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Not really. The Pat Shurmur that started McCoy was "the last head coach [Holmgren will] hire" and "will be here for a long time," completely safe in his job. The Pat Shurmur that started Weeden was interviewing for his own job, until he got to the point where he was a dead man walking. Two completely different scenarios which will dictate two completely different mindsets of behavior and decision-making.
It's okay to admit that Shurmur wasn't qualified to be the water boy on the sidelines to say nothing of being an NFL head coach.
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...unless its Brandon Weeden.
Even if it's Brandon Weeden.
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The thing that bugs me about Weeden AND McCoy is that neither one of them is particularly dominant in any of the areas that I think are vital to being a good QB...
Russell Wilson has tremendous poise, he appears to never get rattled even in the face of an attacking defense and he is pretty accurate even under pressure... Luck has the smarts and the "clutchness" at the end of games, I know he threw a lot of INTs but from what I saw, he also tried to win a lot of games instead of safely trying to keep them close and he also made a lot more of the difficult NFL throws that most rookies don't even attempt... RGIII has tremendous evasiveness, great touch on the short balls and very good accuracy over the top and looks to be very good at reading a defense..
I look at Weeden and McCoy and think "Meh".. there are some things they do ok, some things not so well.. I think both still have a fair amount of room to grow, but nothing about them really makes me say "Wow, that's a strength that we can exploit and build our game plan around."
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It was the same with Quinn and DA...
If you could combine Weeden and McCoy into one QB you'd have an above average Starter..
We just never seem to get all the right traits in one guy...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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McCoy just lacks NFL tools. He was fools gold by a genius who thought he could pluck a nugget where nobody else saw one.
Were Weeden going to be 24 or 25 instead of 30, he might stand a chance to develop the game in a few years. As it stands now, his clock is nearing midnight. I sure hope that the combination of Turner's offense and Weeden's year of NFL experience are enough to get him to turn the corner.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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McCoy just lacks NFL tools. He was fools gold by a genius who thought he could pluck a nugget where nobody else saw one.
Which to this day I don't think was a bad gamble.. we needed a QB because DA obviously wasn't the answer, Quinn was in year 3 and didn't look to be the answer... the only "must have" QB in the draft was Bradford and we weren't going to get him, the QBs behind him, Tebow, Clausen were both not worth a first or second.. so they added some good defensive players then took a shot in the 3rd. I can't fault the theory at all.. as it turns out, Colt looks like a 3rd round draft pick QB...
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Do you think that if the Ravens win 9 or 10 games in Flacco's first two seasons, instead of 23, he gets two or three more seasons? I don't.
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Do you think that if the Ravens win 9 or 10 games in Flacco's first two seasons, instead of 23, he gets two or three more seasons? I don't.
Depends on how he would have played.
If the Rats defense was the cause of only winning 5 games a year, yet Flacco played nearly as well, yeah, I think he'd get the time.
Flacco came from a small college so they weren't expecting greatness right out of the gate. His rookie season was pretty strong, based on the confines they limited him to.
But now we're really going down the road of What-If's.
DC, I never liked the gamble of McCoy because they essentially handed him the job. I'd have been much happier had Holmgren gone out and found a veteran somewhere to take shots while they looked towards the next draft or somewhere else.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Do you think that if the Ravens win 9 or 10 games in Flacco's first two seasons, instead of 23, he gets two or three more seasons? I don't.
That's a seriously loaded question.. in Flacco's second year he had almost a 90QBR, 21 TDs and 12 INTs.. and a 7.2 ypa.. for them to have won 5 games, he would have had to play much worse.. so would he not get more years because of his play or because of his win/loss record?
Let me put it this way, if Weeden in his 2nd year puts up Flacco-like 2nd year numbers, I'll be pretty happy and I'll be surprised if we don't win at least 8 or 9 games.
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It's not loaded at all. A QB can have a good season and his team can finish with a poor record. Look at Cam Newton's numbers over his first two seasons: 59% completion, 7900 yards, 40 TDs, 29 INTs (1.38), 7.9 YPA, 85.3 passer rating and QBRs of 54 and 55. 13-19 record. If they hover around the 6-win mark he's no lock to stick around past his rookie deal.
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There is a big difference between your second year and the end of your rookie deal, which is usually 4 years before you start getting into option years..
But the answer to your question is yes, if Flacco put up those identical numbers but didn't win as many games, they would have stuck with him for a couple more years... His first 2 years were about 62% completions, 6600 yards, 35 TDs, 24 INTs... that's not bad at all.... might have fired Harbaugh, but that's a different story...... just like nobody in Carolina is calling for Newton's replacement, many are not bashful about saying that Rivera needs to start winning...
Let's see what Weeden would have to do to have numbers like that after this season..
He would have to complete about 67% of his passes, for 3300 yards, have 21 TDs and 7 INTs... People will be lining up to wash his feet if he can put up those numbers.
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you just answered your own question. i was just about to cite Cam Newton, but you beat me to it.
Cam Newton hasn't won many games, but Carolina has seen enough to stick with him as the unquestioned starter in year3 just as they did for year2.
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And if the Panthers win 6 games again next year, Rivera will probably be fired. And if the next coach doesn't turn it around with Cam right away, Cam's likely to be a goner as well. And he was a first-overall, immediate impact draft pick, not a developmental guy.
Immediate impact QBs are going to get four years to show that they can put up a winning record. Developmental guys are going to get two to three (~32 starts over that time period). That's the way it is when you look at the numbers. The simple fact is that nobody in the NFL is putting in the amount of time on a QB that people here are claiming Weeden won't get due his age, unless he produces in the win column.
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you are talking 64 games into his career though.
and, even in that scenario, if Cam puts up the same numbers he has so far, then he'll still get ANOTHER chance to start elsewhere even if he puts up 6-8 wins each of the next 2 seasons.
see Jay Cutler (Denver cuts bait after year4 where he never won more than 8 games and he goes to Chicago as an unquestioned starter)
=====================
if you have the tools and put up the stats, then someone is going to take a chance on you for their team.
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Cutler was traded after 37 starts with a 17-20 record. The Bears also spent far too much to get him, even without the benefit of hindsight, when you consider that they gave up two firsts, a third and a (mediocre) player, and took on the last three years of his rookie deal and extended him for two more years to the tube of something like $25-30 million.
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Cutler was traded after 37 starts with a 17-20 record. The Bears also spent far too much to get him, even without the benefit of hindsight, when you consider that they gave up two firsts, a third and a (mediocre) player, and took on the last three years of his rookie deal and extended him for two more years to the tube of something like $25-30 million.
you are changing the debate.
you asked if Flacco would have been given more time if he didn't win as much. the counter-point was that, yes, he would have if he showed he had the tools and had still put up the statistics.
2 great examples have been given so far to back up that point. Cam Newton (given by yourself) has put up the stats but failed to win thus far. Jay Cutler also put up the stats and failed to ever post a winning record for Denver.
The fact that Chicago was willing to give up that much just shows they were going all-in on him despite the lack of winning record. It's debateable if they gave up too much (he is 34-22 as a starter in Chicago), but the fact that they were willing to make that choice disproves your original point.
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We now have the obvious confirmed.
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The Newton and Cutler examples bolster my point. Newton (an immediate impact draft pick) will be gone or relegated to backup duty in another two years if the Panthers don't start winning. His window of opportunity is about four years, and hes halfway through. Cutler (a developmental/borderline impact guy) was dumped after 37 starts and a losing record.
That a different team took a chance on Cutler, and that one will take a chance on Newton if/when he's done in Carolina, is irrelevant to a discussion about how much time a QB gets to show the team that drafted him that he can produce wins. A developmental guy will get about two seasons' worth of starts. An immediate impact guy will get three or four seasons' worth.
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I don't know how you can put Cutler in a different category when he was a high 1st round pick as well. The fact that the Broncos received that bounty for Cutler sure should factor in IMO.
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Harbaugh: Alex Smith won't be released
Not surprising at all. Not sure if this is good or bad for Cleveland. I'm inclined to say bad, because if he was released there was no way he was coming here. Now there's a chance that we could do something stupid like give up draft picks for him.
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I will have a stroke if we trade for him.
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I don't really see how ya'll can argue a team giving up on a player and use Cutler as the example... he was a 25 year old pro-bowler when traded... he wasn't traded because he wasn't producing... he was traded because he didn't want to be in Denver any more and had a falling out with Daniels... he basically let his personality get in the way of his playing in Denver... I don't think it had anything to do with Denver thinking he didn't have the skills to be a great QB...
<><
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or this is just a smoke screen
it doesn't seem fair to Alex Smith to bring him back. most teams know they likely wouldn't do it (they could for 1 year I guess). so, I expect teams to call their bluff.
it just takes one over-anxious team looking at this year's draft QB crop to make a trade and SF knows it. Seattle also said they are listening to offers on Matt Flynn (as if they won't cut him if they cannot trade him).
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I don't know how you can put Cutler in a different category when he was a high 1st round pick as well. The fact that the Broncos received that bounty for Cutler sure should factor in IMO.
Cutler was never, to my knowledge, expected to be a difference maker from day one for the team that drafted him, like a Cam Newton, RGIII, Andrew Luck type of player, or even a Stafford or Bradford. I don't even recall him being talked about until he impressed at the combine, but to be fair that was eight years ago and I'm no draft guru. Maybe someone was touting him as being that good, but I don't remember it.
Either way, if you thought a guy was capable of being your franchise QB, would you give him up for two firsts, a third and Kyle Orton? That the Broncos gave him up tells me that they thought they could do better with someone else, whether it was Orton or someone brought in with one of those first-rounders, or maybe a guy on the market, but how often are franchise QBs hitting the FA market? Regardless, he wasn't their guy.
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I'll never understand why people (not this board) like Alex Smith.
It's like the mentality is to forget how much of a scrub he was before being surrounded by elite talent.
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I'll never understand why people (not this board) like Alex Smith.
I agree.
But still don't understand why people on this board like him. 
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He's a solid QB who can manage a game. He also has shown that he can lead and win games in the regular and post season.
Maybe Harbaugh got thru to him better than Norv did and showed him the light... either way he's proven himself to be a solid NFL QB starter and that is more than what we have in the cupboard.
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Cutler was never, to my knowledge, expected to be a difference maker from day one for the team that drafted him, like a Cam Newton, RGIII, Andrew Luck type of player, or even a Stafford or Bradford.
He was the 11th pick in the draft, signed a 6 year, $48 million dollar deal and was named the starter right away.
That - to me - seems like he was most certainly expected to be a difference maker from day one.
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Maybe someone was touting him as being that good, but I don't remember it.
Jaworski and Mortensen tabbed him as the best QB in his draft class.
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Either way, if you thought a guy was capable of being your franchise QB, would you give him up for two firsts, a third and Kyle Orton?
If he's at odds with the coach and doesn't want to be there ... yeah. You pretty much have to get what you can and move on.
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Maybe someone was touting him as being that good, but I don't remember it.
Jaworski and Mortensen tabbed him as the best QB in his draft class.
And Mayock.
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[Cutler] was the 11th pick in the draft,
Which does not necessarily mean that he was believed to be able to make an immediate impact.
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signed a 6 year, $48 million dollar deal
Commensurate with the spot in which he was drafted. I think we all understand how rookie slotting works.
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and was named the starter right away.
Not true...he didn't start until December 3rd of his rookie year.
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Jaworski and Mortensen tabbed him as the best QB in his draft class.
Fair enough. Like I said, I don't remember offhand.
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and Cutler replaced Jake Plummer (2nd round "developmental" pick) who had lasted 6 years in Arizona despite going 30-52 and was granted a 2nd chance to start immediately in Denver going 39-15  maybe we should be looking at starting QBs who had all the tools but struggled with their previous teams to win games. seemed to work out okay for Denver (Plummer) and Chicago (Cutler) though not ideal (neither ended up being elite).
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Man did the Broncos have a great draft in 2006 or what?  (even without a 3rd round pick) 1. Jay Cutler 2. Tony Scheffler: TE, 4 years w/ Broncos, 3 years w/ Lions 4. Brandon Marshall: 7755 career yards and 45 career TD ...... so far. 4. Elvis Dumervil: 63.5 career sacks 4. Domenick Hixon: decent 3rd receiver for the Giants 5. Chris Kuper: Has started 78 games at Guard for the Broncos 6. Grag Eslinger: Bust at C. lol He was with the Broncos for a year, and then with us, starting no games at all. Man ..... I wish we could have a draft that yields 3 definite Pro Bowl level talents at QB, WR, and DE/OLB pass rusher ......... another starter, and 2 useful backups ...... who would all have 7 year+ careers ......... That's just an amazing draft. (even though they traded away some, and lost others through free agency) I never ever even thought about what an amazing draft they had that year.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Who cares about all this other crap? We just had our first use of the phrase "smoke screen." It's officially draft time! Congratulations no logo: Quote:
or this is just a smoke screen
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Ravens, Joe Flacco's agent to meet
The Baltimore Ravens and the agent for Super Bowl MVP Joe Flacco are scheduled to meet Friday in Indianapolis in their first negotiating session since August, a league source told ESPN NFL Insider Adam Schefter.
The Ravens and Flacco's agent, Joe Linta, had been trading telephone calls in recent days to try to schedule the face-to-face negotiating session. Both sides will try to hammer out a deal before the March 4 deadline that teams have to use their franchise tag. If no deal is reached, Flacco is expected to be tagged.
Earlier this month, Ravens general manager Ozzie Newsome said he is optimistic that the team will get a long-term deal done with the quarterback. Flacco is not under contract for the coming season. The franchise tag, which would take the 28-year-old Flacco off the free-agent market, would take $20 million of cap space this season.
Newsome said Feb. 7 that the sides were close to a deal before the season began, but it was a mutual agreement to stop negotiations until the end of the season.
Flacco, who made less than $7 million last season, is expected to become one of the NFL's highest-paid quarterbacks. Drew Brees, at an average of $20 million per season, and Peyton Manning, who made $18 million last season, currently top the pay scale for quarterbacks.
ESPN
Does Baltimore need to make space before they sign him? Or can they sign him and they work to get under the cap?
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Maybe someone was touting him as being that good, but I don't remember it.
Jaworski and Mortensen tabbed him as the best QB in his draft class.
And Mayock.
And they were right ...
Vince Young
Matt Leinart
Kellen Clemens
Tavaris Jackson
Charlie Whitehurst
Brodie Coryle
Brad Smith
Ingle Martin
Omar Jacobs
Reggie McNeal
Bruce Gradkowski
DJ Shockley
Were the other QB's drafted that year.
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Quote:
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Maybe someone was touting him as being that good, but I don't remember it.
Jaworski and Mortensen tabbed him as the best QB in his draft class.
And Mayock.
And they were right ...
Vince Young
Matt Leinart
Kellen Clemens
Tavaris Jackson
Charlie Whitehurst
Brodie Coryle
Brad Smith
Ingle Martin
Omar Jacobs
Reggie McNeal
Bruce Gradkowski
DJ Shockley
Were the other QB's drafted that year.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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As of January 14th the Ravens had $15.7 million in cap space.
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Yeah, that was a big credibility boost in my eyes for mayock. That's why I remembered he was a big Cutler fan.
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As of January 14th the Ravens had $15.7 million in cap space.
Right. So can they sign him right now to a contract that pays him more that 15.7 next year, or do they have to clear the space first?
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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