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Linky n independent review of the U.S. government's anti-terrorism response after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks reported Tuesday that it is "indisputable" the United States engaged in torture and the George W. Bush administration bears responsibility. The report by the Constitution Project, a non-partisan Washington-based think-tank, is an ambitious review of the Bush administration's approach to the problems of holding and interrogating detainees after the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. The report says brutality has occurred in war before, "But there is no evidence there had ever before been the kind of considered and detailed discussions that occurred after September 11, directly involving a president and his top advisers on the wisdom, propriety and legality of inflicting pain and torment on some detainees in our custody." The former U.S. ambassador to the United Nations under President George W. Bush, John Bolton, called the report "completely divorced from reality" and stressed that the procedures were "lawyered, and lawyered again, and lawyered again." "The whole point of the Bush administration's review of the techniques was so that no one would be tortured," he said. "The intention was precisely the opposite." The Constitution Project surveyed the ways in which prisoners were held and interrogated at Guantanamo Bay, in Afghanistan and Iraq, and at secret CIA "black prisons." The report is the product of a two-year study based on evidence in the public record. It was conducted by a bipartisan task force of 11 experts from a broad range of ideological perspectives and professions. The Constitution Project appointed both former Republican and Democratic policymakers and members of Congress, retired generals, judges, lawyers and academics. Among them was co-chairman Asa Hutchinson, who was President George W. Bush's undersecretary for border and transportation security at the Department of Homeland Security from 2003 to 2005. The other co-chairman was former Rep. James R. Jones, a Democrat. Much of the legal justification for what was called "enhanced interrogation" by some, but torture by the Constitution Project, was drafted by John Yoo, at the Justice Department's Office of Legal Counsel. The Constitution Project report cites Alberto Mora, the general counsel of the Navy, as being one of the senior officials troubled by the expanded interrogation techniques, and quotes him as asking Yoo whether the president could lawfully order a detainee to be tortured. "Yes, the president could authorize torture, he said was Yoo's response," according to the report. "Yoo said that whether the techniques should be used wasn't a legal question, but rather it was a policy question," the report says. A call for response to Yoo, who now teaches at the University of California-Berkeley School of Law, was not immediately answered. The Constitution Project said that he did not participate in the preparation of their report. As a result of the Bush administration's green-lighting of "enhanced interrogation techniques," the report says, "U.S. forces, in many instances, used interrogation techniques on detainees that constitute torture. American personnel conducted an even larger number of interrogations that involved 'cruel, inhuman, or degrading' treatment." "Both categories of actions violate U.S. laws and international treaties. Such conduct was directly counter to values of the Constitution and our nation," The Constitution Project report said. Former Vice President Dick Cheney, the most vocal defender of the Bush administration's anti-terror policies, said in 2011 that he had "no regrets" about the harsh interrogation policies pursued in the wake of the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks. Cheney was asked in 2009 if he still advocated waterboarding, and told NBC News, "I would strongly support using it again if circumstances arose where we had a high-value detainee and that was the only way we could get him to talk." The executive director of Boston-based Physicians for Human Rights, Donna McKay, said that her group "has long contended that interrogation techniques such as waterboarding, sleep deprivation, and stress positions did in fact constitute torture. We are gratified that a highly respected bipartisan panel led by two former members of Congress uniformly concurs. Their report should put to rest any lingering doubt about the severity of the abuse that took place at Guantánamo Bay and other US detention facilities." The review found "There is no firm or persuasive evidence that the widespread use of harsh interrogation techniques by U.S. forces produced significant information of value. There is substantial evidence that much of the information adduced from the use of such techniques was not useful or reliable." "There are, nonetheless, strong assertions by some former senior government officials that the use of those techniques did, in fact, yield valuable intelligence that resulted in operational and strategic successes. But those officials say that the evidence of such success may not be disclosed for reasons of national security," the report noted. "History shows that the American people have a right to be skeptical of such claims, and to decline to accept any resolution of this issue based largely on the exhortations of former officials who say, in essence, 'Trust us' or 'If you knew what we know but cannot tell you,'" the Constitution Project said. "The Task Force believes there was no justification for the responsible government and military leaders to have allowed those lines to be crossed. Doing so damaged the standing of our nation, reduced our capacity to convey moral censure when necessary and potentially increased the danger to U.S. military personnel taken captive," it said. "Democracy and torture cannot peacefully coexist in the same body politic," the report said. "The Task Force also believes and hopes that publicly acknowledging this grave error, however belatedly, may mitigate some of those consequences and help undo some of the damage to our reputation at home and abroad." President Barack Obama has declined to investigate interrogation methods under the administration of his predecessor, George W. Bush. The counterterrorism adviser at Human Rights Watch, Laura Pitter, said, "The finding of torture by a diverse, bipartisan task force, without subpoena power and looking solely at the public record, shows the need for an official US investigation into detainee abuse. The indisputable evidence of torture clearly raises the question: what will the US government do about it?" The answer is probably nothing, but at least the truth is known.
There will be no playoffs. Can’t play with who we have out there and compounding it with garbage playcalling and worse execution. We don’t have good skill players on offense period. Browns 20 - Bears 17.
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I just want to say...
I...
Dont...
Care...
Do what works...get done what you need to get done...
If you need information and this person who is not cooperating...and we have no reason to protect this person's health or worry about what this person's feelings are? Do what is necessary.
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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Legend
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I would hazard a guess and say that some over the line interrogation happens after every major terrorist attack, anywhere in the world. I really don't see the big deal here if it happened right after the 9/11 attacks....and I fail to see why so much effort was put into this report. It just seems like the Bush haters can't let go. If another attack of that magnitude happens on our soil, I would expect the same....no matter who is in office.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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Legend
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I don't care what they have to do to keep this country safe. Chances are if they are really pressing someone for info, it's because they have info.
I don't expect everyone to agree with me, but that's just what I believe.
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Legend
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Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Kids, try this one, simple step to avoid torture: Don't commit an act of terrorism. 
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/hfMNC7T.jpg) "I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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Legend
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Quote:
Kids, try this one, simple step to avoid torture: Don't commit an act of terrorism.
And don't associate yourselves with terrorists.
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Legend
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Just clicking In response to the posts, wow,, I damn well know for sure that if this was said about Obama, you guys would be beating him to death.. Call me crazy, but I find that funny 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Dawg Talker
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#gmstrong
A smart person knows what to say.
A wise person knows whether or not to say it.
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Quote:
Just clicking
In response to the posts, wow,, I damn well know for sure that if this was said about Obama, you guys would be beating him to death.. Call me crazy, but I find that funny
And that is where you are 100% wrong.
I've NEVER been against the use of "enhanced interrogation". I'm a big fan of getting intelligence from the enemy.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Quote:
I just want to say...
I...
Dont...
Care...
Do what works...get done what you need to get done...
If you need information and this person who is not cooperating...and we have no reason to protect this person's health or worry about what this person's feelings are? Do what is necessary.
You have two faces.. When you do not like something you rail... when confronted with the uncomfortable facts you ignore them....
America has deplored torture, the stories from Vietnam and WWII set a standard. Yet when confronted with then possibility / now reality that these activities may have occurred the we get... I don't care....
Amazing... and people wonder why this country is losing its direction...
There will be no playoffs. Can’t play with who we have out there and compounding it with garbage playcalling and worse execution. We don’t have good skill players on offense period. Browns 20 - Bears 17.
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Legend
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Why does this feel like a "the sky is blue" article. Didn't we already know this was going on?
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/Punchsmack/punch.gif) “...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
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Legend
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If we capture a known terrorist, then I don't care what tactics and techniques we use to get information that can help save lives.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
Just clicking
In response to the posts, wow,, I damn well know for sure that if this was said about Obama, you guys would be beating him to death.. Call me crazy, but I find that funny
You're crazy. 
I'm pretty sure from the comments I've seen that people are fine/not fine with it regardless of who is in the presidency...mostly since this issue transcends politics (it might be the only one these days, unfortunately).
It's another thing where people far on one side or the other are ignorant, willfully blind, or simply don't want to accept the truth. Those who think/thought we didn't torture are on one side of the equation. Those who think/thought we shouldn't torture since it somehow demonizes us from the interrogation practices of the rest of the world are on the other.
Personally, I look at the Geneva Conventions, and I see a whole bunch of identifiable signatory states with territorial integrity, economies, cultures and governments to maintain. I don't see Al Qaeda's signature on there anywhere.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
#gmstrong
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Legend
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Quote:
Quote:
Just clicking
In response to the posts, wow,, I damn well know for sure that if this was said about Obama, you guys would be beating him to death.. Call me crazy, but I find that funny
And that is where you are 100% wrong.
I've NEVER been against the use of "enhanced interrogation". I'm a big fan of getting intelligence from the enemy.
That's you Purp,, Look man, I know you and trust you as a person. I do believe what you are saying, but you have to admit, there are many many folks on here that beat on Obama for things that if a republican president did them, they agree with.
I mean seriously, don't tell me you think otherwise,, you are way smarter than that.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Legend
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Quote:
Quote:
Just clicking
In response to the posts, wow,, I damn well know for sure that if this was said about Obama, you guys would be beating him to death.. Call me crazy, but I find that funny
You're crazy.
I'm pretty sure from the comments I've seen that people are fine/not fine with it regardless of who is in the presidency...mostly since this issue transcends politics (it might be the only one these days, unfortunately).
It's another thing where people far on one side or the other are ignorant, willfully blind, or simply don't want to accept the truth. Those who think/thought we didn't torture are on one side of the equation. Those who think/thought we shouldn't torture since it somehow demonizes us from the interrogation practices of the rest of the world are on the other.
Personally, I look at the Geneva Conventions, and I see a whole bunch of identifiable signatory states with territorial integrity, economies, cultures and governments to maintain. I don't see Al Qaeda's signature on there anywhere.
Whoa,, Back up there big fella.. I wasn't talking about the Geneva Convention or who signed what.
I was talking about some of the folks on this board and I'm absolutely convinced I'm right.
If you don't agree with me, that's perfectly ok, but don't start with all the other stuff.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Then don't make it as an all-inclusive blanket statement.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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All Pro
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I think its time we give Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld some "harsh interrogation" about what they knew in 2002 and 2003.
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Dawg Talker
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Quote:
It's another thing where people far on one side or the other are ignorant, willfully blind, or simply don't want to accept the truth. Those who think/thought we didn't torture are on one side of the equation. Those who think/thought we shouldn't torture since it somehow demonizes us from the interrogation practices of the rest of the world are on the other.
Agreed. The only thing that really matters is effectiveness. Torture or enhanced interrogation (whichever you prefer) is not always the most effective way to get information, and if it got in the way at some point, then it shouldn't have been used. Notice that there is nothing ethical about this statement. To torture or not to torture should be an instrumental calculation, not an ethical one.
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Hall of Famer
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Quote:
Quote:
I just want to say...
I...
Dont...
Care...
Do what works...get done what you need to get done...
If you need information and this person who is not cooperating...and we have no reason to protect this person's health or worry about what this person's feelings are? Do what is necessary.
You have two faces.. When you do not like something you rail... when confronted with the uncomfortable facts you ignore them....
America has deplored torture, the stories from Vietnam and WWII set a standard. Yet when confronted with then possibility / now reality that these activities may have occurred the we get... I don't care....
Amazing... and people wonder why this country is losing its direction...
I'm not going to ask you to justify your ideals since they obviously are founded in integrity and you're entitled to them.
However, you run the risk of confronting the problem: how do you deal with an amorphous, non-state actor adversary who is actively seeking to torture/kill your civilians?
When we have thwarted previous plots, how do you think we got our intel?
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
#gmstrong
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As if Americans are never tortured over seas.
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Legend
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Quote:
Quote:
It's another thing where people far on one side or the other are ignorant, willfully blind, or simply don't want to accept the truth. Those who think/thought we didn't torture are on one side of the equation. Those who think/thought we shouldn't torture since it somehow demonizes us from the interrogation practices of the rest of the world are on the other.
Agreed. The only thing that really matters is effectiveness. Torture or enhanced interrogation (whichever you prefer) is not always the most effective way to get information, and if it got in the way at some point, then it shouldn't have been used. Notice that there is nothing ethical about this statement. To torture or not to torture should be an instrumental calculation, not an ethical one.
And not one for armchair diplomats, but one for the people in the field that get paid to do the things that nobody really wants to know is happening. They are the ones that are trained to get information, and they are the ones that understand when to use pain, or fear, or when to put a carrot in front of the horse.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Just clicking
In response to the posts, wow,, I damn well know for sure that if this was said about Obama, you guys would be beating him to death.. Call me crazy, but I find that funny
You're crazy.
I'm pretty sure from the comments I've seen that people are fine/not fine with it regardless of who is in the presidency...mostly since this issue transcends politics (it might be the only one these days, unfortunately).
It's another thing where people far on one side or the other are ignorant, willfully blind, or simply don't want to accept the truth. Those who think/thought we didn't torture are on one side of the equation. Those who think/thought we shouldn't torture since it somehow demonizes us from the interrogation practices of the rest of the world are on the other.
Personally, I look at the Geneva Conventions, and I see a whole bunch of identifiable signatory states with territorial integrity, economies, cultures and governments to maintain. I don't see Al Qaeda's signature on there anywhere.
Whoa,, Back up there big fella.. I wasn't talking about the Geneva Convention or who signed what.
I was talking about some of the folks on this board and I'm absolutely convinced I'm right.
If you don't agree with me, that's perfectly ok, but don't start with all the other stuff.
Daman, I hope you know by now that I really respect you as a poster and the "crazy" part was in jest.
I'm sure you're right about some of the folks on this board, although I think for the most part, this happens to be one issue where most people have their stance regardless of who's in office.
I didn't bring up the Geneva Conventions in a germane way to our discussion. I was just throwing my general opinion out there on the matter.
It's just another example of how things can get jumbled in a message board discussion.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
#gmstrong
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Quote:
Just clicking
In response to the posts, wow,, I damn well know for sure that if this was said about Obama, you guys would be beating him to death.. Call me crazy, but I find that funny
I am certainly no Obama fan, but he could hold the towel during the water boarding sessions, for all I care.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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Quote:
I'm sure you're right about some of the folks on this board,
That was my only point.. I didn't even say what I personally felt about torture..
And yeah, I knew you were pulling my leg a little.. worry not.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Quote:
Quote:
Just clicking
In response to the posts, wow,, I damn well know for sure that if this was said about Obama, you guys would be beating him to death.. Call me crazy, but I find that funny
I am certainly no Obama fan, but he could hold the towel during the water boarding sessions, for all I care.
I used to be against torture.. still am for the most part, but seeing this thing in Boston and knowing what happened on 9/11 and everything about how we had to change our lives because of some nuts out there, I've soften my stance against Torture to a great degree.
I used to think we were better than that. I thought America and Americans were better than that.
Well, knowing I'm allowed to change my mind, I have. I'm not kidding when I say it's a hard change for me. I don't believe in torture for the most part, but I can see where there are times when it's the only avenue to get what you need to stop another 9/11 or Boston from happening.
Still, I don't like it. I've just learned to live with it and accept it as a necessary evil.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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No sane and reasonable thinking individual would feel good about torture. Just as no sane and reasonable thinking individual would participate in acts of terrorism. I don't see any place for torture in our criminal justice system, but when in comes to rooting out conspiracies designed to cause mass deaths of innocent civilians, in this country or any other, I have no moral qualms about it whatsoever.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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Quote:
No sane and reasonable thinking individual would feel good about torture. Just as no sane and reasonable thinking individual would participate in acts of terrorism. I don't see any place for torture in our criminal justice system, but when in comes to rooting out conspiracies designed to cause mass deaths of innocent civilians, in this country or any other, I have no moral qualms about it whatsoever.
Pretty much where I've landed.. still have a moral objection but can get past it.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Quote:
I damn well know for sure that if this was said about Obama, you guys would be beating him to death..
Some might..
I will stop short of saying that if we are "torturing" somebody then it's probably for a good reason. Our government has a long history of being wrong, as most governments do.
I would also say that anybody who thinks torturing an American citizen is wrong, especially if that citizen ends up not being guilty or in possession of any real information, then I would hope that they would think the same if that person was from a middle eastern nation.
As far as how I would feel if it was Obama or Bush... I will just say this, I don't know what Bill Clinton did to get answers after the first WTC bombing, the USS Cole bombing, the embassy bombings, but I feel very safe in saying it wasn't enough. If a little enhanced interrogation would have helped untangle the web of people involved and possibly brought more people to justice, I would not have been against it.
yebat' Putin
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j/c
These techniques are not what I would call torture in the brutal sense of the word. Bamboo isn't being shoved under finger nails, appendages aren't being hacked off or the drawing of blood using sharp objects.
They tilt you backwards, put a towel on your face and pour water on you. Well how much water would you pour over a detainees face to keep your children safe?
They keep you awake. Big deal!
They make you sit and or stand in uncomfortable positions! They did that to us in boot camp!
Please somebody tell me where the medieval torture is here!
Americans are better than this! Apart from the Jeffery Dahmer and John Wayne Gacy types we don't do this without a reason, and what is being done is daycare in comparison to what they do to our people! Just ask Daniel Pearl or Nick Berg how they feel about it! Or you could if their heads weren't cut off with a knife! JUST FOR BEING JEWISH!!!
Sorry, but I have no sympathy for people who engage in this kind of conduct. My sympathies lie with present and potential victims with the intent of preventing any more of these kinds of events.
WE DON'T NEED A QB BEFORE WE GET A LINE THAT CAN PROTECT HIM
my two cents...
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Quote:
Kids, try this one, simple step to avoid torture: Don't commit an act of terrorism.
You're right. Only the guilty are tortured.
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Click on the link that I posted. Yes, it's Wikipedia, but you can just google the name if you want a "reputable source". It will take 30 seconds to find out that this Quote:
These techniques are not what I would call torture in the brutal sense of the word
is just not true. I would call forcibly sodomizing someone is pretty brutal. For a board that prides itself on "looking behind the veil" so many are just willing to swallow whatever the government tells them when it comes to torture.
But when you detain people for over a decade without charging them for a crime, it's easier to just claim they're all guilty.
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Hall of Famer
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Kids, try this one, simple step to avoid torture: Don't commit an act of terrorism.
You're right. Only the guilty are tortured.
What happened to him was a tragedy, and a clear case of mistaken identity. Doesn't change my position on torture or my advise as to how to avoid it.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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So what was he supposed to do to avoid torture then? Pre-emptively change his name?
Fact: The US has and continues to torture innocent people. How people can condone it is beyond me. You know, especially since the US has signed agreements saying you can't torture people.
People have this faulty assumption that "oh we'll just torture because we need information". Torture does not work. Anyone will admit anything if you torture them enough - even innocent people.
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 27,946 Likes: 763 |
Torture can and does work. If it didn't, it wouldn't be used. Period.
I'm all for it, personally.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,398 Likes: 280 |
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Torture can and does work. If it didn't, it wouldn't be used. Period.
I'm all for it, personally.
It might work if the person actually knows something... but what about the people that don't really have the information that our government thinks they have?
yebat' Putin
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Legend
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Just skimming that Reuters article, it seems that one guy in the CIA who was directly involved disagrees with you, and wrote a book stating as much.
In either case, my stance remains.... I'm all for whatever those in the field determine is needed.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 27,946 Likes: 763
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 27,946 Likes: 763 |
Quote:
Quote:
Torture can and does work. If it didn't, it wouldn't be used. Period.
I'm all for it, personally.
It might work if the person actually knows something... but what about the people that don't really have the information that our government thinks they have?
That's where you have to trust the people conducting the interview. It's their job to determine whether someone is lying or not, if the information they are getting is a ploy, or not.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,398 Likes: 280
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,398 Likes: 280 |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Torture can and does work. If it didn't, it wouldn't be used. Period.
I'm all for it, personally.
It might work if the person actually knows something... but what about the people that don't really have the information that our government thinks they have?
That's where you have to trust the people conducting the interview. It's their job to determine whether someone is lying or not, if the information they are getting is a ploy, or not.
Maybe that's where we differ then, because for the most part, I don't trust them to have the right people, or to know when the people are hiding something or to know when the people are lying...
yebat' Putin
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Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Report: US Resorted to Torture
After 9/11 Terror
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