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Simple question, is Horton a man-to-man or a zone guy with his secondary? Any Cardinals fans among us? Paricularly interested in what they have seen.
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watched a bunch of AZ games before and after Horton was announced. AZ played both man-to-man and zone. He blitzes an absolute ton and that includes his DBs.
Expect to seet he zone-blitz and the normal man-to-man blitz. He'll constantly mix up coverages (safety back, no safety help, umbrella zone, etc.)
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If he is a proponent of the Steelers defensive schemes, then it is only to be expected that we see a wide range of coverages, along with the zone blitz. Dick Lebeau uses the zone blitz quite frequently in Pittsburgh, and I would expect Horton to use it a great deal here.
That's not to say that he plays a straight zone. If you watch the Steelers, it seems like they play a zone that seems to morph into man as the play develops. A player in coverage starts out with a zone look, but as the patterns develop, he picks up his man. I think that this allows the defense to play zone immediately off the initial blitz, and then pick up man if the play is extended. It's like the best of both worlds.
So, the original question was "is Horton a man-to-man or a zone guy with his secondary?" .... and the answer to this question would have to be, "Yes he is."
We're going to see a lot of different looks from every level of the defense.
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He mostly employs man coverage (especially press-man) for his DBs with some Cover 3 (zone) sometimes.
Mostly man coverage, though.
EDIT: Ytown summarized it well. Lots of zone blitzing, but the DBs aren't really playing zone.
Last edited by PowderBlue11; 03/31/13 05:00 PM.
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Any coach in the NFL is gonna do both.
Horton does like to use press coverage a lot, Making it even more vital for to get Milliner for his defense. Milliner fits perfectly in his scheme. He's big for a corner, fast 4.3 speed and supports the run very well.
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Like the press more. So who is our best blitzer, say DL, LB, secondary. I would rather send them on a blitz than drop line into coverage. Just works way too seldom to be justifiable. 
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Quote:
So who is our best blitzer
Ward coming in front of Haden. Thats whats going to give Haden the chance to be elite. Same thing we were doing last year before Haden went on suspension.
Of course if thats effective it could open the door for Kruger coming from the other side. Behind Taylor and Winn.
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Don't forget Buster Skrine from the slot. He would be lethal as a blitzing CB with his speed.
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Quote:
If he is a proponent of the Steelers defensive schemes, then it is only to be expected that we see a wide range of coverages, along with the zone blitz. Dick Lebeau uses the zone blitz quite frequently in Pittsburgh, and I would expect Horton to use it a great deal here.
That's not to say that he plays a straight zone. If you watch the Steelers, it seems like they play a zone that seems to morph into man as the play develops. A player in coverage starts out with a zone look, but as the patterns develop, he picks up his man. I think that this allows the defense to play zone immediately off the initial blitz, and then pick up man if the play is extended. It's like the best of both worlds.
So, the original question was "is Horton a man-to-man or a zone guy with his secondary?" .... and the answer to this question would have to be, "Yes he is."
We're going to see a lot of different looks from every level of the defense.
YTown, kudos! Best definition given regarding Steelers DB coverage. It is truly both. They play angles very similar to basketball cutting off passing lanes using a zone coverage. With the combination of heavy pressure and illusion of tight coverage, they disguise man-to-man. QB's are hurried into thinking receiver beat coverage.
I always want to see coaches film seeing how Polamalu is able to float. It is obvious a pre-play read. How Pittsburgh can continue camouflaging full coverage with three DB's is intriguing. You know Polamalu is part of the puzzle, but he is always in the heart of the play. As I pointed out, I see Steelers using a basketball style zone coverage.
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Good stuff guys, never considered the possibitlity that "hybrid" could describe the secondary using zone and man within a single play.
My original question was raised as I thought about the size of DB's currently on the roster, then adding Owens who is on the shorter side also. Then there's the draft interest in Mathieu who measured 5' 8" at the combine. I know that height by itself will not be the determining factor in the type of coverage the team uses. But having some guys who can match up with taller receivers would seem to make man-to-man more effective.
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Well, if you use the FS as a guy who can attack the play, as opposed to covering a particular player, then you can get plays like Polamalu and Reed make. Of course, if he can't read plays, and gets caught up in the wake, instead of putting himself in position to make plays, then he can almost be worse than an extra defender. The FS in this defense has to be able to read the play, and make sure that he doesn't hang his corners out to dry without help over the top when he comes up to try to hide in a shorter zone to bait the pass. This is where Young really seems to fail. He gets a couple of INT, and he thinks that this is all he has to do. QBs then bait him into attacking up, and we watch receivers run right through his zone to the end zone, because the Corner expects deep help that has abandoned ship. Bleh. Given that the team has tried to replace Young with at least 2 different players, (Hagg and Gipson) I can only assume that they see the same things I see. The FS can't freelance, unless that is his play in a particular snap.
If the defense sends 5 on the blitz, then there will always be an extra defender. The most that an offense can send into the pattern is 5 receivers. The defense can send 5, man up, and still have that extra defender somewhere. This extra defender can be used as a deep zone, a straight double cover, or to attack the play as it develops. Polamalu and Reed both do a great job of diagnosing a play, disguising and misdirecting where they are going, and what they are doing on the field. That is one of our biggest challenges on defense right now ........finding and/or developing someone for this type of role.
Someone else asked about short DBs ... and I think that everyone would prefer tall DBs who can run a 4.25 ...... but those guys are few and far between. If this defense is working right, then anyone in man cover shouldn't be hung out to dry for 7 or 8 seconds in coverage, which is when size and speed issues seem to become amplified on the field. Pressure is the key in this offense, because if you can knock the QB off his timing, release, and spot, then the odds of a successful play on offense are lessened.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
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Quote:
is Horton a man-to-man or a zone guy with his secondary
He is a Little guy that can hit guy with his secondary.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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I think one guy who could flourish in Horton's secondary is TJ Ward. I haven't thought as highly of him as most people do. I think he makes some nice plays and some big hits. However, I think he is terrible as a down-the-field pass defender and he misses a lot tackles in space.
With that said, I think Horton can blitz him a lot. I think he will be very effective at blitzing w/his straight line speed, size, and strength. I can see him making a lot of big plays and being a disruptive force in Horton's attacking style of defense.
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Any coach in the NFL is gonna do both.
Horton does like to use press coverage a lot, Making it even more vital for to get Milliner for his defense. Milliner fits perfectly in his scheme. He's big for a corner, fast 4.3 speed and supports the run very well.
Milliner may just be the highest rated CB in this draft but many could argue he's NOT the best fit for a defense that thrives on their Corner's playing up on the LOS.
It's well known fact that Bama doesn't have Corners that are required to play tight and have to turn and run out of a backpedal. That ain't easy to learn and is much more natural than anything. Milliner doesn't have the most fluid hips for a Corner.
I'm not sure on Trufant and Banks, but I am sure about Milliner and Rhodes.
We're in a sticky situation if Milliner's gone and we like him. We cannot move down very far and expect Rhodes to be there. I'm talking the likes of the Jets if they move Revis and Tampa.
Milliner would be an OK pick up if he's there at 6 and we like him but the dream draft set up would be moving down to Miami's slot so they can get a LT and we land Rhodes for Miami's 2nd rounder.
Back that up with Eric Reid FS and Travis Kelce TE, two spots we haven't hit in FA and NEED on this team.
And VERS. The key to us beginning a playoff run lies solely on our Division record. I don't care about Balt signing Dummerville and the FS they got to replace Reed. They have been decimated on defense like no other team in the recent past. Flacco or no Flacco.
And Pitt isn't much better off losing Wallace, Lewis and Harrison. Hampton won't be resigned and Keisel's 35 going into this season. And we all know that Cincy is nowhere near to a dominant team. The tides turning heavily toward Cleveland and Cincy in this division.
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The best blitz for the Browns over the last 2-3 years had been the occasions when they get either Young and a linebacker blitzing on the same side, or Patterson and a linebacker from the same side.
They get a matchup that asks the Qb to step up in the pocket, or leave the pocket, either way he's going right into one player or the other, or getting hit from behind. It only works on occasion when they get a certain matchup.
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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All I really know right now are two things.
1. Attack
2. Little guys that can hit.
From there I would like to see what is to come exactly. So mentally I'm starting with the above n looking to build on that foundation. 
JMHO - walk before running.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
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All I really know right now are two things.
1. Attack
2. Little guys that can hit.
From there I would like to see what is to come exactly. So mentally I'm starting with the above n looking to build on that foundation.
JMHO - walk before running.
I believe the exact quote was Big Men that can Run and Little Men that can Hit.
Horton made it pretty clear that he runs an attacking D and that the blitz can come from just about anywhere at anytime.
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Vers, I said it the day we got Horton, Ward will be a pro bowler if he can stay healthy. He was made for this defense.
kwhip the biggest loss imho for the Ravens wasn't Ed Reed, Ray Lewis or Paul Kruger but Boldin. He is the guy that has beat us. We would play flawless coverage on him and he would make the catch that either flat out beat us or kept the chains moving.
Even with those defensive hall of famers leaving, the D was already slipping and Kruger carried the D through the playoffs. I think if Horton can get our guys buying into his system, we will be competing for the division this year.
I think the offense under Norv and Chud could be very surprising. I am probably in the slimmest minority but I am very excited to see what these kids can do in the new scheme.
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Quote:
Quote:
Any coach in the NFL is gonna do both.
Horton does like to use press coverage a lot, Making it even more vital for to get Milliner for his defense. Milliner fits perfectly in his scheme. He's big for a corner, fast 4.3 speed and supports the run very well.
Milliner may just be the highest rated CB in this draft but many could argue he's NOT the best fit for a defense that thrives on their Corner's playing up on the LOS.
It's well known fact that Bama doesn't have Corners that are required to play tight and have to turn and run out of a backpedal. That ain't easy to learn and is much more natural than anything. Milliner doesn't have the most fluid hips for a Corner.
I'm not sure on Trufant and Banks, but I am sure about Milliner and Rhodes.
Until now I accepted the concensus among fans and media experts about Milliner and had not looked at him closely. After your post I went and watched some game footage. I see a parodox about his play. He is considered the best prospect at his position but does not display a NFL backpedal that is considered a fundamental for the position. Instead, he employs a 60 degree stance where he's peeking into the backfield. Particularly in press coverage at the snap he takes a couple of back pedal steps and immediately turns to run with the WR. This was the oddest thing I saw in his game. When he attempts to bump he is often successful with it. I won't pretend to understand the nuances of a good back pedal or why it is valued as highly as it seems to be. In any case you are right he does'nt display it. I am concerned about his reliance/tendency of looking in at the backfield at the snap of the ball.
To be fair, the other aspects of his game were good to very good.
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Instead, he employs a 60 degree stance where he's peeking into the backfield.
Horton just might see that as a positive rather than a negative 
JMHO
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Quote:
. I see a parodox about his play. He is considered the best prospect at his position but does not display a NFL backpedal that is considered a fundamental for the position. Instead, he employs a 60 degree stance where he's peeking into the backfield. Particularly in press coverage at the snap he takes a couple of back pedal steps and immediately turns to run with the WR. This was the oddest thing I saw in his game. When he attempts to bump he is often successful with it. I won't pretend to understand the nuances of a good back pedal or why it is valued as highly as it seems to be. In any case you are right he does'nt display it. I am concerned about his reliance/tendency of looking in at the backfield at the snap of the ball.
To be fair, the other aspects of his game were good to very good.
Yeah Guard I am seeing that more and more, with the 60 degree or so look on the corners.
I asked my son why in High school ball they had him start aligning like that and he says it was to be beter able to respond and change cover assignments when a man goes in motion, seeing so many spread offenes where they run the same formation with the same motion and either handing ball to motion or faking it and passing I can sort of understand it.
They want to be able to switch on demand to a cover 3 or if in a widen cover two to allow CB's to cover more of the 10 yard out area.
Of course much depends on the type of zone ( cover 1,2,3 with LB stacked or spread) vs man to man ( press, or playing off).
Not a big fan of the peek regardless of alignment, but we are seeing that more and more as well. I guess i should clarify... a peek is ok, a stare is problematic, not unluck a QB staring at a receiver.
IMO while the backpadel is important, in that one has to keep himself over his his (but not on his toes) and not on his heels, the real test of a good CB is his ability to plant the off foot and come out of the backpedelor spin and run with the WR and 1) no lose his mometum and 2) keep himself on the hip of the WR. It is equally important for a CB to be able to recover from the WR break off of a route with his closing speed and therefore his ability to go from zero to top speed in just a few steps.
These movements come from a solid / flexible core and that is why fluid hips is more important that anything.
All JMO, I am sure others can add stuff.
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Horton does want a ballhawk type FS..we don't have one and haven't had one in years.
Time to get one this year.
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I'm still smelling a one year contract after the draft for Woodson
Jmho n sense of smell...lol 
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We don't sign players from Michigan.
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I think that would have been only for WRs...lol
Always love Leroy Hoard in college - so happy when we drafted him.
Back in the Day...Mich was known as DB U as Penn State was known as LB U.
Although he hasn't played FS...he probably is the best FA FS out there. The kid from Buffalo was younger. I don't think we would invest for an older player as a rule of thumb that Banner does. But after the draft - if need prevails I can see a ONE YEAR contract n I don't think he would wish to sign a longer deal with us...unless we stud out as a team.
So he might sign with us one year as a Show Me at FS so he can pursue his career at the NEW position...just my thinking. I would like a Vet like him calling our coverages...let alone his natural ball hawking skills.
JMHO
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obviously, I jest. See my avatar.  and by the way, he started 8 games at SS for them last year.
Last edited by clevesteve; 04/02/13 11:37 AM.
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Quote:
Yeah Guard I am seeing that more and more, with the 60 degree or so look on the corners.
Texas, that was good stuff, thanks
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I am surprised Horton hasn't gone after Rhodes ... 
John 3:16 Jesus said "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
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I am surprised Horton hasn't gone after Rhodes ...
Who's to say he hasn't though?
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Quote:
Quote:
I am surprised Horton hasn't gone after Rhodes ...
Who's to say he hasn't though?
If thats true, then what is Rhodes thinking doesn't seem like he is being sought after that hard ... JMHO
John 3:16 Jesus said "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
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There are a ton of veteran players still out there. Rhodes shouldn't be in a hurry.
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Rhodes is kinda overrated. He's good at times and bad at times. And I've also read that he's a prima donna/locker room cancer.
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Rhodes is an above-average starting free safety. He had two of his better years under Ray Horton.
I haven't heard anything about him being a locker room cancer. If you had a link showing that I would love to see it.
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You referenced something that bloviator Rex Ryan said about a guy because he modeled and acted. Can anything Rex Ryan says be taken seriously?
You also referenced an article in which Dockett attacked Rhodes and was fined $100,000. Rhodes wasn't fined anything. Rhodes wanted to follow the coaches orders and Dockett didn't.
There is nothing there that shows me that Rhodes is bad in the locker room or a loafer.
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Can anything Rex Ryan says be taken seriously?
Point made right there. IMO that guy is a joke and a fool. But hey, i'm not paying him money to make my company look stupid =] and look at the circus they have at QB. What they trying out five QBs now or something?
Totally pathetic.
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"But there is concern that Rhodes, who has the nickname “Hollywood,” may not fit into a tight-knit locker room. Several players told The Star-Ledger in November that Rhodes wasn’t exactly a popular figure among his teammates. He didn't see "eye to eye'' with defensive coordinator Mike Pettine, either."
Stuff like that doesn't make you think that the guy might not be so well-liked amongst his teammates?
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No. That happened one time several years ago. Rhodes also loves Horton. Non-issue.
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No. That happened one time several years ago. Rhodes also loves Horton. Non-issue.
I agree that it's most likely a non-issue, which is why debating about it is stupid. Just proving that the guy hasn't always been a saint in the locker room, as you requested.
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That didn't prove anything.
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