti Ngata and Phil Taylor have had similar skill sets since they entered the league. Ngata plays at 325 and is disruptive, quick, and does his job extremely well. Phil plays at 330, and is the exact same in those two things. He can do his job as a 3-4 DE very well.
JJ Watt and Billy Winn play a very similar style as well...though JJ Watt does it so much better. They go hard to the pass rush, they defend the run, and they use their strength as their main move. Winn uses quickness and block shedding ability more than Watt, who seems to use the bull rush more...but they can both disrupt offenses with limited down linemen.
It will be on our defensive staff to make sure that we use the 3-4 to maximize the talents of our guys...
Our linemen that would work the best as 3-4 guys...as DLers that do that kind of a job, are Winn, Rubin, and Taylor...There were a number of times this season that we had these 3 lined up, and we rushed Sheard standing up.
The guys that we have can succeed in it, and we have the coaching staff that can maximize their talents...I think that using a DL where Winn and Rucker play the same spot, Rubin and Kitchen play the same spot, and Taylor and Hughes play the same spot will allow the responsibilities to not change between starter and backup, that will put the guys in spots where they can do their job very well, and allow our defense to be incredibly effective.
Our LBs...their responsibilities will change...but DQ and JMJ can play inside.
LJ Fort can play inside.
Robertson seems to have the ability to play in either spot. He is a wild card, but has shown to be an effective LB regardless of situation. He has shown me through his work on the field, and his name being called often, and not for mistakes...that he deserves field time. I dont care where, just play the man.
Gocong played inside for us, but to me he seems better suited to be an OLB on the strong side of the offense...being there for stopping the run. Sheard can be on that side as well, and can rush the passer as he's used to. While he adjusts to the position, and then when Gocong's contract runs up, he can take over full time...
We have the pieces to make an effective defense. We have guys that have the ability to manage the responsibilities that a 3-4 requires...but the one piece that is missing is that mean pass rusher opposite Sheard, and behind Billy Winn/Frostee
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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Horton Hates a Hybrid?
an elephant is willing to sit on an egg, but hates a hybrid. ah well.
#gmstrong
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Certainly playing on the wrong side of 30 hurts a little.
I'm just not seeing how expecting Sheard to take a huge step back should be expected. There are many examples of DE's making this transition and being plenty successful, why can't Sheard? Unless you are doubting the ability of Horton to transition the talent, to which I say that's hogwash.
The reason why Horton was one of the best DC's the past few years was his ability to take the Cardinals 4-3 defense and quickly turn it into his own 3-4 defense with nearly the same crop of players.
you had a good run Hank.
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All Sheard will have to do is rush the passer. That is what he is good at. Sometimes his hand will even be in the ground. On a rare occasion he will be asked to drop into a zone. He will be fine.
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There is a press conference tomorrow with Chud and Horton starting at 10 AM.
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Certainly playing on the wrong side of 30 hurts a little.
I'm just not seeing how expecting Sheard to take a huge step back should be expected.
LOL... that's not what I said... what I said is that it wouldn't surprise me if his stats don't drop off a little and that fans should relax and give him some time to make the transition... that's all I said..
yebat' Putin
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There is a press conference tomorrow with Chud and Horton starting at 10 AM.
that one should answer a lot of questions and settle a few arguments.
If you read the various news stories, you would think these two guys are on different pages.. But I have a hard time believing that Chud would hire someone he doesn't believe in and I don't see Banner and Haslam pushing this guy on him.
So my guess is, tomorrow we'll see that things are all Rosey.
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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Its the first time they will have had a chance to talk I hear
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I didn't mean you, specifically.
I meant the overwhelming thought that somehow Sheard doesn't fit into a 3-4.
you had a good run Hank.
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I didn't mean you, specifically.
I meant the overwhelming thought that somehow Sheard doesn't fit into a 3-4.
Very good then... carry on.
yebat' Putin
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Its the first time they will have had a chance to talk I hear
Well then, another article on here is incorrect because they supposedly interviewed.
So,, like I said, I'm pretty sure things will be Rosey and I have no doubt that very question will be asked by some reporter tomorrow.,
So I guess we'll find out which is accurate.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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What exactly are you saying?
What I'm saying is that the 4-3 and the 3-4 require different skill sets. If you look over the past 10 drafts, you will see that NT's DE's and LBer's for the 3-4 are often drafted higher. The demand is greater and costs are generaly higher.
I can't predict some of our talent won't transition well any more than people can predict they will. It's a crap shoot to a great degree at this juncture.
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Taylor was a 21 pick. Does that qualify?
Of course it qualifies. He looks to be a good prospect filling the NT position on the 3-4.
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I believe you will see alot of 3-4 Ends not high picks. But of course the best of the best were high picks I'm sure.
The same could be said for any position in the NFL. I was going from Toads examples BTW, not my own.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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He's not a NT though...
He wouldnt play there in a 3-4. his size fits that of a NT, but his style of game is perfect for the LDE. He is a superb run stuffer, and he does one of two things. Commands a double team and holds the point, or beats a one-on-one. Its what he does best. He is terrific against the run, and is fast enough and strong enough to collapse a pocket. He plays the game like Haloti Ngata, who was originally a NT, but has been MUCH better as a DE. He was a NT for his size, but is a better fit as a DE.
Phil is not a NT in what our 3-4 will look like. If we play a LeBeau style...we need a big immovable guy...thats Rubin, thats Kitchen. Phil isnt that kind of a player
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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Phil Taylor will play the Darnell Dockett role in our defense.
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Which is on the outside...though it looks like he plays the RDE/DT spot...he plays off the ball, which is a good place.
I'd feel that he'd be more effective on the strong side of teams run games...because he has Docket by 30lbs...Though Phil isnt a Calais Campbell type, thats more Billy Winn...
Thats fair.
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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Calais Campbell is a freak of nature who has no comparison.
EDIT: I know you weren't comparing Winn to Campbell, just wanted to throw that in there.
Last edited by cfrs15; 01/28/13 03:32 PM.
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Phil Taylor will play the Darnell Dockett role in our defense.
Well that's just great of you to be so optimistic and all but he's never played in the 3-4 D nor was he drafted to play in the 3-4 D.
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If the Browns have it their way, that won't change any time soon. Taylor is expected to be a vital cog in Cleveland's new 4-3 defense this season.
"I feel great just to be out there with the guys practicing and learning a new defense," Taylor said. "I've played in the 4-3 my whole college career. So it's not that hard."
Taylor Has Always Played In the 4-3
For all of our sakes I certainly hope you are right. But there's no evidence to say whether Taylor could be more than a NT in the 3-4.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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" But there's no evidence to say whether Taylor could be more than a NT in the 3-4. "
Reading these posts,there appears to be overwhelming evidence that every one of our guys that were drafted for the 43 are now perfectly capable of playing in the 34.
How soon everybody forgets;
We need a coach that will tailor his schemes to fit our personnel,not force his schemes upon the players.
The prevailing sentiment on the board is that after 3 years our D wasn't that good anyhow,so let's change the scheme.
Bill Parcells once said it takes 3 years for him to get his guys and implement his schemes,so we'll give Willie Horton his 3 years.If,he can't pull a Parcells,fire his ass and go back to a 43.
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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so we'll give Willie Horton his 3 years.If,he can't pull a Parcells,fire his ass and go back to a 43.
After having spent 3 years trying to get better 3-4 players and getting our existing players to make the transition? That doesn't make a whole lot of sense either...
yebat' Putin
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Well that's just great of you to be so optimistic and all but he's never played in the 3-4 D nor was he drafted to play in the 3-4 D.
Hopefully the scheme will allow him to do things he is good at instead of forcing things upon him that he is not good at (i.e. Corey Williams).
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Sense?
We're not talking about sense,we're talking about "The Browns Way"
In 3 years time I won't be the one calling for a new coach if the D isn't top ten.But many of these same posters that are now telling us how easy it is to make the transition to a 34 willbe calling for Horton's head.
That's just the way things are.
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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"No one,let me repeat that,no one worth a crap will be coming here." - BCbrownie, 12/30/12
Since then both Norv Turner and Ray Horton have come.
Horton is worth a crap. He will incorporate his player's skills into his scheme just as he did in Arizona.
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You definitely got me there,as I did post that.
Since then Norv has come aboard and he happens to be one the better OC's in football.
Horton,I know little about,but since you say he's good,I now have serious reservations about his capabilities.
My mental telepathy skills must be working well today.I was just talking about posters who will whining and crying about a new DC in 3 year's time,and lo and behold you starting chirping.
I better get my lottery numbers in.
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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I think you have me confused with someone else. I wanted to stick with Jauron. The only coach I actively called to have fired was Shurmur.
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Horton was the chosen one to replace Lebeau. The steelers held onto him for years then finally let him go on his own. His D is fun to watch but lets not forget this is the D that gave up 58 pts to the Seahawks and really looked like crap at times down the stretch.
I am one of those that do believe most of our players will translate well to this version of the 3-4. Heckert drafted athleticism and hustle. I think Horton is able to communicate well with his players and his system is very fun for players. If a guy has athleticism and Hustle, he can thrive in this system.
Not all will succeed but there may be some surprises as well. I want to see how some of these backers react to being asked to kill the QB over and over and over. I want to see TJ Ward turned loose.
I prefer the 4-3 but if you are going to a 3-4 this is the system I prefer. Its damn near Buddy Ball.
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All Pro
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if the 3-4 is imminent then there is no other available coach I would prefer to implement it here than Horton.JMO
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and despite the whole team not playing well the last couple of weeks knowing the whole organization was about to undergo a massive rebuild, Horton's D still ended the year ranked #2 in pass defense and #17 in rush defense.
Jauron's consistently was in the bottom third for each in both of his seasons using efficiency stats (and that is despite the defense being ahead of the offense).
yeah, i'll take my chances with Horton.
#gmstrong
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Just an FYI for you Toad. I only looked up a couple of names on your list I was familiar with...Haloti Ngata and Justin Smith.
Yeah, you cherry-picked a couple of pro-bowlers. Nice. 
A VERY poor and transparent attempt if I've ever seen one, and not worthy of debate.
Though I would say I don't know what worse: The fact you even attempted to pass off that ham-fisted barrel of dead-fish as evidence, or the fact you elected to attempt to support it with an article that is titled "TOP TIER" defensive ends command big bucks.
Hey, top-tier kickers get big-bucks, too. 
Here's an article about the 3-4 which reflects what pretty-much everyone knows: 3-4 defensive end's are typically guys who are asked to eat blockers to free up the real playmakers of the 3-4: The linebackers...
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3-4 defensive ends can be found easier and are much less expensive when it comes to cap dollars.
-Randy Mueller, former Senior Executive of the Chargers.
And one more from Michael Smith of ESPN:
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web page
Lemme just make this simple for everyone to understand. Here are quotes from people in the know. This is as straight-forward and uncomplicated as it gets:
Randy Mueller: - “the 3-4 defensive end is easier to identify and find when it comes to scouting and acquiring personnel,” while 4-3 DE’s “are rare and hard to find and therefore very expensive to keep. There is no question that speed pass rushers are very much an impact position on the football field and their cap numbers reflect that. On the other hand, 3-4 defensive ends can be found easier and are much less expensive when it comes to ‘cap dollars’.”
Wade Phillips: “It's harder to find defensive linemen to play a 4-3 and pay for all of them… In this day and age, where salary cap is so important, D-linemen are the highest-paid guys. And to get the guys we had in Philadelphia with Reggie White and Jerome Brown and Clyde Simmons, there's no way you could keep those guys [in this day and age]. They didn't keep Reggie anyway. I think linebackers, in reality, are a little bit cheaper, and you can find more of them. You can find more guys who are instinctive, who can run. Some in-between guys sometimes are good at outside backer. It seems to fit better as far as the personnel and really the money that you have to spend on guys on defense."
Now there's a bunch more out there, but the truth is that 4-3 DE's have a bigger responsibility to get to the QB which results in more money being dedicated to that position. Meanwhile, in the 3-4, DE's have less responsibility to do that. Their jobs are more inline with eating blockers and freeing up space for the expensive guys in the 3-4: The Linebackers.
Really...pretending to randomly pick out two pro-bowl 3-4 DE's? Can't believe you'd thought you'd get away with that. 
Now if you REALLY want to continue down this road, I would be more than happy to list the salaries of the top-15 DE's from both the 3-4 and the 4-3 and put this to rest once and for all, or you could just let it go so that the preposterous and obviously wrong idea that 3-4 DE's are more expensive than 4-3 DE's can die it's rightful death.
Your call.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Sheard is the sack leader for the Browns defense.
So was Marcus Bernard in 2010.
So was Kamerion Wimbley in 2009.
So was Shaun Rogers in 2008.
Doesn't make him an all-pro. In fact, your statement doesn't even prove him to be good. It's just an empty sentence.
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His ranking in the NFL this year (2012) places him tied with 4 other DEs, at the 14th position among defensive linemen with 7 sacks.
How many of those players with 7 sacks are all-pro's? There are far better players with less sacks. 7 sacks is nothing special.
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In 2011, Sheard's rookie season, he ranked tied (with Dwight Freeney) for the 9th position among defensive linemen with 8.5 sacks...Sheard also had 5 forced fumbles in 2011.
It was a great rookie season, a season which he regressed from.
Kamerion Wimbley had an equally impressive rookie season, and an equally big regression his second season when teams figured him out.
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Fans should not be dismissive of his talent as the sack leader of the team to justify an agenda.
Nor should fans allow their loyalty to play a role in determining if a player is an all-pro because he is the sack-leader of the team they root for.
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If anything, this coaching staff should put a high priority on capitalizing on Sheard's talent as a sack leader.
Of which I'm sure they have every intention of doing, unless you have knowledge to the contrary.
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It will be the responsibility of this coaching staff to coach/teach Sheard how to improve his play in the 3-4 and take advantage of his ability to rush the QB.
You better write Berea. It's highly improbable that they've considered that option.
Now that I've met ridiculousness with ridiculousness, let's get back on the path of realism...
Sheard has talent. He's no all-pro. He's not particularly stout against the run and does his best work when he can get upfield against singular blocking.
Since the primary responsibility of the 3-4 DE is to eat blockers so that OLB's can be more free to make plays against singular blockers, it shouldn't take Bill Walsh to realize that by switching to the 3-4 that is designed to free up a guy moving to OLB...just like Sheard.
People are considered heretic's who don't worship the ground which is walked upon by Browns players at times. It's no crime to be truthful when noting that Sheard had the league catch up with him this season, and to be realistic when noting he isn't a beast against the run. It's because of that deficiency that he was considered a solid candidate as an OLB in the 3-4 coming out of college. He was by many people the pure definition of the term "tweener." He's also going to be entering only his 3rd year.
I say Sheard is no less a gamble as a 3-4 OLB than he is as a 4-3 DE. It's my opinion that he has more moves to his arsenal than Wimbley ever did and have said so in the past, but like Wimbley he isn't strong against the run and runs the risk of being a one-trick pony. A change to the 3-4 gives him the shot at being everything he has been as a rusher and a little more. People should be on-board with this. The facts back it up.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Phil Taylor will play the Darnell Dockett role in our defense.
I hope NOT...
well, let's hear Dockett will we?
from roto:
"It's not a secret that Dockett was unhappy with his role in old DC Ray Horton's defense. It showed in Dockett's numbers, as he managed 1.5 sacks in 15 games last year while being asked to "two-gap" as a 3-4 end. Under Bruce Arians, Dockett is determined to rediscover 2007-10 form, when he averaged over six sacks per season. Arians promises Dockett will be an interior rusher from here on out, smartly catering to his difference-making player's strengths. "
http://www.azcentral.com/sports/cardinal...?nclick_check=1
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Quote:
Sheard is the sack leader for the Browns defense.
His ranking in the NFL this year (2012) places him tied with 4 other DEs, at the 14th position among defensive linemen with 7 sacks.
In 2011, Sheard's rookie season, he ranked tied (with Dwight Freeney) for the 9th position among defensive linemen with 8.5 sacks...Sheard also had 5 forced fumbles in 2011.
Fans should not be dismissive of his talent as the sack leader of the team to justify an agenda. If anything, this coaching staff should put a high priority on capitalizing on Sheard's talent as a sack leader.
It will be the responsibility of this coaching staff to coach/teach Sheard how to improve his play in the 3-4 and take advantage of his ability to rush the QB.
toadis...quoting myself above, looking at what might have set you off...honestly, I dont know what might have gotten your shorts bunched up like this ?
....all I did was post some "facts" .
Sheard is not "junk", but a diamond in the rough. Now it is up to this new coaching staff to develop his talents and build upon his ability to put pressure on the QB.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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Quote:
Phil Taylor will play the Darnell Dockett role in our defense.
I hope NOT...
well, let's hear Dockett will we?
from roto:
"It's not a secret that Dockett was unhappy with his role in old DC Ray Horton's defense. It showed in Dockett's numbers, as he managed 1.5 sacks in 15 games last year while being asked to "two-gap" as a 3-4 end. Under Bruce Arians, Dockett is determined to rediscover 2007-10 form, when he averaged over six sacks per season. Arians promises Dockett will be an interior rusher from here on out, smartly catering to his difference-making player's strengths. "
http://www.azcentral.com/sports/cardinal...?nclick_check=1
It takes a special kind of person to play DE in the 3-4. To go from collecting sacks just about every game, to just maintaining position so your LB's can get sacks can be difficult to grasp for some players. They have to be unselfish. But again, if you are getting paid a TON of money, you will want to keep the sacks coming.
With Phil @ DE I don't think there will be an issue, or with Winn. Rucker is the only guy who may hate playing DE b/c he came as a free agent to play in the 4-3, and now a year later the scheme changes.
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 |
I wouldn't be too worried about Taylor acting like Dockett. Dockett is the guy who tried to fight a teammate in the huddle and is universally known to be a crazy person.
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 |
Horton had a press conference today. Anyone know what he said?
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Horton: It Won't Be a Hybrid
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