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Wisconsin ALWAYS produces great OL-men, Fredrick would be worth a look see ... 
John 3:16 Jesus said "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
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Every 6-4,6-5 300lb hi-school player in the midwest now dreams of going to Wisc.
The rest of Big10 has some catching up to do.
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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I'm on borrowed computer time (sandy) so I do not study this draft as in past. So what I've seen I know...but a lot I don't have a clue on. I saw Long watching the college game n liked what I saw n through the season saw improvement.
Fisher saw him play...he can play LT n a starter.
But usually I see entire game film surfing the Internet. Now a days I just have time to post...actually got to run soon 
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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J / C
Am I missing something here? Greco is our weak link? Greco was ranked higher than Lauvuo and Pinkston, by the experts who do this for a living. I guess our experts on dawgtalkers know more than the experts!
Sure I want Levitre or Vaszquez to upgrade the position but if we dont get either one, IMO we are gonna be okay with Greco, Pinkston, and Lauvuo.
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Quote:
Every 6-4,6-5 300lb hi-school player in the midwest now dreams of going to Wisc.
The rest of Big10 has some catching up to do.
Not Urban Meyer, He is going after the 280lb OL-men that are Quick ... 
John 3:16 Jesus said "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
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Not sure if directed towards me but I said Pinkston was the weak link and that the line had tremendous improvement once Greco replaced him.
Am I perfect? No
Am I trying to be a better person?
Also no
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No it wasn't directed at you, I did post J/C to start my post.
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Am I perfect? No
Am I trying to be a better person?
Also no
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I can guarantee you that we have seen far more of Greco, Pinky and Lauvao than these "experts".
And they are ranked:
Lauvao
Greco
Pinkston
Lauvao is a good RG with the ability to be a very good RG. He needs to start showing that ability more, cutting down on mentals and cutting out the penalties altogether.
He's a much better athlete and player than the other two.
In an ideal world Greco would be a backup / injury replacement.
I never saw it with Pinkston. He may have played his last professional snap due to this setback.
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Just because someone gets paid to do something doesn't make them a professional.
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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Quote:
I can guarantee you that we have seen far more of Greco, Pinky and Lauvao than these "experts".
And they are ranked:
Lauvao
Greco
Pinkston
Lauvao is a good RG with the ability to be a very good RG. He needs to start showing that ability more, cutting down on mentals and cutting out the penalties altogether.
He's a much better athlete and player than the other two.
In an ideal world Greco would be a backup / injury replacement.
I never saw it with Pinkston. He may have played his last professional snap due to this setback.
Greco
Pinkston. seams to put himslf in position to make the plays. just doent seam to have the oomph to do it.
Lauvao slow and clumsy. any speed move and he is beat. does better than pink on the bull rush but thats about it.
jmo.
being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
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Quote:
Quote:
I can guarantee you that we have seen far more of Greco, Pinky and Lauvao than these "experts".
And they are ranked:
Lauvao
Greco
Pinkston
Lauvao is a good RG with the ability to be a very good RG. He needs to start showing that ability more, cutting down on mentals and cutting out the penalties altogether.
He's a much better athlete and player than the other two.
In an ideal world Greco would be a backup / injury replacement.
I never saw it with Pinkston. He may have played his last professional snap due to this setback.
Greco
Pinkston. seams to put himslf in position to make the plays. just doent seam to have the oomph to do it.
Lauvao slow and clumsy. any speed move and he is beat. does better than pink on the bull rush but thats about it.
jmo.
This must be the poster formally known as paydaman.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
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cutting down on mentals and cutting out the penalties altogether.
Yes That damn Lauvao had 8 penalty's last year for a 2.81 yards per game average. You would never see Mack or thomas make that many screw ups or mistakes in one season.
Oh wait Thomas had 8 penalty's for a 3.75 YPG average and Mack had 9 for a 3.75 YPG average. Man both of those guys must really suck.
Either that or people have no clue what they are talking about when they bash Shaun
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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cutting down on mentals and cutting out the penalties altogether.
Yes That damn Lauvao had 8 penalty's last year for a 2.81 yards per game average. You would never see Mack or thomas make that many screw ups or mistakes in one season.
Oh wait Thomas had 8 penalty's for a 3.75 YPG average and Mack had 9 for a 3.75 YPG average. Man both of those guys must really suck.
Either that or people have no clue what they are talking about when they bash Shaun
I think I'll go with the latter. Our Oline isn't the problem. do we need depth, I think so, but the starters are solid.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Quote:
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cutting down on mentals and cutting out the penalties altogether.
Yes That damn Lauvao had 8 penalty's last year for a 2.81 yards per game average. You would never see Mack or thomas make that many screw ups or mistakes in one season.
Oh wait Thomas had 8 penalty's for a 3.75 YPG average and Mack had 9 for a 3.75 YPG average. Man both of those guys must really suck.
Either that or people have no clue what they are talking about when they bash Shaun
I'm talking about 15 yard personal fouls. Do you have the information on that for Lauvao?
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I have the stats saved on my work computer and I will look it up when I get a chance. I was not bashing you bro (If my memory is still working lol I don't think you have ever been a basher of Shaun) But I think he had two of them last year, and one of them was a cheap bullcrap call. He did have a few in 2011 though.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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4 holding and 4 false starts for Shaun last year.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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He didn't have a personal foul last year?
And no I'm one of his biggest fans.
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I still see Long as a tackle prospect. He put up measurables comparable to what Thomas did back in the day. His feet aren't quite as good but far from bad. He will be at worst a starting RT. Probably a second rounder.
"If people don't occasionally walk away from you shaking their heads, you're doing something wrong." John Gierach
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I hope he does too, as I can't wait to rub Connor Barwin in to him on every post,as he used to ridicule me for a whole year for taking him in my mock in the mid 1st
guess the honeymoon n welcome is over... 
but if it makes you feel better go right ahead but I got news for you...Barwin is considered the weak link of that D...Did they TAG him btw (isn't he a FA) ...lol sort of just busting your chops...Saw him play a couple times n said...hey the kid is pretty good the poster who pimped him was pretty on target. I was surprised when the talking heads actually put him down as Not good enough to make up for the loss of Cushing. But if you wish to go back n renew old Discussions n beat your chest - so be it  get it all out now. I'm looking to start anew - If I had to do it over again with HIND SIGHT...got news for you bro...Barwin still not worth a mid round pick 
yeah, but Everette Brown was 
Just take it and eat it or I'll shove it to you for an entire year, just as annoyingly as you did and then disappeared from this board instead of eating your crow...we'll see the contract Barwin will get....Texans want to re-sign him, Pats and Colts already have shown interest and he'll be one of the first players off the market...
That said, good to have you back 
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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jc...
While it's nice to hear that Profootball Focus appreciates the effort of the Browns 2012 offensive line, ranking them as the 5th best Oline in the NFL is a bit "nuts".
Below are the 2012 offensive ranking in total yds & yds per game...passing yds & passing yds per game...rushing yds & rushing yds per game...points & points per game.
.....................tyds...yds/g...pyds..pyd/g...r/yd...ryd/g...pts....pt/g....
ranking..........#25.....#25.....#19.....#19....#24...#24.....#24...#24..
25 Clev.........5028....314.3...3435....214.7..1593...99.6...302...18.9..
These are not the kind of numbers a #5 ranked offensive line produces.
Granted, the Browns skilled position players were also young and inexperienced, lending to these offensive numbers, but to claim the Browns offensive line was the 5th best in the NFL last season is a stretch by any standard
The Browns 2012 offensive line was one of the youngest (in NFL experience) in the NFL averaging 2.2 yrs of experience at the beginning of last season. The OG position is still somewhat of a question mark as Pinkston struggled at LG last season before suffering a season ending blood clot, replaced by John Greco in the 7th week of the season.
The young Oline did progressively get better last season as they gained experience. While Greco does appear to be an upgrade over Pinkston at LG the Browns L & RG positions appear to be a weak link in the Oline.
Getting back to the Oline ranking...in my opinion, the Browns Oline played at a slightly better than average level, with #16 being average.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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This is an example of how stats got a bad name.
The Browns have Weeden, who held the ball longer than any qb in the league, other than Ben. But Ben moves around, buying time. Weeden sat there like a statue. The Browns did not have a guy like Manning who gets rid of the ball quickly, or a guy like RGIII, who can run around. We had a qb who made the OL look far worse than it was.
TRich danced behind the LOS. His lack of decisiveness was troubling. Hardesty hit the hole quicker, but he didn't play all that much. This is not Alabama and you aren't running behind an OL that completely dominates opponents. This is the NFL and you have to be decisive.
We did not beat too many teams deep. They didn't respect our passing game and stacked the LOS, especially early in the year. That will skew stats.
Our offense was predictable because we had to dummy it down for the slow-thinking Weeden. That hurts an OL.
Our version of the WCO hadn't really evolved like other WCO offenses. The Big Show thought his system was the end-all. It wasn't.
I think our OL was easily top 5. Again, New England is the only team that I saw that did a better job in pass blocking. Our run blocking was not as good, but nearly as bad as the numbers portray, due to the points I have listed above.
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Actually, Weeden started holding the ball longer for some reason as the year progressed. He actually got the ball out quite quickly much of the time, and was a huge improvement over the guy who held the job the year before. That guy held the ball forever, only to chuck it down to a covered receiver 3 yards away.
I do think that there was some "coaching" involved .... forcing both QBs into being more and more "careful" with the ball. However, Weeden still created far, far, far more big plays in the passing game last year than we had in any other year since DA's 2007 season.
Last year we had 48 pass plays of 20+ yards, and 6 pass plays of 40+ yards. The previous year, McCoy had only 26 pass plays of 20+ yards, and 5 of 40+. Weeden only threw about 50 more passes in 2012, by comparison.
Now there were some improvements in talent on the field that helped Weeden. However, he did manage to see when players were open in that short to mid range, and get them the ball in position to make a play with it. My disappointment with him was in passing the ball down the field. He was not as big an improvement in throwing the ball down the field as I had hoped. I do wonder just how much of that was coaching though.
The more time that passes, the less impressed I am with the whole Holmgren regime ...... and looking at how the team's usage of Cribbs changed, as one example, after Homgren left, makes me wonder just how much he demanded that the offense be what he wanted it to be, period. The team's refusal to use the shotgun might also be in this same vein. Holmgren/Shurmur wanted a QB who operates under Center. Period. That's not Weeden. I do expect him to be much more comfortable in an offense that allows him to work from the shotgun more often. Recently Pluto did an analysis regarding use of the shotgun in the NFL last year, and Weeden was in shotgun the 2nd fewest percentage of snaps of any starting QB, behind only Matt Schaub of the Texans. That tells me that this staff refused to alter their offense one iota to fut the talent they have. Hopefully that changes this year.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Just take it and eat it or I'll shove it to you for an entire year, just as annoyingly as you did and then disappeared from this board instead of eating your crow.
Speaks volumes on your character n insecurities as a poster...man just let it go.  As for Everett...yep In Feb. I was excited...I remember after the combine I dropped him from my possible draft picks n went on in another direction. But you an insecure poster will now in your own words use that as a format to discredit me???
Just like this year in Feb. I was excited about Warmack for LG (not many sure things in the top 5-10) but after the combine...he doesn't come close to justifying a ONE in Ten year talent at OG to get taken top 10. Telling you this so in 3/4 years from now you can claim that is who I WANTED in the 2013 draft. Don't worry - obviously you see me as some threat to post here. I'll leave after the Browns Chat Board is made...Thanks again for the NO WELCOME Sign here.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Why let one person decide where you will post?
Cripes, we all make mistakes on players.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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You had me lauging with the "threat", good one Must have missed the part with "good to have you back"  Anyway, I remember you trying to descredit everything I posted with "the one who wanted C.Barwin in the 1st, lol" kind of posts for a long, long annoying time...and now you can't take a couple of posts shoving Barwin's success to you? Cmon man Insecure huh? I wasn't the one who ran away from eating crow I'm actually pretty confident in my evaluations and welcome most of the gutsy posters back...it got so boring in here that I had to tease Toad out of his fence sitting and he's been exposed as a frog since Don't run away this time
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Cripes, we all make mistakes on players.
I really didn't see this about a football debate on players. Just somebody who is saying they will shove it down my throat that I am basically a coward as if I left cause of the subject matter. I was wavering on boards cause my time was getting less n less n it was hard to post on two boards. Then I got suspended so never came back not from some issue of making a mistake on a player.
I'm getting too old...I hate confrontation. I only wish to talk FOOTBALL especially about my beloved Browns. Thats all n I get some crapola about stuff that was discusses 3-4 years ago??? Hey I'm here n would like to post. Heck for all I know there won't be a Brown's Chat anymore. I'm not here for a Ping contest. I'd like to stay...but if it means confrontation at every turn...I'll move on so that I don't bring the board down n I get sick. Thats all Ytown...I've always had respect for you n what you have done with Dawgtalkers...anybody who asks me I tell them its a good place to post. I am getting to be an old dawg who just don't want confrontation...I more than welcome discussion...but not looking for fights. I'll try to be a good poster here. Whether I stay here or not...Depends on the next 2,4 6weeks or so??? Thats all.
So...in lieu of that...any talk about the OL? I think as usual I wrote a freaking book
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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any talk about the OL?
not much to talk about there. great that 3 different regimes have hit on their high draft picks for the OL (Thomas, Mack, Schwartz) and the 4th regime now gets to benefit from needing to find 1 OG (and let the other 3 battle for the remaining opening).
Vasquez is my favorite FA target because he played with Norv, is really good, but isn't getting the type of hype to think that he'll be a top paid OG. So, a 2nd tier pay but possibly 1st tier play. That's what I like.
#gmstrong
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I haven't done a thing with DawgTalkers ...... except post a whole lot. lol
As far as our OL, I think that we have a fine OL, and that the change in scheme will really have a positive impact on the overall OL unit, and the individual players.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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To get back to football :P lol I thought the 2 big negatives in the run game were Richardson dancing and horrible fullback play. Alex Smith tried but man he was lost most of the time.
The biggest hole in the offense is at the fullback position. Chud and Norv want and need a powerful fullback in their scheme.
In our pass blocking, experience together will help tremendously. Going more gun, 5 and 7 step drops shouldnt slow us down to much. Weeden couldnt make a quick read to save his life anyway.
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This is an example of how stats got a bad name.
I think our OL was easily top 5. Again, New England is the only team that I saw that did a better job in pass blocking.
vers...don't like the stats?
Stats do tell us something about a football team if they are used in a constructive way. Some fans may not appreciate the value of stats or the picture they paint if those stats do not support their agenda.
Vers...your agenda is obvious !
If you expect Browns fans to believe our Oline was top 5 in the NFL and second only to the Patriots in their pass protection, you better bring something to the table to prove it, besides just your opinion.
I know what I saw and my interpretation of the performance our young offensive line turned in last year seems to be much closer to other sources, than your interpretation. I'm unable to find one source that rates the Browns Oline as top 5, at anything.
If you have something to back up your claims, by all means, share it with us.
Just for the record...I'm not trashing our Oline ! I'm trying to be realistic about the performance they turned in last season. I expect the Browns Oline to continue to make progress, becoming the backbone for a strong running game and passing game, for years to come.
Fans do need to cut the Oline some slack next season (especially early in the season) as they "once again" learn another new offensive scheme. Hopefully this will be the last offensive system and playbook the Browns offensive unit has to learn, for a long time.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
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Vers has a witness to back up his opinion. Me. :P This was a top 5 offensive line. Once Schwartz and Greco settled in this line was very good. Most of the breakdowns in the pass game was either the RB/FB missing the block or miscommunication with Schwartz and Lauvao that happened from time to time and should have been expected.
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Once Schwartz and Greco settled in this line was very good.
and don't underestimate JoeT's injury that seemed to be bothering him early.
#gmstrong
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I haven't done a thing with DawgTalkers ...... except post a whole lot. lol
I know its PurplePeopleEaters (or more effectionately known as PP Eater...sorry couldn't resist) baby but associate you from the original board n here from day one. Also saw my first Browns Home game with you
Just some notes that I remembered in discussion.
Back to the OL...If Warmack came into the combine and ran like a 5.03 n looked more in shape. I thought he gave the new guys a tough decision. Take the SURE THING OL is one of the easiest n accurate evaluation for the draft. Or the plethora of raw/risk picks available. Its a Unit that probably is our best but do we take it to another LEVEL???
Long for OT...(Howie's son not Miami's FA) He has good feet but his in experience as an OLman is very low. If somebody takes him as an OT prospect...I like the kid but the development will not be seen over night. We are in the luxury of having both OTs locked up. He can start right away n upgrade our LG situation. Learn quick like Pinkston did mostly cause he is bracketed with Joe T n Mack!
Again if there in the 3rd I hope we jump on it. I'd think about 2nd but since we don't have one all I am thinking right now is Overall #6...then our 3rd round pick. Just was impressed with the kid n he reminded me of a Bigger ES.
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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I think that if we had allowed Trent to set up deeper, as he was used to, then we would have looked better as far as run blocking goes.
I think that we had problems as the year went on, but that was because Trent slowed down because of injury, and because Weeden wore down .... and got "coached" to death.
I think that our OL, overall, is a top 10 unit.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Back to the OL...If Warmack came into the combine and ran like a 5.03 n looked more in shape.
If he does better at his pro day will your opinion change?
#gmstrong
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,419 |
We need playmakers ...... not another OL.
We already have invested heavily in our OL ..... more heavily than most teams have. We need weapons, and difference makers. We need game changers. We need players who force the opposition to game plan to try and stop them.
That's what this team is missing. We have the OL.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,551
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,551 |
Shurmur I like the guy but he was horrible at working the run game. All those throws on 3rd and short takes away the dominate mentality that you want in your offensive line.
Now when you have injured ribs, it is hard to get low. That is probably a big reason for much of the dancing from Richardson, he just couldnt get low and squirt through the pile.
There were a few things that hurt the run game but run blocking by the OL, I really didnt have a big problem with. TE run blocking and FB blocking hurt a lot.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475 |
OL run blocking was a tough thing to evaluate. Our passing game was all short patterns even if we ran a Go, Post, Corner Post...rarely was it our Primary WR. This played right into our opponents Game plan against us. They had 8 in the box but also the two CBs pressing so they could come into the run D easily.
Teams had discipline on all the gaps. And most runs were Tackle to Tackle. Pinkston n Greco were terrible in the Power Pull to the right our design had them mostly trap blocking the Outside containment that would crash in once the run inside had commitment - Pinkston was very slow getting there n Greco simply was over powered or plain ole Missed the block. This was our standard power run to the right.
We mostly went left with miss direction or Cut back runs. I don't Lava did pull Power to the left but although he can most definitely improve was no where as inept as our LGs...why I insist that is where to improve. But mostly we were out numbered in the gaps. The power pull btw is a way to even up the numbers at the point of attack.
But 8 with CBs close by where outside containment could crash inside quicker. And then when we have a pass called we are doing a 3 yard crossing pattern or a Triangle set up 5...10...7 yards w/5 n 10 usually stacked. Simply put we never stretched the field with our passing game to relieve the congestion that was always the Defenses primary concern...Stop the Run!
Only the Bengals ran 7 in the box...they still were attentive to the run playing tight n stuff but they were the only team we faced that played regularly 7 in the box...and I thought we had nice flow in those games especially with Trent.
Speaking of Trent n the dance...well yes we had that congestion n it was more than normal NFL stuff. But also he had those broken ribs. I saw him a little less decisive than he was before the ribs.
I think if we get a good Vertical stretch...the running game n Run Blocking will be much easier to evaluate. Who wins their battles, who can get to the 2nd tier so on n so on.
A lot of analyst will look at the stats n say Good Pass blocking but have problems run blocking. Can we improve? Heck yeah. All indicative of the OL run blocking??? I think they were doomed from the get go.
FB could of helped. I think going spread n get teams into Nickel n expect a pass all the while we run Trent would have helped more. Two TE with Smelley. Don't get me wrong...Marecic got benched for most the season for a reason!
I just thought we had NO imagination for our running game as for play book. Not enough miss direction and just not enough play action in our passing game (on running downs) . Shurmur or Holmgren??? I thought it very very odd after Holmgren left Game #29 for Shurmur we had our first plays of Wildcat with Cribbs. Made me think...is this lousy O all on Shurmur or was it forced on him???
Still Stats could Lie in that regard. I thought our pass blocking was pretty real. I thought our run blocking can definitely improve with talent n play design...but was it as bad as the stats show? Teams just attacked every GAP n had all expecting the run on downs 1 n 2.
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,517
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,517 |
There it is in a nutshell.
Lining up in an I without a decent FB is nothing more than an exercise in futility.
Marecic was flat out horrible and Smith was too damned slow and upright to the hole.
Note to Ballpeen;that's why you don't line up a guard at FB,it takes them forever to get to the line.
A good FB,a healthy TR and this team can slug it out with the best D's.
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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