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2010: 5-11
2011: 4-12
2012: 5-11
Give props, huh? For losing. 
Wait...you want people to applaud the previous regime for leaving a bunch of cap space which came at the cost of fielding a loser. Makes perfect sense.
I brought that up though and it's a legitimate point that shouldn't just tossed away. So many times a team puts on a bunch of losers and leave the team in cap hell (see NY Jets).  We all know that the big salaries went to the front office. 
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So which is it? You're giving props to Holmgren then turning right around and saying he didn't have a choice. Talking out of both sides of your mouth doesn't make for a convincing argument. 
Just so you know, I didn't make this observation and I don't agree with it.
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Cortland Finnegan
Ben Grubbs
Mario Manningham
Vincent Jackson
Martellus bennet
Laron Landry
And how many of them are free agents again this year? Landry and Bennett are already. Manningham may become a cap casualty in San Fran.
I'll let you spin that around and try to manipulate those names. We could have used any of them.
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Now let me give you another one: Alex Smith. God knows he'd have done better than Weeden, and we wouldn't have been looking at replacing the QB right now. We'd be able to focus on other positions.
Hey! Don't go making statements like that. Weeden suffered under Pat Shurmur and the Holmgren regime. Well, I guess the same could be said of McCoy too. Would Alex Smith have done any better with them? I honestly don't think so. Free agents go where the money is, but the really smart ones go where the good coaches are.
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The Holmgren dictatorship failed and so here we are. They don't get credit for giving us a wealth of cap space when the cost of that space came at 3 years of losing, nor do they get credit when there were several viable free agents who could have paid immediate impactful dividends to this team.
You could expand your view and say that the Holmgren regime was a resounding success. He managed to get Lerner to sell the team and leave the new ownership and front office a great deal of room to begin rebuilding. It was at the cost of make one of the most loyal and raucous fanbases into a deflated and schizophrenic one. 
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It would be hard not to improve the roster with the crap Mangini left behind.
Mangini controlled personnel for one year.
Let's not overstate what was left to him either.
It's not often that I've agreed with you on a lot in regards to football, but I'll give you points on both of these statements.
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We need a punter badly. Hodges was pretty awful at times last year.
I know it. Again, I think I'd prefer getting a drafted player that does both jobs in the same player.
Punting and kicking are two completely different skill sets.
And yet there are at least two prospects that could be taken in the upcoming draft that do both the punting and kicking for their teams and are reasonably successful at it.
Quinn Sharp for Okie State and Brandon McManus from Temple, Either one can be had and we could fill both the punting and kicking duties with one draft pick.
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And if he gets hurt, we are completely screwed.
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Entirely possible, but that has more to do with two ligaments he tore in week 16 than performance.
Brent Grimes is probably the biggest CB on the market this year, and he's an unknown because of an achilles tear. He also missed time in 2011 and will be 30 when the season starts. The guys after him are even bigger question marks due to injury, age, and level of play.
I think we're better signing linebackers in free agency and trying for Milliner in the draft or another impact position.
You consider grimes a bigger get than DRC?
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Entirely possible, but that has more to do with two ligaments he tore in week 16 than performance.
Brent Grimes is probably the biggest CB on the market this year, and he's an unknown because of an achilles tear. He also missed time in 2011 and will be 30 when the season starts. The guys after him are even bigger question marks due to injury, age, and level of play.
I think we're better signing linebackers in free agency and trying for Milliner in the draft or another impact position.
You consider grimes a bigger get than DRC?
DRC ended up falling out of favor in 'Zona, and he's fallen out of favor in Philly. With the kind of money he thinks he should get paid, I don't know that he's much of an option. I think someone like Grimes might be the sweet-spot for teams that want a fix at the position.
Grimes is moving because of injury, but it's hard to ignore how DRC is about to be on his 3rd team at the young age of 27.
Sometimes guys like this end up pricing themselves out of the market, so lesser guys become bigger, more popular names. That's why I said what I said about Grimes.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Rodgers-Cromartie fell out of favor in Arizona? I think they liked him, they just had to give him up to get Kolb.
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There is a reason no one currently kicks and punts. Each is a specialized skill. I'm sure both of the guys you mentioned are great at what they do in college, but being able to do both at an NFL level is unlikely.
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You never got it, did you? Re-read what I wrote when I posted the FA list. I said "cherry pick your 5 FAs that were WORTH it" as in take your best 5 to make a point because I fully expected you and everyone else to do that....but my point is and was that this is hindsight and out of a list of 125 players acting as we would have signed 2 or more of those 5 "cherry picked" is illusionary (I thought I made it perfectly clear what I meant by using these words but apparently your taking my words literally to make a point, more crappy rethorics from the Frog)...and 5 or even 10 out of 125 isn't a big number, you know? and as far as I can see no team had 2 of anyone's cherry picked list and most teams still were losers as far as I can see
Manningham? He wasn't even a real starter....
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Ask someone to do something, even though regardless of what they had done you still were going to say they were wrong...
Seems legit.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Jesus, I really have to spell it out everytime? 5 or 10 out of 125+ isn't all that much, especially if you can cherry pick them....that has been my point all along. And for every list of good FA signings I can can make 5 lists of bad FA signings....to cherry pick after the fact is just that, cherry picking. I remember many wanted us to go aftter Mario Williams, I think a certain Frog was the front runner for Mario, strange he didn't have him on his list 12 months later? but since 12 months have passed, it's time for a Frog laugh again Here's what Toad would have done instead of signing that crappy duo Rucker/Parker...enjoy: Quote:
Ok, Dj, there's going to likely be a serious disagreement here because I refuse to be on board with the premise that we're not going to spend any real money on any free agents. We aren't up against the cap, and I don't believe it would hurt us at all to spend a little money on a guy different than Parker. I'd also repeat what I said when we first signed Rucker: If he's going to tandem with another solid guy, this is a good move. If he's the primary guy without someone else worthy of note, it's a bad one. I don't see anything in Parker that tells me to be optimistic, just as I didn't see anything in Mitchell.
So, now that I've gotten that out of the way, and keeping in mind I felt as though we can still build through the draft while paying at least one substantial contract...
The primary guy I would want to match with a guy like Rucker is Mark Anderson. He pumped out 10 sacks for the Pats last year and will only be 29, unlike Parker who had 1.5 sacks and will be 34. Incidentally, Anderson is still available. He played in less than half of the Pats defensive snaps. He isn't going to break the bank. That's an obvious one to me.
I don't really believe Mincey ever wanted to leave Jacksonville.
I think Abraham could have been talked out of leaving Atlanta with enough money. He signed for a reasonable 3 years $21 million dollar deal. I'd bet the deal is really only a two-year deal. When it shakes out, he's probably going to cost them $5-$6 mil per season. We could EASILY have done that.
Andre Carter is the same age as Parker, but still has something left in the tank, as he was coming off his fourth double-digit sack season of his career. The risk with him was the injury that knocked him out for the year, but is that anything that doctors can't clear? Carter is still out there, and will get something very close to what we signed Parker for.
Any of those three could be paired with Rucker, or in a pinch, even start.
There are many ways we could even go this very moment which are better than Parker. I could even debate that some of them are better than Rucker as a full-time starter, which is something we don't really know he can do.
M.Anderson had 12Ts, 1 sack in 5 games (4starts)
Mincey had 41 Ts, 3 sacks, 2 FF in 16 starts
Abraham had 35Ts, 10 sacks, 6 FF in 16 games (15starts)
A.Carter had 19Ts, 2.5 sacks, 1 FF in 12 games (0 starts)
M.Williams 46Ts, 10.5 sacks, 2 FFs in 16 starts
Rucker/Parker 72 Ts, 10 sacks, 3 FFs in 16 starts
Just to show all of you what a non-hindsight FA list looks like BEFORE and AFTER it's all said and done. Turns out Rucker/Parker were more (or as) effective than pretty much any name Toad screamed for out there, go figure ...and all that without eating up future cap space.
Same date next year: Alex Smith's 2013 stats
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Here, I'll spell it out for you. You asked people to pick 5 FAs out of the list. They did. But then suddenly it didn't matter who they picked. Because you already had your next hurdle set up before they were two steps away from the first.. Cool, guys you didn't want to sign didn't play that great. That means absolutely nothing, except you get to pound your chest for no reason.. 
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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For the record, here's my direct response from March of last year: Quote:
Funny, Andre Carter had 2.5 sacks the year before he had 10 this season for the Pats and every other season Carter's sack numbers ar as good as Frostee's...his situation is comparable to Parker's..both have been much better before but then got benched...I suspect the hold up on Carter is that he wants his last multi year contract as he's 1 year younger than Parker...same with Abraham....would you really throw a 3year deal, 6-7mil per season at a 33yo? I also doubt that Abraham would have left a PO team without some overspending, so it would have taken us 7-8mil...and Abraham is a rather poor run player...he's a pass rusher only, always been
Carter and Anderson played in a 3-4 last season too...so there's some projection involved, moving Anderson from a stand up player back to the dirt isn't guaranteed double digit sack numbers anymore, especially if he has to shoulder many more snaps and he too is a poor run player as he's played mostly on 3rd downs only without losing energy on 1st and 2nd stopping the run, he was a speciality player....hey Benard had 8 sacks too once, might as well give him 5-6mil/year, or not? ...and again, me thinks he wants to get paid for that 10 sack season....multi year fashion...and if you look at Anderson's career before...he jumped from Bears to Texans and then to the Pats...he had 3 teams the last 3 seasons....if we would have signed him last offseason you would have probably said the same about him as you now do about Parker...and Parker has a much stronger track record...not even close
Again, Rucker+Parker isn't sexy but in order to upgrade BOTH run stopping and pass rushing (and both were big needs, right?) it may have been the best move possible, as complete RDEs at their prime don't hit FA all too often...ok, we could have signed Mario (but then the rest of our FA would have been crippled), so let's say it was a good plan B
It wasn't only about spending, more about spending wisely...Rucker got a long term contract (still easily cut-able if he underperforms) because he ha long term value as a run stopper, Parker is a 1year bet from Heckert and a smart one imho as he has a track record of playing good, even after signing contracts
All other options had much more risks involved...what if Carter goes back to his 4sack self? Seems he shows up in contract years a lot...what if Anderson, who's a pass rush only guy, goes back to his 1-4 sacks of season's past? Then you're stuck with real money on proven UNDER-performers...you know, there's a reason the Pats let their great pass rush duo go, or at least are not willing to meet their asking price just yet....they're not worth it
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Here, I'll spell it out for you.
You asked people to pick 5 FAs out of the list.
They did.
How about you quote what I actually wrote and then come back, will you? It's not my problem if you can't read and comprehend properly.
When someone uses the term "cherry pick" it implies that it's slim pickings, right? and that's with the magic hindsight lense. That was my point, because people on here throw out 20+ names every offseason and act as if any of those names would be instant upgrades to the roster. Half of them turn out to be not only non-upgrades but also future mess because they tie up cap space. Toad's "musings" of 11 months ago are THE perfect example for this. When I asked to cherry pick from the list, none of the guys he mentioned 11 months ago made his hindsight list...how come?
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I also invite you to look at last year's FA crop and cherry pick the 5 players that were worth it, have fun: http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/content/all-2012-nfl-free-agent-signings-through-friday/14420/
That's what you said.
Find 5 players that were worth signing. People did that. You're the one changing the subject matter as it fits your argument..
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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....or you haven't gotten my argument to begin with
#gmstrong
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You could of easily made your point to begin with, instead you made it seem like there wasn't a single FA last season that was worth it... And when that was refuted, you moved on to what your "actual" argument was...
I don't understand what people mean, only what they say...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Django is smarter than everyone and can never be wrong.
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You could of easily made your point to begin with, instead you made it seem like there wasn't a single FA last season that was worth it... And when that was refuted, you moved on to what your "actual" argument was...
Really? I guess that's how the Frog took it too, so I have to ask the both of you:
Which part of :
"cherry pick the 5 players that were WORTH it"
didn't you get again?
Also notice the ironic "have fun" at the end of it, to point to the futility of any 5 name hindsight list...that some posters went out and still did that list is the fun part of it all.
When 125 players change teams, don't you think in at least 100 of those cases the team expects an AVG or better NFL player in return? If you can come up with only 5 or 10 that "were worth it", then it's not a great argument to go out and be big spenders in FA...who know, maybe you get it now, but I could care less by now, lol
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I could care less by now
So you care 
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Django is smarter than everyone and can never be wrong.
And when Django isn't on screen, we'll have all the other posters ask "Where's Django?"
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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And if he gets hurt, we are completely screwed.
How? You have someone take over the duties for punting and then hire a player to punt the ball.
For kicking, you send one player to the practice squad and sign a kicker.
Or draft both so that if one goes down, you don't have bring in another player to replace him.
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There is a reason no one currently kicks and punts. Each is a specialized skill. I'm sure both of the guys you mentioned are great at what they do in college, but being able to do both at an NFL level is unlikely.
Why would it be different at the NFL level?
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Because you can't possibly be NFL caliber at both skills.
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He was talking about in-game. If a team has a kicker/punter and he gets hurt you are screwed.
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He was talking about in-game. If a team has a kicker/punter and he gets hurt you are screwed.
Yeah, this one. The one guy susually backs up the other for cases like that, but not very well.
If you think about it, they strike the ball in such different points in their swing it would seem tough to optimize your muscles for both activities. Plus for placekicking you're generally trying to center it as much as possible and punting is so directional. It seems like it would be extremely tough to perform both at an NFL level.
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Atlanta tried to have one guy do both the kicking and punting a couple years ago and he struggled trying to manage both duties - FWIW
Am I perfect? No
Am I trying to be a better person?
Also no
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Atlanta tried to have one guy do both the kicking and punting a couple years ago and he struggled trying to manage both duties - FWIW
Michael Koenen. He is now with TB and he is their punter and also handles kickoffs.
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That's the guy. And he struggled mightily with his FG accuracy - if I remember correctly.
Am I perfect? No
Am I trying to be a better person?
Also no
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That's the guy. And he struggled mightily with his FG accuracy - if I remember correctly.
his first preseason game he was spectacular and hit a bunch of long FGs. then, as things progressed, he started missing almost all of them (even short ones). i don't remember if that was still preseason or after the season started though.
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jc Punters are so overrated, if that's even possible. The difference between a good punt coverage unit and a bad punt coverage unit in the NFL is about 5 yards net average, and the punter himself is obviously only partially responsible for that difference (say half?) Teams punt on average 4-5 times per game. That number really could be reduced if coaches were more optimal (i.e. aggressive) going for it on 4th and short in general, and going for it on 4th down between roughly the opponent's 35-40 yard line, where missed FGs give the opponent good field position anyway and punts net less than usual due to the compressed field. I'm not saying it's acceptable to have a guy shanking punts left and right, but the difference between having the 5th best punter in the league vs the 5th worst punter in the league really isn't that significant. That's also not to say that you don't try to upgrade the position, you might as well, just don't go dropping a 3rd round pick on a punter. Kicker is more important IMO, give me a guy that routinely gets touchbacks on kickoffs and can kick clutch FGs. Now those are important. In a perfect world, you could have a great kicker who could double as a respectable punter, but there has to be a reason that never happens. Other people have already covered that.. injury risk, differing skillsets, and I'd argue that 45 man gameday rosters are flexible enough that there really isn't a great incentive to take that route.
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if starting field position is most important on kickoffs than Dawson (+Browns coverage) was good in 2012 despite the fact that Dawson isn't a high touchback guy.
also, net punt yardage is an incomplete stat when assessing punts. it's unfair to punters who often are stuck punting short on purpose (coffin corner kicks). you need to assess a bunch of scenarios differently and do it with a small sample size (where one bad coverage can skew things). punting isn't the most important factor in a game, but it is important.
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Teams punt on average 4-5 times per game.
Man, I don't know what teams you've been watching the past few years.
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Because you can't possibly be NFL caliber at both skills.
Really? Why not?
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General comment on all the last several posts, not directed at anyone in particular There appears to be a great deal of peeing in the wind here. Bottom line, for any good the last several regimes may or may not have done, they have one thing in common, the all had losing seasons. There really isn't anything else that matters. RAC and Savage: Man, outside of finding Cribbs and picking Thomas and DQ, drafting sucked and as a coach, RAC was just too freaking nice to these guys.. Didn't demand anything. Mangini: I think his teams were disciplined and his drafting horrible. But he got the best out of what he had,,, what he had was mostly his fault however. Holmgren, Heckert and Shurmur: Probably good business side. Managned the business well. The drafts were pretty decent, some mistakes but what draft doesn't have some of those, coaching,,,,,ehh,, yuk But we ended up with cap space and some nice young talent, Richardson, Gordon, Little, Benji, a solid line, maybe a decent change of pace back in hardesty and a bruiser in smelley (I really think we can't forget about him) and some very nice Dline help and Haden as well. So all in all, if I had to look at the last three regimes, I'd say Holmgren, Heckert did the best. But in the end, the one thing they have in common is, they were all running losing records. So, I've come to the conclusion (yeah, grasp of the obvious) that maybe,, just maybe, an overhaul is the right answer. I didn't say rebuild, I said overhaul.. Re-purpose players, take what you got, get the most out of it until you get what you need. Maybe it will work, maybe it won't, but Chud, Turner and Horton get a grace period. We as fans need to see improvement or we will revolt against this regime as well. And another senseless Pee into the wind argument will take place. Isn't life grand?
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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If it was possible someday would have thought of it and done it by now.
Is saving one roster spot really worth the potential disaster of having your kicker/punter go down during a game? Think about how many things that affects:
Field goals
PATs
Punts
Kickoffs
Onside Kicks
Not worth it. At all.
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if starting field position is most important on kickoffs than Dawson (+Browns coverage) was good in 2012 despite the fact that Dawson isn't a high touchback guy.
also, net punt yardage is an incomplete stat when assessing punts. it's unfair to punters who often are stuck punting short on purpose (coffin corner kicks). you need to assess a bunch of scenarios differently and do it with a small sample size (where one bad coverage can skew things). punting isn't the most important factor in a game, but it is important.
Yeah those are good points, but those situations you list should roughly balance out across the entire spectrum of punters.
Put it this way, what actually happens on draft day pretty much follows what I said in the post above. Usually a few punters get taken in the late rounds, nobody pays big contracts to punters, and that's a reflection of the value of the position. I'm not opposed to using a late round pick on a punter if that's a need-- that's what good teams do.
I do think it would be intriguing to pick up an extra roster spot. That is something I have thought of many times before, but if it were that easy, somebody would already be doing it. It kind of assumes that you can find a player who would qualify as a good NFL kicker and a respectable (i.e. not bottom 5) NFL punter. Would the extra roster spot be more valuable in that case than an incremental upgrade at punter? I don't know...
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,370
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,370 |
Quote:
He was talking about in-game. If a team has a kicker/punter and he gets hurt you are screwed.
I took it as an in-game event. If you have a kicker or punter get hurt in-game, aren't you screwed for that game anyway? If you have a player get injured like that injured, you sign another player to replace them until the injury is no longer an issue anyway. In such cases, you have someone to either fill that role in the game or you take that role out of your game.
I don't think I follow the logic being used here. You just simply treat it as you would any other injury on the team. You go back to the fallback player or adjust accordingly.
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,445
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,445 |
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If it was possible someday would have thought of it and done it by now.
Is saving one roster spot really worth the potential disaster of having your kicker/punter go down during a game? Think about how many things that affects:
Field goals
PATs
Punts
Kickoffs
Onside Kicks
Not worth it. At all.
Yeah it would have to be a guy who almost never misses a game, and then have an emergency position player who could hit a 30 yard FG if needed. But you're probably right, why deal with all of that when you can just assign 3 of 53 roster spots to specialists (including long snapper) and be done with it?
If nothing else it's a good break from talking about the front office, QBs, and the #6 pick.
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