I understand that switching to 3-4 is gonna require some different types of players in the front 7. But if we are gonna have an attacking defense then you HAVE to have 2 viable corners!!!!!
Picking a CB in 3rd you might get lucky but the odds are you wont.
Picking up a OLB or DE in the 3rd ... there is still some good quality talent there. Especially in this draft with the DE's
Your just not gonna find that plug n play CB in the 3rd like you can with OLB and de's.
I would think it would be easier to find an elite corner in the third round and later than it is to find a elite pass rusher in the third round or later.
I say this after doing no research and without thinking about it much.
Quote: I would think it would be easier to find an elite corner in the third round and later than it is to find a elite pass rusher in the third round or later.
I say this after doing no research and without thinking about it much.
I would disagree. Elite CB's go high 1st round. Good Cb's go late 1st round. Guys who fall to the 3rd who can be good are small school guys that teams are afraid to take a chance on because of the quality of competition they faced making evaluation difficult.
Rush OLb's are easier because you have a lot of athletic guys who can chase down the Qb but don't fit size wise into the 43 DE mold. That eliminates half of the teams from drafting them. You also have the small school guy who drops because of the competition. And you have guys who don't have production because of the scheme or the way they wee used. An example of this would be Sean Porter Texas A&M. He had 9.5 sacks and 17 tfl in 2011 but they switche schemes and in 2012 he only had 3.5 sacks and 6.5 tfl because they asked himto drop into coverage more than rush the Qb. Porter is projected to the 3rd round and is the guy I would target this year in round 3 after taking a Cb in round 1 (unless Moore is available).
And I would be happy dopping down in round 1 and taking Banks or Rhodes.
Don't blame the clown for acting like a clown. Ask yourself why you keep going to the circus.
I've been saying this in numerous threads.. the only thing that may keep us from pulling the trigger is if our head guys say we are drafting BPA.
At 6, I dont know if he is BPA, but he definitely fills a need. I want him on our team. I want to see our secondary on fire next season!! and drafting Milliner will make us stronger.
I'm hoping for Milliner in the 1st, and Bacari Rambo in the 3rd.. thats my wishlist right now.
Quote: I would think it would be easier to find an elite corner in the third round and later than it is to find a elite pass rusher in the third round or later.
I say this after doing no research and without thinking about it much.
I think it goes without saying that the odds of finding an elite anything, except maybe punter or FG kicker, in the 3rd round or later are pretty slim... At that point you are looking for potential starters/contributors and if one of them happens to become elite, well then you got pretty lucky. So at that point, you usually have 2 options, you can go for a good player from a good program who will likely be a serviceable guy for you or you can roll the dice on a great player from a small time program who isn't tested against great competition...
And this is just my own unscientific opinion, but I would think you would have better odds of drafting a physical specimen of a man and turn him into a pass rusher than you would of finding a guy with the skill set to play corner...
It's a passing league right now, we are a disaster when Haden is out. When he is in, opposing QB's were targeting Sheldon or whoever was playing the other side.
IMO, go after Milliner hard. If we get him, then it becomes more difficult to pass on the Browns. Teams will have to try the run / short pass to the TE because we would be weaker at LB
If Milliner is gone, then frankly my choice becomes difficult. I'd lean toward the hybrid DE / LB
I like Millner as well. You see him in the first? Is he someone you would go up for? Just wasn't clear what you were suggesting. Has a motor and skills.
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
I just think there are more options in the 3rd and 4th rounds to find someone who can come in and contribute at De or OLb. More so than finding a CB that can do so. I'm not saying it doesnt happen. But with this class I think there are a lot more DE's with talent than CB's
Quote: I like Millner as well. You see him in the first? Is he someone you would go up for? Just wasn't clear what you were suggesting. Has a motor and skills.
He must because the kid won't be there in the 2nd.
If we wnt him and don't want him at #6, we better not drop more than 3-4 slots because he will surely be gone by then.....corner is the new defensive skill position.
If you don't have corners, you are screwed.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
The more I look at this draft, the uglier it gets. We're sitting pretty at 6, but it isn't that pretty. Many of these "top talents" like Jones, Mingo and Werner have serious flags, and the few homerun guys either won't be there when we pick, we won't need them because we're good at their position, or we're drafting too high to take him, such as one of the guards.
I'm zeroing in on Millner. There's a chance he's gone when we pick, but if he's there, I'm starting to firm up my belief that's who I want.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy. Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
Just as a heads up.. his name is spelled Milliner. There are 2 i's
And if you read my post, thats who I want. IF it's true that this has become a passing league and I'm not so sure it has.. there is very much a place for the run game.. but I digress..
IF this is a passing league, you want the best outfield you can get. Haden, Ward, Milliner would go a long ways towards accomplishing just that.
The best way to help corners are to find great rushers, but we may not have the ideal fit at 6 in this draft. Since we absolutely, positively need a corner to pair with Haden, Milliner seems like the right combination of value and need.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy. Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
The best way to help corners are to find great rushers, but we may not have the ideal fit at 6 in this draft. Since we absolutely, positively need a corner to pair with Haden, Milliner seems like the right combination of value and need.
I think it's obvious.I think all of us saw what happened when Haden was out. Our DB's got torched. When Haden was back.. opposing QB's simply threw to the other side.
I thought Sheldon Brown played much better than the fan reception last year.
Considering he is getting over the hill I have no problem with finding his replacement, but I wouldn't consider it to have much to do with his performance.
One problem with Haden being out was we also had Brown out at times and Patterson milking an injury. Skrine, Wade, and Bademosi/Ventrone/Hagg was a really weak lineup.
I'd be happy to bring in a top corner or top pass rush in the upcoming draft. If we can snag a FA FS that would make for quite a defense.
Quote: The more I look at this draft, the uglier it gets. We're sitting pretty at 6, but it isn't that pretty. Many of these "top talents" like Jones, Mingo and Werner have serious flags, and the few homerun guys either won't be there when we pick, we won't need them because we're good at their position, or we're drafting too high to take him, such as one of the guards.
I'm zeroing in on Millner. There's a chance he's gone when we pick, but if he's there, I'm starting to firm up my belief that's who I want.
I pretty much agree except being to high to draft a great player. It almost sounds goofy.
My top 3 at this point is Moore, Millner, Warmack. I take whichever of the 3 is there or take them in that order.
The others, I agree, there are flags I don't want to chance at this point in the teams development.
But, since I have said those are my 3, you can bet none of them will be selected by the Browns.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
Milliner is the consensus #1 Cb according to draftniks. How much better is he than Jonathan Banks Miss ST or Xavier Rhodes FSU?
If anyone has seen more than one to two games from each of these guys I would love a comparison. From what I have seen:
Milliner - Very solid cover guy Very good in run support.
Banks - Was a turnover maker last season but much less so this past one. I heard he was playing through an injury (Ankle?) the 2nd half of the season. Not sure how he is in run support
Rhodes - The biggest of the 3. Very physical in coverage which may fit the defensive scheme that we are planning on running.
Anybody have anything else to add?
Don't blame the clown for acting like a clown. Ask yourself why you keep going to the circus.
Of course if we like Banks or Rhodes nearly has much as Milliner that would allow us to trade down is an offer was made. Banks projects in the 10-15 range, most commonly to TB at 13. Rhodes is currently being projected between 20 and 40.
Don't blame the clown for acting like a clown. Ask yourself why you keep going to the circus.
I just do not see Milliner making it past Detroit.
I am pretty sure the Browns will go defense. I like Moore a lot as well, and then Milliner, but I am not real optimistic.
There will be no playoffs. Can’t play with who we have out there and compounding it with garbage playcalling and worse execution. We don’t have good skill players on offense period. Browns 20 - Bears 17.
If the Browns stay at 6 and Millner is there I agree he would be the best choice.
However, because of the talent of this draft and the way this draft lays out as far as strength trading down if a partner can be found may be the way to go.
The whole quarterback question still remains. If the Browns move on Alex Smith then that part of the formula for success is addressed.
Free agency could be used to address LB. Anthony Spencer would help there. Also, there may be a corner in free agency that could help. Sean Smith from Miami could be a good pick up.
The sixth pick at this point is up in the air. Not sure the value is there. Finding a partner to trade with does not always present itself.
The dynamics of the draft are just so crazy. Your team, when you pick, who is there, the talent in the draft by position, so many variables. That is why I am still livid about last year. We had a major need at the most important position on the field. We had the ammo to move up if necessary. The talent was there to be had. All the dynamics were in place. Which of course rarely happens. Inexcusable that Griffin is not a Cleveland Brown.
Recovery from such an error is very hard to overcome when the pursuit of a championship is at stake. So here we stand with the sixth pick and the prospects for a significant jump in improvement are just not there.
The best way to help corners are to find great rushers, but we may not have the ideal fit at 6 in this draft. Since we absolutely, positively need a corner to pair with Haden, Milliner seems like the right combination of value and need.
Let me ask u 2 things Toad.
1) What has a higher probability of success in this so-called pass-happy league?
1a) A top cover corner having to shadow a receiver for 5+ seconds because of no pressure on a QB. (Good luck to any team that believes this one)
1b) A powerful pass rush to where corners don't need to shadow a receiver for 5+ seconds.
2) Do u take Milliner over Moore or Werner if either r there at 6?
In our situation, with a top cover guy in Haden in the fold and no sure pass rusher at OLB, we absolutely have to take/value pass rusher higher than CB. Especially since no2 CBs aren't all that important....it got important to us last season because Haden missed 5 games, but the no2 WRs Milliner would have to cover aren't so much game changers than some slot WR out there, so an argument could be made that an elite nickel-CB is as important as a good no2 outside CB. I'd try to bring in 1 or even 2 CBs via FA and concentrate on pass rusher at 6 overall
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
Quote: In our situation, with a top cover guy in Haden in the fold and no sure pass rusher at OLB, we absolutely have to take/value pass rusher higher than CB. Especially since no2 CBs aren't all that important....it got important to us last season because Haden missed 5 games, but the no2 WRs Milliner would have to cover aren't so much game changers than some slot WR out there, so an argument could be made that an elite nickel-CB is as important as a good no2 outside CB. I'd try to bring in 1 or even 2 CBs via FA and concentrate on pass rusher at 6 overall
My thoughts exactly.
Everyone freaks how the secondary collapsed when Haden was out. Well imagine that.
Quote: In our situation, with a top cover guy in Haden in the fold and no sure pass rusher at OLB, we absolutely have to take/value pass rusher higher than CB. Especially since no2 CBs aren't all that important....it got important to us last season because Haden missed 5 games, but the no2 WRs Milliner would have to cover aren't so much game changers than some slot WR out there, so an argument could be made that an elite nickel-CB is as important as a good no2 outside CB. I'd try to bring in 1 or even 2 CBs via FA and concentrate on pass rusher at 6 overall
My thoughts exactly.
Everyone freaks how the secondary collapsed when Haden was out. Well imagine that.
I could get more in line with the idea of going pass rusher before CB if our # 2 CB was not 30+ years old and our # 3 was not a 2nd yr kid from Tenn Chattanooga picked in the 5th Rd.
I don't think we have to have a stud opposite Haden...but we need a good # 2 CB who can step up for a week or two if he has to do so. We do not have that guy right now.
If we can find a "good" # 2 CB via FA, I'm all about pass rusher (1st) in the draft - unless that guy is rated as having "potential". At #6 overall I want a sure thing...if there is not a sure-thing pass rusher at #6, I'm taking the next sure-thing left on the board...even a G.
If we do not address the # 2 CB in FA...and it's Milliner or J Jones or Werner sitting there at #6...I'm going Milliner. The only pass rusher I like at #6 is Moore. I'd be more willing to take a guy like Werner at # 6 IF we addressed CB #2 before the draft.
The bottom line is that we need both a pass rusher and a # 2 CB. I get the argument that a stud pass rusher is better than a stud CB and I agree...except when you have no #2 CB.
I think we desperately need a # 2 CB. If we don't get that in FA, I believe our only option is to get him at # 6 overall...I don't think that # 2 CB will be there with our 3rd Rd pick.
Quote: The more I look at this draft, the uglier it gets. We're sitting pretty at 6, but it isn't that pretty. Many of these "top talents" like Jones, Mingo and Werner have serious flags, and the few homerun guys either won't be there when we pick, we won't need them because we're good at their position, or we're drafting too high to take him, such as one of the guards.
I'm zeroing in on Millner. There's a chance he's gone when we pick, but if he's there, I'm starting to firm up my belief that's who I want.
I pretty much agree except being to high to draft a great player. It almost sounds goofy.
My top 3 at this point is Moore, Millner, Warmack. I take whichever of the 3 is there or take them in that order.
The others, I agree, there are flags I don't want to chance at this point in the teams development.
But, since I have said those are my 3, you can bet none of them will be selected by the Browns.
Hopefully Lombardi agrees.
He is the one fly in the ointment IMHO and his past history indicates he falls for the media hyped flash in the pans way too often.
One thing I think we need to stop doing is drafting players while using the guy they'll replace as a benchmark. We have to start using the League as a benchmark. The question should not be "Is this guy better than Sheldon Brown or Buster Skrine at CB, or Shawn Lauvao or Pinkston/Greco at G, etc.". The discussion needs to be "is this guy NFL-quality?". That's why we shouldn't blink if Warmack is the guy we get at 6, because he is - by all accounts - an All-Pro quality Guard. Thats why, IMO, we can't keep trading down to stock up on picks that will be used on guys that are not more than average NFL players. Thats a formula for mediocrity if ever there's been one. We are not in position, ala New England, to trade down for quantity vs quality, because we aren't good enough to only "maintain". We have to improve, and the only way to do that is to draft excellence - by NFL standards - when and where we can.
The best way to help corners are to find great rushers, but we may not have the ideal fit at 6 in this draft. Since we absolutely, positively need a corner to pair with Haden, Milliner seems like the right combination of value and need.
Let me ask u 2 things Toad.
1) What has a higher probability of success in this so-called pass-happy league?
1a) A top cover corner having to shadow a receiver for 5+ seconds because of no pressure on a QB. (Good luck to any team that believes this one)
1b) A powerful pass rush to where corners don't need to shadow a receiver for 5+ seconds.
2) Do u take Milliner over Moore or Werner if either r there at 6?
It's a little more complicated than that, but I know where you're going man.
Since I referenced the best way to help corners are with a pass-rush, it's obvious how I feel about the need for rushers, especially on a defense that has only one guy who knows how to get to the QB in Sheard.
Now here's where complications set in...
There are red-flags regarding the two guys you mentioned. I've gone back and watched as much game-footage as I could find on Werner. I'd noted that he has the quickest first-step in this draft, and one of the quicker first-steps I've ever seen. He's a natural rusher which would translate well to the NFL. However, I can honestly say that I've never seen a player who quits on plays as often as Werner, meaning he's the antithesis of a "high-motor guy." If Werner doesn't get to the QB, he literally stops playing all-together. In a 3-4, you have to have guys that are active, and Werner is a quitter. When watching him out in space, you don't see a guy who is nearly as natural as when playing on the line. He becomes a project as a 3-4 OLB, and when you combine that with his highly questionable motor, you're suddenly making a HUGE gamble with the 6th pick in the draft.
Werner isn't even a consideration for me if I'm a 3-4 team.
As for Moore, I feel he's a product of name-recognition right now. That isn't questioning his talent, but when I've watched him play, I don't see a guy that his heads-and-shoulders above the rest of the 3-4 OLB's coming out. If he isn't absolutely better than the rest, there's no reason to spend the 6th pick in the draft on a player when a similar player can be had later in the draft or even in free agency.
Furthermore, one has to compare what can be had in free agency. Are we strapped for cash and stuck only drafting players? No, we have plenty of room to acquire talent like Kruger or Spencer or others. But what about at cornerback? Is there a guy later in the draft or in free agency that matches up to Milliner? That's where further analysis is required.
Yes, we need someone to bring some rush ability, but we also need a starting corner.
It's going to be harder to acquire a front-line corner than an OLB. That's why, as of right now, it's my opinion the best guy in terms of value would be taking Milliner.
There are actually other guys I'd take over Moore, including Jones.
Frankly, I'd rather acquire a veteran for the other OLB spot.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy. Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
One problem with Haden being out was we also had Brown out at times and Patterson milking an injury. Skrine, Wade, and Bademosi/Ventrone/Hagg was a really weak lineup.
I'd be happy to bring in a top corner or top pass rush in the upcoming draft. If we can snag a FA FS that would make for quite a defense.
hit the nail on the head ! Patterson's already gone and sheldon probably wont be resigned.
If Millininer is there its a no brainer. If not I think the best way to fill that outfield need is with a trade down and taking a guy. Not FA, thats the route we went through with Sheldon, and not with a 2nd or 3rd day pick.
There are a number of guys in FA who are possible #2s if we go that route. Problem with FA predictions is most of them end up re-signing with their teams.
I'd be happy to bring back Sheldon Brown. Some names out there like Grimes, Talib, Rodgers-Cromartie, Jammer, Clements, Florence, T. Newman, Porter, Routt, M. Trufant; all seem like possible #2's to me. How many actually make it to FA at a reasonable price is another question. (I intentionally avoided including pac-man )
I'd have no problem with signing Milliner so long as we are able to fill other needs. Hard to argue against having quality corners.
It is reasonable to expect we may look to fill the CB 3/4 slot this coming draft. Need to remember we are down both Brown and Patterson.
I think that we definitely lead another starting CB to pair with Haden. I would put that at the top of the list, along with a serious pass rusher.
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