DawgTalkers.net Forums The Archives 2013 NFL Season NFL Draft (2013) Jarvis Jones medically cleared

Sorry about that DJ I'll edit it out if I can. I thought I saw a few threads back saying you wanted Jones and another Georgia guy in 3rd round. Might have been a joke

Oh Derp, of course it was Turk

Pardon my blathering.

No problem

Toad, can't wait to see how Jones and Ansah will do in the NFL

I see lots of "quit/little urgency/little situational football awareness" in Jones' game, he's all about the sack and TFL, once the play has gone past the LOS, he goes into alibi-mode...he's pretty much the anti-Kruger...not the kind of of front 7 player I'd add

I don't see much pass-rush in Ansah at all. If he can't push his way to the pocket, he isn't getting to the pocket. Far-too often he was stoned by guys playing for the 3-9 Washington State Cougars, guys that aren't going to be seen in the NFL.

For my money Ansah is way too big a gamble at 6. His production doesn't match the hype as his rush-ability is very poor. All of his status is gambled on what he'll do in 3-4 years, and I see no natural rush tools to work with. He's slow using his hands to create space, and far-too often he tries a weak spin-move that does nothing but stop his momentum. Frankly, with technique that slow and that poor, I question his natural football and quick-twitch instincts. 4.5 sacks against the scrubs on the west coast is a red-flag of large proportion. He does have good strength and has a high-motor, but he was neutralized way too much by singular blockers for a guy who has this much hype around him. He doesn't shed well and nobody really knows what he'll do in space. We at least have tape on Jones and Jordan to know what they can do as true OLB's. I can make the argument that Ansah is great when it comes to measurables, but on the field when it's time to play against NFL players, he's going to disappear, making him a workout warrior of a sort.

Ansah would be the last of the "big 4" OLB prospects I'd take. In fact, if I were an NFL team, I'd bulk him up and put him at DE, not OLB. I'd even rather have an Okefor than Ansah if we're talking about a 3-4 OLB.

As an aside, I'm not including Moore into a group that would be called the "Big 5" until I see something good come out of his pro-day. He now has to earn his way back into the discussions because he proved true the questions about his character.

Teams drafting Ansah aren't taking him for what he is, because there is precious-little pass-rush production right now. They are going to hope that his freakish measurables translate into football results, and that's too big a leap of faith for me to take because even against sorry teams he was nothing close to dominant. Yeah, he passes the eye-ball test, but on the field he won't be able to get away with pushing around 3rd tier tackles who have no future in professional football. Ansah clearly has the highest chance of busting of the Big-4 and is, at best, 2-3 years away from being a bonifide starter in the NFL.

Ansah is going to go too high and I pray the Browns aren't the top-10 team to make the mistake on him. If we're going with an OLB, it needs to be Jones or Jordan.

Every MRI I have had done on my back has had vastly different readings ....... from almost normal to dozens of listings and sub listings of problems.

I have had MRIs re-read with vastly different readings, depending on what doctor read it. It's not that unusual.

See, that what happens when you don't watch tape

I'd love to know what Jones stats would have been if he had to play over 50% of his snaps at NT and over 75% at the LOS with his hands on the ground as a 3-4 DE ...he would not have even sniffed 10 TFLs and get owned even worse vs the run than he did at OLB, but that's jmho...otoh, what could have been Ansah's numbers if he was allowed to roam into the backfield on every play like Jones? Guess that doesn't make much of a difference in your evaluations...

The best part of your post is that at the end you turn around and pimp an OLB that had even worse stats and had more experience than Ansah (Jordan).....Toad you can make all the worst arguments in the world, but at least be consistent

As for getting blocked...well, everyone gets blocked, I've seen Jones get blocked 1on1 vs pretty much ANY position (FB, RB, TE, OT)...in fact, I haven't seen him defeat many blocks at all...he either runs by or it's over when someone gets a hand on him...now that's a football player

BOTH players lack pass rush moves, but to me it's more alarming that a player like Jones who has played at 2 big programms hasn't learned any yet, while Ansah got better with every game....

Can't wait for the outcome, this has Barwin vs Everette Brown pt 2 written all over it

FWIW

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/college_player_scouting_report.html&player=41114

STRENGTHS - Jones is an explosive athlete and when he anticipates the snap he can burst off the ball and has the speed to beat the OT around the corner. Despite lacking ideal bulk/weight, when he bull rushes aggressively he is a powerful bull rusher - His ability to rush with leverage and use his hands aggressively to jolt OT helps him play so strong. Although he almost never uses an inside pass rush move, when he wants to he can change directions fast and has an explosive burst to beat the OT back underneath. Unlike many undersized defenders, Jones does an excellent job of taking on run blocks with leverage and good hand use, which enables him to easily hold ground at the POA. He does an outstanding job of shedding TE run blocks and flashes ability to shed OT run blocks. On running plays away he consistently gets off the ball and inside backside block quickly and has the elite playing speed to chase down ball carrier in pursuit. When offenses try to pull the OL over him, he bursts into the backfield before the trapping OL can get to him and he makes the play behind the LOS. On running plays to his side of the field he does an excellent job of taking on run blocker with good technique, maintains outside force/contain, strings the play out, can shed and makes tackle.

WEAKNESSES - Despite flashing the ability to be an impact pass rusher, too often he is a non-factor rushing the QB. While he flashes rare initial quickness and the speed to get the corner, more often than not he does not burst off the ball and when he doesn't he cannot threaten as an edge rusher. He has a bad habit of stopping his feet and quitting on pass rush if his initial pass rush move is stopped. He is an upright and mechanical looking player when dropping off the ball into pass coverage. He is going to need a lot of work to become productive in pass coverage. Although he makes it look easy taking on and defeat TE run blocks, he only flashes the ability to defeat OT run blocks. Too often if an OT gets their hands on him they can tie him up and ride him out of the play, this is why he is best suited to playing OLB where he can align wider and deal more with TE blocks. His tendency to play high and bad use of hands to deal with low/cut blocks leads to him getting cut to the ground way too easily. Most concerning is that after suffering a neck injury during his freshman season at USC, he was not cleared to return to play at USC again, so it is unknown how he will fare when he takes NFL physicals.

SUMMARY - Unfortunately, Jones is one of the more disappointing players I evaluated this season because he just did not produce at a high level consistently. For a player who flashes elite explosiveness off the ball combined with the ability to make game changing plays, too often he disappeared and was a non-factor. Most effective when aligned wide in a 2-Pt Alignment, he fits best as an outside linebacker in a 34 scheme, but will need to improve playing off the ball in pass coverage to become a good all-around starter. If he is going to become a consistent pass rush then he must improve his get-off consistency and maintain leverage and aggressiveness when rushing the QB. Overall, Jones is definitely going to be drafted significantly higher than I have him rated, but I doubt he will ever become the consistent player that he flashes the ability to be. If he does not learn to pass rush with leverage and aggressiveness every snap, then he will never be consistent pressuring the QB at the NFL level because the OT's he will face at the next level are significantly better than those he faced in college. .

I wonder how any OLB would do if he played at NT and DE.

That's not the role of a LB.

Jones is a 3-4 OLB, who played OLB in a 3-4 at Georgia. He will almost certainly have to add some weight to play OLB in Horton's 3-4 ..... so he doesn't get wiped out by opposing OTs.

You bemoan him as a 1 trick pony for "only" being a guy who creates sacks and tackles for loss. He had 14.5 sacks and 24.5 tackles for loss. He had a total of 85 tackles, so he must have made a few down the field.

I look at a guy like Ahsah, and man is he raw. What is he going to be down the road when he has to learn extremely complex assignments? He won't be able to do "go get him" in the NFL.

He only had 4.5 sacks at BYU. He forced no fumbles. He had 1 INT. He had 62 tackles, He had 13 tackles for loss. He was far less disruptive overall that Jones.

I then look at BYU's schedule, and I am less than impressed. Washington State, Weber State, Utah, Boise State, Hawaii, Utah State, Oregon State, Notre Dame, Georgia Tech, Idaho, San Jose State, and New Mexico State.

A real murderer's row there.

2 of his 4.5 sacks came against Utah State. Wow. That's impressive.

Jones' best game might have been his game against Florida. He had13 tackles, 4.5 of those for loss. He had 3 sacks. He played big in a big game. He had 6 tackles, 3 for loss, plus 3 sacks, against Alabama. He had 8 tackles, 2 for loss, and 2 sacks against Nebraska. He played well in big games.

What would you consider to be Ansah's best game? What did he go in that game that impressed you?

I am watching Jones against Alabama. He is double teamed on a rush, and he still gets to the QB and caused a turnover. On another play he was left almost unblocked to the outside, while they ran back inside. Jones was still in on the stop, quickly seeing the play, and getting back to help stop the run.

I am amazed at how many times he is double teamed. he seems comfortable rushing from the left or the right side.

Man, this kid seems to get doubled on every play in this game. He got doubled and Bama ran to his side for a TD. He had a T and a TE on him on that play, if I read the numbers right.

He can get swallowed up by the OT on occasion. However, he also has speer to chase down plays that he appears to be out of.

He would almost certainly need to add 10-20 pounds to be an OLB in this defense, against the types of offenses we'll play. However, to say that he isn't a player is just not seeing what I see on the tape. He is quick to diagnoze when he is behind the LOS, adjusting to the run from his pass rush. There are times when the opposing team tries to suck him in on a rush and then get back to where he was. Is that player, or scheme? I think that it's just taking advantage of what the player is successfully doing against you.

Now I did see him fail to wrap up on one tackle attempt on the Bama RB ... and then the RB spun out of his grasp. (and 2 or 3 other Georga players) That was disappointing. I want to see guys wrap up on tackles, not just go for the big hit.

Watching Anash against Notre Dame, and it's obvious that he's a bigger LB type. He's more stout against the run, but I don't see the burst and immediacy in his game that I see in Jones. Jones explodes off the line. Anash has decent quickness, and better overall strength, but he lacks that explosiveness in the pass rush. Now I am comparing just one game to another player's one game, but I tried to take their most difficult opponents to be fair. Anash looks more like a run stuffing LB to me. He has solid quickness, but he's nowhere near elite in that department. To be fair, Jones isn't elite in that regard either, but he has far more explosiveness from what I can see. He is more disruptive on the opponent's side of the LOS. He often demands double teams in pass protection. I didn't necessarily see that against Ansah. Both guys seem capable of pursuing a play from the backside, and have enough speed to chase down a play to the other side.

If I want a pass rusher, I think that I go with Jones. If I want more of a 2 down LB, while giving up the explosive pass rush, then I might go with Ansah.

I think that I would take Jones and try to add 10 or so pounds to his frame. I think that he could handle that without losing his speed. I just don't know if Ansah can add explosiveness to his capabilities.

I would draft Jones before the commisioner can turn to leave the podium ... JMHO

You do realize that Ansah was by far the most impressive pass rusher at the SR Bowl when he actually was allowed to rush the passer standing up?...and that wasn't vs crap talent, was it?

Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to discuss stats when one player is playing the nose and the other was allowed to freelance all game. I get your point is that Ansah would be more of a conversion...and my point is that Jones, for a player already playing that position is as far away from playing it at NFL-level as Ansah is (in my opinion even further away), and that's disappointing to say the least...and I must have missed the double teams, especially in passing situation...in fact I saw most of his sacks being uncontested (often brainfarts or lack of athleticism by OT/TEFB/RB) or teh QB ran into him...he has what? 13-15 sacks? Feel free to show me 5 where he actually beats a man with a move or hands and go gets the QB...

Guess we disagree, but to my eye it's not even close: Ansah is clearly the better football talent: he owns Jones in: 1. play vs the run/stoutness, 2. motor/hustle, 3. situational football awareness (the precious little things), 4. coverage drops (he actually plays passing lanes, Jones does not care...I've seen a 4th Qtr pass right over his head in a 1 score game...IIRC it was his "great" Florida game,lol), 5. consistency...Jones is quicker, but isn't more athletic overall as size/speed is clearly going to Ansah too...again, for me it ain't even close, Ansah will be a much better pro...Jones DOES have great talent, I just don't think he's even close to his ceiling and I doubt a boatload of millions will motivate him further as the prospects of it haven't. Speed is all he has and that advantage-gap will be closed to a minimum in the NFL...he'll have to learn something new and I'd put my money on Ansah to do this, but not on Jones

I gave all the details you're asking for in this thread...I've reviewed both prospects on a play-by-play basis on multiple games, it's all in here (or in this forum) and I'll confidently stick to what I saw.

Btw, next time you trash a College, do your homework...Utah State was 11-2 and had a top 10 CFB Offense

Utah State also played in the WAC....

So? They beat Utah and a ranked SJST and lost by 3 at BYU and by 2 at Wisconsin as their only losses...not sure you paid attention, but they had a pretty good season

Anyway, was just pointing out the bad example given by YTown trying to trash Ansah

I didn't trash him at all. I am concerned about the fact that he has very limited experience, and that they played a much easier schedule that many other teams did.

Would you rather play Utah State and Note Dame, or Alabama and Florida? Seriously.

Out of those teams you just mentioned, San Jose State was the best one. Utah State played cupcakes.

You're right about it being a weak argument, than again we both like Ansah

Yep. Definitely. However, when a guy excels against top competition it makes it a little easier to project him to the next level.

my concerns on Ansah are that he wasn't as disruptive as I would have liked to see and that he is going to be raw.

as for being able to "go get 'em" in the NFL; that is what alot of DC's have their rookie pass rushers do (see Wimbley as one of the examples). Then, you start having them do more and more.

i'm really not sure who to pick out of this crop of potential OLBs though. they all have significant flaws and strengths.

Jc....



I still want no part of Jones. I went into this season high on him, and made a point to watch several of his games. He simply is a HUGE liability against the run, and teams actually targeted him in the run game because of his problems. He's a good pass rusher, but not special there either imo. This reminds me of the year everyone was on Everette Brown's jock, and a few of us got villified for calling out his issues. Jones is a solid pass rusher prospect, but he's not a three down difference maker...no way I take him before 20 much less pick 6.

Millner is the only real sure fire impact player this draft, but I am betting he goes 1. Ansah could be Von Miller or another workout warrior bust. Moore looked the best out of any that I saw play, but his combine killed him. Jordan looks like another guy that is decent but certainly not a difference maker or a top 6 talent.

This is a year to trade down more than any other I can remember. We have no 2nd round pick, and outside of Millner their isn't a true stud prospect at the top. The more I think about it Mour might be on to something....trade down and take Rhodes. If Millner is there it's a no brainer, but that just isn't going to happen. Jones/Jordan are probably our choices and neither do anything for me.

If Jones really has no health issues, he will go number 2 to JAX or number 3 to OAK as an outside LB a la Von Miller.

I chuckled a little when I said he will go number 2.

if I was stuck going to JAX, then I'd go #2 as well

As someone else mentioned earlier, I hope your right becaue that drops a good player to us that we can either draft ( Millner in my dreams) or use as trade bait (realistic best option imo).

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FWIW

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Which is very little when you cherry-pick one scouting report out of a dozen, but then again you always do what you're best at.

web page
Jarvis Jones:

Pros

Elite all-around athleticism. Has no limitations athletically
Explosive first step. Can beat his man right off the snap
Has the rare ability to bend and maintain full speed while edge rushing
Plays with power and violence. Has a very strong bull rush, and can drive his man into the backfield
Relentless. Does not take plays off
Uses his hands very well to knock down blockers arms and disengage
Effectively stacks and sheds blockers to make tackles on the ball carrier
Excellent blitzer. Times blitzes well, and works well up the middle
Proven commodity. Battle tested. 28 Sacks, and 44 TFL's past two years in SEC
Has the size and athleticism to play in 4-3 or 3-4 defensive scheme

Cons

Medical concerns about his "Spinal Stenosis". Was unable to get medically cleared at USC, which forced his transfer
Lacks experience in coverage. Exclusively rushed the passer in Georgia's 3-4 defense
Doesn't have the long frame many look for, and there are concerns about his arm length

Overall

Jarvis Jones is the best player in the 2013 NFL Draft. Ever since he stepped on the scene at Georgia, Jones has been arguably the most dominant player in college football. Over the past two seasons, playing against the top competition in the SEC, nobody has racked up more sacks (28) and tackles for loss (44) than Jarvis Jones. Athletically, there's isn't anything this kid cannot do. He's explosive with an elite first step, his speed and quickness is outstanding, and he plays with a great deal of power. Jones also has the rare ability to bend, and dip around the edge, while still maintainig his leg drive and explosion. This skill set, along with the fact he played in a 3-4 defense in college makes him very comparable to Von Miller. The only thing to worry about with Jones is his spinal stenosis medical condition. We know USC would not clear him to play, but many other schools including Georgia did clear him, and he has had no issues since. Jones is an elite prospect, and has the ability to make the same type of impact as Von Miller did, whether it's in a 3-4 or 4-3.

Are we done here with battling scouting reports, or do you wanna go with round two?

Jones is production, Ansah is upside.

Jones played in the SEC, akin to the NFL's developmental league, Ansah in the LDS Church's bible-study weekend league.

Jones is speed and disruption, Ansah is strength only.

Jones had 85 tackles, 24.5 for losses, 14.5 sacks, 7 forced fumbles

Ansah had 72 tackles, 13 for losses, 4.5 sacks, 1 forced fumble

If you like the gamble at #6 in an entire draft on very little production and go with possible upside, by all means, knock yourself out. I want the guy that gets into the backfield, disrupts plays, forces fumbles, and can naturally drop into coverage. I want the guy who has natural football instincts, and Ansah's instincts suck. He has great measurables but loses the ability to use them when engaged. He, like many before him, was able to overpower many of the kids on the college level, but when he gets to the NFL, where every Tackle is better than what he faced in college, he's going to have a major uphill battle which will take time at best, and never happen at worst.

As an aside, I watched the Senior Bowl. Rewatched it again just now. Ansah had a solid game but was far from dominating. He and every other LDE beat the kid from Wisconsin playing RT, who looked like he had no clue what he was doing, as he gave up a sack to someone else and held another guy after he was beaten. The fumble/sack on Nassib was a coverage sack for one, and the strip wasn't a true intentional strip. Nassib was bumbling around while holding the ball down by his knees.

The bottom line is that a team like the Niners don't pay Aldon Smith to stop the run. They pay him to rush the passer, and rushing the passer is the worst part of Ansah's game.

This reflects my feelings very well:

web page

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Overall

Besides Geno Smith, arguably the most polarizing player in the 2013 NFL Draft is Ziggy Ansah. Some people think he's the next JPP, while just as many think he's the next Vernon Gholston. Coming over from Ghana in 2008, Ansah was first a track star at BYU, who didn't join the football team until 2010, and hardly saw any action until this past year when BYU injuries opened the door for him. He exploded on the scene, playing DE, DT, NT, OLB, in pretty much every scheme you can imagine. Ansah's athleticism has people enthralled, he's as explosive as any pass rusher in the draft, he's a chiseled physical specimen, and with his length, he could make himself impossible to block. Ansah however, is nowhere near ready to be a consistent contributor in the NFL, and if you thought JPP was raw coming out of college, Ansah isn't even close to where he was. It's the yearly dilemma of the NFL Draft, do you go for the athleticism and upside, trusting you can coach the kid up into a star? Or do you steer clear and let him be somebody else's project? If you ask us, Ziggy is just a little too risky for our taste, and we'd rather have a consistent polished guy like Alex Okafor. Ansah's stock will be fluid all the way until draft with, as he could go as high as #6, or somewhere in the late teens.

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Cons
Lacks experience in coverage. Exclusively rushed the passer in Georgia's 3-4 defense
Doesn't have the long frame many look for, and there are concerns about his arm length

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I don't know Toad, does he have NO cons other than lack of experience and maybe not the body some look for?

That take makes it sound like he doesn't actually do ANYTHING wrong but is victim only to youth and body type (for some).

He HAS to DO something wrong! Other wise he's the perfect player and should go #1 overall since he can play in any scheme.

I'm not familiar with the draft/scout sites but the one you chose to display here seems to be looking the other way on Cons.

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Jones played in the SEC, akin to the NFL's developmental league, Ansah in the LDS Church's bible-study weekend league.

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LOL.....I might steal that. No, unless you just profoundly protest, I will.

I now live in SEC country and watch a lot of their games.

I have not dissected the video on Jones, but from what I saw--I was disappointed.

He does have great numbers. He does make some plays. However, I thought he often took himself out of a lot of plays and teams gashed Georgia's defense on his side of the field. He is a gambler. Not fundamentally sound.

I will watch video on him and give a report, but I can't help remembering that when I watched him during games this year.

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'Dub...that was the point.

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I forgot.

oh yeah... only that it read like it was written by a guy like me commenting on his favorite player rather than by someone with any real qualifications as a scout. Post up a better one.

We pick 6th and I believe we will have Floyd, Millner, Joeckel and Fisher going ahead of us. I think Jordan will also go before we pick. That leaves us probably with a decision between Ansah and Jones.

Toad I couldnt have said it any better myself brother. Good post. I for one am in the Millner camp but if hes gone and we cant trade down I think Jones is the best OLB prospect and best pick at 6. I also really like Orakpo if somehow we are able to get back into the top of the 2nd.

Django I see where your coming from on Ziggy. Great story, good measurables. He could turn out to be the best OLB in this class, or he could be out of the league in 5 yrs, but IMO hes a huge gamble and at 6 I wouldnt do it.

You do know his pro day was March 3rd.

nfldraftgeek

You've discredited yourself right there...might as well cite nfldraftcountdown Guess it took you a while to find some hobby crap site that has him at #1, lol (so much for cherry picking)

In case you missed it, the article I posted I even disagree with for the most part (especially the run defending part)...I have read other reports that have him ranked even lower (pay sites) and are far worse

Oh, and you still citing stats to compare Jones and Ansah in the face of hard evidence that they can't be compared due to where they lined up tells me exactly that you're not into honest debate...we will see 2-3 years from now

draftgeek, lol

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Vers and Big Willie. WHY would you guys want to pass on an OLB that can get to the QB and into the backfield and take a CB at 6?

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I think that we need good corners if we are going to run such an aggressive defense. It's imperative to have guys who can cover when you expose your defense by attacking so much. However, that reason is secondary to the fact that I think Milliner is a superior player to any of the edge rushers out there. I am not saying I am right. I am not asking anyone to agree w/me. I am simply stating my opinion.

I do find it perplexing and amusing how many people get bent out of shape over who we should take. Who cares if another person disagrees w/you? Really, what's the big deal? It's all speculative. I think it is cool to pimp your guy and provide reasons why we should draft him, but this talk about having no credibility because someone supports another player is absurd. The bickering is annoying. How about we just talk football?