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Quote:
I think you are missing the mark totally.
And I think too many of you guys are more worried about proving you are right and others are wrong than you are about talking football. Sheesh, it's freaking annoying. I said, he said, she said, etc. Enough! Do you really wanna go back and examine the past and right and wrong w/me? Really?
Who gives a rat's butt about who was talking about a massive rebuild? I was never part of that conversation and could care less. All I care about is how we are going to improve this team. There are still a lot of holes to fill. It won't be done in a year.
Why don't you put your freaking egos aside and just talk football? Would that be okay? I tried and I get that crap from you and Dj as a response. It's almost not worth the effort to even try and talk football. It's all about "sides" w/you guys. Heck, I criticized the new FO in my post and Dj still gives me a hard time because I dared to say negatives about Heckert. What a joke!
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2nd String
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QB: Weeden deserves another chance based on there not being anyone in the draft this year. I'd say high-80s QB rating, a little under 4,000 yards, low-7s YPA, and low-60s completion percentage are the threshold for whether he should be viewed as Cleveland's franchise QB or not. I know some people think these stats are completely out of the realm of possibility with Weeden, but I don't think those people understand how much success Norv/Chud have had with their vertical systems with offensive supporting casts that aren't nearly as good as this one.
RB: Way above-average rotation. I think Norv is going to run it 300+ times this year with Richardson because logic says the #3 overall pick should be a stud. Keep in mind LT had a crappy rookie season too (although LT's offensive line was horrendous).
WR: If Weeden ends up being decent, they're 2010-era Desean Jackson (Gordan) and Jeremy Maclin (Little). If Weeden sucks again, they're just Gordon and Little. They have the tools, they just need a QB.
TE: Cameron being the starter is kind of a headscratcher, but I have trust in Chud considering he's had great success with Gates and Olsen, and was the only person to have success with Winslow Jr.
T: Best duo in the business.
G: They're good enough.
C: Stud.
DL: Basically the best 3-4 defensive line in all of football, both in terms of depth and starters.
ILB: Cutting Gocong was a great move. SILB is honestly one of the easiest positions in the NFL to find competent players at. DQ will be fine; the transition between ILBs switching from 3-4s to 4-3s and vice-versa is overstated.
OLB: Kruger, Sheard, and Groves are okay. I think Kruger's going to be fine from a pass-rushing perspective (Horton is incredibly creative which makes up for no more Suggs double-teams), but he's horrible at sealing the edge on running plays, which makes me nervous about this team's run defense with him penciled as a starter. But overall, I think Horton did incredibly well in Arizona with an OLB group worse than this one.
CB: Y'all already know I think the Browns should have signed a FA here. It's either draft Milliner or have the guy across from Haden being burned for most of the year IMO. Rhodes isn't going to step-in and be a good starter immediately and he'd require a trade-down IMO as well.
FS: They really need to draft or sign someone obviously. I don't think whoever they're bringing in is going to be anything more than mediocre.
SS: Ward should excel in Horton's system.
The only reservation I have about the defense is that Horton's system is kinda complicated and Arizona struggled with it at times throughout his first year coaching there.
...
Still, I don't know why some posters are so negative here. This team has some talent and coaches who have excelled in this league with teams who had less talent.
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Legend
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Steve
There is not One Brown on this team that was here in 2009
Except for the following: Joe T, DQ, Rubin n Mack Pretty decent quality btw. n why they are here.
All the rest are 2010 to Present:
Its hard to explain how bad these kids are when NONE of them have anything to do with the Long Futile History.
Now we have a new owner, new HC, New CEO, New GM n New OC DC...
You can say of course - This is insanity why expect any different results.
But It is a new beginning. Young team only carry overs have very good talent.
New Ownership does promise Continuity...to be seen of course.
Misery is never a REASON of WE SUCK...Football logic yes, We have been pitiful in the past does not guarantee us as Crapola.
JMHO then again I'm considered a Homer 
Trust me there are more of you here than me 
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Legend
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I like our coaching staff, but too many people are acting like all of Weeden's issues will magically disappear because of Chud and Norv. They are acting like our offense will all of a sudden become productive.
How did San Diego's offense fare last year? I thought they were terrible? Am I mistaken? Was Carolina a high-powered offense? Were the Browns?
I think the new coaches will help. I really do. However, too many people are overestimating just how much of a difference they can make. We need more talent. I doubt we are going to be very goodas long as Weeden is our qb. I could be wrong about that and I hope I am. We'll see.
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Legend
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Quote:
I like our coaching staff, but too many people are acting like all of Weeden's issues will magically disappear because of Chud and Norv. They are acting like our offense will all of a sudden become productive.
How did San Diego's offense fare last year? I thought they were terrible? Am I mistaken? Was Carolina a high-powered offense? Were the Browns?
I think the new coaches will help. I really do. However, too many people are overestimating just how much of a difference they can make. We need more talent. I doubt we are going to be very goodas long as Weeden is our qb. I could be wrong about that and I hope I am. We'll see.
Idk I think Weeden won't improve and it won't be the coaches fault. Just a can't make chicken salad outta chicken crap odreal.
I do think the offense will improve though. San Deigo didn't have a great offense but with Chud and Norv combined, you'd be silly IMO to not have some "faith" in the matter.
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Ford parts don't fit on a Chevy but that doesn't mean the part was bad :P. Weeden in no way fit the WCO, everyone knew that minus Holmgren and Heckert who tried to convince us as well as themselves that the system he ran was similar lol
As for Norv in SD, the line was horrible and Rivers had dead arm although most in the media continue to make excuses for his inability to throw a 15 yard strike. Rest may help but something was majorly wrong.
As for Carolina, I think Chud managed to squeeze every ounce of talent out of Cam. He is a mobile version of Derek Anderson. Like we talked about in another post, I think as bad as weeden was he is still more accurate than those 2, which isnt saying much I know.
It is just that if there is any chance at all for Weeden to be a successful NFL QB, this is it. Terrific OL, Richardson and Hardesty, Gordon and Little with Norv and Chud guiding him in an offense built specifically for him. There will be no excuses after this year. We will know pretty quickly, possibly before training camp is over.
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2nd String
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Quote:
I like our coaching staff, but too many people are acting like all of Weeden's issues will magically disappear because of Chud and Norv. They are acting like our offense will all of a sudden become productive.
I think the point is that Weeden's issues are all coachable (a lot of them are anticipation-related), and that Shumur's scheme and playcalling deliberately put Weeden in the position to fail. Fortunately, Norv/Chud are 100000x the coach that Shurmur is, in terms of scheme, playcalling, and player development. Of course, their ability to help him improve does predicate on whether or not Weeden has a good work ethic. If he doesn't have that good work ethic, he's going to fail. But Norv/Chud have repeatedly proven that if the QB is willing to put in the work, and if the right supporting cast is in place (like it is here in Cleveland) — he's going to play well.
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How did San Diego's offense fare last year? I thought they were terrible? Am I mistaken?
The offense was horrible last year because we had the second-worst offensive line in the league with a scheme that inherently requires a good offensive line (vertical offenses require good offensive lines), ran by an incredibly inflexible coach (Norv). Rivers was under pressure every snap, but Norv insisted upon having all his WRs thirty yards downfield; causing Rivers to get sacked, throw it away, or dump-it-off to his running backs. The running game was also horrible because of the offensive line, and because Mathews gave up on the team.
The Cleveland offense has none of these issues. They have the offensive line that's good enough to allow for slow-developing, vertical passing plays without Weeden getting killed.
BTW: San Diego was ranked 5th, 2nd, 4th, 2nd, and tied for 5th in offensive points scored for every other year under Norv.
Norv is a fantastic offensive mind, IF his offensive line isn't horrible.
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Was Carolina a high-powered offense?
They were tied for 5th in scoring in 2011 with rookie Cam Newton. They regressed in 2012 because their offensive line became worse (these vertical passing schemes really require good offensive lines), and because Chud became obsessed with running the read-option with Cam during the first part of the season. Once Chud gave up on the read-option (which I'm not sure why he introduced in the first place), the offense's productivity went up considerably.
Again luckily for the Browns, they don't have to worry about issues like this considering Chud can't be tempted to run the read-option with Weeden, and because Cleveland has an offensive line that's conducive to a vertical-passing system.
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I think the new coaches will help. I really do. However, too many people are overestimating just how much of a difference they can make. We need more talent. I doubt we are going to be very goodas long as Weeden is our qb. I could be wrong about that and I hope I am. We'll see.
Coaches are pretty much just as important as the players IMO. There are coaches here that have excelled in the NFL with far less talent than Cleveland has now. Those 2008-2011 Chargers squads and 2011 Panthers squads didn't have much offensive talent at all (the 2007 Chargers had a lot of talent which is why I left them out), but they were still top-five offensive units in the league because Norv and Chud are the best in the business at putting their players in the position to succeed.
Their play designs and playcalling just seem to work for lack of a more eloquent term.
EDIT: They work, IF they have the proper offensive line in place.
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Practice Squad
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Nice post from a different perspective. I believe coaching IS a big issue. Maybe I'm seeing the glass half full because I really despised Shurmar's offense for our Browns team  We all realize we won't get anywhere we want w/o some continuity, now we have a system I feel we can believe in. 
If I only knew then what I know today...
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Legend
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I second that. Well done.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
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powder, you do realize I know all of that about San Diego and Carolina? Heck, I said much the same thing on another post and asked you to back me up. Remember that? I made the point about San Diego, Carolina, and Cleveland's offenses because you need talent to win. I think you guys are overestimating how much a coach can do, and this is coming from a long time coach. I thought I was a great coach, but I knew that my record would have sucked if the kids didn't have talent and did not buy into what I was saying. Coaches can put players into position to win the games but ultimately, players win the games. I'm sorry, but I just don't see all the offensive talent on this team that most of you do. QB: Weeden will improve because he may not be worried about throwing as many picks. I think Shurmur handcuffed the kid last year when he repeatedly got on him about not throwing picks. I was the first to point that out on the other board when the article came out. He will also improve because he'll be in the shotgun more. The vertical stretch should help him some, although I thought his deep passes were lacking accuracy. We also have to hope he won't check down as often. On the negative side, I think he can get better at reading defenses pre-snap provided he lives in the film room, but it's tough to improve at reading coverages post snap. You can, but things move fast and it appears the game moves too fast for BW. Anticipation is a gift. It can be improved by doing a lot of extra work w/your receivers after practice, but it's just a gift in regards to knowing what defenders will do. Pocket presence? He was uncomfortable in college when pressured and he was downright scared last year. He doesn't have a good sense of the rush and doesn't stand in there like tough qbs. I went to a couple of games and it amazing how many open guys Weeden does not see. Coaching can't help w/that stuff. Unknown: Did he hold the ball too long because he was afraid to throw the pick or because he couldn't read coverages? I think it was both, so he should improve. It just won't be dramatically. RB: TRich is not bad, but he isn't great. I would say he is solid. Certainly not worth the 3rd overall pick in the draft. The guy is strong, tough, has good hands, plays hard, and is versatile. However, his field vision and instincts are severely lacking. He dances way too much behind the LOS. He is not decisive. He lacks explosion. I know I will be getting a ton of excuses for the guy, but I am just telling you all that he sought out contact, so the rib injury excuse loses its validity. He dances because he lacks instincts and is not decisive. I really think people don't realize how great Alabama's OL was and is. TRich could not beat out Ingram. The latter hasn't exactly taken the NFL by storm. Heck, he doesn't even start for NO. Lacey picked up right where Ingram and TRich left off. The Flowers kid also looked sensational. Anyone can run through gigantic holes. I am not saying any of those guys stink, but a GREAT RB can make something out of nothing. TRich does not do that. His dancing behind the LOS drives me nuts. Wide Receivers: Two big, strong, fairly fast guys. Look good in the airport and getting off the bus. They have some talent and can make big plays. However, they are green. I don't see them making sight adjustments and hot reads. I don't see precise route running. I don't see them understanding how to exploit the holes in the zone. I see two athletes who make plays w/the physicality but miss out on many more plays because they are not crafty and intelligent. TE: Huge question mark. Right now, if a publication was rating TE's, we might be last on the list. FB: Maracic should not be in the NFL. Smelly didn't impress during his short stint. The best blocker--Alex Smith--was let go. Summary: I see some talent out there. I see some potential for growth. However, I don't see all the talent that you guys do. This group has rarely even showed signs of being decent and were statistically inept. You guys can blame it ALL on coaching, but I know better. Again, I do think coaching and the outdated version of the WCO was a major problem, but I also think lack of talent is an issue. Additionally, you can have talent, but that doesn't always translate into success. For example, K2 and Leon had a ton of talent. They are both now has-beens that were major disappointments. And here is something funny------I used to argue w/a bunch of these guys about how poor our coaching was and how antiquated The Big Show's version of the WCO was. They ripped me for saying those things, now these are the same guys who are claiming how much better we will be because we switched coaches and offenses. 
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All Pro
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I see a lot of roster assessments here. Lots to agree with and disagree with. On expectations from a 5-11 team...
So far, I only see 2 guys that are better than what we had last year. Kruger and Bryant. Perhaps Campbell if he even hits the field. These moves are offset b/c we have lost A handful of starters gone from a very thin roster. Again, here's a (most likely ignored) disclosure before you guys label me...Understandable moves by the front office... but something I choose to factor in with my 2013 expectations.
If there's any significant improvement from our perpetual 5-11 team, we'll need better coaching (Chud is a rookie) and a "leap" from the youth.
Just as folks love to throw out "Don't panic!" I say "don't get carried away." Kruger and Bryant are only 2 guys.
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Some if the others went into detail...I saw your post , I just didn't respond to it yet.
I don't agree with some things.
QB- Weeden is the starter, I keep saying if his brain and instincts are good, he will be better. Thats it.
Hardesty-it takes 2 years to come back after knee surgery..he was never a stud, so limit expectations.
WR-work in progress, but it will be addressed..I do like Gordon but he's a not a favorite with Banner/Lombardi.
OG-They are not satisfied with the interior blocking and they shouldn't be..too many times DT's/LBs just blew up the backfield coming in the middle.
OLB???? They solidified that a lot on both sides. It's the interior that lacks a hammer-type . They have some young speedy guys but they have to prove their worth.
CB/S..we need a viable starter opposite Haden..I'm a bit annoyed they didn't act fast enough to grab a FA corner and FS..Now they must address it in the draft.
U said Dline has 7-8 studs? No..and even if they did, they won't keep all of them..34 teams carry 6-7 Dlinemen and stash one or two on the PS.
The linebackers are where these type of teams load up.
The draft and rest of FA will see how they continue to build this thing.
Those in here who know me know how I feel about the draft..Heckert did some good things and he missed on others, yet Holmy interfering messed some things up.
Lombardi (The lighting rod) will need some thunder in this draft to help the upward swing.
I think they can do it IF they don't get cute and outthink themselves.
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All Pro
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don't get cute .
Don't know if you were doing it intentionally, but That was Heckert's draft motto. 
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Quote:
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don't get cute .
Don't know if you were doing it intentionally, but That was Heckert's draft motto.
Good catch 
If Lombardi is indeed a "lightning rod" and can't even be shown to the media, what will he be like when the Browns are otc? How will a "lightning rod" "perform" under pressure? Usually exactly those kind of characters DO get cute and outthink themselves...and it's not like he doesn't have a history of doing exactly that
Yeah, I'm already in limbo-mode regarding my draft day expectation 
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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No. wasn't intentional.. I did have issues with Heckerts style of drafting in some areas.
Of course I didn't like the way he moved around(up) to get a player and give up so much to do it.
I understand some of the criticism leved at him in how he was building the team..U build to make a consistant winner, not just select good players.
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Legend
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Either this FO thinks very highly of the young palyers they inherited or they're doing exactly what posters criticize Heckert for (little in FA and built through the draft)...applauding the "restraint" of this FO and bashing the past is hypocritical imho. Maybe they "continue" what's being built, but no matter who the GM was this FA, I would have liked more starting caliber players
A lot of times people on here get confused because some people loved the last regime and others were very critical, some people have faith in this regime others are more skeptical... so it's easy to say that people are hypocrits because some loved the last regime and don't like this one who is acting much the same way... but is it the same people? I don't know.
As for why I do not necessarily think it's hypocritical to have applauded Heckert for sitting rather still in FA but expecting this regime to do more is simple.. we have more talent than we had then. Almost everybody agreed that you build through the draft...... then, at some point, when you have a good solid talent base you can go after selected FAs.. It is very possible that some people believe that in adding Haden, Ward, Little, Schwartz, Weeden, Gordon, Taylor, and a few others that we had filled our immediate "young talent needs" and we were now in a better position to go after a couple higher priced FAs so they are justified in feeling a bit disappointed this year, where as they were not disappointed in the last few years...
It's also possible that people see the change in scheme and felt that we could make that transition quicker by adding a couple of experienced (higher priced) free agents...
So for a person to say, "We sat still then and I applauded it but we are sitting still now and I'm disappointed" may, on it's surface appear hypocritical... there can be perfectly valid reasons behind it... because circumstances are different than they were then.
yebat' Putin
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Of course I didn't like the way he moved around(up) to get a player and give up so much to do it.
I don't mind moving up if the GM is 100% sold on someone as an impact playmaker. Thinking of BAL trading w/us for Ngata. 
And while I liked Heckert's drafts overall, I agree on his trade-ups. He gave up too much for some players that probably would have been there for us anyhow.
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2nd String
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Well then we'll agree to disagree then?
The other thing I want to mention is last year, the Colts and Vikings both had less talent than this current Browns team and still made the POs. So it's not out of the realm of possibility. I know some people here are apathetic and all — but things in this league can turn around quickly.
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I think you mis-understood me, as what you wrote pretty much sums up my stance...and yes, you're right, there are tons of reasons why THEN it made sense and now not so much.
I criticize those who bashed Heckert for not doing enough in FA and now are happy wiht the "restraint" of this FO....not many poster, but there are some. Just pointing out the inconsistency in logic and reasoning
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Legend
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Quote:
Quote:
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don't get cute .
Don't know if you were doing it intentionally, but That was Heckert's draft motto.
Good catch
If Lombardi is indeed a "lightning rod" and can't even be shown to the media, what will he be like when the Browns are otc? How will a "lightning rod" "perform" under pressure? Usually exactly those kind of characters DO get cute and outthink themselves...and it's not like he doesn't have a history of doing exactly that
Yeah, I'm already in limbo-mode regarding my draft day expectation
Again, you are acting like once we are on the clock Lombardi goes rogue and starts selecting who he wants. We have been told we will more or less go with consesus picks. I believe that. What consensus means is open for debate. I don't think it has to be 100% of those making the final call. We could even debate who is in on the final decisions. I am sure Chud, Banner and Lombardi are. The other talent guy, his name escapes me probably is, and maybe one more...that's five people. You don't need more than that.
To me there isn't much pressure when on the clock. You have your board set...at the point the team in front of you is drafting you have target A and target B. If they select A, you go with B.
There might be some pressure if you are seriously considering trading up or someone calls you wanting to trade for your pick. My guess is very few trades just come out of the blue without at least some discussion before the draft. At least for trades made in the first 2-3 rounds. By the 6th round a team may decide they want a player and you get a 1st time call when you are on the clock.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
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don't get cute .
Don't know if you were doing it intentionally, but That was Heckert's draft motto.
Good catch
If Lombardi is indeed a "lightning rod" and can't even be shown to the media, what will he be like when the Browns are otc? How will a "lightning rod" "perform" under pressure? Usually exactly those kind of characters DO get cute and outthink themselves...and it's not like he doesn't have a history of doing exactly that
Yeah, I'm already in limbo-mode regarding my draft day expectation
Again, you are acting like once we are on the clock Lombardi goes rogue and starts selecting who he wants. We have been told we will more or less go with consesus picks. I believe that. What consensus means is open for debate. I don't think it has to be 100% of those making the final call. We could even debate who is in on the final decisions. I am sure Chud, Banner and Lombardi are. The other talent guy, his name escapes me probably is, and maybe one more...that's five people. You don't need more than that.
To me there isn't much pressure when on the clock. You have your board set...at the point the team in front of you is drafting you have target A and target B. If they select A, you go with B.
There might be some pressure if you are seriously considering trading up or someone calls you wanting to trade for your pick. My guess is very few trades just come out of the blue without at least some discussion before the draft. At least for trades made in the first 2-3 rounds. By the 6th round a team may decide they want a player and you get a 1st time call when you are on the clock.
I think you are right on the money there Peen.
When you are consistently picking in the top 10, it's pretty simple to create a mock draft with every possible scenario of every player you might even remotely want...especially in a weak-at-the-top draft like this one.
If it were a strong draft...and we were picking...say 15th...there is certainly a possibility that a player would be available that we did not expect to be there for us. THAT'S when we will see what kind of consensus we truly have with these guys.
But THIS year with THIS draft and THIS team...we better not be surprised at who is available at #6... no matter who goes where with the 5 choices before us.
We should know RIGHT NOW who our choice is with the #6 pick - having already developed every scenario of who might be available at #6. It's just a matter of looking at the board(s) and saying..."well...so-and-so happens to be there at #6 and he's the guy we've said for months that we'd take if he's available...and he's available...what's to discuss?"
Did that make sense?
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The panic call still happens but not as often. 2 years ago, it was late feb-early march when we started hearing of the FAlcons and Browns talking trade. We started hearing Browns and 49ers talking at the owners meeting a couple weeks ago, which that was likely the McCoy trade but the rumblings are still out there. Really, I think it is more of teams are just more comfortable talking to each other early on. Hell we now see trades within the same division. Anyway I have been a huge proponent of building our brand before trying to add a bunch of free agents that are all about the money. I think the way the players reacted to Hillis and the way they stood up last year when things werent going good just says that we now have a strong locker and real team leaders. I wanted cautious spending in free agency with the main focus on resigning our own. I hate that we didnt get Phil but hey Heckert had been trying for 3 years to get an extension with him. With the market slowing, I think you can now add some quality parts on the cheap. Guys like Fujita, Young, Gocong, were borrowed players anyway. Cribbs has been burning bridges since he got his big contract. Anyway here is what is left in free agency  Outside Linebacker Michael Boley (WLB in 4-3) Shaun Phillips (OLB in 3-4) James Harrison (OLB in 3-4) Daryl Smith (SLB in 4-3) Calvin Pace (OLB in 3-4) Leroy Hill (WLB/SLB in 4-3) Thomas Howard (WLB in 4-3) Will Witherspoon (WLB/MLB in 4-3) Rocky McIntosh (WLB in 4-3) Bryan Thomas (OLB in 3-4) Chris Gocong (OLB in 3-4/ILB in 3-4/SLB in 4-3) Mario Haggan (SLB in 4-3) Scott Fujita (SLB in 4-3) Keith Brooking (WLB/MLB in 4-3) Andy Studebaker (OLB in 3-4/SLB in 4-3) Clint Session (WLB/SLB in 4-3) Aaron Curry (SLB/WLB in 4-3) Zac Diles (WLB in 4-3) Akeem Jordan (SLB/WLB in 4-3) Scott Shanle (WLB in 4-3) Tracy White (SLB in 4-3) Clark Haggans (OLB in 3-4) Bobby Carpenter (SLB in 4-3, ILB in 3-4) Matt McCoy (WLB in 4-3, ILB in 3-4) Chris Wilson (OLB in 3-4) Jamaal Westerman (OLB in 3-4) Xavier Adibi Gerald McRath Kyle Bosworth Brady Poppinga (OLB in 3-4) Jesse Nading Brandon Williams Justin Cole Safety Dawan Landry Kerry Rhodes Charles Woodson Gerald Sensabaugh Quintin Mikell Sherrod Martin Atari Bigby Jordan Babineaux Jim Leonard Madieu Williams Ronde Barber Erik Coleman Abram Elam Usuama Young Charlie Peprah Eric Smith Chris Crocker Darian Stewart Danny McCray/Dallas Cowboys (RFA) Jeromy Miles/Cincinnati Bengals (RFA) Quintin Demps Chris Hope James Sanders Sean Considine Corey Lynch Matt Giordano Josh Barrett Troy Nolan Eric Frampton Tyrone Culver Ray Ventrone Derrick Martin Chris Maragos/Seattle Seahawks (RFA) Nate Ness Cornerback Antoine Winfield Quentin Jammer Mike Jenkins Shawntae Spencer Sheldon Brown Terrence McGee Sam Shields/Green Bay Packers (RFA) Drew Coleman Rashean Mathis Cedric Griffin Nate Clements Stanford Routt Will Allen Marcus Trufant Chris Carr Joselio Hanson Ryan Mouton A.J. Jefferson/Minnesota Vikings (RFA) Jacob Lacey Elbert Mack Michael Coe Justin Tryon Brandon McDonald Tramaine Brock/San Francisco 49ers (RFA) Michael Adams Bruce Johnson Travis Daniels William Middleton Brian Witherspoon web page
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 75,232
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 75,232 |
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And I think too many of you guys are more worried about proving you are right and others are wrong than you are about talking football. Sheesh, it's freaking annoying. I said, he said, she said, etc. Enough! Do you really wanna go back and examine the past and right and wrong w/me? Really?
Who gives a rat's butt about who was talking about a massive rebuild? I was never part of that conversation and could care less. All I care about is how we are going to improve this team. There are still a lot of holes to fill. It won't be done in a year.
Why don't you put your freaking egos aside and just talk football? Would that be okay? I tried and I get that crap from you and Dj as a response. It's almost not worth the effort to even try and talk football. It's all about "sides" w/you guys. Heck, I criticized the new FO in my post and Dj still gives me a hard time because I dared to say negatives about Heckert. What a joke!
Wow! Is that how you talk football?
I actually agreed with you that these personnel moves should have been made and there will be many more to come. That players who do not fit the new O and D schemes will be shipped out.
And this is your response? And it's you who says I don't wish to talk football?
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 35
Rookie
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Rookie
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Posts: 35 |
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Well then we'll agree to disagree then?
The other thing I want to mention is last year, the Colts and Vikings both had less talent than this current Browns team and still made the POs. So it's not out of the realm of possibility. I know some people here are apathetic and all — but things in this league can turn around quickly.
The Colts play in a weak divison. The Vikings play in a stronger division because of The Packers, but really the lions and bears arent the Ravens and Steelers. It will take a lot more for us to overtake our division as we have the Steelers, Ravens and Bengals, all whom are dangerous any given sunday. Are they invincible? No, they can be beat but we will have to be on our A game to stand a chance week-in and week-out. We've gotta take this divison, somehow, if we ever want to be in the playoffs.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 75,232
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 75,232 |
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Again, you are acting like once we are on the clock Lombardi goes rogue and starts selecting who he wants. We have been told we will more or less go with consesus picks. I believe that. What consensus means is open for debate. I don't think it has to be 100% of those making the final call. We could even debate who is in on the final decisions. I am sure Chud, Banner and Lombardi are. The other talent guy, his name escapes me probably is, and maybe one more...that's five people. You don't need more than that.
Well we do have a track record from Lombardi to look at. And I agree that the picture of how this consensus works is very foggy to decipher. When you combine those two factors alone, I think it's reasonable to understand the concern of so many.
When you have a new owner who resigned from being CEO of a truck stop chain and dedicate himself to being hands on, then he turns right around and takes that exact same job back in only a very short period of time, I think it's reasonable for this to be seen as a very mixed message.
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To me there isn't much pressure when on the clock. You have your board set...at the point the team in front of you is drafting you have target A and target B. If they select A, you go with B.
I agree with this to a certain extent. Only last year, immediately following the new rookie pay structure, we saw an immense amount of trading in round 1. A lot of people on the phones with last minute moves the likes of which I never recall ever seeing especially early in a draft. So I do think the entire process has more curves thrown in than ever before.
Once again, I believe one must consider that we witness Banner/Haslam hire a guy in Lombardi with a TERRIBLE draft record and it brings their thought process into question.
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There might be some pressure if you are seriously considering trading up or someone calls you wanting to trade for your pick. My guess is very few trades just come out of the blue without at least some discussion before the draft. At least for trades made in the first 2-3 rounds. By the 6th round a team may decide they want a player and you get a 1st time call when you are on the clock.
Here I think we disagree. Often times I don't think a team has any idea if they feel there is a "need to trade up" until they see the tendancies in the draft. Runs at certain positions may very well dictate a team make a trade where as they had no clue they would need to do so going into the draft.
I think the new rookie salary structure has changed the nature of the draft a great deal, and my confidence in Lombardi/Banner aren't high to say the least. I don't really think that logic is as off base as some would like to make it seem. (not meaning you per say)
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 343
2nd String
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2nd String
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 343 |
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Well then we'll agree to disagree then?
The other thing I want to mention is last year, the Colts and Vikings both had less talent than this current Browns team and still made the POs. So it's not out of the realm of possibility. I know some people here are apathetic and all — but things in this league can turn around quickly.
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The Colts play in a weak divison.
And they went 11-5. Above and beyond what they needed to do to make the POs. In other words, they didn't exactly make it by the skin of their teeth.
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The Vikings play in a stronger division because of The Packers, but really the lions and bears arent the Ravens and Steelers. It will take a lot more for us to overtake our division as we have the Steelers, Ravens and Bengals, all whom are dangerous any given sunday.
Are they invincible? No, they can be beat but we will have to be on our A game to stand a chance week-in and week-out.
Yeah, the Vikings played the 8th toughest schedule in the NFL. Their path to the POs was harder than any of the AFCN teams (Bengals, Steelers, Ravens, Browns) — whose schedules ranked as the 31st, 27th, 21st, and 14th toughest, respectively.
You can focus on divisions all you want, but strength of schedule is the true barometer for how judging how easy Minnesota's path to the POs was compared to the AFCN teams. And the AFCN teams (with the exception of the Browns and Ravens) pretty much had a cupcake path.
Point being, teams with little talent (like Minnesota) can make the POs, even with a tough schedule (tougher than the Browns and the big, bad AFCN last year).
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We've gotta take this divison, somehow, if we ever want to be in the playoffs.
Nah, there's always the Wild Card. Cincinnati knows this.
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 4,544
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
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Cleveland Browns. Quentin Groves, linebacker. The addition of Groves got lost in the Browns' fast start in free agency, when they signed linebacker Paul Kruger and defensive lineman Desmond Bryant. Although Groves won't be a starter like Kruger or Bryant, he will serve an important role behind the scenes. Groves will help in the Browns' transition to Ray Horton's 3-4 defense after playing under him last season in Arizona. It was obvious that Groves clicked with Horton. A 2008 second-round pick by the Jaguars, Groves struggled in his two years in Jacksonville and two years in Oakland. In his first season with Horton, Groves recorded career highs in tackles (46) and sacks (four). He will try to repeat that success for the Browns. http://espn.go.com/blog/afcnorth/post/_/id/68284/eight-in-the-box-under-the-rader-movesdifference between good coaching and not so good.
being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,507
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,507 |
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Cleveland Browns. Quentin Groves, linebacker. The addition of Groves got lost in the Browns' fast start in free agency, when they signed linebacker Paul Kruger and defensive lineman Desmond Bryant. Although Groves won't be a starter like Kruger or Bryant, he will serve an important role behind the scenes. Groves will help in the Browns' transition to Ray Horton's 3-4 defense after playing under him last season in Arizona. It was obvious that Groves clicked with Horton. A 2008 second-round pick by the Jaguars, Groves struggled in his two years in Jacksonville and two years in Oakland. In his first season with Horton, Groves recorded career highs in tackles (46) and sacks (four). He will try to repeat that success for the Browns.
http://espn.go.com/blog/afcnorth/post/_/id/68284/eight-in-the-box-under-the-rader-moves
difference between good coaching and not so good.
In fairness, The Jaguars and Raiders ran a 4-3, and the Cardinals ran a 3-4. It's obvious that Groves is a better fit in the 3-4.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 27,365
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 27,365 |
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I hate that we didnt get Phil but hey Heckert had been trying for 3 years to get an extension with him.
You have that all backwards bro. Phil was never ever offered a long term contract even though he wanted one. 
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499
Legend
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Legend
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46 tackles is great? If anything, that helps prove my point. The guy improved, but certainly did not become a great player because of a new coach.
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 12,635
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 12,635 |
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I hate that we didnt get Phil but hey Heckert had been trying for 3 years to get an extension with him.
You have that all backwards bro. Phil was never ever offered a long term contract even though he wanted one.
Idk, I don't think Phil wanted to be here. He had said his goodbyes before last season was over. I dont think it was a "hatred" with Clv, just him wanting to be a dad/family man. Idc he is the best kicker in the league, and a blue collar guy.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 27,365
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 27,365 |
Trust me Phil wanted to be here. He wanted to retire as a Cleveland Brown.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 343
2nd String
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2nd String
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 343 |
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46 tackles is great? If anything, that helps prove my point. The guy improved, but certainly did not become a great player because of a new coach.
A better example (on defense at least) is someone like Wade Phillips coming to the Texans and the defense going from 4th worst in the league in terms of scoring to 4th best the next year.
And 46 tackles and 4 sacks isn't great, but Quentin Groves isn't great. Getting that much out of a player who's struggled so much throughout his career is great.
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Browns release Gocong and Usama
Young; sign Bogotay (kicker)
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