DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... The Supreme Court & Gay Marriage

Like this one?

http://static1.grsites.com/archive/sounds/cartoon/cartoon010.wav

(Hope it works)

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Of course BB, now I have this vision of little babies shooting all over the room with that sound effect accompanying each one.

j/c

So... after SEVEN pages of back & forth....

Has anyone offered up a legitimate- I repeat- legitimate reason why some American Citizens should be prevented from enjoying the same rights as the rest of America's Citizens?

I ask this, because my personal view has less to do with the current Americans in question than it has to do with the past Americans in Our Nation's history.

As a kid in the late '60's, I walked in an "Equal Rights March" in my home town... side-by-side with My Father. Two days later, Our Town erupted in virulent racial violence... because some Blacks (and Whites, and Evangelicals, and...[insert name of 'social justice group' here] ) had the audacity to hold up traffic for two hours on a hot July Saturday afternoon.

I'll never forget the sight of My Moms, sobbing over the laundry sink in the basement, as she repeatedly dunked My Pops' starched white uniform shirts in a pool of black RIT dye, saying, "Bob... I can't get them dark enough..." (Pops was watch commander on 3rd shift that week. There were roving gangs of Blacks and Whites, tossing Molotov Cocktails. Reports of rooftop snipers taking potshots were common over that 7-10 day stretch of 'civic unrest'..) I'll never forget My Pops gently taking her stained hands in his, and saying: "Nita- you've done good... they don't have to be pitch-black.... you got'em dark enough. I'm proud of you, sweetheart."

(Scared the spit outta me- I was just old enough to feel the emotions between them, and that was enough to let me know that s#!t was truly real, yo-)


When I think back on those days, and how deeply-felt the emotions were on both sides of the racial justice issue, I can recall, first hand, how much it impacted my life. I was 11 years old- and faced with the very real possibility that I could lose My Father over these national issues that I was only just beginning to understand.

It was a profoundly transformative week in my life. When it was over, I talked to My Pops, and asked him some hard questions. Among them, one exchange stands out.

[Me]: "Dad- last week, we marched with guys like BeBop and Big Robb... and this week, those guys were 'The Enemy.' Who's good- and who's bad?"

[Pops]: Bobby... last week, we all marched to make this world better. This week, I did my job- to make our town safer. BeBop and Big Robb aren't The Enemy- they're just fighting in a different way than me... and I hope they change their minds... so we can march together again, some day."

[Me]: "What if they don't?
[Pops]: Then I'll put'em behind bars until they see it MY way"...


Pops was 'hardcore,' that way...

________________________

I recounted this story from The Life of Li'l Clemdawg to explain why I support the Gay Marriage movement.

I'm a heterosexual male in a (faithful) monogamous relationship. I hail from an ethnically-diverse background that saw some members of my ancestry legally barred from rights and privileges afforded to others. It took an act of congress (in 1965) to allow every member of my family to vote, and to enjoy all the rights and privileges that others had always taken for granted.... and if it takes another act of congress to ensure that the presently-disenfranchised members of My Family to gain the rights that I, as a heterosexual male enjoy- I promise you this:

.... I'll attend any march, shout into any microphone, be filmed on any local "News @ Eleven" broadcast, answer any public question honestly, and do everything I can to ensure that every American gets treated as a True American.

If I fail... America fails to be what she purports to be...
...and I will not let that happen.

.02,
Clemdawg.




Clem

Clem, first I think that "playing the race card" does not belong in this discussion. I think the analogy is flawed; while some people may have an unreasonable hatred of gay folks, I and many others against gay marriage do not.

Now I'll tell you a story.

Back in the 1950's, my father sold a boat thru a newspaper ad, and told me this story. "Man drives up in his car and gets out. He's a black man. " shrug. My father took no notice of race. "Looks at the boat, hands me a check, we shake hands. Look, to seal the deal, I'll take you and your family out to dinner, anyplace you want, my treat. The man looks back at the car, at his family, and says, 'well, you know the town, you pick the place', my dad says, 'no, no, my treat, you pick the place'.

The man looks down, literally scuffs his shoe in the dirt, looks up at my dad, and says ' well, you know, there's some places in this town where you and I could not sit down and eat together. Long pause. "well, let me tell you something. " Then, with feeling, "If they won't serve YOU, they won't serve ME either. Either TODAY, or EVER AGAIN".

At 12 or so, I knew such things did happen, but I had a hard time grasping it. When I told my son that story, he had no idea why such a thing could possibly happen, and I am proud of that.

A part of the reason for a strong belief in Civil Rights is that belief that the concept of Civil Rights is believed to be a strong concept. The concept should not be weakened. There have been movements to grant Civil Rights to other primates, for instance. Is it an Act of Evil to not do so?

Similarly, one small reason some people feel that they have a strong, long-term bond of marriage is that they believe that the long-term bonds of marriage itself are strong. The concept carries a self-reinforcing power, because of our belief in it. A part of that belief involves the strength of bonds thru children, and the long-term concerns that arise thru having children.

The belief in the strength of the concept should not be weakened. It is, to me, not a question of law or of fairness. It is a question of long-term survival.

Nelson: only a deep-seated core of bigotry could allow someone to think that disallowing another human being's rights is not just okay. but somehow right and proper. Your argument concerning my "playing the race card" conveniently ignores the similarities between these cases, which is why I wrote as I did.

This IS a civil rights issue, whether you choose to recognize it or not. An entire group of Americans is being treated differently than the rest of us. It's the very definition of discrimination- and it's not what this country is supposed to be about.

Virtually every unrepresented or under-represented group of Americans have had to swim upstream against the flow of resistance, ignorance and bigotry. In almost every case, history has shown them to prevail. This is no different, whether it infringes upon your 'comfort level' or not.

I believe (as do many others who have written in this thread) that your initial premise was flawed from the get-go, and has not stood the test of scrutiny by others. In no way is our "long-term survival" being threatened by granting Americans equal rights and protections... unless you think that allowing gay marriage is going to somehow turn everyone else gay. You don't "catch a case of the gays" with a handshake. You don't get "infected" with it by sitting next to someone on the bus, and allowing two people to get married doesn't shake the foundation of your marriage in any way. Folks will continue to pump out babies even if a same-sex couple does not.

This will be our last exchange on this subject, because it's apparent that none of us will ever be able to talk you out of your firmly-held, poorly-reasoned, and woefully misguided preconceptions. Further discourse on this topic would be a waste of my valuable time. Enjoy your banter with others, but I'm signing off of "The Nelson Show."

Nothin' more to see here, folks... I'm driving past this car wreck.

Your entire premise is based on a logical fallacy that

Allowing gay marriage ---> more gay people

People are either straight or they are gay. Allowing people who already together does not change anything. If gay marriage becomes legal tomorrow, do you really think straight people will just go "become gay"?

Clem, powerful stuff as usual. Thanks for sharing your story.

Well, Joker, I never said nor implied anything of the kind, but that's OK.

I understand the prevailing thought that even expressing the opinion that anyone or any group just possibly should not get everything they ask for, just because they really, really want it, means that I hate such people and want them all to die.

Doesn't matter if I believe it, you all are just so certain, it must be so.

Mostly the same folks wanted divorce to be simpler and easier, too. A well-meaning idea that has had far-reaching consequences, many of them bad.

The economic policies that have bankrupted this country came from the same mindset. We have to do it because it makes so many people feel good, practical implications be damned.

Oh, well, have at it.

Very nice posts CLEM