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All that I can say is what in the hell is wrong with this world? To sit and watch someone die because there is a no CPR policy? The 911 call is disturbing. I hope there is more to this story. If there isn't I hope this facility is sued to the point of being closed and the woman who called 911 is ridiculed to the point of insanity. Why even have a "nurse". Might as well pay a bum to sit in there. I cannot believe the response to "This is a human being - can you find someone to perform CPR" is "Not at this time". What the hell. I understand that the nursing home is worried about getting sued, but to sit and watch someone die? How cold of a heart do you have to have to be as calm as the woman on the phone was that refused to help? I'm speechless. No CPR policy takes heat
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Did the patient and or family sign a dnr do not recussicate instruction?
If its their last wishes, then that is normal. Especially if they are on hospice.
Sorry, I did not read the link.
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Quote:
Did the patient and or family sign a dnr do not recussicate instruction?
If its their last wishes, then that is normal. Especially if they are on hospice.
Sorry, I did not read the link.
The audio to the 911 call is a part of the link. No mention of a dnr; just a statement that this is the policy of the home. Maybe everyone in there is dnr as part of the agreement. I surely hope that is the reason as if that is the case I have no problem with it as I'm sure the people entering into this home are well aware of that.
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Slightly misleading title, the issue people have here is the policy, everyone did what they should have. Families are made aware of this policy beforehand, not sure if its an insurance thing or what.
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Isn't there some kind of law prohibiting good Samaritans from being sued if they attempt CPR?
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Quote:
Slightly misleading title, the issue people have here is the policy, everyone did what they should have. Families are made aware of this policy beforehand, not sure if its an insurance thing or what.
Could you sit there and watch someone die because of a policy? There is no way that I could.
And the title is not misleading. She refused to perform CPR and the lady died, policy or not. She even refused to find someone who would that didn't work there. That is one cold hearted woman IMO.
Last edited by columbusdawg; 03/05/13 07:29 AM.
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Was she trained in how to perform CPR? Was she actually a "nurse"? The term "nurse" seems to get thrown around very easily. Places like this assisted living facility usually have "personal care assistants" caring for the residents, and not actual nurses.
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Quote:
Was she trained in how to perform CPR? Was she actually a "nurse"? The term "nurse" seems to get thrown around very easily. Places like this assisted living facility usually have "personal care assistants" caring for the residents, and not actual nurses.
That isn't the point. The 911 operator was willing to talk someone through it. I don't know CPR and I would have gladly listened to the 911 operator as to how to perform it. I would just not be willing to stand by idle while someone needed help. I can't believe how many people seem to be OK with this.
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My wife, an RN, was appalled at this story.
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Quote:
Isn't there some kind of law prohibiting good Samaritans from being sued if they attempt CPR?
Yes, it's called the Good Samaritan Law. if your attempt is to help not injure and it's clear that's the case, they you are in the clear (paraphrasing) I had that happen here to me.. 90 year old man, was walking, fell flat on his face I was out walking my dog and ended up carrying him to his home and made sure he was ok.. one of my other neighbors told me that I should have just let him alone there because I could have been sued.
I also understand that not every state has that law on the books.. Ohio does, Florida does,, not sure about the rest.
My feelings are, if you see a person in distress and you don't help, you are a dog.
Last edited by Damanshot; 03/05/13 09:19 AM.
#GMSTRONG
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I am not "okay" with this. I am trying to understand what the reasoning was behind this person's actions, or lack of actions. I guess I find it hard to believe this person just did nothing without some kind of explanation behind it. I am an RN, and I have saved lives, and will continue to do so. I myself would never stand by and watch anyone suffer and possibly die without doing everything in my scope of practice to save them(as long as it is their wish).
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when my grandma was in the nursing home, we had a DNR on her. she had no idea who she was or where she was and she had been in the nursing home for a couple years
when she was actually dying, the nurse wanted to help her. my mom said no, don't. so the nurse had to stand there and watch her die.
and we as a family were ok with that
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The difference there being it was what the family or the resident wanted. In this case the nurse was calling 911 for assistance.
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Quote:
Quote:
Isn't there some kind of law prohibiting good Samaritans from being sued if they attempt CPR?
Yes, it's called the Good Samaritan Law. if your attempt is to help not injure and it's clear that's the case, they you are in the clear (paraphrasing) I had that happen here to me.. 90 year old man, was walking, fell flat on his face I was out walking my dog and ended up carrying him to his home and made sure he was ok.. one of my other neighbors told me that I should have just let him alone there because I could have been sued.
I also understand that not every state has that law on the books.. Ohio does, Florida does,, not sure about the rest.
My feelings are, if you see a person in distress and you don't help, you are a dog.
I'd surmise that the facility informs prospective employees of this policy when they are hired, as well as informing them of consequences of NOT adhering to it. So, these people accept this position when they take the job.
My guess is that those that can, will move out of there to another facility as soon as they can. The rest knew of and accepted the policy when they moved in (though, they may be second-guessing that choice now).
Browns is the Browns
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jc again
It says there was a dnr on file. If there is a dnr then you do not resussicate. You let them pass away. That is the way it's done. I'm certified as a CNA, did clinicals in a nursing home, and that's what we were taught. Nobody did anything wrong.
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Agreed. DNR mean DNR. Though I doubt they checked her file before dialing 911.
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Yeah, it sounds like the media is overdramatizing a story, imagine that. People die in nursing homes all the time. Nurses and staff don't get to make decisions about who lives and who dies. You follow the standards of care, and if there is a dnr you don't touch them. It isn't cold or cruel. Many people don't want to be revived. These are people who are at the end of their lives, and often incapacitated or terminally ill. Nursing homes are extremely unpleasant places to live. Their last wishes should be followed. I'm fairly certain a dnr is a legally binding agreement anyways.
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I guess my old butt needs to know of the policies of a place before I go faking a heart attack in front of a hot nurse to get mouth to mouth.
On the serious side of this story.... What were the policies of an Ambulance service ?
Seems if you are willing to stay at a place that policies state no CPR will be given, then do you have the choice of EMT services ?
The Nurse calling 911 makes it appear that an Ambulance could have been dispatched to the facility... If not,then 911 should not even of been called.
I'm not sure if the 911 operator should not have reacted in the manner she did..
The lady was 87 years.. What really would have been gained by using CPR, It was her choice to stay there. Knowing her emergency medical actions were limited.
My ex wife is a Hospice Nurse, We have had many discussions on this type of topic.I come from a family that believes in the DNR in the right circumstances. Factoring age, and result of quality of life if resuscitated.
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Quote:
jc again
It says there was a dnr on file. If there is a dnr then you do not resussicate. You let them pass away. That is the way it's done. I'm certified as a CNA, did clinicals in a nursing home, and that's what we were taught. Nobody did anything wrong.
If there was a DNR why even call 911? That was the mistake that was made then. I have no problem at all if there was a DNR.
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Quote:
Could you sit there and watch someone die because of a policy? There is no way that I could
I could if it was the policy of my employer and was contingent on my further employment, again I seriously doubt this was a policy tenants and families were not made aware of.
The reason I think the title is misleading, is because it paints the nurse as being reckless, and not doing her job.
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Quote:
Quote:
Could you sit there and watch someone die because of a policy? There is no way that I could
I could if it was the policy of my employer and was contingent on my further employment, again I seriously doubt this was a policy tenants and families were not made aware of.
The reason I think the title is misleading, is because it paints the nurse as being reckless, and not doing her job.
It was pointed out there was a DNR above as well. A couple of things though - if it was policy why even call 911? If there was a DNR why call 911? As I first stated I hoped there was more to this and there appears to have been in the form of a DNR.
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j/c Spokesman says woman who refused to give CPR to dying 87-year-old wasn't a nurse Published March 05, 2013 FoxNews.com Authorities are launching a criminal investigation into the death of an 87-year-old woman who was denied CPR at a California independent living home by a woman who identified herself to a 911 dispatcher as a nurse – but the facility now says she isn’t one. During the call last Tuesday, an unidentified woman called from her cellphone, and asked for paramedics to be sent to help Lorraine Bayless, who collapsed in the dining room of the independent living building in Glenwood Gardens in Bakersfield. Later, a woman who identified herself as the nurse got on the phone and told dispatcher Tracey Halvorson she was not permitted to do CPR on the woman. But a spokesman for Brookdale Senior Living, which owns the Glenwood Gardens facility where the incident happened, told the Los Angeles Times that the woman was “serving in the capacity of a resident services director, not as a nurse." Christopher Finn, the spokesman, would not comment on whether or not she was licensed as a nurse. Halvorson urged the woman to start CPR, warning the consequences could be dire if no one tried to revive the woman, who had been laid out on the floor on her instructions. She said one of the home's policies prevented her from doing CPR, according to an audio recording of the call. "I understand if your boss is telling you, you can't do it," the dispatcher said. "But ... as a human being ... you know, is there anybody that's willing to help this lady and not let her die?" "Not at this time," she answered. Halvorson assured the staff member that Glenwood couldn't be sued if anything went wrong in attempts to resuscitate the resident, saying the local emergency medical system "takes the liability for this call." Later in the call, Halvorson asked, "Is there a gardener? Any staff, anyone who doesn't work for you? Anywhere? Can we flag someone down in the street and get them to help this lady? Can we flag a stranger down? I bet a stranger would help her." "I understand if your facility is not willing to do that. Give the phone to a passer-by. This woman is not breathing enough. She is going to die if we don't get this started, do you understand?" The woman had no pulse and wasn't breathing when fire crews reached her, said Battalion Chief Anthony Galagaza of the Bakersfield Fire Department. The executive director of Glenwood Gardens, Jeffrey Toomer, defended the staff member in a written statement, saying she followed the facility's policy. "In the event of a health emergency at this independent living community, our practice is to immediately call emergency medical personnel for assistance and to wait with the individual needing attention until such personnel arrives," Toomer said. "That is the protocol we followed." Toomer offered condolences to the woman's family and said a thorough internal review would be conducted. He told KGET-TV that residents of the facility are informed of the policy and agree to it when they move in. He said the policy does not apply at the adjacent assisted living and skilled nursing facilities. Multiple calls to the facility and its parent company seeking more information were not returned. Bayless lived in the independent living building of the facility, which state officials said is like a senior apartment complex and doesn't operate under licensing oversight. Unlike nursing homes, which provide medical care, independent living facilities generally do not. "These are like apartments for seniors. You're basically living on your own. They may have some services provided by basic nursing staff, but it's not their responsibility to care for the individual," said Dr. Susan Leonard, a geriatrics expert at the University of California, Los Angeles. Residents of independent living communities can still take care of themselves, but may need help getting to doctor's appointments. In skilled nursing facilities and nursing homes, many residents require around-the-clock care. Staff members are "required to perform and provide CPR" unless there's a do-not-resuscitate order, said Greg Crist, a senior vice president at the American Health Care Association. Bayless did not have such an order on file at the facility, Galagaza said, whose fire department was the first on the scene. That's when firefighters immediately began CPR, continuing until she reached the hospital. Dr. Patricia Harris, who heads the University of Southern California's geriatrics division, said the survival odds are slim among elderly who receive CPR. Even if they survive, they are never the same. She said she would override the home's policy and risk getting fired "rather than watch somebody die in front of me." Sgt. Jason Matson of the Bakersfield Police Department said its investigation so far had not revealed criminal wrongdoing, but the probe is continuing. First responders say often it's hard to find someone willing to provide CPR in an emergency. "It's not uncommon to have someone refuse to provide CPR if they physically can't do it, or they're so upset they just can't function," Kern County Fire Department Deputy Chief Michael Miller said. "What made this one unique was the way the conversation on the phone went. It was just very frustrating to anyone listening to it, like, why wasn't anyone helping this poor woman, since CPR today is much simpler than it was in the past?" The harrowing 7-minute, 16-second call also raised concerns that policies at senior living facilities could prevent staff from intervening in medical emergencies. It prompted calls for legislation Monday to prevent a repeat of what happened at Glenwood Gardens. "This is a wakeup call," said Assemblywoman Mariko Yamada, chair of the California Assembly Aging and Long-term Care Committee. "I'm sorry it took a tragedy like this to bring it to our attention." Yamada cautioned that while it's not yet known whether intervention would have saved the woman's life, "we want to investigate because it has caused a lot of concern and alarm." Independent living facilities "should not have a policy that says you can stand there and watch somebody die," said Pat McGinnis, founder of California Advocates for Nursing Home Reform, a consumer advocacy group. "How a nurse can do that is beyond comprehension." In all her years of advocating for the elderly, McGinnis said: "This was so horrifying. I've never seen this happen before." The Associated Press contributed to this report. http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/03/05/spo...test=latestnews
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I've performed chest compressions on an elderly female patient that I wish had had a DNR order. Lets just say compressions in real life are very different from what you see on TV. Feeling ribs break under your weight (frail 85+ year old female) as you try to revive an already dead geriatric patient is no fun. I was so glad to see the paramedics show up.
Hey folks, as a nurse of 15 years, get your crap together and have a plan for unfortunate times. Be realistic about where you're parents are in their quality of life and act accordingly. Are chest compressions and broken ribs in your 90 year old stroked out loved one what you really want? If not get the DNR papers in place. Don't wait out of denial or your own fears of mortality. We're all going to die. Get over it.
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Quote:
Hey folks, as a nurse of 15 years, get your crap together and have a plan for unfortunate times. Be realistic about where you're parents are in their quality of life and act accordingly. Are chest compressions and broken ribs in your 90 year old stroked out loved one what you really want? If not get the DNR papers in place. Don't wait out of denial or your own fears of mortality. We're all going to die. Get over it.
Great advice. 
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Criminal charges SHOULD (but probably won't) be forthcoming.
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Quote:
Criminal charges SHOULD (but probably won't) be forthcoming.
Why should they? What law was broken?
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It prompted calls for legislation Monday to prevent a repeat of what happened at Glenwood Gardens.
Something happened... it doesn't seem right to some people who may or may not even fully understand what happened... so let's make a new law to make sure nothing like this ever happens again..... 
God I hate governments obsession with trying to "fix" every single thing that happens by enacting a new law....
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God I hate governments obsession with trying to "fix" every single thing that happens by enacting a new law....
no, they only try to fix things that make CNN's headlines list. so, whoever has control of that list is the real power player in this country 
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Quote:
Quote:
Criminal charges SHOULD (but probably won't) be forthcoming.
Why should they? What law was broken?
I cannot say. I'm not up on California law (or the laws of most any state) but it seems to me that negligent homicide could come into play.
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Criminal charges SHOULD (but probably won't) be forthcoming.
Why should they? What law was broken?
I cannot say. I'm not up on California law (or the laws of most any state) but it seems to me that negligent homicide could come into play.
I'm sure whatever law they got the Seinfeld cast on. 
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Criminal charges SHOULD (but probably won't) be forthcoming. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Why should they? What law was broken? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I cannot say. I'm not up on California law (or the laws of most any state) but it seems to me that negligent homicide could come into play. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm sure whatever law they got the Seinfeld cast on. People! It's Calixxxxxxfornia, 89.9% voted for Barry, what do you expect? 
GO BROWNS!
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jc Quote:
SACRAMENTO, Calif. — SACRAMENTO, Calif. (AP) — Relatives of an 87-year-old woman who died after a nurse at her retirement home refused a 911 dispatcher's pleas to perform CPR expressed satisfaction with the care she received, saying her wishes were to die naturally. Meanwhile, the company that owns the facility now says its worker failed to follow proper procedures.
Lorraine Bayless' death last week at Glendale Gardens, a Bakersfield independent living facility, prompted outrage after a 7-minute recording of the 911 call was released. Brookdale Senior Living, which owns the facility, initially said its employee acted correctly by waiting until emergency personnel arrived. But late Tuesday, it issued a new statement saying the employee had misinterpreted the company's guidelines and was on voluntary leave while the case is investigated.
"This incident resulted from a complete misunderstanding of our practice with regards to emergency medical care for our residents," the Tennessee-based company said.
Shortly before Brookdale's clarification, Bayless' family sent The Associated Press a statement saying she was aware that Glenwood Gardens did not offer trained medical staff, but opted to live there anyway.
"It was our beloved mother and grandmother's wish to die naturally and without any kind of life prolonging intervention," the family said. "We understand that the 911 tape of this event has caused concern, but our family knows that mom had full knowledge of the limitations of Glenwood Gardens and is at peace."
The family said it would not sue or try to profit from the death, and called it "a lesson we can all learn from."
"We regret that this private and most personal time has been escalated by the media," the statement said.
Bayless collapsed in the Glenwood Gardens dining hall on Feb. 26. Someone called 911 on a cellphone and asked for an ambulance. Later, a woman who identified herself as a nurse got on the line and told dispatcher Tracey Halvorson she was not permitted to do CPR on the woman.
Halvorson implored the nurse to find someone else and said she would instruct them on how to do the procedure.
"I understand if your facility is not willing to do that," Halvorson said. "Give the phone to a passer-by. This woman is not breathing enough. She is going to die if we don't get this started, do you understand?"
By the time paramedics arrived, Bayless had stopped breathing.
Bakersfield fire officials who responded said Bayless did not have a "do not resuscitate" order on file at the home. The family and the company have not commented.
Glenwood Gardens is an independent living facility and as such Brookdale has said that by law it is "not licensed to provide medical care to any of its residents." But it added later that it was reviewing company policies "involving emergency medical care across all of our communities."
The woman who identified herself as a nurse was employed at the facility as a resident services director, the company said.
Bayless' death has prompted multiple investigations.
Bakersfield police are trying to determine whether a crime was committed when the nurse refused to help even find someone to perform CPR. The Kern County Aging and Adult Services Department is looking into possible elder abuse and the state Assembly's Aging and Long-term Care Committee is investigating to see whether legislation is needed.
The nation's largest trade group for senior living facilities has called for its members to review policies.
"It was a complete tragedy," said Maribeth Bersani, senior vice president of the Assisted Living Federation of America. "Our members are now looking at their policies to make sure they are clear. Whether they have one to initiate (CPR) or not, they should be responsive to what the 911 person tells them to do."
The California Board of Registered Nursing is concerned that the woman who spoke to the 911 dispatcher did not even respond to requests to find someone who might want to help.
"If she's not engaged in the practice of nursing, there's no obligation (to help)," agency spokesman Russ Heimerich said. "What complicates this further is the idea that she wouldn't hand the phone over either. So that's why we want to look into it."
http://xfinity.comcast.net/articles/news-national/20130306/US--No.CPR-Woman.Dies/
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Things are messed up.
First, she was a nurse, following the facility's protocol.
Then, the facility said they would defend the nurse.
Then, she wasn't a nurse.
Then, the lady had a dnr.
Then the lady didn't have a dnr.
Now, it's not the facilities protocol.
Charges should be filed.
Charges shouldn't be filed.
What IS going on?
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Same thing that always goes on... reporters rush to report without full information, people for these agencies and firms answer questions and give statements before they have full information... then eventually the truth gets out but by that time there is so much misinformation that its hard to tell the truth when you hear it.
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That's one of the problems with the "connected 24/7" society we have become. I need to know, and I need to know NOW! Forget the facts, tell me what you know NOW!
Just this week a guy, in Toledo, ran into the rear of a pickup on 475. (Ohio Dept. of Transportation truck - they were picking up trash) It was reported the guy was texting while driving.
Came from an "eye witness"........who turned out to be the driver of a semi that the guy passed. The driver of the semi said "the guy wasn't speeding, but he was pre-occupied with his phone".....so, instantly, the news was "texting driver dies after hitting parked pickup."
Well, but.....wait. Maybe he wasn't texting while driving. That's what we're hearing now. The OHP (ohio highway patrol) is saying they found part of a phone near the crash site. They don't even know if it was the drivers phone.
The daughter of the driver says "dad had a flip phone. He didn't even know how to text - he only got the phone so he could be gone from home but still have contact with his dad, who lived at his house."
Then we hear "the driver that died MIGHT have been texting."
Then we hear "the OHP is thinking about checking phone records to see if the driver was even on the phone."
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Nurse refuses to perform CPR in
retirement home, woman dies
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