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It was a horribly written ballot, I agree. I remember having a VERY long thread or two on the old board with you guys. And, I remember after the vote, so many people discovered they voted the way they hadn't intended to due to the wording. It doesn't matter. Here we are, nine years later, having the same stupid debate.
This won't change, YTown. No worries for you.
#gmstrong #gmlapdance
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My point about the word itself is that you deride me for wanting to protect the meaning of a word, and you say that it's only a word .... but you are unwilling to move forward without that same word that is only "just a word", because you feel that it should be "your" word.
No, never said the word can't mean what it means to you. Reread my posts. You are, however, telling ME that I can't use it because of what it means to YOU. What about what it means to ME? Oh, right...that doesn't matter. 
For the record, I feel it should be A word. For all.
#gmstrong #gmlapdance
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I cannot believe that you can't see how it would be easier to take a step less likely to offend the religious and traditional sensibilities of a majority of people, which gay "marriage" does.
If by "majority" you mean 41%. over 50% (and climbing) of people favor gay marriage. The only age demographic where this is not true is those who are 65 or older. Even people who label themselves as religious are in favor for it once you get to a young enough demographic.
If that is truly the case, then we'll have gay marriage across the board in no time flat. However, I do believe that a certain level of peer acceptance comes into play, and a desire to not be seen as intolerant when asked about gay marriage.
If people were truly in support of gay marriage, then states would match , or outperform their polls when it came to the elections. Instead most states have final vote margins, even in states where such measures pass, that are much more narrow than the polls would suggest they should be.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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...... however, it seems to me that the way to overcome that is not by trying to figuratively shove peoples' noses in it. That is not the way to gain widespread acceptance of your right to live your life as you choose. You want to change an institution. You want to make it something it has never been before. .
So, by allowing gay marriage we are "shoving people's noses in WHAT exactly? Seems to me the people shoving their noses where they don't belong are the ones telling us how to live our lives, no? I don't want to change an institution at all. Where did I say that?
#gmstrong #gmlapdance
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But yet that word is what stands before equality and non equality. It is a very specific distinction. It separates a group based on nothing more than by the person they love.
In this day and age, when every person of any color, creed, religion, sex, and marital status have protections, this is the one that has yet to be eliminated at a governmental level.
National organizations have classified it as a protected class. But the government won't allow the recognition of their union. Heck, the county I live in has made it a protected class. But yet it is still seen as a way to segregate people on a State and National level.
Stop the discrimination and let person X marry person Y.
KeysDawg
The fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. - Carl Sagan
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If people were truly in support of gay marriage, then states would match , or outperform their polls when it came to the elections
Umm..they do. Did you not click on the link I posted?
California Prop 8 vote in 2008 (where a yes means ban gay marriage): 52/48.
Californians in 2008 who were for gay marriage in the poll I posted: 48%
Washington state Referendum 74 this year (where a yes means gay marriage is OK): 54/46
Washingtonians in 2012 who were for gay marriage in the poll I posted: 55%
I can list the other ballots for you too but they say the same thing: the data is correct. So the data says "and a desire to not be seen as intolerant when asked about gay marriage" is a baseless claim because people are voting in favor of gay marriage and matching the polling data.
Additionally, if you look at the bottom of the link I posted, by 2020, it is expected that 44/50 states will have a majority of "pro gay marriage" voters and that the national rate will go from 42% in 2008 (48% in 2012) to 60% in 2020. So I don't think people are just "saying they're ok with gay marriage to be less intolerant" but that people are becoming less intolerant.
![[Linked Image from i190.photobucket.com]](http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z33/booger52/phpGGRdhwAM.jpg)
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Legend
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I have no doubt that one day we'll have gay marriage and multiple marriage, and God knows what else. I don't have children, so it won't matter to me what this country does long term, but I do believe that traditions have value, and we shouldn't completely change the meaning of words related to our long established institutions. You can say that blue is now orange, but it really is still blue.
Now, I am going to depart this thread, because no one is going to convince anyone of their positions.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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...and we shouldn't completely change the meaning of words related to our long established institutions.
You still won't say how allowing gay marriage changes the meaning of the word...
#gmstrong #gmlapdance
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...and we shouldn't completely change the meaning of words related to our long established institutions.
You still won't say how allowing gay marriage changes the meaning of the word...
The same way "interracial marriage" changed it 50 years ago...by not changing a damn thing but getting people's panties in a bunch because they have a hard time adapting to a changing world where more than straight, white people have rights.
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Legend
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Marriage, in the traditional sense and meaning of the word, in the legal and religious history of this country, is a legal, and sometimes religious union between one man and one woman. One man cannot legally marry more than one woman. One woman cannot marry more than one man. One man cannot marry one man, One woman cannot marry one woman. In the traditional, legal, and religious meanings of the word marriage throughout the history of the United States, it is one man married to one woman.
To attribute any other combination to the word is to change the very meaning of the word. It would be like saying that CO is the same a O2 .... because each contain 2 atoms, and what those atoms are shouldn't matter.
Now, I am done for the time being. We are going to go round and round and accomplish nothing. I like and respect you and your opinions, and I think that I agree with you far more often than not overall, but I disagree with your idea of what marriage is, and/or should be changed to be.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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In which way does this argument differ than the argument for interracial marriage? You can easily replace gay marriage and interracial marriage for your argument since neither one was seen as "traditional for 200+ years of American history. Yet one is legal, and one is not. Do you really not see the irony or the cognitive dissonance there?
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Legend
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Because no matter the color, marriage has still been one man and one woman.
Race is a civil rights issue. I don't know that gay marriage is, The Supreme Court will decide that shortly ...... maybe.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Legend
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Quote:
Marriage, in the traditional sense and meaning of the word, in the legal and religious history of this country, is a legal, and sometimes religious union between one man and one woman. One man cannot legally marry more than one woman. One woman cannot marry more than one man. One man cannot marry one man, One woman cannot marry one woman. In the traditional, legal, and religious meanings of the word marriage throughout the history of the United States, it is one man married to one woman.
You may want to crack a history book.
First of all, you left out the term 'white' several times in your post. Interracial marriage, historically, wasn't legal until 1967.
If you want to get into the legal definition of marriage being between a man and a woman, you don't have to go back very far ... it didn't happen until 1973, when Maryland became the first state to do so. It wasn't defined federally as between a man and a woman - in a legal sense - until the 1990's.
Polygamy wasn't banned until 1862.
Married women weren't allowed to own property until 1900.
Married couples weren't legally allowed to use contraception until 1965.
Married women weren't allowed to have credit in their name until 1975.
I could keep going...
Do you really want to continue to pursue the avenue of what the legal definition of marriage is in our country's history?
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Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, don't tell him. 
For someone who had two profiles on the old board, both making the same statements one right after the other, it's surprising that you want to call somebody 2 faced Tingcreek. 
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Honestly - what is up with you guys and the name calling?
I don't mean to pick on you in particular - I've seen other guys do it lately.
But what is the point of calling him 'Nillcreek'?
There's really no comedic value to it. It's not very witty or funny. And it doesn't really serve as an insult to him. In fact, the opposite is true, it reflects poorly on you.
There are a lot of people out there who would see stuff like that and wave off any opinion you might have, even if you've got astute points to make.
Changing 'Mil' to 'Nil' or whatever as an insult? It seems to me like something Sarah Palin would say with a wink.
JMHO.
Back to your regularly scheduled programming...
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Legend
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Well that settles it then King all men are gay 
From now on GM stands for
G ay
M an
well back in my day
The term was originally used to refer to feelings of being "carefree", "happy", or "bright and showy"
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, don't tell him.
For someone who had two profiles on the old board, both making the same statements one right after the other, it's surprising that you want to call somebody 2 faced Tingcreek.
That is a false statement. He did not have two profiles on the old board. Not a cool thing to say about a guy on a new board.
WE DON'T NEED A QB BEFORE WE GET A LINE THAT CAN PROTECT HIM
my two cents...
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Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, don't tell him.
For someone who had two profiles on the old board, both making the same statements one right after the other, it's surprising that you want to call somebody 2 faced Tingcreek.
That is a false statement. He did not have two profiles on the old board. Not a cool thing to say about a guy on a new board.
Nothing has changed in Weinerworld, folks will learn on this board how Weiner really manipulates the truth, 
GO BROWNS!
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There is an old saying that compromise is the art of the possible. There is no compromise when one side says "give us everything we have asked for, and also have everyone accept it as correct and proper whether or not their moral or religious codes say that it is not."
Stop the presses,,, Ytown believes in Compromise,.. You've given me hope my friend..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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That is a false statement. He did not have two profiles on the old board. Not a cool thing to say about a guy on a new board.
I see that selective criticism is being used on this board as well.
If you don't want people to pick on Mittcreek you might want to suggest to him that he practice sanity on occasion. 
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jc.. I really have no opinion on the matter. My religious beliefs are mine, and the only one I am accountable to is God. If someone else chooses to do something that some think is against the laws of God, that is the offenders choice (free will) and if it is deemed wrong in the eyes of God, then that person will be held accountable when thte time comes, it is not my position to pass judgement. Until that day I will do my best to "love thy neighbor" (and yes my neighbors are a gay male couple, who I get along with very well) But on the lighter side, wasn't the Reese's Peanut Butter cup a MARRIAGE of chocolate and peanut butter or was it just a union.?  I think too many people get caught up with what others are doing and not looking at what they are doing. If we were all more tolerant, courteous, and polite, the world could be a wonderful peaceful place.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Legend
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There is an old saying that compromise is the art of the possible. There is no compromise when one side says "give us everything we have asked for, and also have everyone accept it as correct and proper whether or not their moral or religious codes say that it is not."
Stop the presses,,, Ytown believes in Compromise,.. You've given me hope my friend..
I have always believed in compromise ...... but that's not to be confused with totally giving in on principles. Some interpret a conservative compromising as giving the other side everything they want, and that's a compromise. I don't share that ideal.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Legend
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There is an old saying that compromise is the art of the possible. There is no compromise when one side says "give us everything we have asked for, and also have everyone accept it as correct and proper whether or not their moral or religious codes say that it is not."
Stop the presses,,, Ytown believes in Compromise,.. You've given me hope my friend..
I have always believed in compromise ...... but that's not to be confused with totally giving in on principles. Some interpret a conservative compromising as giving the other side everything they want, and that's a compromise. I don't share that ideal.
There are those on here that wouldn't state it that way Ytown and you know it. Any compromise with Obama is a bad compromise as some would have you believe.
Any compromise on religious beliefs is a bad compromise, as some would have you believe.,
My personal feelings are pretty well known I think. I believe to reach compromise, you start out at the far right and the far left and meet as close to the middle as you can.
And yes, sometimes you do have to give in to things that irk you, but are for the greater good of mankind or country or whatever it is we are fighting over today.
You can't have true compromise without giving something up that you don't want to give up. Can't happen.
But that's just me
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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So, is Rape the same as Assault, or is it a special type of crime?
It is different because Men and Women are different. It is different because the sexual union of a man and a woman is Different than such a union in a same sex couple.
That union between a man and a woman is protected in a variety of ways, and Rape laws are, in part, an element of that protection.
The Collective "we" has an interest in children being produced, it has an interest in parenting couples that share an unique and un-breakable bond with those mutually-produced children, it has an interest in that couple remaining a unit for the long-term upbringing of those children, it has an interest in that parental unit being a fusion of two completely different physical, emotional, biological, and procreative energies. It is NOT POSSIBLE for a same-sex couple to replicate the above.
The design of this parenting system is not some new-gfangled conservative concept, it Pre-Dates The Discovery Of FIRE.
If somebody wants to have some different grouping together of couples, fine and dandy. Same rights and priveleges, now there's a discussion, but sure. In fact I have some interest in eliminating Male-Female biases in dissolving a marriage and dealing with children, as somebody else got into. Rock on.
However - to claim that a same-sex union is the same thing as a man-woman union, is just not correct, and it reeks of a mind-set that I strongly disagree with. It is Different, and changing a label does not make it the same.
If there is NO difference, then Rape is just Assault.
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How about we really compromise?
The country allows gay marriages, and we (the country) agree to forever defend marriage as being limited to TWO(mostly) un-related adults.
I say 'mostly' so we avoid brothers and sisters,fathers and adult children, mothers and adult children or close cousins from marrying.
I'm hiding in Honduras, I'm a desperate man.
Send lawyers guns and money!
Warren Zevon
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to TWO(mostly) un-related adults.
I say 'mostly' so we avoid brothers and sisters,fathers and adult children, mothers and adult children or close cousins from marrying.
So does that mean Pittsburgh has to be kicked out of the states?
You may be in the drivers seat but God is holding the map. #GMSTRONG
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How about we really compromise?
The country allows gay marriages, and we (the country) agree to forever defend marriage as being limited to TWO(mostly) un-related adults.
I say 'mostly' so we avoid brothers and sisters,fathers and adult children, mothers and adult children or close cousins from marrying.
LOL,, Ok you had me wondering where you were going with the "Mostly" thing..
But why do we have to allow anyone. The word "Allow" bothers me. You allow your kids to use the car, you allow people to come on your property, you allow a repair man to fix things for you (for consideration of course), you allow friends and family to stay at your home when visiting..
I'm not thinking it's our place to either allow or disallow who marries who.
I just don't think it's my business to tell anyone who to do what with as long as they are consenting adults.
Keep in mind, I'm not trying to tell you how to feel or how to behave towards same sex relationships. That's your call.. That is also something else I don't think is my business.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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So, is Rape the same as Assault, or is it a special type of crime?
It is different because Men and Women are different. It is different because the sexual union of a man and a woman is Different than such a union in a same sex couple.
That union between a man and a woman is protected in a variety of ways, and Rape laws are, in part, an element of that protection.
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If there is NO difference, then Rape is just Assault.
This is one of the weirder arguments I've heard it awhile. There's really no logic to it whatsoever.
A woman can be assaulted and not raped, a man can rape a man, etc., etc.
Rape and assault aren't the same thing, and it has nothing to do with sexual unions. It has to do with the fact that they're entirely different things. If I punch a woman or a man in the mouth, that's not rape. If I attempt sexual intercourse with them against their will, that is.
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I am and I always have been very allergic to other people telling me what I can and I cannot do, therefore I'm pretty careful not to do that to others.
This is because if I try to.. I would then have a reasonable expectation they would attempt to tell me what to do, and I will simply not put up with that.
Having said that I could care less who screws who or who marries who. Everyone has the right to an expensive divorce attorney.
SaintDawg™
Football, baseball, basketball, wine, women, walleye
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That is a false statement. He did not have two profiles on the old board. Not a cool thing to say about a guy on a new board.
I see that selective criticism is being used on this board as well.
If you don't want people to pick on Mittcreek you might want to suggest to him that he practice sanity on occasion.
Rockdog is better known as "Weinerdog" on the Browns site, a supporter of Barrack Husein Obama, big government, wealth distribution, gay marriage, atheism, increased welfare spending, amenesty for illegals and all Green initiatives no matter the cost. He is a school teacher who feels underpaid and pension slighted who uses a an old English/East Chicago/Brit slang to communicate. He is really harmless, but loves to scatch his nails on the chaulk board. Take his rambling with a grain of salt and laugh if you can.
I am sure he will eventually take a stand on the side of gay marriage and enlighten us all.  
GO BROWNS!
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Everyone has the right to an expensive divorce attorney.
Or should....
#gmstrong #gmlapdance
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Well, DancinDawg will graduate Kent State next year, she wants to do OSU Law School. I want as many opportunities available to her as possible 
SaintDawg™
Football, baseball, basketball, wine, women, walleye
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Well, by your logic our laws should not be able to tell someone not to commit murder.
KING
You may be in the drivers seat but God is holding the map. #GMSTRONG
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Wondering out loud. Hmmmm Being male if I make love to my own male hand does that mean I'm gay
-not if you name one "Lily" and the other one "Ruth"...
"too many notes, not enough music-"
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It is different and more serious because it carries with it the possibility of procreation. This has a whole slew of various consequences and effects that
change the picture entirely. An assault is still a bad thing, and can also have long-lasting effects, but of an entirely different order.
It is different than an assault in the exact same way that same-sex union is different than man-woman union. Most customs, traditions, and procedures geared to accomodate man-woman unions have arisen to foster the creation of new citizens to contribute to the community. Doesn't mean same-sex unions are bad, just that they do not, by themselves, do this.
The difference is fundamental and constitutes the reason why we want more of one and less of the other, considering the meaning of the words "rape" and "marriage".
Unions which usually carry the possibility of procreation are something that
is necessary for the race to survive, that they ideally should have children that are mutually created and that they represent together a balance between the two poles in human gender norms, is highly desireable and the best way for orderly society to survive.
To say that a union which by definition cannot accomplish the basic biological reason for man-woman unions to exist in the first place is a good and wonderful thing, great, no problem. Have at it, all day long. Call it whatever you want. It's still not the same thing.
Really, I thought it would be perfectly clear.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,642
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,642 |
Quote:
Well, DancinDawg will graduate Kent State next year, she wants to do OSU Law School. I want as many opportunities available to her as possible
She is NOT old enough to be graduating from KSU yet (I know, next year, not this year). Bah! I haven't aged a day since I met your kids, how could they have aged?
![[Linked Image from i75.photobucket.com]](http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i302/lrhinkle/d5eaf0b9-e429-4211-b53f-b843bfcf6aa9_zps2ac17420.jpg) #gmstrong
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 49,975 Likes: 355
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 49,975 Likes: 355 |
Quote:
Quote:
Well, DancinDawg will graduate Kent State next year, she wants to do OSU Law School. I want as many opportunities available to her as possible
She is NOT old enough to be graduating from KSU yet (I know, next year, not this year). Bah! I haven't aged a day since I met your kids, how could they have aged?
Some of us must have received your years for you ...... 
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015 Likes: 147
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015 Likes: 147 |
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Well, by your logic our laws should not be able to tell someone not to commit murder.
KING
I think the basic rule of live and let live, is that your actions do not interfere with others.
Most people wouldn't care if did 120mph down an empty interstate, but if others are around and your actions could have consequences for them, then it is reasonable for you to be expected to show courtesy and follow the basic rules of safety.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465
Legend
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OP
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465 |
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It is different and more serious because it carries with it the possibility of procreation.
If I raped you, there isn't the possibility of procreation. Therefore, by your definition, it isn't rape.
If I force a woman to perform oral sex on me at gunpoint, by your definition, that isn't rape.
I could keep going ... do you see the illogical nature of your argument?
Quote:
Unions which usually carry the possibility of procreation are something that
is necessary for the race to survive, that they ideally should have children that are mutually created and that they represent together a balance between the two poles in human gender norms, is highly desireable and the best way for orderly society to survive.
To say that a union which by definition cannot accomplish the basic biological reason for man-woman unions to exist in the first place is a good and wonderful thing, great, no problem. Have at it, all day long. Call it whatever you want. It's still not the same thing.
So by your logic, if a sterile man wanted to be with a woman, or an infertile woman wanted to be a man, they couldn't get married, but would have to enter into a civil union, correct?
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