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Probably considered a long shot to make any team now...
There's always Carolina and Jacksonville. 
JAX has already cut him 
#gmstrong
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Probably considered a long shot to make any team now...
There's always Carolina and Jacksonville.
JAX has already cut him
That's gotta hurt.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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JMHO...ehhhh sorry more than opinion I have Research this pretty extensively in the past.
You can dance around words pretty well, I'll give you that.
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I thought he accumulated a lot of draft picks for Heckert to utilize n build his base.
That wasn't the case. He left Heckert with two picks, which became Lauvao and Larry Asante.
From there, you chose to frame the debate on whether or not Lauvao deserves to be replaced.
We can debate that if you'd like, but even if we agree that he's a competent starter ... one competent guard isn't the building of a base.
You were attempting to argue that Mangini's moves left Heckert in some sort of decent shape. He didn't, really. He left him with a team of aging vets and special teamers. And a third and a fifth, which turned into a starting guard and a guy not on the roster.
I think you don't like to lose an argument, so you twist the argument to the point where the original question is forgotten. From there, you present your opinion as logic and research, and dismiss anyone's elses as mere opinion.
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I don't mean to get in the middle of this enthralling conversation. What I will say is that Mangini cleaned out the cancerous players and brought back a sense of team. Those cancers also happened to be some of our most talented players and he added over the hill players he was connected to. Heckert then had to extricate the Mangini dead weight and he was nearly puritanical in replacing these players with draft picks. He added no top end talent in free agency therefore our roster still lacks enough talented players. Banner (Isaac from Children of the Corn) is now methodically killing all the adult football players and is replacing them with young players according to some sort of sabermetric formula. Hell if I know if this is going to work but we'll see. 
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you are correct...I was under the impression Mangini left him with a lot more picks then what it shows...MY BAD
Yes...I have an OL fetish n Lava has been a battle cause to most dawgs it is an impression they come away with from simply watching games. Unfortunately to get it right for the INTERIOR...you have to view the tape ad nausea to find out what really happened.
So the Quantity of picks is no where what I thought it was...again MY BAD but I do think there is value in the foundation not enough to make the case I thought it was...lol 
Debate about Lava...heck I can spend all day talking about the OL 
But I'm sure a lot of the same insights were thought of here as were on the other board...especially on your remarks concerning Lava. I think he's a keeper. True he can be Upgraded but not as easily as most think...Probably a late round 1st. None of the FA were in the running. Maybe Fluker??? OT converted to OG...then again I would see him going to LG...I know this is a MoMass thread...but I think we've squeezed all the water available in that Turnip... 
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Are we 100% sure that this isn't the same person?  
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He drafted two receivers who had good hands and can block. Last I checked #2 receiver can be a solid starter.
What do you mean you don't draft a complementary receiver in the second round? Torry Smith
Sure a #2 starts. But They drafted 2 guys. If neither was intended to be a #1 (your claim), then one of them becomes #3 at best. They can't both start alongside a #1.
Using a 2nd round pick on your #2 WR is one thing. In the same draft, same round, using a 2nd rounder for your #3 WR??? That's crazy.
Torrey Smith would have been the #1 here as a rookie in 2011. He's started/produced and he's the top WR in Baltimore now. RoBo Update:
The Detroit Lions released veteran receiver Brian Robiskie today. Robiskie appeared in six games and caught four passes with the Lions after signing as a mid-season injury replacement last year, but he was considered a long shot to make the team this fall.
http://www.freep.com/article/20130408/SPORTS01/130408051
Can you please explain how Maclin is the #2 guy for the Eagles? McCoy was drafted in the second. Maclin drafted in the first.
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ok, that's seriously scary as Hell!
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Can you please explain how Maclin is the #2 guy for the Eagles? McCoy was drafted in the second. Maclin drafted in the first.
Maclin? McCoy? Eagles? Sorry I thought you were talking about Kokinis, not Banner. I was wondering how you saw good hands and blocking in Robiskie 
If RoBO and MoMass were both drafted to go behind a #1WR on the depth chart, that means they hoped one would be a #2WR and the other a #3WR. Just can't see using (2) 2nd rounders with that goal in mind. Can't use a 2nd round pick in hopes of getting a #3 wideout.
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I thought Desean Jackson was the #1. Maclin the #2.....
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
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The Texans offered Mohamed Massaquoi a contract before he signed with the Jaguars.
It's a sign that the Texans aren't sold on Lestar Jean or Keshawn Martin. With DeVier Posey unlikely to be ready for the start of the season thanks to an Achilles' tendon tear, we'd expect Houston to spend an early-round pick on a wideout.
Source: Houston Chronicle
Look another idiot GM. 
Two teams with high profile #1 receivers obtaining MoMass's services to play the #2. I sure wish I'd thought of it! 
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I thought Desean Jackson was the #1. Maclin the #2.....
Exactly Memphis. Per Coyote it is unheard of drafting a #2 receiver in the first or second round. Someone should go and tell Eagles their receiving corp is in disarray!
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I thought Desean Jackson was the #1. Maclin the #2.....
Exactly Memphis. Per Coyote it is unheard of drafting a #2 receiver in the first or second round. Someone should go and tell Eagles their receiving corp is in disarray!
Hopefully for the Eagles, it was about drafting the BPA. They traded up with us to grab Maclin so there must have been something they liked. Reid is an offensive guy (who passed a ton) that wanted to inject weapons for his QB. Makes sense.
It varies by coach, GM, whomever. Some don't believe to draft a WR early in the first. Some don't think to draft a RB at all in the first. It's all a matter or philosophy.
Either way, drafting someone as a #2, IMO is not a complimentary receiver as was posted by someone some pages ago. He is as vital to the offense flow as the #1. No matter where he is drafted or when his talent comes to fruition is a moot point. If he plays the role, he better be good. If he sucks, move on.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
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[ Per Coyote it is unheard of drafting a #2 receiver in the first or second round. Someone should go and tell Eagles their receiving corp is in disarray!
nope. Again, Its not about the #2 WR bugs. its about the #3 WR ManKok drafted in the 2nd round.
Per Coyote, yesterday: "Using a 2nd round pick on your #2 WR is one thing. In the same draft, same round, using a 2nd rounder for your #3 WR??? That's crazy."
and again later, per Coyote: "Can't use a 2nd round pick in hopes of getting a #3 wideout."
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Dj------I used to think highly of you as a poster, but you remind me of mac and Pit. Three of a kind.
Yeah, as long as we agree with you, you think highly of us.
Maybe you think too highly of yourself?
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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[ Per Coyote it is unheard of drafting a #2 receiver in the first or second round. Someone should go and tell Eagles their receiving corp is in disarray!
nope. Again, Its not about the #2 WR bugs. its about the #3 WR ManKok drafted in the 2nd round.
Per Coyote, yesterday: "Using a 2nd round pick on your #2 WR is one thing. In the same draft, same round, using a 2nd rounder for your #3 WR??? That's crazy."
and again later, per Coyote: "Can't use a 2nd round pick in hopes of getting a #3 wideout."
First off I broke my own rule using #1, #2, and #3 when referencing receivers. I'm not sure anyone even uses these references, well, maybe Grossi and few other ol'school reporters.
I can't remember where I copied this explanation, but someone on another team forum did an outstanding job.
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Modern offenses use letter names for receivers: X and Z for the starting receivers, Y for the tight end, letters like F, H, or W for third, fourth, or fifth wideouts. Different systems have different preferences. In one system, the X receiver is typically on the left, Z on the right. In others, X is usually on the line of scrimmage, Z off. As offenses become more complex, even those in-system generalities get blurred.
Instead of explaining the difference between an X and a Z receiver, which is nearly impossible, let's go over the advantages and disadvantages of each position. A receiver on the line of scrimmage can release immediately into his route, and he is in good position to block his defender at the line. On the downside, he can be jammed easily. A receiver a yard or two in the backfield has extra space to beat a jam, which is why smaller receivers are often "flankers."
The wider a receiver's split, the more space he has in which to isolate and beat his defender. However, a receiver split wide of the field numbers has little room for running out-routes and other patterns that work the sidelines. Wide spacing also creates longer throws for the quarterback, which can be dangerous. Slot or flex receivers have space to work to the inside or out, can catch shorter, safer passes, and have a better chance of getting mismatched against a linebacker, safety, or nickelback in coverage. On the downside, they are working in tighter space; a slot receiver running a crossing route quickly moves from one defender's zone to another, making it hard for him to get open.
What does all this mean? It means you need specialists to play each receiver position. You need a go-route, indeterminate and sideline, and bump and grind (or over the middle/blocker). Heckert built his receiving corp: Gordon; Little; Benjamin and Mangini (originally started with): Edwards; MoMass; Robo. Heckert was building a WCO. Mangini was building a Perkins style offense.
Looking back at the Browns roster Mangini inherited the following: Receivers: Edwards; Cribbs; Hubbard; Steptoe; Stallworth. RB's: Ali; Harrison; Lewis; Vickers (Jason Wright IR). QB's: Anderson; Quinn; Dorsey. I think Kokinis had the most sense and bailed!!
I don't think there are any first, second, and third receives. You need individuals who can play the position.
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Look another idiot GM.
Two teams with high profile #1 receivers obtaining MoMass's services to play the #2. I sure wish I'd thought of it!
Since they drafted Wright last year to be their no2 WR in the 1st round and he had a good rookie season I think MoMass still would be, was and always be a no4, backup no2 WR with no ST use 
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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It means you need specialists to play each receiver position.
You need individuals who can play the position.
I agree with that. And I remember that post from the other board. To me, that was 1/2 the problem with our WRs. There was no specialist. No array of matchup options. No one that could overwhelm the defense in one way or another. I prefer a mix of guys that can all do different things based on down/distance and the defense's weakness.
RoBo and MoMass were clones. Cribbs too. A "Trio of Tweeners." None of them had explosive speed, none of them had massive wingspan/overwhelming size, None of them had the grit to go under, get open and make plays (thinking of MoMass getting crushed as I type this). Cribbs had YAC potential, but the others never showed a knack for breaking tackles or making plays with the ball.
I will say I fault Heckert just as much for his decision to do nothing in his first year. I think We finally got that mix of size/speed with Little, Gordon and Benjamin.
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I agree with that. And I remember that post from the other board. To me, that was 1/2 the problem with our WRs. There was no specialist. No array of matchup options. No one that could overwhelm the defense in one way or another. I prefer a mix of guys that can all do different things based on down/distance and the defense's weakness.
You have to look at the whole team and the 2009 draft, which in my opinion was very mediocre. Receiver position is the last thing, in my opinion, you address. But, it was the weakest position on the team. Mangini/Kokinis needed something. They were installing a run oriented offense. Best fit at the time was getting receivers who support the run game. BE really screwed things up wanting out of Cleveland. Having both Edwards and MoMass would have made a competitive tandem. Robo and MoMass switch off on rushing downs. To me, it made perfect sense until the OL was fortified. I have to believe the plan was adding a go-route receiver in the next year or two. It did not help neither Quinn or Anderson becoming a starting QB. Browns team Mangini inherited had no chemistry or foundation.
I supported Robo for a long time, but something happen during his second year. He given up. Fans hit him pretty hard, and he wanted out of Cleveland. He missed out on development and never recovered. Nobody will take time to retrain. It is easier drafting a project.
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Robiskie's 2nd season was his best, especially the end of the year. Half of his career receptions came in those last 6 games of year 2. The other 3 years, he could barely sniff the field. Maybe you're thinking of his 3rd year?
But I'm sure Mangini's guys coached him up as a rookie, even if they never played him. And I remember Heckert and Holmgren praising him in camp. Plus, his dad is a WR coach. I think coachability is the best thing he has going for him, and that's why teams grab him as an emergency plug-in. His lack of physical talent/upside is why teams dump him.
Good luck to both of them. Hope Massaquoi can stay healthy.
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j/c
I love the Dead Zone...
I don't see the argument regarding MoMass...he was due his 2nd contract. He progressed in technique, route running as well as hands to be a viable NFL WR.
His multiple Concussions n mental damage due to the hits also the progress of Little n Gordon...made it a NO BRAINER to let him walk. He didn't suck, but he definitely was damaged goods.
WRs - since 99 has not been the problem. I'm sure we can discuss till we are blue in the face how they all sucked. But the impact rounds are Rounds 1 n 2...we invested 9 picks in those rounds since 1999...I find it hard to believe with 5 different evaluators that all 5 evaluators along with those 9 investments coincidence suck as they have not produced Any STATS to be acclaimed as Good - Great. add investment 10 n 11 when you add 2004 first n second round pick to GET KW2.
I don't believe in coincidences. The common denominator simply is we have not remotely have a Franchise QB step up for this team.
I think what we got is solid. If there is a BPA in the draft that falls to us...go ahead take him! But honestly we are the perfect example of Einstein's definition of Insanity when it comes to WRs.
Lets concentrate on getting that Franchise QB...then tinker w/WRs if need be.
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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"His multiple Concussions n mental damage due to the hits also the progress of Little n Gordon...made it a NO BRAINER to let him walk. He didn't suck, but he definitely was damaged goods".
I agree 100%, inability to run a fluid route and then have a ball thrown to an "area" rather than a spot made him suseptable to damage.
GO BROWNS!
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I'm not saying WR is "the problem." Don't think anyone says that. There have been lots of problems, of course QB is front-and-center.
Fullback isn't the problem either. Doesn't give Marecic a pass. Same with punter or RT. St Clair was awful. not a bigger problem than Quinn, but still one of the problems.
Of those 9 WRs, we've had some good ones and some bad ones. The ones we have now look a lot better than the ones they replaced. Extremely raw rookies came in here and outshined these guys. Little and Gordon were both 20 months removed from football. One was a converted RB with no training camp. They came in and took these other guys' jobs. That settles it for me.
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I find it hard to believe with 5 different evaluators that all 5 evaluators along with those 9 investments coincidence suck as they have not produced Any STATS to be acclaimed as Good - Great. add investment 10 n 11 when you add 2004 first n second round pick to GET KW2.
I don't believe in coincidences. The common denominator simply is we have not remotely have a Franchise QB step up for this team.
I agree with you that the QB position (as well the offense overall) has had a lot to do with a lack of production in that regard.
But it's not like any of these guys lit it up elsewhere.
Kevin Johnson bounced around the league and never did much.
Same for Braylon. And Quincy Morgan.
Northcutt was steady but unspectacular for a few teams.
Andre Davis had a few good years as a return specialist.
Robiskie is done in this league, most likely.
Is it a coincidence that not one of our high investment WR's did anything after they left the team?
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We are terrible
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But it's not like any of these guys lit it up elsewhere.
In my best Judge Dredd voice... "I KNEW YOU WOULD SAY THAT"
Its a true statement none did...only Northcutt was pursued as a legitimate WR. And BE given limitless opportunities due to natural talent.
KW2 the only STUD that would have been able to be great if he didn't Shatter his knee.
But all 9 is that possible...if it was one guy like OZ failing in getting that WR and if you look he tried n tried. Until Torrey Smith n he isn't THAT GREAT.
But we had 5 Regimes 5 personnel guys. How can all 5 get it wrong.
I have come to the conclusion that it is an environmental thing. Like many skilled positions regarding the Air Attack (mainly QB n WR) some continuity has to be achieved. Some environmental qualifications have to be seen. If so year after year change of system after system. No QB...actually we probably averaged 2-3 starting QB changes a season! This damages, even a WRs ability to Progress n if continued long enough actually DAMAGE the WR.
Keep in mind this is just an Hypothesis of mine. It is not proven fact. My data base is 9 very high draft picks. 10 if you count KW2 but that was a Jock Rocket ruining that talent forever not environment!
We have ONE SEASON - ONE SEASON ONLY that our offense had great flow n that you would want from an NFL team...2007 n all our WRs looked Pretty good in that environment. What would KJ have done there as a rookie..n remain in that O someday hoping to actually get a Franchise QB in there. How would Northcutt produced. Robo? MoMass. I mean QM we observed the kid had hands of stone I think yes that was a bad pick n only as a Stretch guy. Dre...ehhh He could have been a Jacoby Jones type.
But outside of those two I thought they all had the skills. by the time they left us they were damaged goods - either physically or mentally.
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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We have ONE SEASON - ONE SEASON ONLY that our offense had great flow n that you would want from an NFL team...2007 n all our WRs looked Pretty good in that environment. What would KJ have done there as a rookie..n remain in that O someday hoping to actually get a Franchise QB in there. How would Northcutt produced. Robo? MoMass. I mean QM we observed the kid had hands of stone I think yes that was a bad pick n only as a Stretch guy. Dre...ehhh He could have been a Jacoby Jones type.
I don't really see any of those guys thriving in that offense.
At best, they could've filled the Tim Carter role, but with Edwards JJ and KW2 out there ... I don't see any of those guys being much more than a borderline #3 or #4 guy, which, IMO, is what almost all of those investments amounted to.
I don't think those guys didn't get a fair shot. I just don't think they were any good.
BE, Quincy Morgan, Andre Davis, Kevin Johnson and Northcutt were all given starting opportunities elsewhere, and none of them panned out. My observation is because they simply weren't that good. I can see your side of it, and it's a valid argument. I just don't see it that way.
If I had to put a ceiling on all of these guys, based on optimal conditions, I'd say:
Braylon Edwards = Pro Bowl WR1
Andre Davis = WR4 used to stretch the field with return duties
Northcutt = WR3 with return duties
Massaquoi = average to above average WR2
Robiskie = WR4
Quincy Morgan = below average WR2
Kevin Johnson = average WR2
Josh Gordon = Pro Bowl WR1
Greg Little = above average WR2
Most of those guys, IMO, didn't fail because of their environment. They failed because they were asked to perform duties that were beyond their abilities.
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This is probably the first time I post this on the new forum, but the question is:
Is it possible to have a good WR in a bad team with a bad QB? Yes it is, take Larry Fitz and others.
Do the stats of a good WR vary that much in a bad team with a bad QB? Well my analysis says that the fundamentals stats, although changing, don't change that much, and the rank of the elite WR in an average group is still the higher.
Taking a look at the Browns WR we have BE, Kevin Johnson, and Josh Gordon not in the elite WR group, but average/good, with high 40's/low 50's yds per game (elite would be 70's), 6/7 targets per game (elite would be 9), and low 50's % of passes caught (elite would be 60's)
Then we have, MoMass, Northcutt and Quincy, in the bad group 30 yds per game, 2 rec per game and on the 40s % of passes caught. Horrid WR group we have Robiskie and Andre Davis.
So, in conclusion we never had an Elite/good WR, although some of the Wrs were not that bad. Another conclusion is that we never signed a good WR, apart from Joe J.
A WR is a WR, and a QB is a QB and for sure we can tell when a WR and a QB are good and when they suck, at least I know I can.
We never had an elite QB, but all our QB's were much better then when we had MoMass, Robo and Little....
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