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Now here's a twist in the armor. This could seriously affect the draft and free agency. Pluto's Talkin'. About the Browns' defense... 1. I've spent much of the week sorting through the change from the 4-3 to the 3-4, and what it will mean in terms of a changing roster. On the line, the Browns believe Phil Taylor can play over center. He did that at Baylor in a 3-4. Ahytba Rubin played a lot on the line in Eric Mangini's 3-4 in 2009-10. So he can do the same here. 2. The new coaching staff loves Billy Wynn as much as the old staff, and believes he can easily be a 3-4 end. They also believe 320-pound John Hughes can add depth at tackle or end. 3. So the Browns believe they have several line candidates with Taylor, Rubin, Wynn and Hughes. The Browns believe all but Taylor can play some defensive end. They indicate Frostee Rucker is possibility at end, but I wonder about that. 4. The Browns signed Rucker to a 5-year, $20 million deal before the 2012 season. On that contract, $8 million was guaranteed and he has been paid $5.5 million between his signing bonus and first-year salary. The last three years covering about $12 million aren't guaranteed. Rucker was a 4-3 end in Cincinnati and with the Browns. So it wouldn't cost them a lot to cut him if necessary. 5. Juqua Parker had a nice season as a backup defensive end, with 6.0 sacks while playing 46 percent of the snaps. But the 250-pounder is a classic 4-3 defensive end. He also is a free agent, so it's doubtful he'll return. 6. In the traditional 3-4, the nose tackle is directly over the center and the two ends are lined up against the offensive tackles. In that setup, the guards are free to block the two inside linebackers. That's why D'Qwell Jackson struggled in the 3-4, compared to being in the middle in the 4-3 and could use his speed because he wasn't hit on his first step. 7. Horton's 3-4 often has a nose tackle lined up on the shoulder of a center, either right or left. The hope will be that Jackson can "hide" a bit behind a massive player such as the 335-pound Taylor, then make plays. I still wonder if Jackson will be as effective. 8. Guess what defensive lineman played the most snaps last season? It was defensive end Jabaal Sheard (85 percent). At 255 pounds, he's not big enough to play defensive end in a 3-4. The Browns may turn him into a "attack the quarterback" end/outside linebacker. Mangini developed that role for Marcus Benard in 2010, when he led the team with 7.5 sacks, playing only 40 percent of the snaps. 9. No matter what defense they play, the Browns need help at linebacker. Jackson is back, along with James-Michael Johnson, Craig Robertson and L.J. Fort. Chris Gocong is under contract, but coming off Achilles surgery. He played in Mangini's 3-4. Kaluka Maiava and Scott Fujita are free agents. Robertson is athletic enough to play in any defense, often used in coverage in passing situations. After Jackson (96 percent), Robertson (52 percent) played the most snaps of any linebacker. The Browns also believe Johnson can be effective on the inside. 10. Looking the defense in 2010 -- the last year of the 3-4 -- the only player left under contract for 2013 are Jackson (injured all of 2010), Gocong, Rubin, T.J. Ward and Joe Haden. http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/blog/index.ssf/2013/02/terry_plutos_talkin_about_the_69.html
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I agree with Pluto's discussion here. Especially the LB needs. We need a pair of patrolling wrecking ball types. Hope we will be even more intense than we have been. Any idea which linebackers are hottest in draft versus free agency? Hope we pony up for a premier if needed.  
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I wonder if Acho fits in at all.. I mean, we didn't get to see him at all last year so how do we know.
But here again, listen to what Horton said about allignments. He will react to whatever the offense does. So I don't see a traditional defensive front ever really showing up.. I mean, if you believe what Horton and Chud say.
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There are a lot of DE/OLBs in this draft, so we can get an impact guy with No. 6 overall. Here's my issue: If Pluto's right about Taylor only playing over center, we're taking two of our best defensive players, Taylor and Rubin, and giving them one starting job to share. In another thread, some guys were saying Taylor could play end. That did not seem right to me, and Pluto doesn't think so, either.
So we move Sheard out of position, we waste our depth on the DL and we can only have Taylor OR Rubin on the field at one time. And we suddenly have a desperate need for linebackers. All because Horton can't adapt his scheme to the talent on the team.
Last edited by The Big G; 02/03/13 11:03 AM.
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I wonder if Tank Carder is considered as a possible contributor in a 3-4 ... scouting reports I read said his best position would be ILB in a 3-4. He's currently listed as 2nd string at 'SLB' on the depth chart, behind LJ Fort.
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Quote:
There are a lot of DE/OLBs in this draft, so we can get an impact guy with No. 6 overall. Here's my issue: If Pluto's right about Taylor only playing over center, we're taking two of our best defensive players, Taylor and Rubin, and giving them one starting job to share. In another thread, some guys were saying Taylor could play end. That did not seem right to me, and Pluto doesn't think so, either.
So we move Sheard out of position, we waste our depth on the DL and we can only have Taylor OR Rubin on the field at one time. And we suddenly have a desperate need for linebackers. All because Horton can't adapt his scheme to the talent on the team.
Oh contraire.
Let's just say Horton thinks Taylor would be even better than Rubin at Nose. These multiple fronts will have all 4 of these guys in there frequently. You're fixated on a 3-4 look only.
My immediate thought was a need for a DE. Could this possibly bring Lotulelei into play at 6 if there? Me thinks YES it would.
The other interesting thought here is Sheard going to the SOLB spot as the Rush OLB. To me that opens a need for the WOLB. Jackson is solid in coverage, so here's a scenario.
What if we shifted our free agency focus to an Ellerbe or Grant and one of them goes INSIDE with Johnson? That's a totally different look, even from what I was thinking.
Jackson
Ellerbe/Grant
Johnson
Sheard
That could turn into a strength. And this an even bigger strength.
Lotulelei
Taylor
Winn/Hughes
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Quote:
I wonder if Acho fits in at all.. I mean, we didn't get to see him at all last year so how do we know.
But here again, listen to what Horton said about allignments. He will react to whatever the offense does. So I don't see a traditional defensive front ever really showing up.. I mean, if you believe what Horton and Chud say.
I seem to recall Acho struggling last year in training camp. Reading some scouting reports, one of his weaknesses is shedding blocks to make a play, and being a decent, but not a really good blitzer. Those are 2 things he would have to improve upon in training camp if he is to be a player at OLB.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I expect the Texans to re-sign Barwin but he's one I like at OLB that has done well in the 3-4...
I fully expect us to draft a LBer somewhere in the first three rounds... really i could see us doing defense with our first and third round pick...
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So Rubin, one of our best players, is a benchwarmer?
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Jackson would not work outside in a 3-4 because both OLB's need to be able to rush the passer. He would have to be either the Strong inside LB (SILB) or the Weak inside LB (WILB). Ideally Jackson would be the WILB in a 3-4. Here's a pretty good site that explains the 3-4 defenses plus others. LINK
Last edited by dawg66; 02/03/13 01:59 PM.
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Quote:
There are a lot of DE/OLBs in this draft, so we can get an impact guy with No. 6 overall. Here's my issue: If Pluto's right about Taylor only playing over center, we're taking two of our best defensive players, Taylor and Rubin, and giving them one starting job to share. In another thread, some guys were saying Taylor could play end. That did not seem right to me, and Pluto doesn't think so, either.
So we move Sheard out of position, we waste our depth on the DL and we can only have Taylor OR Rubin on the field at one time. And we suddenly have a desperate need for linebackers. All because Horton can't adapt his scheme to the talent on the team.
Again, at this point, taking Horton at face value, I think is the smarter and safer option rather than over thinking it.
He (horton) made mention of Big men that can run, and little men that can hit.
We have lots of big men that can run, Hughes, Taylor, Sheard, Rubin, Wynn.. These are all big men that are pretty fast.
He says our base D will be a 3-4 but the offense they are playing each week will dictate what formation they play.
now maybe it's just because I have a little brain or something, but doesn't that seem like an intelligent approach. I mean, if you adjust your D to match up with your opponents O each week, how the hell does anyone get a read on what you'll do next.
the man had one of the best D's in the country last season. I can't help feeling as if we need to give him the benefit of the doubt.
One thing I am concerned over. Let's say that all the concerns expressed here turn out to be founded and Horton can't use a couple of guys we have, is Lombardi smart enough to unload what we don't need and get us what we do...
I think no matter how you slice the pie, it all comes back to Lombardi and Banner... Can that locate the guys we need, can they get us good return on the guys we may need to trade?
That's the only hole I see in the plan
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Damanshot
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Big Phil and Rubin can play either DE or DT and they may switch back and forth. I see no issue with the DL at all and Rucker can play DE in the 3-4. I dont know if we will retain him as we can probably get similar value from a cheaper player.
I also feel our linebackers will fit in Horton's scheme. If they can blitz effectively they will play and if they can't they will be replaced. They can all cover decently so that wont be a problem. Now after saying all that, I would not be the least bit surprised if we traded DQ. Type of move I expect from Banner.
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Horton uses a lot of movement to create confusion for opposing lines both presnap and after snap. These guys are running up showing blitz and dropping into zone coverage, they are running up backing off and then coming on delayed blitzes and they are showing blitz and blitzing. I think this is one of the reason why he uses some smaller backers.
He really keeps offenses guessing as to where the rush is coming but most of the time, it is coming from multiple positions lol. Now we will have to find out who can rush the passer and who can't.
I believe we will see our starting DL of Big Phil Rubin and Wynn. Our starting LB corps will be Sheard, Robertson, DQ and wide open competition. It could be JMJ, maiva, Gocong, street free agent or rookie draft pick.
Now you also have TJ Ward who will be pretty much a 5th linebacker in this defense.
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- as expected the "the switch will be easy" folks have to backtrack again. If Taylor/Rubin can't play 80% of the snaps together, it's already a waste and opens up a huge need - Winn IS NOT a 3 down player in ANY scheme, that's the main reason why he dropped so far in the draft. He has value as a rotational guy, but if you count on him to be a 3 down player, you're looking at well below AVG production out of him. We should sign DeVito at DE for our base 34 look and roatate him with Winn. Problem is: with more and more tems switching to that scheme, he will get overpaid and we won't go there and that's ok with me...but the problem remains that we need a different base guy at DE - speaking of: many project Rucker there as if it's a given. Dude's been a 4-3 SDE his entire career and just played some RDE last season because Sheard isn't comfortable there...and for a rotational 3-4 DE with transition question marks I don't see him sticking. Good news is that we should be able to get a 3rd day pick for him as his contrct will look good in this market and he has produced consistently, so some team will take the instant "solid" production over a 5th to 7th round hopeful - speaking of Sheard: he was even uncomfy switching the DE spots in the 4-3, anyone who thinks he's a shoe in to play 3-4 OLB just like that...think again...and if he ends up playing not even 50% of the snaps like Pluto suggests (probably because he sees him as a liability vs the run) than we have cut his value in half as he played over 80% last season - you might be on to something Mourg. You can bet your left nut that Banner will cut/trade whoever was criticizing this "switch" and my money is on Dqwell being the guy since had to endure so many BS regimes and finally was able to play in a system best suited for him...it would not surprise me to see him let go for some mid rounder Horton might be the real deal, this system switch might be the right move mid term, but short term it unnecessarily created more holes and needs. We're rebuilding again...for anyone who didn't get the memo yet 
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Quote:
- as expected the "the switch will be easy" folks have to backtrack again.
Pluto agrees with the "switch will be easy" crowd. I'm rather certain Pluto's word will sway people towards the belief that a switch isn't a teardown, as you have claimed.
Typically, when a knowledgable guy like Pluto supports a move, that bolsters a position. 
Take particular note of the belief that Winn can play DE. It doesn't take a special talent to play DE in the 3-4.
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and for a rotational 3-4 DE with transition question marks I don't see him sticking.
In spite of Rucker being our "big" acquisition last year, he was outplayed by lesser players and lost playing time because of it. He was turning into a rotational guy anyway, so keeping him as a rotational 3-4 DE is realistic. However, losing him isn't losing an important piece. He simply wasn't anything special for the Browns last year, and won't be anything special for anyone else no matter the defense. Simply put, he's more likely part of a problem than part of a solution.
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We're rebuilding again...for anyone who didn't get the memo yet
Pluto disagrees, and therefore weakens your position on this.
I think that as people continue to stop knee-jerking a switch and start evaluating the personnel, they are realizing a switch isn't some big rebuild. It's certainly not a teardown, and don't think it hasn't been noted that you've quietly stopped using that term.
Sheard has rush ability but isn't much against the run. Make him a rush OLB and he's nearly the same guy. Like many OLB's in the 3-4, he'll be good or bad based on whether or not he can get to the QB. Nobody rants and raves about the pass-coverage of guys like Anthony Spencer, Connor Barwin, and James Harrison. 
There's a perception that we were some up-and-coming defense based solely on beating some crappy teams. The truth was exposed down the stretch.
The only REAL downgrade is going to be Jackson, and even then that isn't like losing the value of a pro-bowler. He's a solid player, and stands a chance of still being solid if our front-3 can do their jobs. If they can't, no ILB in the 3-4 will be give production.
I'm glad a smart guy like Pluto gets it. That will help the fans who fear change to see the reality of the situation.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Like you, Pluto may put a positive spin on the move, but if you go on and read what he actually said it makes that move look stupid...even if he agrees that it's possible. Well, I can agree too that it is "possible", but Pluto himself is acknowledging that it is a WASTE of talent doing so, by what he ACTUALLY writes How else do you interpret the things he says about Taylor/Rubin at NT and Sheard and his snaps projection? I obviously disagree on Winn, and we will probably find out the hard way. I like Winn and he was a great value pick, but he's simply NOT made for 3 downs. If we stick him at 3-4 DE for over 70% of snaps our run D will go from AVG to well below that, I guarantee you that....Horton can blitz all day, teams will run it over Winn all day and will not care. You gotta stay balanced and Winn isn't a 3down DE as he lacks the discipline and consistency for that. As with all LOS players, consistency is king and Winn just isn't... As for Rucker: which part of "he was signed to BE a rotational guy" didn't you get? Rucker and Parker played close to 100% of the snaps at RDE last season in case you missed it. So since we signed Parker to spell him I can't wait to know to which player he "lost" snaps last season as that CLEARLY was the intention from the get go. Do I really have to pull out you laughable "triumvirate" thread and shove it up to you again? You a masochist or something? You can try to talk down Rucker all you want, reality is that MULTIPLE teams including the Pats were in on him last offseason, which was why he was signed and off the market pretty quickly. An average player isn't very sexy, but when you have a need at a high value position like DE, "average" is a pretty good upgrade and there aren't many good run stopping DEs out there, so a guy like Rucker is a pretty valuable piece to sign and plug in to rotate with one of the multiple young pass.rush only guys at DE...it makes all the sense in the world and it did for us too last season as we got Top10-like production from that spot with 74 Ts, 10 sacks and 3 FFs...Mario Williams had 46Ts, 10.5 sacks and 2 FFs btw. It's like a good platoon of 2 split hitters in baseball...and it takes having a clue about value Sorry Toad, but you were begging for it
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Well, I can agree too that it is "possible", but Pluto himself is acknowledging that it is a WASTE of talent doing so, by what he ACTUALLY writes
Uhhh...what he ACTUALLY WRITES is that the move to a 3-4 isn't just "possible." He agrees with the moves.
Show us all where he thinks it's dumb or a waste of talent. If you can do that, we can discuss it, but I've read it over and over and all I see is optimism, not pessimism.
You can try and spin that any way you want, but nobody is going to buy that it's a negative article. Try, though. That should be entertaining. 
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So since we signed Parker to spell him I can't wait to know to which player he "lost" snaps last season as that CLEARLY was the intention from the get go.
As the season wore on, and Stephens, who was part of that rotation was lost, the guy who gained all the snaps was not Rucker, it was Parker. Parker was signed to be a rush-specialist, but as we all say as the season went on, he took more snaps away from Rucker. We all saw it. You did as well.
When a 35-year old rush-specialist takes snaps away from the "starter" you know there's a problem.
And for the record, it makes no difference who was "all over" Rucker last year. What matters is what he did or didn't do on the field. He lost playing time to the one-dimensional Parker, and that's all people need to know.
So if he was losing playing time in the 4-3 and becomes another part-timer in the 3-4, what are we losing, exactly? Nothing. His game is SUPPOSED to be that of a run-stuffer, at which he was decidedly mediocre last year. He didn't make our defense better, unless you consider upgrading from the worst starting DE in the history of the NFL in Jayme Mitchell to be a win.
Wanna know how good that "triumvirate" was for us? Only one of them will even stand a chance of being part of the team this year.
We ranked 19th against the rush.
We ranked 25th against the pass.
We ranked 23rd overall.
It's a stretch calling that "triumvirate" a success.
But let's not allow that old argument to veer away from the fact that an expert like Pluto is causing fans to turn the cold-shoulder to your "teardown" theory. You're island of Chicken Little's is losing population.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Politicians are puppets, y'all. Let's get Geppetto!
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You can try and spin that any way you want, but nobody is going to buy that it's a negative article. Try, though. That should be entertaining.
I could care less about Pluto's opinion, he reports Browns stuff, that's what I care about...and "expert"? lol
Anyway, I look at WHAT he writes. Strange that you haven't with a word tackled the Taylor/Rubin issue nad Sheard possibly getting much less snaps...
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We ranked 19th against the rush.
We ranked 25th against the pass.
We ranked 23rd overall.
It's a stretch calling that "triumvirate" a success.
Really? I mean...really, REALLY? This is really one of the dumbest arguments I have ever read. It's like posting total stats from our Offense and saying Joe Thomas wasn't all that good...yeah, it's THAT stupid of an argument. The normal thing to do is to compare apples with apples and ornages with oranges, so how about you compare our RDE prosduction with other team's RDE production...crazy thought I know. Agenda Frog at his worst...this def qualifies as one of the worst arguments ever made on this board
and btw, just give it up: Rucker and Parker were ONE player. It was clear as day the moment they signed that they'd rotate. Nobody "lost" snaps to anyone and Rucker was the "starter" because 1st down is more of a running down. Parker got 3mil, Rucker 3.5...it always was a stop gap platoon with a run stuffer and pass rusher
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Wanna know how good that "triumvirate" was for us? Only one of them will even stand a chance of being part of the team this year.
Shocking, Parker was a 1 year rental and Stephens a fringe 4th DE...and now they would have to move to a 3-4 which at least 2 of those 3 absolutely won't fit in. You know what that proves? Nothing
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I could care less about Pluto's opinion, he reports Browns stuff, that's what I care about...and "expert"? lol
Anyway, I look at WHAT he writes. Strange that you haven't with a word tackled the Taylor/Rubin issue nad Sheard possibly getting much less snaps...
Yeah. That stuff he writes...it's called his opinion. 
I've said plenty on Rubin, Taylor, and Sheard. It's all there. Go read it.
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Nobody "lost" snaps to anyone and Rucker was the "starter" because 1st down is more of a running down.
Stephens goes down. So you'd expect Rucker, the starter, to have many more snaps than Parker, the 3rd down specialist.
So what are the facts? Here's the total number of snaps:
Rucker: 631
Parker: 539
Anyone who has the games taped will be surprised to see that Parker was taking snaps away from Rucker. Read my sig for the proof. In fact, Winn took 43 snaps at DE later in the year. The guy who gave up those snaps were...you guessed it...Frostee Rucker.
And while I don't care for him, Grossi acknowledged that Parker out-played the much more expensive Rucker. That's just sad, and shows that Rucker wasn't everything people thought he'd be.
In 2011 Rucker started 11 games and totaled 4 sacks and 44 tackles
In 2012 Rucker started 16 games and totaled 4 sacks and 48 tackles
I'd love to know where that ranks Rucker in the NFL for starting DE's. His forte was supposed to be an excellent run-stopper, but his contributions to that were marginal. The fact he lost snaps to Parker and even Winn later in the year speaks volumes, and being called out by Grossi doesn't help either.
Nevermind. I looked. His 4 sacks tied him for 84th. 
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Stephens a fringe 4th DE
Part of the Triumvirate. Also not part of the solution.
We're not losing much of anything by going to the 3-4. We can be better in the 3-4 this very season than we ranked in the 4-3 last year.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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I've said plenty on Rubin, Taylor, and Sheard. It's all there. Go read it.
Sure, what you didn't say is, and that's what Pluto suggests/what he's "hearing", is that Taylor will play NT and Sheard could see his snaps % reduced significantly.
I know that you think they "can" play, most of the board naively believes it's a given, but if they aren't, what's it worth? or are you cool with Rubin and Taylor sharing the NT spot? or Sheard playing on only 50% of snaps? Wasting resources anyway I look at this
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Stephens goes down. So you'd expect Rucker, the starter, to have many more snaps than Parker, the 3rd down specialist.
So what are the facts? Here's the total number of snaps:
Rucker: 631
Parker: 539
Anyone who has the games taped will be surprised to see that Parker was taking snaps away from Rucker. Read my sig for the proof. In fact, Winn took 43 snaps at DE later in the year. The guy who gave up those snaps were...you guessed it...Frostee Rucker.
Dude, have you EVER just admitted to be wrong? I mean this isn't even close...I feel like I'm hitting a kid's ice cream out of his hand here.
The plan from the get go was that Rucker/Parker were ONE player...and your quoting of their snap numbers are just further proof that they were...and pretty good at that, as their combined number for the position easily rank them top 10 at the position
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And while I don't care for him, Grossi acknowledged that Parker out-played the much more expensive Rucker. That's just sad, and shows that Rucker wasn't everything people thought he'd be.
Much more expensive? How can you blurb something like this after I posted their salaries? Rucker made 500k more in 2012..."much more", lol Their snap counts actually reflect their salaries perfectly
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In 2011 Rucker started 11 games and totaled 4 sacks and 44 tackles
In 2012 Rucker started 16 games and totaled 4 sacks and 48 tackles
I'd love to know where that ranks Rucker in the NFL for starting DE's. His forte was supposed to be an excellent run-stopper, but his contributions to that were marginal. The fact he lost snaps to Parker and even Winn later in the year speaks volumes, and being called out by Grossi doesn't help either.
Nevermind. I looked. His 4 sacks tied him for 84th.
That's just pathetic and I don't know if it's even worth an answer....posting that crap in the face of CLEAR evidence what Rucker's role was (HALF the starter for any frog that still doesn't get it) is ignorant at best...and even spinning stats, taking the totals instead of per snap numbers...just horrible. I mean who do you think you'll convince with that crap...seriously
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Stephens a fringe 4th DE
Part of the Triumvirate. Also not part of the solution.
Who the hell cares about Stephens? He was part of the triumvirate in your head. How many snaps did he even see at RDE (!)...when I saw him he was playing at Sheard's spot more often. You just threw him into your pathetic, now failed and beaten thread to bash the FO for the DE position, but Stephens barely even lined up at RDE...if Rucker/Parker played almost 1200 snaps there, then there aren't many snaps left at that position
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We're not losing much of anything by going to the 3-4. We can be better in the 3-4 this very season than we ranked in the 4-3 last year.
Oh look, another "I'm not saying anything" prediction by the Frog. It's somehwat funny by now. If they ARE better, then you predicted it. If they aren't, you just said they "can be better"...but enough Fence-Frog bashing, let's get back to the thread:
You say "We're not losing much of anything by going to the 3-4" and you will be right IF Taylor or Rubin plays DE, IF Winn plays an AVG 3-4 3down DE, IF Sheard transitions to OLB just fine AND IF Dqwell still produces at above AVG level at ILB...oh and some rookie OLB better be closer to Von Miller than V.Gholston
To me, that are a lot of IFs there and Pluto suggesting/hearing that Rubin/Taylor won't play much together already bursts your perfect situation bubble. Sure, it's possible, but to predict that we won't lose any production is very optimistic. I hope you are right though
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Why is Sheard going to see a significant reduction in snaps??
I read somewhere he took over 20% OF HIS SNAPS LAST YEAR STANDING UP.
I think we will see lots of Taylor, Runin, Winn, and Sheard on the field at the same time in a 3-4 alignment.
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yea.. if the season started today, we'd have:
LOLB: Sheard
ROLB: Gocong
MLB: DQ
MLB: JMJ
LDE: Taylor
NT: Rubin
RDE: Winn
I'm okay w/ that.. the secondary is my issue.
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Ahh Come on already,,, Horton isn't going to take a talented player like Sheard and cut his % of playing time. He's going to find a way to use that talent
Time to remove your head from the dark place
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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I don't think we should be remotely comfortable with Gocong starting at OLB. He's not that good of a pass rusher. He had value as a blitzer on the outside in the 4-3, but he's not good in coverage and is coming off of a year-long injury. Maybe he can back-up or stop-gap start at ILB, but we absolutely need to get a guy who can get steady pressure off the weak side.
My reservation about addressing the secondary at #6 is how we will end up paying both Milliner/Haden when their contracts come up. Who else is paying two corners top 10 money? That had me against the idea of Claiborne last year- despite his value being the best of what to pick between him/Blackmon/Richardson. I'd rather find a guy in F/A or a round or two later in the draft, but could be swayed still.
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I think we could get that Leon Sandcastle guy to play opposite... 
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I think we could get that Leon Sandcastle guy to play opposite...
he was drafted #1 overall by KC though. think how much they will want for him in a trade!
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Gocong also is owned 4.5mil in 2013. If he doesn't look like a clear cut starter in Camp I expect us to cut him, as he would not cost a cap hit. In fact I expect Banner to approach him well before that and say "how about 2 million salary and some incentives or we cut you here and now and good luck getting that money in FA"...and I'd be ok with that, it's the smart thing to do, although unpopular...but Banner has nothing to lose there
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Didn't Banner trade Gocong to us along with Sheldon Brown?
I have a hard time seeing Gocong remaining at $4.5 million, while coming off injury.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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My reservation about addressing the secondary at #6 is how we will end up paying both Milliner/Haden when their contracts come up. Who else is paying two corners top 10 money? That had me against the idea of Claiborne last year- despite his value being the best of what to pick between him/Blackmon/Richardson. I'd rather find a guy in F/A or a round or two later in the draft, but could be swayed still.
So your logic is not to draft someone that is going to be good... simply because we may have to pay him high dollar when he resigns at end of his first contract? And because we have 1 good CB already so we dont need another?
wow
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Yeah, makes little sense, especially since in today's NFL you have 3 starting CBs.
Also, we have Gordon and Little, who's contracts expire even closer from one another...or what about Rubin and Taylor? Thomas and Schwartz? Some contract 5 years down the road would be the least of my problems...in the NFL, A LOT happens in 5 years, it's another era
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Gocong also is owned 4.5mil in 2013. If he doesn't look like a clear cut starter in Camp I expect us to cut him, as he would not cost a cap hit. In fact I expect Banner to approach him well before that and say "how about 2 million salary and some incentives or we cut you here and now and good luck getting that money in FA"...and I'd be ok with that, it's the smart thing to do, although unpopular...but Banner has nothing to lose there
For once I agree with you. Gocong is history. Big deal. Some of these golden boys need upgraded anyways. And that includes Jackson.
Right now today I'd sign Ellerbe or Grant and trade Jackson in a second. And NO that's not considered a TEARDOWN. 
3 reasons our attempts at 3-4 defenses have failed in the past are the lack of a Nose. We have that now. Lack of a Rush OLB. We DON'T have that now but can easily solidify that at 6 in this draft. And an ILB named DQ.
You guys may love Jackson but he will soon become the weak link in Horton's D.
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Dq is daryl Washington in Horton s scheme
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Quote:
Didn't Banner trade Gocong to us along with Sheldon Brown?
I have a hard time seeing Gocong remaining at $4.5 million, while coming off injury.
Banner was the Pres of the club but I think he didn't have anything to do with that kinda stuff. I think that was Andy Reid and their GM (can't remember his name)
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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Quote:
Quote:
Didn't Banner trade Gocong to us along with Sheldon Brown?
I have a hard time seeing Gocong remaining at $4.5 million, while coming off injury.
Banner was the Pres of the club but I think he didn't have anything to do with that kinda stuff. I think that was Andy Reid and their GM (can't remember his name)
Roseman
Last edited by no_logo_required; 02/05/13 11:18 AM.
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You kind of over-simplified it on my end. I understand the need and value of corners in today's league, but I'm just struggling to find an example of team's paying two CB's top money- which at their respective draft positions (6/7)- you can about expect. I'd hardly dismiss that concern as thinking, "We have one good CB, why need another?!" There is a salary cap to think about, too. Just saying. Edit: found some. Using SportsCity - which for all I know is an awful source- after clicking on about 15 teams at random, all I found was 3 teams who's cap numbers for their top two corners were over $15 million. Those three teams were the Eagles/Jets ($20 million each in cap money to Revis/Cromartie and Samuel/Asamough) and the Broncos ($15 for Champ Bailey and Andre Goodman). The rest weren't even over $10 million for their number one and two corners. So the question remains, can both be afforded their actual value when it's pay-day? Or would we have to flip flop one of them knowing we couldn't handle both from a cap stand-point? $20 million is close close to 20% of the cap- and for two players. Also, my bias against Milliner at #6 is more-so the emphasis I'd put on pass rusher- especially for us right now- over cover corner. I mean the best DE we've had since the return is probably Kenard Lang. That needs fixed.
Last edited by 4yikes2yoshi0; 02/05/13 12:48 PM.
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Big Phil and Rubin can play either DE or DT and they may switch back and forth. I see no issue with the DL at all and Rucker can play DE in the 3-4. I dont know if we will retain him as we can probably get similar value from a cheaper player.
I also feel our linebackers will fit in Horton's scheme. If they can blitz effectively they will play and if they can't they will be replaced. They can all cover decently so that wont be a problem. Now after saying all that, I would not be the least bit surprised if we traded DQ. Type of move I expect from Banner.
The big issue and it's one the Browns have always had is the WOLB spot..we do not have a impact player over there and really haven't had one regardless of scheme.
Thats why they ,if possible need to target one in FA ,..one that comes to mind could be had if the Rats have to pay Flacco big money..Kruger.
If they have spend big ,they can't pay everyone..
Get him and you just shored up that spot for a long time.
The draft has several players I like, D.Moore,B.Jenkins,Travis Long,etc
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Kruger is a guy that is a must get in FA if they decide they want to go somewhere different in round 1. We have to have a WOLB day one, and if we don't get one in FA it forces our hand to draft a Moore or Wingo at 6.
If they are dead set on drafting a CB or QB in round 1 they just about have to get a guy like Kruger in FA. I have a feeling we are going to be much more active in FA than we have been in the past, but it will be for younger guys that can be apart of the core, and not washed up vets like Willie M. that Savage was so in love with.........or overpriced average guys like Fujita and Rucker that Heckert seemed fond of..........at least that's my hope.
I would really love them to sign a OLB and CB/S in FA this year. We need a ton of talent and just building through the draft will not get it done.
Against logic,the most effective armor is willful ignorance.
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