DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Who will be the QB II

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I would much rather see what Weeden has and how far he can go than go get a guy that has proven to be mediocre and isn't the future.

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Competition? If we spend any pick equal or higher than a 3rd to get him and pay him the 7.5mil or even more as some suggest...competition??? and don't even try to Flynn-Wilson this, as BOTH have been brought in by the SAME regime in SEA and Flynn gets some millions less than Smith...with Smith-Weeden, there would be the same "competition" as McCoy-Weeden this past TC and we all know it

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2 - He was benched mid-season when he was playing well. That makes me think he has reached his ceiling.

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I am saying Alex Smith cant make accurate throws deep.

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1 - It is perceived that he doesn't have enough arm strength to run the offense described by Chud and Turner.

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Rivers doesn't have an above-average arm, and he did just great. Why? Because he has great anticipation and accuracy.

If Smith has that anticipation and accuracy, he can run Turner's offense.

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2 - He was benched mid-season when he was playing well. That makes me think he has reached his ceiling. His ceiling in the conservative 49er offense and our offense are two different things. If he can complete 70% of his passes and have a QB rating of 104 in our new offense I would give up our first round pick for him.

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Let's be sure and only speak the truth about Smith's situation. Harbaugh always wanted Kaep as his QB. The concussion that Smith suffered gave Harbaugh the opening he needed. Smith wasn't benched for performance. He wasn't benched at all. That connotation suggests he wasn't getting the job done.

As well as Smith was playing, the wheels and top-5 arm of Kaepernick was why Harbaugh made the switch. It was balsy and risky but it turned out to be the right move. Smith over the last two seasons became a good QB. Kaepernick has turned into an elite one.

Until we have an offensive line like the Niners it's hard to imagine Smith reproducing a 70% comp rate and a 104 rating. However, if he's somewhere between the guy he was in 2011 and the guy he was in 2012, what's that worth? That's a pretty good QB right there. Elite? No. Very good? Yup. A QB who has a low 90's rating puts that player between 8th and 10th in the NFL, and with the way our O-line pass-blocks, it can be argued they are better at pass-blocking than the Niners line.

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Smith will likely take at least a third round pick to get. No matter what defense we run we will have holes to fill. We need our draft picks to fill those holes.

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Giving up picks is a tough pill to swallow for some fans. Yet what's a fair price to maximize the chance of finally fixing the QB problem? A 3rd rounder for Alex Smith feels like a steal.

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Alex Smith's career record is 38-36-1.

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I'm going to again make the point that the teams going after Smith aren't going after the career numbers of Alex Smith. They are going after the Alex Smith who started turning the corner in 2011 and made a big splash last year. They are going after the guy who has hit his prime and maximized his potential, and certainly not at all like the backups in the rest of your list, though Vick's status has yet to be determined.

I would also add that the most idiotic statistic in the history of QB play is how many games that player has won. That stat means next to nothing.

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I would also add that the most idiotic statistic in the history of QB play is how many games that player has won.

means next to nothing.

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I would also add that the most idiotic statistic in the history of QB play is how many games that player has won.

means next to nothing.

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Then what stat says Andrew luck is better than Brandon Weeden?

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I would also add that the most idiotic statistic in the history of QB play is how many games that player has won.

means next to nothing.

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Then what stat says Andrew luck is better than Brandon Weeden?

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I would also add that the most idiotic statistic in the history of QB play is how many games that player has won.

means next to nothing.

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Then what stat says Andrew luck is better than Brandon Weeden?

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Qbr looks good because of "game winning drives" but wins don't count?

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I would also add that the most idiotic statistic in the history of QB play is how many games that player has won. That stat means next to nothing.

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Smith is a small ball QB. IT is that simple. He doesn't have the arm strength he had 5 years ago. HE in NO way fits the Air Coryell offense. Why would we sign a QB that is going to make us throw out 80% of the freaking playbook because he cant make the throw?

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I agree his arm isn't an ideal fit for Turner's offense but neither was Philip Rivers' and he made it work. Here's the way that I look at it: I think we're deciding between a guy without ideal physical tools vs. a guy without ideal mental tools. I can understand the argument for Weeden to some extent because there's always the hope that Weeden can progress and if so, he has the tools whereas Smith's arm is what it is. However, if he doesn't progress much, we're MUCH better off with Smith, arm limitations and all.

And that's the rub. I really don't see where the optimism comes from that Weeden is going to suddenly ascend to greatness in a new system.

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See and that's the devide right there: I'd rather go 3-5 wins with Weeden busting and having a shot at one of the 3-4 franchise QBs available NEXT draft (I know this gets thrown around often, but this time it's legit: Fales, Carr, Boyd, Murray and Renner are already a pretty strong SR class, add to those 1 or 2 of Bridgewater, Cato, B.Smith or T.Kelly) THEN going 7 to even 9 wins with a "meh" Smith with "as good as it gets"....otoh, if Weeden progresses and we win 6-8 games, I'd rather have that than "meh"-Smith, who is what he is

Sure, we can and most probably would win more games with Smith, but at what expense? and with what upside? I don't see any upisde to this scenario? Only hope is that Smith somehow is this stable QB of that mirage 9 games instead of any version of the 70+ start before...saying "hoping for Weeden" is a longshot and then believe in Santa Clause doesn't look like a good argument to me. It's preference and resentment mostly, but I fully believe that with Spectre it's simply your opinion and to a level I agree, but I look BEYOND the 2013 season, which is yet another "rebuilding" one with new schemes and terminologies for ALL players on this roster....what's best for 2014 and beyond? Hoping for Smith to develop all of a sudden into MORE than a game manager? or hoping for Weeden to either develop and show promise and get closer to that gunslinger upside or stay the same and bust to 3-6 wins max to put us in a more preferable position in a strong QB class?

I don't have to think about that one even for 1 second...

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I will be majorly PO'd if we do one of 2 things.

Sign Smith in FA.
Draft a QB at 6.

I refuse to believe that Chud and Turner, having seen Smith's body of work, would have anything to do with a QB like Smith.

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Now to me that would be a monumental waste on several fronts.

First, there aren't any QB's worth taking at 6.

Second, if you're drafting a QB at 6, you aren't bringing him in to "compete" with Weeden. You're bringing him in to replace Weeden.

Third, with the amount of holes on this team, going that route on a QB who isn't nearly worthy of his draft value would be akin to...well...taking a 28-year old rookie QB with the 22nd pick in the draft when that player shouldn't have ever gone that high.

I get your point about finances, but money isn't our problem. Talent is our problem, and burning the 6th pick on a QB in this specific draft would be a massive gamble very-much along the lines of the gamble we made with Weeds.

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At Oklahoma State, Weeden threw out of the shotgun on nearly every pass. Profootballfocus.com said 43 percent of Weeden's passes in 2012 came from the shotgun, where he received a snap about five yards behind the center. On the surface, it's hard to know what that 43 percent indicates.

But here's the deal:

1. NFL QBs threw out of shotgun an average of 66 percent of the time.

2. Of the 39 QBs examined by Profootballfocus, only Houston's Matt Schaub (34 percent) threw a lower percentage of his passes from the shotgun than Weeden.

3. Weeden was more effective from the shotgun, with a QB rating of 79.1 with eight touchdown passes and seven interceptions. Under center, it was 67.7 with six TDs and 10 picks.

4. Weeden threw 73 more passes from under center than the shotgun, which is why these stats are meaningful. He simply is not a West Coast style quarterback.

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CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Is Brandon Weeden the right quarterback for the Browns in 2013? The new front office and coaching staff are trying to figure that out now.

They certainly will bring in another quarterback, as I hear they don't consider Colt McCoy a viable starting option. But their evaluation of Weeden is complicated by one simple fact --he was playing in the wrong system.

The West Coast offense stresses a quarterback taking a snap directly under center, and then taking three steps back followed by a throw. Or it's five steps and a longer throw.Either way, it's a quick-rhythm system.

It's also a system new to Weeden in his rookie season, a system that's out of favor in the current NFL, or at least the version used in Cleveland.

At Oklahoma State, Weeden threw out of the shotgun on nearly every pass. Profootballfocus.com said 43 percent of Weeden's passes in 2012 came from the shotgun, where he received a snap about five yards behind the center. On the surface, it's hard to know what that 43 percent indicates.

But here's the deal:

1. NFL QBs threw out of shotgun an average of 66 percent of the time.

2. Of the 39 QBs examined by Profootballfocus, only Houston's Matt Schaub (34 percent) threw a lower percentage of his passes from the shotgun than Weeden.

3. Weeden was more effective from the shotgun, with a QB rating of 79.1 with eight touchdown passes and seven interceptions. Under center, it was 67.7 with six TDs and 10 picks.

4. Weeden threw 73 more passes from under center than the shotgun, which is why these stats are meaningful. He simply is not a West Coast style quarterback.

The Browns have all this data and more. The new staff -- head coach Rob Chudzinski and offensive coordinator Norv Turner -- are far more open to the shotgun formation. Consider the following:

1. In Carolina, Chudzinski had Cam Newton in the shotgun for 79 percent of his passes, fourth-highest in the NFL.

2. In San Diego, Turner had Philip Rivers in the shotgun 77 percent of the time, eighth in the NFL.

What does all this mean? Weeden's strength is standing in the pocket and throwing deep. But the West Coast offense stresses snaps under center and quick throws. It's also very possible that Weeden's league-leading 25 passes batted down is partly due to being so often under center, where he's closer to the defensive linemen as he throws.

Can the Browns assume Weeden will improve in an offense that tends to stress throwing downfield? Yes, they can. Especially since most quarterbacks simply play better after their rookie seasons, regardless of the system.

Is that enough for the Browns to commit long range to Weeden? That's something being discussed right now. They also are asking, "If not Weeden, then who?" Do they make a big deal for Alex Smith? Would he be that much of an upgrade over Weeden? Those questions haven't been answered yet.

I generally stay away from knocking a previous coaching staff, but the data does show that the offense used by the Browns last season was not best suited to their rookie quarterback.

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I would go pass rusher first but I think Haslam wants a new QB and I definitely think Lombardi wants a new QB. I dont think either will wait until the 3rd to grab one. Tyler Wilson, Matt Barkley are just as likely as Moore or Mingo.

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Some stats that make you go :

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At Oklahoma State, Weeden threw out of the shotgun on nearly every pass. Profootballfocus.com said 43 percent of Weeden's passes in 2012 came from the shotgun, where he received a snap about five yards behind the center. On the surface, it's hard to know what that 43 percent indicates.

But here's the deal:

1. NFL QBs threw out of shotgun an average of 66 percent of the time.

2. Of the 39 QBs examined by Profootballfocus, only Houston's Matt Schaub (34 percent) threw a lower percentage of his passes from the shotgun than Weeden.

3. Weeden was more effective from the shotgun, with a QB rating of 79.1 with eight touchdown passes and seven interceptions. Under center, it was 67.7 with six TDs and 10 picks.

4. Weeden threw 73 more passes from under center than the shotgun, which is why these stats are meaningful. He simply is not a West Coast style quarterback.

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Here is the whole article:

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CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Is Brandon Weeden the right quarterback for the Browns in 2013? The new front office and coaching staff are trying to figure that out now.

They certainly will bring in another quarterback, as I hear they don't consider Colt McCoy a viable starting option. But their evaluation of Weeden is complicated by one simple fact --he was playing in the wrong system.

The West Coast offense stresses a quarterback taking a snap directly under center, and then taking three steps back followed by a throw. Or it's five steps and a longer throw.Either way, it's a quick-rhythm system.

It's also a system new to Weeden in his rookie season, a system that's out of favor in the current NFL, or at least the version used in Cleveland.

At Oklahoma State, Weeden threw out of the shotgun on nearly every pass. Profootballfocus.com said 43 percent of Weeden's passes in 2012 came from the shotgun, where he received a snap about five yards behind the center. On the surface, it's hard to know what that 43 percent indicates.

But here's the deal:

1. NFL QBs threw out of shotgun an average of 66 percent of the time.

2. Of the 39 QBs examined by Profootballfocus, only Houston's Matt Schaub (34 percent) threw a lower percentage of his passes from the shotgun than Weeden.

3. Weeden was more effective from the shotgun, with a QB rating of 79.1 with eight touchdown passes and seven interceptions. Under center, it was 67.7 with six TDs and 10 picks.

4. Weeden threw 73 more passes from under center than the shotgun, which is why these stats are meaningful. He simply is not a West Coast style quarterback.

The Browns have all this data and more. The new staff -- head coach Rob Chudzinski and offensive coordinator Norv Turner -- are far more open to the shotgun formation. Consider the following:

1. In Carolina, Chudzinski had Cam Newton in the shotgun for 79 percent of his passes, fourth-highest in the NFL.

2. In San Diego, Turner had Philip Rivers in the shotgun 77 percent of the time, eighth in the NFL.

What does all this mean? Weeden's strength is standing in the pocket and throwing deep. But the West Coast offense stresses snaps under center and quick throws. It's also very possible that Weeden's league-leading 25 passes batted down is partly due to being so often under center, where he's closer to the defensive linemen as he throws.

Can the Browns assume Weeden will improve in an offense that tends to stress throwing downfield? Yes, they can. Especially since most quarterbacks simply play better after their rookie seasons, regardless of the system.

Is that enough for the Browns to commit long range to Weeden? That's something being discussed right now. They also are asking, "If not Weeden, then who?" Do they make a big deal for Alex Smith? Would he be that much of an upgrade over Weeden? Those questions haven't been answered yet.

I generally stay away from knocking a previous coaching staff, but the data does show that the offense used by the Browns last season was not best suited to their rookie quarterback.

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to shove into Shurmur's round hole

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Before anyone else does:

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What I don't get is why this was so obvious to a bunch of us Joe Schmoes last year before the draft, yet the braintrust decided to draft his square peg to shove into Shurmur's round hole in the first round?

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I hate to re-use the word "obvious" but it's gotta start dawning on people.

When we made the pick I blasted Holmgren for doing it because it was a move born of pure desperation. He reached for the last supposed top-tiered QB because he didn't have one and was afraid of losing him in the 2nd. Heckert didn't want any part of it but Bankers Hours forced him to do it.

You remember the company line...Holmgren said the stuff Weeds ran in college were similar to the WCO, to which I threw the BS flag on. Well, one year later we all see that Weeds wasn't ready for what the NFL threw at him. We reached on a 28-year old developmental QB in the 1st round because we were desperate. Ugh.

What's really gonna honk off people is that Lombardi's words were proven accurate.

The regime was desperate and made a desperate move. They tried to take a big, slow-footed backyard spread-offense QB with questionable accuracy and make him into a precision passer. Now here we are having essentially wasted a 1st round pick on a guy that is so lowly thought of that only after one season we're going to bring someone in to compete with him.

The further we get away from Holmgren, the less we're going to like him. Don't think the rest of the league didn't take notice as well. He couldn't wait to get his last paycheck and ride his fat-boy back to Arizona. He then made it quite clear he'd be willing to come back to coaching. Yeah, nobody was going to fall for his antics again, which is why he's out of work.

The best thing we can hope for is that Weeds has the magical switch come on and he gets his rating into the upper 80's at least, because if he doesn't he won't get a 3rd year as a 31-year old guy. It was a great thing that he got the experience he did, but it did expose all of his flaws. He's going to have to fight just to get a 2nd year, and he'll have to really come on if he's not going to be considered a waste.

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When we made the pick I blasted Holmgren for doing it because it was a move born of pure desperation. He reached for the last supposed top-tiered QB because he didn't have one and was afraid of losing him in the 2nd. Heckert didn't want any part of it but Bankers Hours forced him to do it.

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When we made the pick I blasted Holmgren for doing it because it was a move born of pure desperation. He reached for the last supposed top-tiered QB because he didn't have one and was afraid of losing him in the 2nd. Heckert didn't want any part of it but Bankers Hours forced him to do it.

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Heckert at Weeden's pro day ran past everyone to get the first one on one time with Weeden. Hell, he was drooling so much over Weeden that I thought he might french him at any moment. Tom Heckert wanted Weeden and he got him.

Heckert wanted Colt and can be blamed for that one but Weeden was on Heckert.

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PitDawg mentioned that Alex Smith was a winner. I pointed out that there were many other QBs who will cost virtually nothing that are available and have won also.

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If Alex Smith was a free agent I would think he would be in the conversation. But he is not a free agent.

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What I in turn proved, is that he turned the corner in his career and has been a very consistant winner over the past two seasons.

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You can point to his yardage totals all day if you like, point is, he did what was asked of him. Had he of been asked to do more, pass more, you have no way of knowing how he would have responded. So you wish to blame Alex Smith because the coach didn't ask him to do more?

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Did it ever occur to you that the coach didn't ask him to do more because he couldn't do it?

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Let's be clear about what I'm saying. I'm saying Heckert didn't want any part of Weeden in the first round. Holmgren forced that on him. Ergo the reference that Holmgren was afraid of losing him in the 2nd.

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What is going on here is a game of make believe...pretending we have the knowledge to second guess the professionals.

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So says the 10-time reigning King of Conspiracy Theories.

You've got a ton of nerve giving that speech after all the stuff you've "speculated" on over the years.

There is so much hypocritical BS in that post it would be embarrassing to pick it apart. I think I'll just leave it at this one sentence:

Holmgren himself said Heckert didn't want Weeden at 22 but the Walrus insisted. Go look it up.

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Yet I don't see anyone touting Smith as being elite.

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