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“I said Tom, do you want to do this? He said I don’t think I do. I think it’s too much or too strong or whatever. “Then I said, well, we may have to. Then he goes, ‘Well, if we have to, then you have to tell me because I won’t do it.’ “I said, OK, then I might have to tell you.”
This was in regards to trading up for Richardson.
I'm having a hard time finding anything which notes that conversation was about Richardson. The closest thing I can find says it's "possible."
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Also a big difference between "Pretty Much" which is what we think vs what they "Actually" tried to do.
Read the stuff that clevesteve posted.
We know:
"I said, 'Tom, do you want to do this?' " Holmgren said after the draft. "He said, 'I don't think I do. I think it's too much or too strong or whatever.' "I said, 'OK, then I might have to tell you.' "
- Whether it was for Richardson or Weeden, Holmgren is flat out saying he pulled rank and made Heckert reach.
Heckert: "Brandon was by far the best player for us after a couple guys got picked."
- Right there, Heckert is telling you Weeden wasn't the guy who they initially wanted at #22. There were a couple guys they wanted at that spot who came off before the pick. Plain as day.
Tom Heckert - (On taking Weeden if Wright was still there)- "We didn’t have to make that decision."
- If the answer was "We liked Weeden more," why not just say it and pump your player up? There's literally no reason not to... unless you wanted Wright.
Heckert (on not running supplemental scenarios and just throwing out a high bid for Gordon): "I don't really know who was involved in the whole thing. We didn't worry about it. We were going to take him second round and whatever happened, happened."
- Not sure how much more obvious you can get. They had a 2nd round grade on him but rather than study picking order/team interest like they would in a normal draft and get better value, they said screw it.
Those quotes are them telling us what happened. They wanted Richardson at #4 and got him. They DIDN'T want Weeden at #22 but a couple guys came off the board and at that point, he was their guy. If they wanted someone else at #22 (which Heckert actually said they did), that means they initially planned to use another pick on Weeden. It's safe to assume their 2nd. If they were using their 2nd rounder to get Weeden, it's safe to assume they weren't planning to take Schwartz with their 2nd. That puts him in 3rd round target territory. Connect the dots.
In short, because of what happened at #22, everything we wanted to do got moved up a round. Not sure how that's "hindsight" given that they did everything they can to tell you without telling you and in some cases are telling you anyway.
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Legend
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Legend
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My point was that you were saying we might have gotten Weeden in the Second., you can't know that. What we did get was Richardson who played pretty well for a guy with rib issues almost all season. In the second round we got our RT for the next 10 years (or so it seems) using the second pick in the 2013 draft to get Josh Gordon looks like the steal of the century.
So I don't care who said what to whom,, what they ended up doing wasn't horrid. and you saying people would be there later doesn't make it so.
Perhaps weeden will, under the teachings of Turner, turn out to be fine. he's got the arm that's for sure, but were the problems his, or shurmurs or the system?
I'm no expert but from what I've read on the subject, to run Turners offense, you need a guy that fits Weedens strong points. He may or may not be the answer,,
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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All Pro
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I understand taking Weeden 15 picks early more because you never know what is going to happen with a QB on draft day.
I would think that at that position in the draft, not many teams are looking to draft a QB in the first round. and the teams ahead of us in the 2nd had already plucked their's in the first.
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I understand taking Weeden 15 picks early more because you never know what is going to happen with a QB on draft day.
I would think that at that position in the draft, not many teams are looking to draft a QB in the first round. and the teams ahead of us in the 2nd had already plucked their's in the first.
Agreed. While hindsight is 20/20, I had very high hopes for Russell Wilson, so I figured we'd either get Weeden in the 2nd or Wilson in the 3rd. I think Weeden at 22 was a panic move and an unnecessary one at that.
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Quote:
“I said Tom, do you want to do this? He said I don’t think I do. I think it’s too much or too strong or whatever. “Then I said, well, we may have to. Then he goes, ‘Well, if we have to, then you have to tell me because I won’t do it.’ “I said, OK, then I might have to tell you.”
This was in regards to trading up for Richardson.
I'm having a hard time finding anything which notes that conversation was about Richardson. The closest thing I can find says it's "possible."
Not sure how Schwartz or Richardson are going to be the QB. 
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j/c...
Weeden will be the starting QB.
There's simply not a better option out there.
Even if you consider Smith as a better option, he's not a realistic one. He's probaby going to end up in KC.
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Dawg Talker
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Weeden will be the starting QB.
Bingo. 9 page thread resolved.
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss...
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My point was that you were saying we might have gotten Weeden in the Second., you can't know that. What we did get was Richardson who played pretty well for a guy with rib issues almost all season. In the second round we got our RT for the next 10 years (or so it seems) using the second pick in the 2013 draft to get Josh Gordon looks like the steal of the century.
I don't know that but I know that was the assumption Heckert/Holmgren went in with ahead of time. Otherwise, they would've targeted Weeden at #22 instead of Wright. I don't mind reaching a bit for a guy so long as we truly believe that there's value there... it's why I was thrilled with the Gordon pick even though I wouldn't offered up more than a 3rdt. What I DO have a problem with is targeting a guy in a specific area then panicking and reaching for him.
Heckert said there was no way in hell he was trading up per the quotes posted in this thread... then he went and dumped 3 picks for free. He was targeting Weeden in the 2nd and Schwartz in the 3rd, yet one thing went wrong and they pushed them up the board instead of readjusting. Now... if taking them early was his plan beforehand then fine. If, however, based on all the work and prep we did we thought we could get them a round later and were targeting them there, DON'T force them up the board. Move down a bit, add some assets and still get your guys.
It was pure panic. We missed "our guy" in RGIII so we were afraid to lose Richardson. Weeden was the last QB we could see starting as a rookie so we were afraid and forced the pick after we lost Wright. I think a lot of that can be traced back to having Holmgren calling shots and forcing Heckert's hand. He already has admitted to forcing 2 picks when Heckert thought we were wasting assets and who knows what else he did. Hopefully the new regime will at least be on the same page.
We're... we're good?
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Legend
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Perhaps weeden will, under the teachings of Turner, turn out to be fine. he's got the arm that's for sure, but were the problems his, or shurmurs or the system?
What problems? Weeden had the serious misfortune of being a QB in the best QB draft in a long long time.... especially for rookie production. Dalton and Cam Newton had decent years last year, obviously Cam didn't win many games.. but before that, you have to go back to Matt Ryan to find a rookie QB that had numbers as good as Weeden had this year.. in fact Matt Ryans numbers are pretty similar... though they won 11 games...
For me right now, the only "problem" Weeden has is that he doesn't have the time that Flacco and Ryan had to really come into their own..
yebat' Putin
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j/c...
Weeden will be the starting QB.
There's simply not a better option out there.
Even if you consider Smith as a better option, he's not a realistic one. He's probaby going to end up in KC.
Why? Because KC is a better option than Cleveland?
And why would KC give up more than any other team to acquire Alex Smith? They have the #1 or #2 pick in every round. They could have their pick any player in the draft that they want or nearly any player left at the beginning of each round.
Why wouldn't they take the OL they want and then take a QB to put behind them? Or they could trade that pick for a plethora of picks to get a Rams type of deal or even better. I don't think there is a QB that a team will want to move up to get, but there are other positions that someone might want to move up to get and be willing to trade up to get.
So, why would KC, that seems to be so far away, give up valuable picks to get Alex Smith?
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Quote:
Perhaps weeden will, under the teachings of Turner, turn out to be fine. he's got the arm that's for sure, but were the problems his, or shurmurs or the system?
What problems? Weeden had the serious misfortune of being a QB in the best QB draft in a long long time.... especially for rookie production. Dalton and Cam Newton had decent years last year, obviously Cam didn't win many games.. but before that, you have to go back to Matt Ryan to find a rookie QB that had numbers as good as Weeden had this year.. in fact Matt Ryans numbers are pretty similar... though they won 11 games...
For me right now, the only "problem" Weeden has is that he doesn't have the time that Flacco and Ryan had to really come into their own..
Weeden's problems are that he's old and makes poor decisions and poor throws. To compound it, he can't really make plays with his legs either unless there are lanes more open than on a North Korean freeway.
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