|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,307
Dawg Talker
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,307 |
Quote:
Quote:
Eotab and Bugs, after years of defending Momass and Robo, when it was clear they weren't good receivers, you guys should just eat your crow, and admit you were WRONG on your assessment.
I still recall phrases like we have the best young receivers in the league, that we had no need for a veteran WR, no need for a #1, etc... when it was clear to all (except to our FO and coaches) that those two were BUSTS.
Just to finish and say that both Momass and Robo couldn't catch, the great hands was a highlight mystification, they both had % off passes caught on the low 40's, which is the sign of a bad WR.
All the luck to Momass with the Jaguars.
You're right! I guess Holmgren, Shurmur, and Heckert were even bigger fools. They not only kept MoMass for two more years they made him a starter! Two head coaches and three OC's need to consult with you on receiver talent evaluation. For a guy who is a bust, how in the world does he make starter let alone the roster.
I'll wave the white flag on Robo. Something happen to him during his second year, He earned the starting job, and by mid season given up. He didn't do anything in Jacksonville to want a starting job.
Holmgren, Heckert and Shurmur weren't fools, they were just STUPID. They had no plan B for the receivers, and they had no skills evaluating receivers, the Julio Jones trade showed it...
I have nothing personal against Momass or Robo ( I actually like Momass has a person) but from the first season it was clear they both had problems and weren't the answer. Time proved me right and you guys wrong....
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,175
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,175 |
Quote:
I wonder who the player in question was?
Quote:
Then, as we agents have to do during the fast-moving free agency period, I told him I would only send the player to Cleveland if they were 99-percent certain they were going to sign him at the numbers I requested.
Really? The player isn't even going to visit unless the team is going to give him everything he wants? I would guess that maybe a player is going to be a main target if he gets a 1st day invite ...... but "we get everything we want or we don't even visit"? That just strikes me as kinda odd. I'm sure that a team has a pretty good idea id a player is going to fit the general parameters of the defense, but the coach has to find out what they are willing to do within the defense, how they see their role, if the player can understand his role within the defense, if he fits from a discipline aspect, if he can get along with the coaching staff, and so on.
Plus, if I recall correctly, Mangini had final say on player decisions in Cleveland ..... so why would Kokinis agree to such a thing without first clearing it with Mangini? That would be a massive overstepping of his power and boundaries.
I agree.
Quote:
A few more hours passed, but there was still no decision from the Browns’ brass. Finally, at about 4:30, they sent the player to the airport with no contract. At that point, I was very pissed because we had just burned a whole day of free agency. I called George and gave him an earful. He was apologetic, but he couldn’t give me a good reason why they didn’t sign the player. I could sense he was very frustrated.
The Browns were obviously never on the same page with this particular free agent and had yet to formulate a way to work together and make decisions. Another agent I spoke to had a similar experience. The signs were there from the beginning that Kokinis had little power and that the team was somewhat rudderless.
Jack gives no details but expected a signed contract if he sent his client. Only thing obvious was Kokinis overstep his authority.
You are absolutely correct Mangini had final say. I loved how Grossi and the national media quoted rules of hiring a GM first before a coach, and how the GM has final say. Even though Grossi said nothing when Banner hired Chud before Lombardi. Nor did the national media get after St. Louis hiring Fisher before hiring Les Snead. They were also mum when Eagles hired Kelly before Howie Roseman. Oh, I almost forgot Chiefs hired their HC before their GM too. Another Media witch hunt. Grossi tried several times to trip Banner into saying GM must have final word. I guess that rule was put to bed!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,175
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,175 |
Quote:
I have nothing personal against Momass or Robo ( I actually like Momass has a person) but from the first season it was clear they both had problems and weren't the answer. Time proved me right and you guys wrong....
The only thing we can closely agree is Robo and MoMass were not a #1 receiver. Then again the intention was never there. That was obvious when BE continued being the #1. It was when he tried bucking authority he got shipped to New York.
I still don't follow your logic a receiver is most important. I guess Banner is now an idiot too since he hasn't made receiver a top priority as well.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 7,059
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 7,059 |
Quote:
... Eagles hired Kelly before Howie Roseman.
What am I missing here, bugs?
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475 |
People have selective memory...lol
My memory is that you wanted the Browns to INVEST MORE into WR as if we didn't already invest enough.
Very true once a kid became a Brown I backed him anyway we could.
argument of #1 is my belief you don't waste a top Draft pick on a WR until you get your QB n other ducks in a row then go ahead spend your Luxury pick. But all you remember was how we didn't need more investments.
My major point is we invested in KJ, Cutt, QM, Dre, BE, Robo, Momass all top 50 picks...we don't need to invest in WR to make this team good. Of course you forgot that. We had no QB no OL unit to protect the QB...a lot to build before getting that stud WR...we did not invest more in any other position n there you were saying we had to draft one high or spend a fortune on a top FA any FA. Keep in mind I was all for getting Boldin, Lloyd n (forgot his name WR on Denver then Miami n now in Chicago with Culter) but I didn't mind us going to get him. Just not one after another we need this n this is why our teams offense was not good WR. I always said we got Young invested WR. Maybe it wasn't them??? I find it also a coincidence that not one WR did anything of note after leaving here. All those picks bad? or we just would damage them beyond repair.
I always defended MoMass over Robo...(maybe his rookie season) but I always so MoMass getting better. Robo was not used much n was in the dawg house cause he was refusing to play special teams. Still don't know why he didn't click.
I will always prop up any kid we draft n give them their opportunity. You guys have dissed every pick we make unless its a top 5 WR...lol 
My stance was - GET a QB...GET an OL...Don't invest in top 50 pick WRs. Concentrate on multiple WRs to run good routes n have excellent hands. When we are ready...Fine move up invest in that luxury pick. That has always been my stance.
Once taken - in this case Robo n MoMass even though it was LAST on MY LIST OF WHAT WE NEEDED...I backed the kids to the hilt until they would leave.
Robo...no way did I think he would be that bad - my Bad. It still doesn't make sense??? Did we damage him? Or he just sucks.
MoMass...I so him get better n better no crow to eat here. I was right. But physically he became damaged goods. How can anyone see that coming. Of course if he had a veteran QB instead of a 3rd round rookie - the throw on that crossing pattern would not have led him but thrown behind him so that he had to stop n reach back turning away from the hit from Harrison??? Never the same after that. But all my arguments with you were YOU SAYING to become a winner we need to get MORE WRs - Invest MORE MORE MORE that will make the QBs better OL better - no crow from me there.
Homer...100% correct n my BAD. In private PMs with some dawgs I would show my displeasure but too many negative on the board so I chose to be the positive Yang.
MoMass never had bad things to say about him. He improved, his routes, his hands but for guys like he didn't improve the one thing you look at...STATS
Its all about the QB. MoMass - might revive his career. But more than likely its damaged for good. One more big hit inside n he's done. Shame cause he came along nicely and out of all those 7 draft picks...was doing the BEST in developing and happened to be the Lowest top 50 investment right at 50.
Little later then 50 n a second 2nd round pick sort of like a freebee for a luxury pick.
Gordon in a supplemental draft. Both are very solid prospects looking good. Of course I am a Homer but in private I say good things on those two. Gordon I'm worried about cause his character could have him stop working hard???
But Again we don't need to draft a WR high which I'm sure you will disagree n so on n so on. My bad for Robo n defending him as a valid WR...then again did we damage him cause we had 2 different O systems...Had 5 QBs starting with about 9 starting QB changes - of course that had NOTHING to do with his lack of Progress 
Momass...Good Robo Bad...either one - No where close to what I wanted here. Yes, once here I defended them as Browns - My BAD
Now eat some crow about us drafting WRs after WR as the way to go. Yeah I'll hold my breath.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761 |
Don't feel like discussing ex-ex regimes, Mangini was a pure fail and his pair of 2nd round WRs have busted incredibly quickly, there really isn't much to discuss about here
Robo: 31 games, 14 starts: 39 catches, 441yds, 3 TDs
Massa: 54 games, 43 starts: 118 catches, 1745yds, 7 TDs
Little: 32 games, 28 starts: 114 catches, 1356yds, 6 TDs
Gordon: 16 games, 12 starts: 50 catches, 805yds, 5 TDs
2 different "worlds" we're looking at
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,507
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,507 |
He traded away Winslow, who wasn't going to play without a new, huge contract. The rest of his picks were accumulated by trading down throughout the draft. Savage left us with 5 or 6 picks in the 2009 draft, Cleveland Browns trade Kellen Winslow to Tampa Bay for draft picks | cleveland.com http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2009/02/cleveland_browns_trade_kellen.htmlThe trade helped to replenish the draft void left by former General Manager Phil Savage. The Browns now own the fifth, 37th, and 51st overall picks on the first day of the April 25 draft.The Steelers currently have Ziggy Hood and David Johnson left from their 2009 draft. (Wallace and Lewis left in free agency this year) The Pats have Sebastian Vollmer left from their 2009 draft. Justin Edleman has left the team as a free agent. They had 4 second round picks, and a pair of 3rds, and a total of 13 draft picks that year. Not every player in every draft is going to be a great one. Even good teams will fail to find quality players from time to time. Also, not every player from every draft is a starter, no matter how high he is drafted. From that 2009, active players (still in the NFL last year) were: Mack, Robiske, Massaquoi, Maiava, Carey, and Francies. The only 2 players from that draft who were completely gone from the NFL were Veikune and Davis. There may not have been game changers in that draft, but there were guys good enough to make other teams in one role or another. Hell, Maiava and Massaquoi just signed multi year deals. Coye Francies is signed for 2013 with the Raiders. Don Carey is signed with the Lions for 2013. Mack is still with the Browns. That means that 5 of 7 of the players Mangini drafted are still in the NFL going into their 5th seasons. Mack is the only star quality player from the group ..... but that's not unheard of. Massaquoi and Maiava have a chance to start for their new teams. Carey started a half dozen games for the Lions last year. Francies is just hanging on by a thread, and Robiske will probably not survive training camp. It's not a great draft, but it's better than many give him credit for. Now, maybe we can return to the present? 
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465 |
Quote:
The only thing we can closely agree is Robo and MoMass were not a #1 receiver. Then again the intention was never there. That was obvious when BE continued being the #1. It was when he tried bucking authority he got shipped to New York.
I don't know that the intention was ever there to have one or both of those guys compliment Edwards.
I think Mangini wanted to get rid of Braylon all along. The arrest just kind of forced his hand a bit.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,024
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,024 |
JC ...
Just a general observation more than anything.
I find it an interesting and funny commentary, whether by the posters here or by the media, when a team doesn't have their full allotment of draft picks and it is referred to in a negative light. The article that YTown just quoted said the 'void' left by Savage.
Here's the bottom line. You have to pay the price of admission. If you want to wheel and deal and it makes sense for your franchise, there's a price involved. Sometimes that is draft picks. But to hear how it is characterized it's as if the FO at the time just called up a team and gave away the picks for nothing. Not true, we always get something in return. Whether it was a good deal or not is a different debate.
Savage was a wheeler and dealer. Heckert made some deals as well. Sometimes they involved draft picks. We ALWAYS got something in return. Yet every year when the draft rolls around and we don't have a full compliment of picks, it's as if people forget that we already used them on something else.
Maybe it's because we change FO every year and each FO wants to start out their regime with a full compliment of picks, but I just find this a really interesting commentary at this time of year.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,507
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,507 |
We got Brady Quinn in exchange for the 2nd rounder that we were missing in 2009.
Bleh.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 7,059
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 7,059 |
Quote:
... Carey, and Francies
I was, and still am, very disappointed with these two guys. According to some "books", they were both highly rated and I was very pleased (at the time) to have drafted both of them...
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
personally, I think Mangini felt he could "save" Braylon's career with the tough love approach. The huge fine for the bottled water at the hotel, etc.
it didn't work and the club issues did force his hand.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761 |
Quote:
Mack, Robiske, Massaquoi, Maiava, Carey, and Francies. The only 2 players from that draft who were completely gone from the NFL were Veikune and Davis. There may not have been game changers in that draft, but there were guys good enough to make other teams in one role or another. Hell, Maiava and Massaquoi just signed multi year deals. Coye Francies is signed for 2013 with the Raiders. Don Carey is signed with the Lions for 2013. Mack is still with the Browns. That means that 5 of 7 of the players Mangini drafted are still in the NFL going into their 5th seasons. Mack is the only star quality player from the group ..... but that's not unheard of.
It's not a great draft, but it's better than many give him credit for.
Really?....I mean, wow....REALLY? Not that I think you could have convinced anyone, but just post this to state the obvious, as in: it IS unheard of when you have 4 top 50 picks in a draft to come out with one good player....a center at that, one of the lowest value-positions around...and two out of leaguer's were 2nd rounders, the rest are dime a dozen filler players. It's not only a "not so great draft", it's a pretty horrible one
Quote:
Now, maybe we can return to the present?
Yes, please 
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,960
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,960 |
Well that's like this year.. Everyone is worried about not having a second rounder. I'd like to pick one up if we can. But the truth is, I don't know if a talent as good as Gordon showed himself to be would be there in the second round. So while we don't have a second, we did indeed get pretty darn good cog for the wheel...
One that I think has a chance to shine in this offense (If I understand it correctly) For a rookie that didn't join the team in any of the mini camps and hadn't played in a while, I think Gordon did a terrific job.
Guys like that generally aren't available in the second. they get snapped up in the 1st.
Again, I'd like to have a second rounder,, But I wouldn't give up Gordon to get one.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,507
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,507 |
Yet Bill Belichick had 4 second rounders and 2 thirds in that same draft, and really came away with 1 player out of those picks.
He grabbed Pat Chung, Ron Brace, Darius Butler, Sebastian Vollmer, Brandon Tate, and Tyrone McKenzie.
Patrick Chung has been inconsistent and injured a lot ...... kind of the defensive version of Massaquoi ........but Sebastian Vollmer has been a more consistent, quality player.
Ron Brace? Bleh. Maybe the Robiske of DT ... on a good day.
Darius Butler? He's a Don Carey type.
Brandon Tate? 37 career catches. Yea.
Tyrone McKenzie? 17 career tackles.
This is Bill Belichick. The genius.
When you only have one draft to look at, the person doing the drafting is either going to look really good, or really bad. We only have one draft to look at as far as Mangini in Cleveland. That draft was 5 seasons ago. It is really ancient history at this point.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,175
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,175 |
Quote:
Quote:
... Eagles hired Kelly before Howie Roseman.
What am I missing here, bugs?
It is with regards how Grossi and National Media wrote their negative opinions, as if fact, how Mangini did everything unorthodox. One of many wrongs doing noted by Grossi and the National Media ripped the Browns and Mangini for not hiring a GM before a HC. Since then, several teams have done the same, and funny no one questioned protocol on these teams. My point was this article above gave no real facts just an opinion.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,175
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,175 |
Quote:
Yet Bill Belichick had 4 second rounders and 2 thirds in that same draft, and really came away with 1 player out of those picks.
He grabbed Pat Chung, Ron Brace, Darius Butler, Sebastian Vollmer, Brandon Tate, and Tyrone McKenzie.
Patrick Chung has been inconsistent and injured a lot ...... kind of the defensive version of Massaquoi ........but Sebastian Vollmer has been a more consistent, quality player.
Ron Brace? Bleh. Maybe the Robiske of DT ... on a good day.
Darius Butler? He's a Don Carey type.
Brandon Tate? 37 career catches. Yea.
Tyrone McKenzie? 17 career tackles.
This is Bill Belichick. The genius.
When you only have one draft to look at, the person doing the drafting is either going to look really good, or really bad. We only have one draft to look at as far as Mangini in Cleveland. That draft was 5 seasons ago. It is really ancient history at this point.
Kudos! I could not have stated any better.
Belichick has a set agenda he wants in a player. I almost think he doesn't care about actual football talent. He assumes he can coach the player to do it the BB way. I think he misses a lot, but for the one who make the grade they are tops.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 7,059
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 7,059 |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
... Eagles hired Kelly before Howie Roseman.
What am I missing here, bugs?
It is with regards how Grossi and National Media wrote their negative opinions, as if fact, how Mangini did everything unorthodox. One of many wrongs doing noted by Grossi and the National Media ripped the Browns and Mangini for not hiring a GM before a HC. Since then, several teams have done the same, and funny no one questioned protocol on these teams. My point was this article above gave no real facts just an opinion.
Roseman has been with the Eagles since 2000, so I am not following your train of thought...
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,175
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,175 |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
... Eagles hired Kelly before Howie Roseman.
What am I missing here, bugs?
It is with regards how Grossi and National Media wrote their negative opinions, as if fact, how Mangini did everything unorthodox. One of many wrongs doing noted by Grossi and the National Media ripped the Browns and Mangini for not hiring a GM before a HC. Since then, several teams have done the same, and funny no one questioned protocol on these teams. My point was this article above gave no real facts just an opinion.
Roseman has been with the Eagles since 2000, so I am not following your train of thought...
Thanks! Now I know what you're talking about. I had the wrong team in my head, but my point is still valid...barely! 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761 |
Quote:
This is Bill Belichick. The genius.
...and crappy drafter. You're barking up the wrong tree as I'm criticizing the Pats and Steelers drafts the last years a lot. Belly stumbled over Brady, gets all the vet FAs who want to play for him and he knows how to get suckers like Al Davis to overpay for his aging vets...and he's a pretty good HC, with tons of picks in every draft, BUT he's a pretty bad drafter overall, been for years. He has no clue about value and drafts like a I expect a coach to draft...what the Steelers look like without Roethli we have seen firsthand last season
That's part of my fears with L4mbardi...he LOVES Belly's "draft approach", which is everything, but not value based. It's basically a pure NEED approach, he all but said so. My fear is that he's to Belly as a GM what Mangini was to Belly th HC...a wannabe
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 75,217
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 75,217 |
Quote:
I know agents never twist the truth to make them look good.
I've seen fans on message boards do that too!
  
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475 |
I would suspect the incentive of the Almighty $$$$ could only put them in a class of their own...
DJ...whatever - I agree with the statement about discussion of pass regimes...but this is the deadzone.
Mangini...failed Ultimately - Short Term true by the record...his regime lasted ONE SEASON. Of course he got a stay of execution from the Governor for one more year.
But there is more to evaluating "FAIL" - I thought he brought Discipline to a team that was horribly needing discipline. He brought Fight n competitiveness to the LOS. Heck as little as we won we won games with 9 forward pass attempts in a game n another with 29 yards in the air. Who does that without a true battle n punching it. So there are some things I will be greatful for. I thought he accumulated a lot of draft picks for Heckert to utilize n build his base.
As for stats...whatever. All I know is I saw Momass progress nicely each year. I saw the "HIT" stop that progress n forever change him as a Brown n possibly in his career. Not the bad draft pick held him back but injuries...n we are talking multiple concussions. Once you get one you think about it.
But if this all makes you feel good - drive them daggers deep in my back...et tu DJ...lol
Still liked MoMass 
Robo...the little opportunities he had he actually looked good. He had to be a total jerk in the Locker room. No idea why he bombed???
JMHO - still regardless, I hated us taking WR with top 50 picks.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 75,217
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 75,217 |
Quote:
I would suspect the incentive of the Almighty $$$$ could only put them in a class of their own...
I'll have to give ya that one! They do have a lot of motivation!
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499 |
Quote:
2 different "worlds" we're looking at
Really?
Mangini went 5 and 11 after he blew up the crap that Savage left him.
He also went 5 and11 the first year H and H got here.
They fired him.
They went 4 and 12 and 5 and 11 in the next two years.
I wish that Junior would have never brought in The Big Show. I know for a fact that Mangini could coach circles around Passive Pat.
The GM stuff? He tore it down and brought in vets to change the culture. The roster wasn't going to continue that way. All I know is that Mangini acquire future picks while Savage and Heckert trade future picks away. For what? Brady Quinn, Hardesty, and Trent Richardson? Pfffftttt.
Dj------I used to think highly of you as a poster, but you remind me of mac and Pit. Three of a kind.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499 |
Quote:
That's part of my fears with Lombardi...he LOVES Belly's "draft approach", which is everything, but not value based. It's basically a pure NEED approach, he all but said so. My fear is that he's to Belly as a GM what Mangini was to Belly th HC...a wannabe
Your fear? 
Yeah man, let's not break up the dynasty that the Browns have built. 14 and 34 under the great H and H!
I am so, so afraid that all that greatness is going to be ruined.
Just wondering........do you guys even take yourselves seriously?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 6,815
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 6,815 |
Quote:
I know for a fact that Mangini could coach circles around Passive Pat.
Pat Shurmur will coach in this season,  Mangini won't  seems not everyone shares your opinion.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 19,144
Legend
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 19,144 |
Quote:
Dj------I used to think highly of you as a poster, but you remind me of mac and Pit. Three of a kind.
One (or two) of these things is not like the others. 
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499 |
And Mike Lombardi will serve as a GM this year while Reach Heckert is on the streets. The bum couldn't even secure a TV job.
Joe Banner is a team president this year, while The Big Show is begging for someone to show some interest in his brilliance. There have been no takers.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465 |
Quote:
I thought he accumulated a lot of draft picks for Heckert to utilize n build his base.
When Heckert took over, Mangini had left him with a 3rd, which was used on Lauvao, and a fifth, which became Larry Asante.
I would hardly call two mid-round picks 'a lot', nor would I categorize Asante or Lauvao as part of a 'base'.
One is gone, one needs to see the bench.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465 |
Quote:
All I know is that Mangini acquire future picks while Savage and Heckert trade future picks away. For what? Brady Quinn, Hardesty, and Trent Richardson? Pfffftttt.
And what did Mangini do with his future picks?
Massaquoi? Veikune?
Heckert's on the hook for burning some of Mangini's stockpile, but it's not like he wove any of the future picks in his tenure into anything other than 'Pfffftttt'.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499 |
I have some news for you. Mangini has been gone for years. The Big Show, Reach, and Passive are all gone, too.
You guys whining about things aren't going to change that.
Pffftttt
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465 |
Quote:
I have some news for you. Mangini has been gone for years. The Big Show, Reach, and Passive are all gone, too.
You guys whining about things aren't going to change that.
Pffftttt
I'm not whining about either regime being yesterday's news.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,877
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,877 |
This I know:
Mangini was a failure. He's gone.
Shurmur was a failure. He's gone.
Vers is never wrong. Just ask him.
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499 |
Actually, I am one of the very few who admit it when I am wrong and have done so many, many times. For example, I had Schwartz graded as a 3rd or 4th rounder and he was one of the guys I wanted us to draft last year. But, I was thinking 4th round. We took him in the second round. I thought it was a reach and said so. Schwartz played very well last year. He was worth a 2nd round pick. I was wrong.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475 |
When you get extra picks it effects the entire draft. btw...how did we get the extra 2nd rounders?
Lava...you know not what you speak of. I'm tired of that argument from the other board. But lets just say Dawgs do not see what they should. All I can say is TWICE where I thought Lava had a decent game only to come to the board with a slew of Lava sucks analysis. Forcing me to go to the tape of the game. View each play multiple times which is needed sometimes to find out exactly what happened. Only to find on both occasions Lava not only being OK but was the best OLman of the day. So I keep arguing with dawgs who try to tell me he sucks. When I know he's not a Pro-Bowler but to upgrade on him is not an easy task - he is pretty good n has gotten better like young players should. I don't know where that progress will take him...we start winning who knows there might be respect gotten.
All I know in one of our last games the Analyst guy with X's n O's had to study our film to get to know the team. He stated at the start of the game how Impressed he was with Lava n this kid was going to be a good one!
All I know is take any game where its Short yardage or On the Goal line...1 or 2 yard line...Take a look at a replay if they ever show the side view of the LOS. at the snap you will see One OLman fire out with such explosion - low n hard like he was shot out of a cannon...that is Lava. Also look at those successful First downs n TD made...many coming right up his butt. So don't say the words he should be on the bench - cause I can guarantee you he ain't the weak link of our OL. Nothing personal just it was one heck of a 3rd round pick for a team that has never had any kind of success from the 3rd round. Amazingly BAD 3rd round picks. Lava by far is the best pick - You state we didn't get anything from the Mangini gift. We got a good solid RG who has started for two seasons n gotten better with each one. Your words of should be on the bench as a FACT that the pick meant nothing when the kid has started for two years ON an OL that is probably the best UNIT we have going. DON'T MAKE IT SO.
JMHO...ehhhh sorry more than opinion I have Research this pretty extensively in the past.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761 |
Spaking of OL play...
Both Pinkston and Lava improved during the season, then of course Pinky got injured and Greco stepped in and played even better...you know who Greco was after 3 seasons? He was Pinkston/Lava...a 3round OT selected to transition to G. The Rams of all teams, who haven't fielded a good OL since forever, let him go...and look in his 4th/5th season, with his 2nd team his play took off
My point? OL take some time, we can't expect everyone to be like Thomas and Schwartz...those 2 were EXCELLENT top 50 picks who played their position in College. Lava and Pinky and Greco were mid round OT/G tweeners/converts...you just can't expect them to be the nuts after 1-2 seasons
Look, we have Greco, the vet, with 5 years in the league. Lava with 3 and Pinky with 1.5...we also have a forgotten 5th rounder in Miller, who was redshirted in his rookie season...let them play and grow together. If we want to upgrade? Bring in a clear stop gap upgrade like Moore, but please don't DRAFT another G high...we've decent depth at G, imho
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475 |
Not that high on Pinkston - to me he is the weak link of the OL n can be upgraded a bit easier than RG.
Greco...ehhh he's ok at pass blocking Pinkston has more power n can anchor better for Interior pass blocking. Greco can get ran over. Greco is more mobile in his pulls especially the power pull to runs on the opposite side. Pinkston was always late getting there. Greco would be there but weak with his block.
Pinkston comes into camp with a clean bill of health I believe he will beat out Greco for the starting LG spot. Greco will be a good versatile backup.
Miller....ugh he had terrible skill set from what I saw last season. But he has two good coaches in Warhop n Sullivan. Cool thing about OL the speed needed can be worked on. The technique needed can be worked on. Communication as a UNIT comes with Continuity. First in verbal communication...after 3-5 years together you get communication with a nod or a grunt n all know who n what as they all see n understand the adjustment. OL play is so about adjusting. Cause any X's n O's drawn on the board do not remain as the drawn up play has. Once they line up so so much is up to excellent communicaiton and adjustments. Whether its a fold block...or scoop step or a G-pull or a Trap pull as we all know Thinking slows players down. Once a UNIT has this all in sync n second nature...its gets more crisp n effective.
That is why Warhop has stayed here now for his 3rd Regime (Mangini brought him here). Chud brought his man Sullivan who I think will be the apprentice n heir apparent but for the change to be seamless.
Interior SKILL SET is not that great as in the Corners...LT n RT where if you come in without them you are damned - Can't make a Thoroughbred out of a plow horse...but INTERIOR you need that PLOW horse!
But I don't mind getting a Stud...Warmack in a drop back situation. Or my preference of Long in the 3rd round...both for the LG position.
You are correct - Interior can be MOLDED into NFL players cause MANY HAVE THE SKILL SET NEEDED. Of course like any position the higher up on the food chain you do go (draft) the better the skill set is there (less to teach)!
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 742
All Pro
|
|
All Pro
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 742 |
Quote:
He drafted two receivers who had good hands and can block. Last I checked #2 receiver can be a solid starter.
What do you mean you don't draft a complementary receiver in the second round? Torry Smith
Sure a #2 starts. But They drafted 2 guys. If neither was intended to be a #1 (your claim), then one of them becomes #3 at best. They can't both start alongside a #1.
Using a 2nd round pick on your #2 WR is one thing. In the same draft, same round, using a 2nd rounder for your #3 WR??? That's crazy.
Torrey Smith would have been the #1 here as a rookie in 2011. He's started/produced and he's the top WR in Baltimore now. RoBo Update:
The Detroit Lions released veteran receiver Brian Robiskie today. Robiskie appeared in six games and caught four passes with the Lions after signing as a mid-season injury replacement last year, but he was considered a long shot to make the team this fall.
http://www.freep.com/article/20130408/SPORTS01/130408051
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 12,635
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 12,635 |
Quote:
Quote:
He drafted two receivers who had good hands and can block. Last I checked #2 receiver can be a solid starter.
What do you mean you don't draft a complementary receiver in the second round? Torry Smith
Sure a #2 starts. But They drafted 2 guys. If neither was intended to be a #1 (your claim), then one of them becomes #3 at best. They can't both start alongside a #1.
Using a 2nd round pick on your #2 WR is one thing. In the same draft, same round, using a 2nd rounder for your #3 WR??? That's crazy.
Torrey Smith would have been the #1 here as a rookie in 2011. He's started/produced and he's the top WR in Baltimore now. RoBo Update:
The Detroit Lions released veteran receiver Brian Robiskie today. Robiskie appeared in six games and caught four passes with the Lions after signing as a mid-season injury replacement last year, but he was considered a long shot to make the team this fall.
http://www.freep.com/article/20130408/SPORTS01/130408051
Probably considered a long shot to make any team now...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,201
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,201 |
Quote:
Probably considered a long shot to make any team now...
There's always Carolina and Jacksonville.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
|
|
|
DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Massaquoi Thread
|
|
