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Of course it doesn't.
You are a trickster, Dj. And I am going to call you out on it...........a lot.
Better change your ways, my friend.
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3.5ypc and 38th out of 40 qualifying RBs Trent? Yeah, he was an upgrade over 3.6ypc Hillis/Haresty...oh wait 
Alfred Morris, Reggie Bush, M.Lynch and even Vic Ballard were better "QBs best firends" last season. You're up to dispute that? Good luck
yea ok. true. but I will say the same I did before. he took the pressure off the qb because he always had 1 or two defenders shadow him. they dared weeden to beat them and he did not even come close.
Browns ended up being 15th in the NFL in 20+ yds passing plays with 50. They were 30th with 32 under McCoy in 2011....and we're talking the same small ball Shurmur Offense here with the least amount of shotgun snaps league wide. I don't know what you saw, but I saw a QB that finally threw the ball deep on 1on1 coverage up until Shurmur brainfarted in front of the media talking about reducing INTs at a time when Weeden was already cutting them down
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3.5ypc and 38th out of 40 qualifying RBs Trent? Yeah, he was an upgrade over 3.6ypc Hillis/Haresty...oh wait
Alfred Morris, Reggie Bush, M.Lynch and even Vic Ballard were better "QBs best firends" last season. You're up to dispute that? Good luck
yea ok. true. but I will say the same I did before. he took the pressure off the qb because he always had 1 or two defenders shadow him. they dared weeden to beat them and he did not even come close.
Browns ended up being 15th in the NFL in 20+ yds passing plays with 50. They were 30th with 32 under McCoy in 2011....and we're talking the same small ball Shurmur Offense here with the least amount of shotgun snaps league wide. I don't know what you saw, but I saw a QB that finally threw the ball deep on 1on1 coverage up until Shurmur brainfarted in front of the media talking about reducing INTs at a time when Weeden was already cutting them down
and that happen because trent was keeping 1 or 2 defenders honest. instead of going for weeden. what part of that don't you understand?
being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
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Of course it doesn't.
You are a trickster, Dj. And I am going to call you out on it...........a lot.
Better change your ways, my friend.
I never knew that a QB is supposed to play D and ST too nowadays. I thought it made more sense to compare apples to apples and the side of the ball that a QB actually DOES lead, the Offense
Btw, who the hell is arguing that Weeden's rookie season was close to RG3's, Wilson and Luck anyway? You're again fighting windmills to artifically push your feverish agenda. Have fun...oh, and I'll reserve the right to call you out on that too. Blasphemy, I know
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3.5ypc and 38th out of 40 qualifying RBs Trent? Yeah, he was an upgrade over 3.6ypc Hillis/Haresty...oh wait
Alfred Morris, Reggie Bush, M.Lynch and even Vic Ballard were better "QBs best firends" last season. You're up to dispute that? Good luck
yea ok. true. but I will say the same I did before. he took the pressure off the qb because he always had 1 or two defenders shadow him. they dared weeden to beat them and he did not even come close.
Browns ended up being 15th in the NFL in 20+ yds passing plays with 50. They were 30th with 32 under McCoy in 2011....and we're talking the same small ball Shurmur Offense here with the least amount of shotgun snaps league wide. I don't know what you saw, but I saw a QB that finally threw the ball deep on 1on1 coverage up until Shurmur brainfarted in front of the media talking about reducing INTs at a time when Weeden was already cutting them down
and that happen because trent was keeping 1 or 2 defenders honest. instead of going for weeden. what part of that don't you understand?
I dissected that myth last season...before the rib injury that was the case, but after that, he was less effective and Ds played him normal. I had an epic "tape session" with DC about it in the Redskins game, where he argued for the same, which clearly wasn't the case. Overall, I think there's a correlation between Weeden's earlier improvements and TRich's decline in productivity and the Offense design as such didn't help much too...fact remains, Weeden DID beat opposing Ds deep at an AVG NFL level....btw, Seahawks and Dolphins had less 20+yds pass plays than the Browns
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I'm not talking "avg. points scored per game", I'm talking wins.
Aren't you being overly simplistic Arch?
We are installing an entire new D with a lot of personnel who have never been in anything even close to this.
So if we lose a few games by say 38-31, you plan to blame the QB position and the O for that? Say we win 6 games but lose a few very high scoring games by a field goal or less, how would that be the fault of the QB or the O?
It would seem to me that had the D done even close to an average job in those other three games, we would have won nine. As I said, I think you're over simplifying things here just a bit.
It takes both sides of the ball to win games, not just one....
jExcuses, excuses, we hear them all too much. (sorry, that's a song by the Kingsmen Quartet)
But no, I don't believe I'm being too simplistic if thoughts are allowed to be based on past judgments of qb's.
I am expecting GREAT things out of Weeden. He's got it all going for him........running game, good O line, decent receivers, an O coordinator that knows how to use him. With his strong arm and "accuracy" I'm expecting fantastic things from him. And anyone that doesn't or isn't, hasn't been following along.
This is his no excuses year. Forget D. I fully expect to see O.
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3.5ypc and 38th out of 40 qualifying RBs Trent? Yeah, he was an upgrade over 3.6ypc Hillis/Haresty...oh wait
Alfred Morris, Reggie Bush, M.Lynch and even Vic Ballard were better "QBs best firends" last season. You're up to dispute that? Good luck
yea ok. true. but I will say the same I did before. he took the pressure off the qb because he always had 1 or two defenders shadow him. they dared weeden to beat them and he did not even come close.
Browns ended up being 15th in the NFL in 20+ yds passing plays with 50. They were 30th with 32 under McCoy in 2011....and we're talking the same small ball Shurmur Offense here with the least amount of shotgun snaps league wide. I don't know what you saw, but I saw a QB that finally threw the ball deep on 1on1 coverage up until Shurmur brainfarted in front of the media talking about reducing INTs at a time when Weeden was already cutting them down
and that happen because trent was keeping 1 or 2 defenders honest. instead of going for weeden. what part of that don't you understand?
I dissected that myth last season...before the rib injury that was the case, but after that, he was less effective and Ds played him normal. I had an epic "tape session" with DC about it in the Redskins game, where he argued for the same, which clearly wasn't the case. Overall, I think there's a correlation between Weeden's earlier improvements and TRich's decline in productivity and the Offense design as such didn't help much too...fact remains, Weeden DID beat opposing Ds deep at an AVG NFL level....btw, Seahawks and Dolphins had less 20+yds pass plays than the Browns
I would have to see the tape session. the fact is I watch the replays all year long and I did see what I saw.
being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
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OK replying to a bunch of stuff here and btw I have no horse in this race.
Luck was one of the best if not thee best in presnap reads in college that I have ever seen and that helped him tremendously last year. He was taking over a good team that had a bad year because their backup sucked when Peyton went down.
Tannehill's receivers killed him. Hartline was the only guy on the team that could catch anything. He played better than his stats showed.
Wilson had more trouble reading defenses than Weeden but he had the legs to buy him some time to get out of the pocket where he could see. I think he will struggle in year two as running QBs often get figured out after their first big year.
RG3 was a phenom. I think he took over the worst offense, pulled them together the quickest and really fired up a team that was in mortal depression.
The Browns improved tremendously under Weeden, it would have been impossible to have been worse but he made the offense look like a real offense at least at times. Weeden opened the field up.
He did have trouble reading the defense when working from under center. He would often not get deep enough in his drops and had passes knocked down. He allowed himself to be fooled by NFL defenses when they showed a lot of presnap movement. Then he got to where he was afraid to let it go.
He did show improved pocket presense as he went from afraid to move to stepping up into the pocket and delivering the ball accurately. The quick 3 steps however was a nightmare for him.
Weeden did cry like a little girl to the press when he received criticism.
The bottom line is the Browns scored more points and it looked like a real NFL offense out there with Weeden where as it was just a nightmare to even watch with Colt.
The new system is made for Weeden. He should improve but how much we will not know. He did show enough to be given a chance but not enough to keep the Browns from finding his replacement.
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Archbold, decent receivers are not great receivers. I didn't read all the posts but here is my take. Chud plays to the strengths of his team, if that is putting Weeden in the most comfortable position....... the shotgun.....he will.
In my opinion, the shotgun is much more explosive than the typical 3 step drop.
We need explosiveness on this offense. If we have any chance at sniffing the playoffs this year, we better surprise some folks.
Shore up the defense and let it fly on offense while pounding it out with Trent Richardson.
If Weeden is the man this year............... make him feel at home.
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I agree with that too.
Luck made a lot of boneheaded mistakes last year. Plenty of errors. And he had Reggie Wayne who had one of the best years of his career. I think his game against the Packers where he had 212 yards made that team's season.
He was being doubled constantly and still getting it done.
Where Luck stood out to me was at the end of games you could tell he wasn't ever rattled in close ones. That portends well for him.
But I think Reggie Wayne deserves the most credit for the successful passing game last year more than anyone else.
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After all the debating back & forth... all the stats tossed about regarding the Freshman QB's and all the apples/oranges comparisons, this quote: Quote:
The new system is made for Weeden. He should improve but how much we will not know. He did show enough to be given a chance but not enough to keep the Browns from finding his replacement.
Is for me, the bottom-line distillation that matters.
Weeden was uncomfortable in general for much of last year. He was a rook starting QB, in an O that was ill-suited to his experiences in college (as I've read it, he worked from the 'gun less than almost any other QB in the league last year).His primary 'security blanket' broke 2 ribs, and went from dangerous to ordinary, overnight. Aan as Deej said, his HC flipped the script on him just as he was starting to "get it," -and I think that set him up to overthink his throws/progressions at precisely the time in the season when the play on the field should have started to slow down for him.
So... IHMO, there is almost nothing about last year's performance that can indicate what we might see from Weedz this year. Too many variables have been brought into the mix to make any reasonable predictions. It's the main reason why I'm actually looking forward to this new season... it will be a blank slate- not just for Weeden, but for virtually every potential playmaker on the team- and that includes the D.
.02
Clem
"too many notes, not enough music-"
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Indy scored roughly 50 more points last year than we did. They scored 6 TD on "other". (1 PR, 1 KR, and 4 INT return) We scored 1 PR and 2 INT return overall for the year. Huge difference offensively there.  Now I do have to say that I really, really like how Luck brought his team back to win games on numerous occasions. He was extremely impressive in that regard. However, in many cases, he brought the team back because he was really lousy up to that point in certain games. However, he was a rookie, so I expect that he will improve. Weeden was also a rookie. He was placed into an offense that didn't fit him at all. He didn't get one bit of coaching support as far as having familiar plays installed, being allowed to play from the shotgun, and so on. This year he will get that support, so it's time for him to show major improvement. I think that we will see a much improved Brandon Weeden. Whether or not he improves enough is the question. Hopefully he will, and we can just let the team develop and add support pieces on offense and defense for the next few years.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Not to mention that if Weeden was expected to be as good as Luck he'd have been drafted top 5 at worst.
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All of this stuff is like trying to determine the content of a picture with a few pixels of information.
I am not going to make apologies for Weeden. He played like a rookie QB, had some good games, some bad games, and a really terrible game to start the season with. But I just don't get the Browns mentality of you must change the QB, when you just changed the QB.
The team started with a rookie dinged up running back, a rookie RT, a rookie WR, a second year WR, an over the hill TE, and the fullback who shall not be named. Did you really expect the Pats offense?
The reality is the Weeden did not light it up, but showed at least a willingness to throw the ball down field.. That has been missing since DA. Frye, Quinn and McCoy were afraid or not able to throw the ball down field.
I think it is a bit premature to toss Weeden out just yet. He is on a short leash and this season will be it, if he does not improve, just because of the age. But if there is hope, Norm and Chud will be able to get the most out of Weeden. I can't tell you if the Browns will draft a QB early or late, but if they do, well that is the indication as to how much slack Weeden has. Personally I would not mind to see a late round flyer, but the reality is that you can't expect anything from them, as it is more likely to be Wynn and not Brady.
With regard to Luck, don't tell me the Indy did not tank the 11 season to get him. Look at their record for the years before Manning was hurt... That team had talent and that draft was restocking at its best. That is the best case for an NBA style lotto if I ever saw one. Anyone who saw him play knew that he was the best thing to come along since Manning.
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!
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jc The main point here is that Weeden finally has a "real" offensive coordinator. 
GO BROWNS!
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Indy scored roughly 50 more points last year than we did. They scored 6 TD on "other". (1 PR, 1 KR, and 4 INT return)
We scored 1 PR and 2 INT return overall for the year.
Huge difference offensively there.
Really?
You guys are killing me w/these meaningless stats. Did you watch the freaking games?
Did you not notice how putrid Indy's OL was and how well our pass blocked? I really think Luck's career could be dramatically shortened if he keeps taking the pounding that he took last year. Did you watch the playoff game? The kid was getting killed. He showed unbelievable guts. After the game, you could see the respect that Baltimore had for him.
Reggie Wayne is a fine receiver, better than any that we have....but to say that he deserves most of the credit is ludicrous. Luck was asked to do more for his team than any other qb in the league last year. They were a team that had gotten old. Their OL was miserable. Who was their other WR and TE? RB--never heard of him. Their defense was very young. Arians has admitted as to how much pressure he put on Luck.
In contrast, Weeden gets all day to throw and has the playbook dummied down for him. And I keep hearing about how great Heckert is and all the young talent we have. Yet, when defending Weeden, it seems that all that great talent is no longer there. 
And all this started because I said Weeden holds the ball too long. It's amazing how arguments evolve into the point of being turned around. Pssstttt guys......I have a secret: Weeden holds to the ball too long.
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You guys are killing me w/these meaningless stats. Did you watch the freaking games?
Yes I do. In fact while Weeden had a worse season as Luck, he outplayed Luck head to head on the road. While Weeden had a better pass blocking OL, Luck had a much better running game and receivers. Gordon dropped a beautifully thrown game winner, that was the difference in that game. TRich rushed 8 times for 8yds. The RB you do not even know had 20 rushes for solid 84yds. The TE you didn't know was just the best TE of last year's draft class and Luck's TE in College, Coby Fleener. The "other", no2 WR was a rookie that had as good a season as our "no1" WR Gordon. Just because you don't know them doesnt mean they're crap
Vers, any idiot can smell your agenda in almost every post of yours. Bringing up Heckert, who nobody's talking about in here, in every post doesn't help. At least you've given up fighting windmills with regards to Holmgren, you've now taken your bashing to Heckert to provoke some action I guess...all that from the poster that once famously said "can we please move on from regime agenda debates" and who "wants to talk football" instead. It's pretty disappointing and frankly quite boring
Next time, at least try to tell the whole story when you compare players..and nobody is arguing that Weeden had as good a season as Luck, just that it wasn't as bad as you're trying to picture it by cherry picking circumstances
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I agree that Weeden holds the ball too long, and that he actually seemed to get worse as the year went along. I don't know why, other than perhaps his coaching was leading to confusion. However, and this is key ..... Weeden was a rookie. Rookie QBs generally struggle ... especially when they are coming into a completely foreign offensive scheme.
I think that we'll see an improved Weeden this year. Just how much improved will determine whether or not he gets next year too.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
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Of course I forgot that " " - on this subject we just are very far apart. The words you state from Joe are True...but the Inside the line meaning you put in there is way off from being FACT. I thought is was So so clear he was talking about the System utilized by Shurmur n the system now being utilized by Norv/Chud.
Also to corroborate the system thing are articles reporting on the Comfort Weeden has shown so far in the new system and notably how Quickly he is getting rid of the ball. Sometimes I think you get too stuck on all of Heckerts picks must be BAD cause too many not only here but quite frankly around the NFL see the change from Heckert to Lombardi as a DOWNGRADE.
but just like I understood the firing of Mangini - I also understand the firing of Heckert...both just didn't fit in the NEW REGIME. I got over it fast...maybe thanks to my short term memory thing. But I'm sorry there is no way JOE THOMAS is going into this season...Totally Dissing his Starting QB if it was so we would have heard it over n over n over on the network Sports news cause we were in the DEAD ZONE and anything Negative on the Browns is something the Bozo's love. Not one peep...as in Joe Thomas questions Weedens skills. Actually I read how improved Weeden has gotten (so far) in his release time n it fits exactly with what Joe Thomas has stated.
Weeden - who knows...I can only hope - I am pretty certain he will get this season n not much more if he struggles. As much as I think Shurmur's O was a terrible fit for Weeden - I think Chud/Norv's O as a perfect fit. There is a big big difference from DA skill set n Weeden's - There was never a college season where DA hit 60% - Weeden has a reputation on being rather accurate. Its a matter of comfort but DA just is no where close to ever being the accurate QB for this offense. Oh n his CAREER year with us in 07 56.5% comp. his NFL career 52.8% - To suggest that Weeden cannot come close to DA is not that sound of an observation. Once you get that Vertical stretch n force teams to drop 2 safeties you have the underneath routes n DA just could not hit those passes which hurt our later 07 season.
Also the fact that we went after Campbell instead of DA I thought to be rather alarming - especially after DA campaigned to come here. So I find it hard to believe that DA is greater than Weeden. I also don't believe Joe Thomas with a new Regime would remotely THROW his starting QB under the bus as you suggest. Nobody is calling you a liar reporting on the words Joe Thomas stated. But its your insisting on the MEANING in between the lines. That just doesn't make sense.
JMHO - no insults. Nobody is correct all the time. Nobody is trying to force you to change your mind...just its very speculative n does not seem to FIT. Keep your opinion stick with it...but don't present it as fact is pretty much what I'm saying. n If I'm way off base similarly I would hope you brought that to my attention. Thats all - nothing personal.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
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Verse, I was simply saying that if we do lose by a slim margin in a very high scoring game, that fault is not that of the QB. It wasn't a prediction.  As a Browns fan, all I can really say is that I saw quotes that said the Redskins were building the O around RG3's skill set. And they did. Andrew Luck is heads and shoulders above any QB in last years draft as it pertains to a pocket passer and the best I've seen come along in some time now. I'm not a Weeden apologist. At the end of the season I gave my opinion and it wasn't great. I felt he did progress some from the beginning to the middle of the season. That's what I saw with my eyes. But from the middle of the season until the end? I actually feel I saw a QB digress. He looked lost, held onto the ball too long and appeared to have a lot of trouble going through his progressions. I really don't feel those points are worthy of debate. I do know that a QB was drafted that was not suited for the system we ran. It was the square peg in the round hole effect. That lays squarely on the former front office. I also believe history dictates that last years QB class was certainly the acception to the rule. History dictates that rookie QB's don't come into this league and light it up. And I think you know this. So we can use last years "fluke" as it pertains to rookie QB production..... Or we can look at history and see that often times a QB's rookie year isn't much if any of an indication of how his career will turn out. My take in short form? Do I think it's possible for Weeden to turn it around? Yes I do. Do I think the odds are good that he will make a quality franchise QB? No I don't. What I do know is he is being put into the best position to make the most of his talent under Norv. There are no excuses left this year as far as how he plays the QB position. It is my hope he succeeds but I'm not holding my breath. As it pertains to "some of the posters on this board", I simply do not challenge their view of Weeden. That horse has been beaten to death long ago. So by not challenging them, it doesn't mean I always agree with their sentiment. I've just simply had enough of going around and round with them. And we'll all just see how things pan out. 
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Do I think the odds are good that he will make a quality franchise QB?
I'd call those odds as being even right now. The book is far from written on him, though, because of his age, he needs to start writing it faster.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Excuses, excuses, we hear them all too much. (sorry, that's a song by the Kingsmen Quartet)
But no, I don't believe I'm being too simplistic if thoughts are allowed to be based on past judgments of qb's
I see. The Colt syndrome. So if the opposing team manages to score 38 points and we lose by three, it's all Weeden's fault.
At least your being up front with how silly that sounds and making it obvious how unrealistic and irrational that is.
Thanks for that anyway Arch.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Indy scored roughly 50 more points last year than we did. They scored 6 TD on "other". (1 PR, 1 KR, and 4 INT return)
We scored 1 PR and 2 INT return overall for the year.
Huge difference offensively there.
I'm seeing the stats Luck: 23 TDs vs Weeden 14 TDs, so its 9 TDs difference, 64% more with only one more game....
18 Luck Ints vs 17 Brandon Ints , 6% more but 21% more yards per game and 54% more TDs, and you say there isn't a huge difference?
Weeden QBR 26.6, Luck 76.5 , (ESPN stats) so no comparison there, Weeden is closer to Sanchez and Brady Quinn....
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Just clicking I really like Weeden, I really like Weeden, and a couple years ago, I reallly liked Jason Campbell. Now Weeden had a chance, late in a game, (I forget which) early in the season last year, if he led a drive, and got a td, they would have the game in control. Weeden had that chance at least a couple more times, if I remember, to bring the Browns back from behind late in the game. Well if you want to call a runningback score doing it or not, I don't. What I'm saying is, (because I was looking for it, and I don't remember seeing it,) the Next time Weeden Brings the Browns back from behind with a late game touchdown pass, will be the first time. And after saying that, what I'm trying to say is, that With Jason Campbell on the roster, the next time Weeden gets the chance to lead the team back from behind with a late in the game touchdown pass, He better do it. 
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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But from the middle of the season until the end? I actually feel I saw a QB digress.
I agree. He probably did. The deal is you see that with a lot of rookies. They hit the rookie wall.
A wall caused by combines, private workouts, drafts, mini camps, all heading off a college season. It's like a year of non stop football. For a rookie it is like a 45 game season when you take everything in to account.
I think a little time off is a big benefit that rookies don't get and why you see most by game 10 with that 500 yard gaze in their eyes.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Vers, any idiot can smell your agenda in almost every post of yours.
Yeah, I am the only one who has an agenda. You certainly don't have an agenda. It certainly isn't obvious.
I provided all kinds of football related items. Pocket presence. Holding the ball too long. Not making pre-snap reads. Not reading coverages. No anticipation. Poor footwork. A baseball windup. Crying to the media about a play call. Not standing in the pocket, etc, etc, etc.
What the hell do you call that?
You bring in stats and act like they are gospel. I bring in stats and you laugh and scoff at them. You make stupid-butt comparisons to Luck and accuse me of an agenda? LMAO! Ask any GM in the league who they would rather have.
DJ, you're a football geek. Meaning that you read a lot. Use other people's opinions, but you obviously never played a down. You got a big head because no one has been challenging you for a couple of years, but you are full of crap.
In fact, you ain't even worth the time anymore.
Although, I still reserve the right to point out your BS at my discretion. 
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But from the middle of the season until the end? I actually feel I saw a QB digress.
I agree. He probably did. The deal is you see that with a lot of rookies. They hit the rookie wall.
A wall caused by combines, private workouts, drafts, mini camps, all heading off a college season. It's like a year of non stop football. For a rookie it is like a 45 game season when you take everything in to account.
I think a little time off is a big benefit that rookies don't get and why you see most by game 10 with that 500 yard gaze in their eyes.
Agreed.
But what's troubling is the lack of progression on rookie errors that never really seemed to subside or correct in any way.
He would still make the same passes that made you scream 'don't throw that!' before he threw it. Unless our coaching staff was completely inept (hmm...), you would hope to see some sort of progress there. Not even necessarily ceasing the problem, but a step or two in the right direction.
I didn't see any of that.
I'm glad that McCoy is gone, but all things considered I think the only thing Weeden has on him is size, arm strength and pocket presence. Colt was smarter, faster, better under pressure and more of a leader.
And that's pretty bad - drafting a guy in the 1st round who isn't far and away better than The Cherub.
I wouldn't be shocked if Weeden is gone this year, but i doubt it. But next year, he's probably gone.
I really hope I'm wrong. I'm not one of the Football posters who need their opinions to be validated. But I don't think I'm wrong.
He'll get his shot in an offense more suited to him, and he deserves another crack at it - there's potential there. Limited, but there.
I think Heckert's career here was done when the team was sold, but that last move puts a really negative mark on his report card.
And he bragged that Weeden was #13 overall on our board.
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Joined: Mar 2013
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Of course I forgot that " " - on this subject we just are very far apart. The words you state from Joe are True...but the Inside the line meaning you put in there is way off from being FACT. I thought is was So so clear he was talking about the System utilized by Shurmur n the system now being utilized by Norv/Chud.
LOL man. The guy is talking about QBs who hold the ball vs. QBs who get rid of it on time and you turn it around to make it sound like he is talking about Shurmur. LMAO........what a crock.
And why the hell do you keep bringing up DA? Sheesh.....he did IN FACT have a better year than Weeden in his first year as a starter.
Accuracy? Are you telling ME you want me to believe those stupid collegiate stats? Or, are you like Dj and just trying to convince other posters that you know all and I don't know jack squat? You see, I freaking know better! Almost all Spread QBs have high completion percentages. Didn't Colt have an obscene completion percentage? Are you telling me he is accurate too? And I watched the games, tab.......Weeden was not even close to accurate. He was erratic. DA's HC in college came right out and said he didn't care about completion percentage or interceptions. He wanted to challenge teams down the field. Nothing like leaving out Most of the Story, tab.
I talked football. Every freaking concern I listed about Weeden occurred. Your claim that I making it up because I didn't like H and H is absurd. What are other people around the nation saying about Weeden? They agree more w/you and the other apologists or me? Do you really think the new regime is sold on this kid?
And did you really bring up what he is doing this year? LOL.....wow! Do you remember the reports from LAST year and how glowing they were?
You know, I actually think in your zest to defend H and H, you are saying good things about Weeden, even though deep inside, you know he was putrid last year. How do you like an accusation like that? You freaking dismiss my football knowledge and make it like it's all about agenda. That infuriates me!!!
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Joined: Mar 2013
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I agree that Weeden holds the ball too long, and that he actually seemed to get worse as the year went along. I don't know why, other than perhaps his coaching was leading to confusion. However, and this is key ..... Weeden was a rookie. Rookie QBs generally struggle ... especially when they are coming into a completely foreign offensive scheme.
I think that we'll see an improved Weeden this year. Just how much improved will determine whether or not he gets next year too.
No problem, YTown. I sure do spark debate, though.
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Joined: Mar 2013
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Verse, I was simply saying that if we do lose by a slim margin in a very high scoring game, that fault is not that of the QB. It wasn't a prediction.
No problem Pit and I agree w/you on your other post to arch. He is full of crap, too. It's like he wants the guy to fail. That's just as stupid as the guys who are acting like Weeden played well and it was ALL the fault of Shurmur.
I like your post here. It's good football stuff. Something I can sink my teeth into.
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As a Browns fan, all I can really say is that I saw quotes that said the Redskins were building the O around RG3's skill set. And they did.
Yes, they did. And I hate saying this in this particular post, but I couldn't understand why we drafted Weeden knowing what type of offense we run and how inflexible The Big Show was about it.
To combat that slam, I will say that I was excited when Chud was hired because I knew that the offense he ran here in Cleveland and his early years in Carolina was far different than what he ran when Cam came. I said.....finally---we have a coach who will adjust his scheme to the talent around him.
Needless to say, I was perturbed when everyone was saying we shouldn't get Alex Smith because he didn't fit Chud and Norv's system. I am thinking.....we are tied into one offense--AGAIN?!? I really hope not, but I bet we are.
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Andrew Luck is heads and shoulders above any QB in last years draft as it pertains to a pocket passer and the best I've seen come along in some time now.
Thank you. Finally someone who watched the kid. I have no allegiances to the kid, but man, he impressed me. He took a freaking beating. He is so smart. So much of their success rode squarely on his shoulders. Yet, people just look at the stats and say him and Weeds are comparable. And I don't care what anyone says, he was --and is better than RGIII, but that's for another day.
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I also believe history dictates that last years QB class was certainly the acception to the rule. History dictates that rookie QB's don't come into this league and light it up. And I think you know this. So we can use last years "fluke" as it pertains to rookie QB production..... Or we can look at history and see that often times a QB's rookie year isn't much if any of an indication of how his career will turn out.
Yes, I agree w/both parts. Last year's group was unreal. It skewed things. I do understand that most rookies struggle. I am not that stupid. I really ain't arguing much, but consider these two points:
--Weeden is older.
--Some of the things he struggled w/are not really teachable. It's more of you have it--or you don't. And by that, I mean reading coverages [not defenses--that can be taught] and anticipation. Heck, even pocket presence is more of a gift than a learned outcome.
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I felt he did progress some from the beginning to the middle of the season. That's what I saw with my eyes. But from the middle of the season until the end? I actually feel I saw a QB digress.
This is the one area where I can give the guy a break. I think a big part of that was how Shurmur made such a big freaking deal about interceptions. I think the kid was over thinking things. He became more tentative. I do think he will improve under Norv and Chud. I have very little doubt about that. I just am doubtful that it will be enough. I don't think he is football smart or a very hard worker. I don't think he is that accurate when pressured and is only accurate on a few throws--mainly crossing routes, slants, and the intermediate quick out.
Anyway.......good post. I enjoy these types of discussions.
Btw----a good friend PMed and said it was more entertaining when we were fighting.  I told him......just wait.
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So, you think I'm full of crap and I want Weeden to fail.
Fair enough. You can think that.
If you read what I said, you'll see that I said "Weeden has no excuses this year." Throw out the good o line. Forget the running back, and the receivers.
Let's focus on what we were told to expect out of Weeden. We were told he's deadly accurate. We didn't see that. We were told how smart he was. We didn't see that. We were told he would "throw open" receivers. We didn't see that.
What DID we see? We saw a rookie quarterback in what excuse makers are now saying wasn't an offense designed with Weeden in mind. But we're now being told this offense will be designed for Weeden.
Presto. He puts up, or he's gone. Right? He's got the o line. He has receivers, he has a back (that despite his injuries, still did fairly well), AND, he's got an o coordinator that will use Weeden's skills. Right?
This is his season. Put up, or shut up. He's got many starts under his belt.
If you take that as me wanting him to fail, you're just not thinking.
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If you read what I said, you'll see that I said "Weeden has no excuses this year."
How can you say that before one game is even played?
We really don't know if TRich is all that.
We really don't know if the wide receivers are great route runners or very intelligent. We don't even know if they will keep their heads on straight. Both guys have been unreliable in the past.
Our TE situation is a big question mark.
We don't know how well Chud will do as a HC.
We don't know about what injuries may take place.
I think your approach to this is just as ridiculous as Dj's and the other apologists on here. It seems like you are PO'ed because Colt got the screws. I agree w/you that he did, but he's gone. All I ask is for you all to play fair.
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Hall of Famer
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Let's focus on what we were told to expect out of Weeden. We were told he's deadly accurate. We didn't see that. We were told how smart he was. We didn't see that. We were told he would "throw open" receivers. We didn't see that.
about what I saw.
being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
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Presto. He puts up, or he's gone. Right?
My thoughts exactly. We'll know this year if he's going to cut it. I guess that makes me a Colt lover? How can that be, Vers accused me of being a Weeden lover.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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Presto. He puts up, or he's gone. Right?
My thoughts exactly. We'll know this year if he's going to cut it. I guess that makes me a Colt lover? How can that be, Vers accused me of being a Weeden lover.
Odd, isn't it?
I made factual statements about the Browns when Colt was the qb. That got me labeled as a Colt lover. Colt isn't even on the team now, and I make what most would consider factual statements about Weeden.......ya know, holding him to the same standards, and I get accused of being a Colt lover.
I guess the Weeden lovers are afraid of having their boy have to man up? Same standards apply, but weeds has a lot more tools. From what the Weeds lovers tell us any way. His accuracy, his big arm.........now he's going to be in an O that will utilize his strength, with an O coordinator that will utilize his strengths
That's what we've been told by the Weeden fan base. All I'm saying is it's put up time. No excuses. I expect great things out of our first round draft pick, that's now a second year player with plenty of starts under his belt.
Vers, if you take that to mean I want him to fail.......again, you're wrong.. .
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To be fair - and this is just my opinion....
You tend to be a reactionary guy.
You didn't like the direction that the team was going, and you latched onto YTown's proclamation that Weeden was the cure to our ills.
YTown came to that opinion because his tunnel vision narrowed him down to anyone but McCoy was the shiny new answer.
You called him on that - and I agree with you calling him on that, I think you're right - but you got so into the debate the you took the stance that Weeden wouldn't fix things.
Again ... I agree with you. I'm with you.
But you took it to the point where now you're fed up and Weeden better put up or shut up.
And, again ... I agree. I agree 100%. But there is a method to the madness, and from my outside viewpoint ... that's where your angle started.
All our angles start somewhere.
But I disagree about what you're being accused of. I think we all have a certain bias. And IMO, that's where I think yours started from. Just a guess.
Anyway, I see where you come from, I see where others come from ... I tend to side with you, here, for the most part.
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To be fair - and this is just my opinion....
You tend to be a reactionary guy.
You didn't like the direction that the team was going, and you latched onto YTown's proclamation that Weeden was the cure to our ills.
YTown came to that opinion because his tunnel vision narrowed him down to anyone but McCoy was the shiny new answer.
You called him on that - and I agree with you calling him on that, I think you're right - but you got so into the debate the you took the stance that Weeden wouldn't fix things.
Again ... I agree with you. I'm with you.
But you took it to the point where now you're fed up and Weeden better put up or shut up.
And, again ... I agree. I agree 100%. But there is a method to the madness, and from my outside viewpoint ... that's where your angle started.
All our angles start somewhere.
But I disagree about what you're being accused of. I think we all have a certain bias. And IMO, that's where I think yours started from. Just a guess.
Anyway, I see where you come from, I see where others come from ... I tend to side with you, here, for the most part.
Cliffs notes of the past year for the new guys.
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Practice Squad
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What I'm saying is, (because I was looking for it, and I don't remember seeing it,) the Next time Weeden Brings the Browns back from behind with a late game touchdown pass, will be the first time.
And after saying that, what I'm trying to say is, that With Jason Campbell on the roster, the next time Weeden gets the chance to lead the team back from behind with a late in the game touchdown pass, He better do it.
He's already brought us back from behind late in the game. That would be against Dallas last year, in a game we would have won had Haden been playing instead of Skrine.
If the roof on Lucas Oil was closed, it also would have been against Indy on a perfectly thrown pass to Gordon that was dropped.
If Josh Cribbs doesn't have a complete brain fart, a TD to Gordon in the 4th doesn't get called back and gives us a much better chance to win at home against the Ratbirds.
I don't think you were looking too hard, as this was pretty easy to see.
As far as Weeden is concerned, the jury is still out on him.
Will he thrive in an offense that is likely much more suited to him? I have no idea, and neither does anyone in the world.
What I do know is that this will be Weeden's BEST CHANCE at succeeding in the NFL.
He gets this year to prove himself.
If he does well, awesome. We have a QB we can rely on for at least five years, something we have not had since Bernie.
If he doesn't do well, cut the line and try to grab a QB in next years draft in a much stronger class.
Proud fan of the Pulaski Academy football strategy.
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Here are my following opinions (with some facts thrown in):
1. Weeden is old. He is doing his best Chris Weinke impression thus far.
2. Weeden throws the football better than any QB we've had since Vinny Testaverde.
3. Weeden was a terrible fit in the WCO.
4. Weeden makes dumb decisions at times.
5. Weeden often is confused and pats and holds the ball too long.
6. Weeden can look really good out of the shotgun in a clean pocket.
7. The Norv Turner offense should fit Weeden's strengths to a tee.
8. If Weeden doesn't perform well this year he should be off the team.
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