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assuming these reports are accurate, this shows the front office has zero urgency in winning NOW. They have no problems losing a couple of winnable games this season in order to save $2-3 million.
I honestly don't think it had anything to do with money. It had to do with him being 38 years old.
As Peen said, who's to say the next kicker can't do the job as well or close to as well?
I don't think you replace a Dawson from a personality and class standpoint but as a kicker, he may have another year or two, but that's probably it.
If Banner and Haslam are to be believed, they want to build a winner, not just this year but something that has substance and staying power year after year.
in all honesty, you don't do that with 38 year old players.
Ya just don't.
No, I don't think Money saved had anything to do with it.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Legend
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....I like kickers, having done it myself, but you are assuming the next guy we get can't make kicks.
How's your accuracy in a cross-wind? Do you need an agent? 
Ask Mark Moseley, Jeff Jeager, Brett Conway, Brian Franco, Jerry Kauric, and Sam Baker about that 
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Legend
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Well at least now in the Sunday chat room the talk will switch from, "if we only had Vickers", to Dawson.
A nice change of pace.
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Legend
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Why the hell would Banner tap-dance around the question?
Oh please he tap dances around every question. The SOB never answers any any question unless it's it's three years later and he is proven to be correct (which doesn't happen very often)
GM...you notice that too?
Banner talks alot, but rarely says anything and never answers a question directly. He simply talks questions to death with so much BS that when done, you ask yourself, what the hell does that mean?
In Philly, Banner was not the face of the franchise or the guy in charge of discussing personnel moves...Andy Reid was. Here in Cleveland, Banner made himself the focal point for all things football, when he hired the NFL's talk show host, Mike Lombardi and gave him the GM title.
Here in Cleveland, Banner is trying to sell himself to the media and fan base as this great evaluator of football talent. But some are beginning to question Banner's judgement and are no longer impressed with Banner's 50 word answer to "yes" or "no" questions.
The San Francisco 49ers, one of the very best teams in the NFL with undoubtedly some of the very best talent evaluators in the NFL, took one look at 38 year old Dawson, who is coming off his best year and the 49ers scooped him up.
In Cleveland, the Browns talent evaluators of Joe Banner and Mike Lombardi looked at 38 year old Dawson, who is coming off his best year and kicked him out of Cleveland without even offering him a contract.
QUESTION FOR ALL...would you rather have the management team and talent evaluators of the 49ers....or what we now have in Cleveland?
I rest my case !
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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Practice Squad
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I can give some examples of the 49ers management team and talent evaluators signing some players that didn't work out for them at all if you would like Mac. After all FA is a gamble just like the draft. Dawson may do very well for them. But then they thought Akers would do well for them as well didn't they.
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2nd String
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(_____) talks a lot, but rarely says anything and never answers a question directly. He simply talks questions to death with so much BS that when done, you ask yourself, what the hell does that mean?
Hmmm.... pot to kettle?
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~ Legend
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Word on the inside is that - Dawson wanted to stay here. But he wanted a long term contract. 2011 tagged wanted a 5 year contract. 2012 tagged wanted a 4 year contract. This year wanted a 3 year contract.
Then why did he sign a one year deal that quickly if he wanted a longer contract?
One guess- maybe that's all he got.
I'd assume it's not easy to sell your self for 3 years at the age of 38.
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Dawg Talker
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The guy has wanted to leave for three years, everybody needs to get over it. The hate for this FO is ludicrous. At least wait until the team is set and games are played. What a bunch of whiners. 
#gmstrong
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The guy has wanted to leave for three years, everybody needs to get over it.
Exactly. If he wanted to stay here so badly, we wouldn't have had to franchise him.....twice.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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The guy has wanted to leave for three years, everybody needs to get over it.
Exactly. If he wanted to stay here so badly, we wouldn't have had to franchise him.....twice.
I always felt he wanted the long term deal, but the FO was the one sticking to the franchise. Basically waiting for his leg to give out.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Legend
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The guy has wanted to leave for three years, everybody needs to get over it.
The hate for this FO is ludicrous. At least wait until the team is set and games are played. What a bunch of whiners.
Show me one time where he ever said he wanted out? You can't. He never said it and it was never reported as anything but supposition by reporters.
I firmly believe that if, 2 years ago, we'd have given Dawson a 5 year deal worth 1.5 to 2 mill a year, he'd have signed it. That IS supposition on my part of course. But given his comments after signing with the 49ers and the classy way he handled everything, I think I'm right.
I do NOT blame this front office. Look at it from their perspective, a 38 year old guy who was playing at the top of his game last season. At 38, how much longer could he do that and at what price. You as the new owner/CEO/GM/Coaching staff know, without a doubt that you are at minimum a couple of years away. Pick the smarter move:
1. Stick with a guy that is 38 and nearing the end and costing a lot
or
2. Find his replacement that's younger and grow him into a very sound kicker.
the trick of course is, can you find the replacement? And I think we can.
My hope of course, is that our offense will finally show up and score more so we don't have to depend on a kickers leg near as much. Tell me that wouldn't be way more fun to watch?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Show me one time where he ever said he wanted out? You can't. He never said it and it was never reported as anything but supposition by reporters.
Sorry I phrased that wrong. What I meant was not so much he "wanted out", but rather a few years ago, he wanted the long term deal and they wouldn't give it to him, instead they used the franchise tag twice.
Look I like Phil, and he was and is a great kicker, but all the years he has been here, you know he wants a ring before it is over.
The fans love him, and he loved the fans. He is all class. But I would think that even you would understand him wanting a chance before it is all over.
They should have given him the long term deal a few years ago, and this would have never happened.
Still, he is gone, and I'm sure he is happy, not for leaving Cleveland, but more, for the chance at a ring. My comment wasn't to suggest he had any animosity towards the team, just a natural want for a championship.I would have to believe he has been planning on leaving for a little while now.
#gmstrong
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Legend
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I'd assume it's not easy to sell your self for 3 years at the age of 38.
Dawson didn't have any problem selling himself to the team that almost won the Super Bowl, did he?
BTW, Dawson let his kicking do the talking for him, having his best year ever.
Teams that have experienced football people making the tough decisions they understand how valuable the best kickers are...they realize the best field goal kickers win football games.
Teams that have inexperienced people in charge, people who do not come from a football background...they fail to understand the value a top field goal kicker brings to a team...they believe "anyone" can do it, so why not save the team a few bucks.
Well, most Browns fans realize, not everyone can kick well in the CBS stadium, especially come Nov and Dec. This decision will likely cost the team some wins this coming season.
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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This decision will likely cost the team some wins this coming season./color]
Perhaps, but we certainly cannot expect the same level of competence that Phil provided...
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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Legend
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Not sure I can take much more of your drama on this...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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All Pro
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Heckert paid a 37 year old kicker $3.8 million last year. I was on the other board, didn't hear any criticism or a peep about younger kickers then. Folks were very supportive, many wishing to lock him even longer (this year).
Now, after his best season and a 40% discount, you guys don't see why some of us would have preferred Banner to make every attempt to keep him another year or two.
If you like this move, you must have been critical of Heckert last year. Campaigning for the young kicker of the future, Right? Let me guess, you guys supported it both ways...
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Its unlikely that the entirety of discussion between Phil and the Browns is known to any of us or the media. In all likelihood Phil wanted to go to the 49ers as opposed to stay. Why wouldn't he? I think we all know that while improving and becoming more relevant the Browns aren't likely to be Super Bowl contenders this year. Phil Dawson is a high motor competitor who I am sure would like a championship ring. Hes got about 2 years to get that done. We should be happy for him and move on.
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All Pro
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I think we all know that while improving and becoming more relevant
We don't all know that this team is improving, though. Some of us think Phil's departure is the opposite of improving.
I am happy for Phil, and agree we'll never know all of the details.
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Legend
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I'm a Heckert was great guy.
But I have to lay blame for losing Dawson to Heckert as well as Banner/Lombardi.
I'm sure if we put out a decent Long Term contract 5 years in 2011, 4 years in 2012 - after we Franchised him here. And of course 3 years this off season. So actually I'm very disappointed in Both FO for losing Dawson. I think that is what Dawson wanted n truly wanted to stay here. With his retiring after the 2015 season as a Long Term Plan.
Well at least we know Nobody lost a Championship because of their Kicker.... 
Oh no Many Have  I know the age thing was in there. But unless you got a guy in hand I don't like letting loose good veterans....ergo Dawson one of the few we can say that. Just don't wish this to bite us. Then again Lombardi's best draft pick was Janowkowski...so I think he can give us a young strong n accurate kicker for the next 10 years or so.
JMHHope 
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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...Well at least we know Nobody lost a Championship because of their Kicker....
You might want to ask Buffalo about that, eo.
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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I put blame on the past regime as well regarding Phil. The only thing that would have been interesting is if the lockout never happen and if that impacted any long term deal. As I remember, many teams were prudent with long term deals, with the uncertainty of not knowing what would happen next.
I think that lack of certainty led to some of Phil's personal choices to move to Texas. I think the relationship began to fall apart from there, unfortunately.
Tackles are tackles.
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All Pro
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...Well at least we know Nobody lost a Championship because of their Kicker....
You might want to ask Buffalo about that, eo.
And New England. Super Bowls and that kick in the AFC Championship game.
They could just as easily be Buffalo and Buffalo could have just as easily been them.
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Legend
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...Well at least we know Nobody lost a Championship because of their Kicker....
You might want to ask Buffalo about that, eo.
Not to mention Aikers almost prevented the 49'ers from making it as far as they did. Kickers are still a very important piece of the puzzle.
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Legend
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I know it was not done to discredit me...but MY GOODNESS if you are going to read me...READ THE ENTIRE POST 
That quoted Line from my post was to SET up MY NEXT LINE...which was to state that Championships have been LOST due to the Kicker
None more noticeable than Buffalo vs Giants wide right kick. If I recollect correctly...The Kicker was one of the best until that WIDE RIGHT n after that his confidence was lost n he faded from the NFL. The only thought of Dawson...he was never really put in that PLAYOFF situation, that kind of pressure to see what he could do. I think his confidence was on such a high level right now he would have done well.
The only bad season Dawson had...we were out of any Playoff contention EARLY (he did well early) but then the last 10 games was very inconsistent This was the year that his son (infant) I think almost drowned??? Forgot exactly but spent about a month in the Hospital. That was the only time his % was bad.
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Legend
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Heckert paid a 37 year old kicker $3.8 million last year. I was on the other board, didn't hear any criticism or a peep about younger kickers then. Folks were very supportive, many wishing to lock him even longer (this year).
Now, after his best season and a 40% discount, you guys don't see why some of us would have preferred Banner to make every attempt to keep him another year or two.
If you like this move, you must have been critical of Heckert last year. Campaigning for the young kicker of the future, Right? Let me guess, you guys supported it both ways...
Here's what happens.........
When a new FO and in this case owner come to town, they will sell their souls to support every move they make no matter what. Every excuse and twist they can find. Even to the point of saying letting Phil, our most productive player walk.
They give everyone a honeymoon until they have so many ex-wives it's not even funny!
And if you dare question a new FO's lack of ability, they label you a hater, a whiner or whatever seems convenient to them to try to discount your viewpoint.
It's time the fan base around here expects more. That they expect a product that's actually worth paying for. I guess you could say if they wish to label the detractors of this FO who only expect to see accountability for a change whiners, it would be just as easy to label those who consistently pay and support a very sub-standard product patsies. They get sucked in over and over and yet seem to support that.
This FO has hired a good coaching staff. That's the only thing they've done so far. Kruger had an all star cast surrounding him. so how will he do in a town without that supporting cast in an entire new system here? Nobody really knows yet.
Other than Kruger, there has been no top rated signings. Until it is shown that this isn't an instant replay of past regimes here, it sure looks to this point that it may be. Time will tell.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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~ Legend
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I'd assume it's not easy to sell your self for 3 years at the age of 38.
Dawson didn't have any problem selling himself to the team that almost won the Super Bowl, did he?
BTW, Dawson let his kicking do the talking for him, having his best year ever.
Dawson got a 1 year deal, not a 3 year deal. Next.
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J/C
Banner and Haslam have said that this year is probably not going to be a breakout year for the Browns. We probably aren't going to go 13-3 this season.
If we don't win this year, and we have Dawson as our kicker, what does that do for us long term? As much as I love Dawson as a player, how long does he continue to kick effectively? Till he's 40? 42? 50? Doubtful. If he only kicks one or 2 more years, doesn't it make sense to try and find the next great kicker now, so that he is in place and experienced when we do turn the corner into contender status?
Also, if you look at Banner's background, he has been willing to lose a player a year too soon, rather than hanging onto a player a year too long. He let David Akers go while he was still on top, and saw him bomb in San Francisco in his 2nd year there. Akers did great in his 1st year with the Niners ...... but bombed in his 2nd, converting only 29 of 42 of his attempts. Meanwhile, in Philly, Alex Henery, the kicker signed to replace Akers, went 24-27 as a rookie, and 27-31 as a 2nd year player. He missed fewer kicks in his 1st 2 years combined than Akers did in his final year.
Maybe Banner knew what he was doing after all.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Legend
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Maybe Banner knew what he was doing after all.
Lets not be silly. That's obviously not possible.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Legend
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Banner and Haslam have said that this year is probably not going to be a breakout year for the Browns. We probably aren't going to go 13-3 this season.
If we don't win this year, and we have Dawson as our kicker, what does that do for us long term? As much as I love Dawson as a player, how long does he continue to kick effectively? Till he's 40? 42? 50? Doubtful. If he only kicks one or 2 more years, doesn't it make sense to try and find the next great kicker now, so that he is in place and experienced when we do turn the corner into contender status?
For all of those saying This isn't a complete re-build, that sure sounds like what you're describing here. Yet they just won't publicly call it that.
I think it's time people realize and admit that's exactly what this is. It's just that this regime won't tell us how many years it plans to take.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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But I have to lay blame for losing Dawson to Heckert as well as Banner/Lombardi.
He didn't want to be here three years ago, (even going so far as selling his home and moving his family,) so we franchised him. He didn't want to be here two years ago, so we franchised him again, (and was publicly pissed that we did it). He didn't want to be here this year, so we had to let him walk. I wanted us to work something out, and maybe (but only maybe) some type high pay, long term contract might have gotten it, but how do you really put this on anyone but Dawson? He wanted to go, he's wanted to go for three years. Now he's gone. Hope he's happy.
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/hfMNC7T.jpg) "I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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...quoted Line from my post was to SET up MY NEXT LINE..
I misread the next line...my bad. Apologies...
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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Legend
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Oh lord could you people be any more wrong about anything in life Look Phil wanted a long term contract for the last three years, he didn't get it yet he still handled the situation like not only a true professional but with class like the classy guy he is. He wanted to resign with the Browns but was not even offered a contract this year. Sorry guys but thats the facts. Blame can be placed with the old front office and the new front office for screwing it up three years in a row.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Legend
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If the team feels that they are a year away, how does that make this a rebuild?
2 drafts and 2 free agency periods can significantly change the face of a team. We've already added 2 starters through free agency, and 4 other pieces who may contribute at different levels. We should add 1 or 2 starters in the draft. Maybe next year we add 2 more starters in free agency, and 2 in the draft, and we have changed things significantly, but haven't, necessarily, done a rebuild. I do think that 2014 is the goal for the front office, There is some solid talent here, but we need some stars. I think that's what we'll be looking for in the next 2 drafts.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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... Till he's 40? 42? 50?
How old was George Blanda, Jan Stenurud?...and still productive.
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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Legend
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I think they think we need a QB. And won't be able to get one for at least a year.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Legend
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Okay let's simplify this. How many players would have to be turned over from the roster when they took over for you to consider it a rebuild?
30? 35? 40? I mean let's be real here and apply a number to it. And what do you consider success?
To me, they would have to win at least 10 games to consider it "turning things around and finding success".
So once again, what is the number you put on roster turnover before we actually win 10+ games until you consider it a rebuild?
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Legend
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In the NFL. Until you find a QB, you're rebuilding.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Legend
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In the NFL. Until you find a QB, you're rebuilding.
And sometimes, that alone won't give you the definition of success outlined above. Sometimes it does but sometimes it doesn't.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 17,455 Likes: 1380
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 17,455 Likes: 1380 |
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He didn't want to be here three years ago, (even going so far as selling his home and moving his family,) so we franchised him. He didn't want to be here two years ago, so we franchised him again, (and was publicly pissed that we did it). He didn't want to be here this year, so we had to let him walk. I wanted us to work something out, and maybe (but only maybe) some type high pay, long term contract might have gotten it, but how do you really put this on anyone but Dawson? He wanted to go, he's wanted to go for three years. Now he's gone. Hope he's happy.
Sorry, but there is no proof whatsoever that this is true- that Phil DIDN'T want to be here. Easily, Phil could have moved assuming he wasn't coming back, not because he wanted to leave. And because he's from Texas and not knowing where he could have been employed next because of the CBA, that's a logical place to go....to go back home.
Everything alluded to in your comment has been pure speculation by fans and topics for journalists. Nothing more. For example, fans saying that Phil wanted to leave to play closer to home and be with his family. Yeah, San Fran is closer to home.
Even if Phil wanted to leave, he's too classy to make it known.
I'm indifferent on Phil leaving. I completely understand and appreciate why Banner and Co. didn't re-sign him. But I also think Phil has gas left in the tank, has value, and knows this stadium winds better than anyone (obviously). And at the price he got in San Fran, that's something we could have dished out. But I assume, at the earliest, this FO thinks we will be competing in two years and by then Phil's skills won't be worth it. What's the point in paying a short term contract next year when it essentially will be pointless? Maybe it's better to invest in a younger kicker and let him progress over time until the time is right.
Regardless of what people think about the decision to let Phil walk, and the process that got him there, there is no doubt he will be remembered for a long time. Even for a kicker. After he retires, I hope the Browns find a way to remember his commitment and loyalty in a sport that rarely exhibits it. Hopefully, Phil comes back home in some fashion to Cleveland.
Tackles are tackles.
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 Likes: 501
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 Likes: 501 |
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This decision will likely cost the team some wins this coming season.
Since 1999 we have averaged 5 wins a season. So how many games is this really going to cost us? Kicker is one of the least valuable positions. It seems like they win teams games because they make (or miss) a game winning kick, but the rest of the team are really the ones putting the team in the position to win (or lose).
An elite QB (Brady, Rodgers, Manning, etc.) is worth what, 10 wins? An elite kicker -- maybe 1.
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Phil Dawson to 49ers
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