|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 343
2nd String
|
2nd String
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 343 |
Arizona became a top ten defense under Horton in about a half-season. Houston became an elite defense instantly under Wade Phillips.
So with the amount of talent this defense has already (after the draft, I think they'll have more talent than Horton had with Arizona), I would be surprised if they aren't a top ten unit by the end of the season, IF they bring in someone who can play cornerback across from Haden, i.e., not some random third round pick who will struggle for the entire year.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,218
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,218 |
Quote:
Arizona became a top ten defense under Horton
In what year, and in which category?
I'm pretty sure the category wasn't Points, and I KNOW it wasn't last year.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,936
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,936 |
+1
Horton's Arizona defense was decidedly average the two years he was DC. People shouldn't be expecting miracles now that he's here.
[color:"white"]"Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
-- Mark Twain [/color]
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 39,830
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 39,830 |
Quote:
Quote:
And both are NTs IMO, in any 3-4 alignment.
This part I agree with... Was definitely one of the major frustrations about going to a 3-4 base.
I just think Taylor has a better chance to succeed at DE.
I agree. Taylor can move. Rubin is more of a fireplug....hard to move, but not all over the place.
In the end, I don't want to trade any of the this year unless we get some super offer.
My feeling is let the mix play out so we can fully determine who fits and who might be expendable.
Huges and Winn played pretty darn well last year. We need to see how those guy blossom before we start trading players. As it is, there is room for all.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 343
2nd String
|
|
2nd String
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 343 |
Quote:
+1
Horton's Arizona defense was decidedly average the two years he was DC. People shouldn't be expecting miracles now that he's here.
If you look at stats without context, yeah — his defenses were average.
If you consider that Arizona had the second worse offense in the league last year and that it constantly put the defense in bad positions, Horton's defense was damn good. In other words, there's a reason Horton coming to Cleveland was such a big deal. He's one of the best DCs in the league, and most believe he will be a HC in the next two or three years.
I'm just going to leave this here as well: http://forums.azcardinals.com/showthread.php?t=63906
Also, Horton's defense was 4th last year in points per drive on the field (1.46 per drive), which is probably the best gauge of how good a defense is.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 1,300
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 1,300 |
Quote:
I'll say that I HOPE Sheard can make the transition to 3-4 OLB.. but I'm not sure if I see it. Charlie Casserly is on record as saying he thinks we could actually get a late 1st rounder in exchange for Sheard.
The problem here is this: If you throw him out there as a 3-4 OLB and turn him into Kenard Lang, you've destroyed his trade value IMO. His trade value is pretty high right now. I hope they got a GOOD look at him in mini-camp at OLB. They need to make a decision on him and go with it. Whether it's trading him & replacing him or doing everything they can do to make him succeed. Personally, I want to see him get a shot but in a draft that is stocked with good 3-4 OLB prospects.. I'd hate to see them turn him into Kenard Lang...
Exactly. If a team thnks you can still use Sheard (like right now with the claim of putting him at OLB) you can play the game of saying "why would we trade a starter" so we need a better pick for him. We will just keep him. It gives you leverage.
If you try him this year and he is terrible at the switch to OLB, teams will assume you will cut a guy who has no position in your new defnse.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,936
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,936 |
Quote:
If you look at stats without context, yeah — his defenses were average.
... or just watch the games. You can watch them on nfl.com. Horton's defense was simply average. Not bad. Not good. Just... average.
Quote:
If you consider that Arizona had the second worse offense in the league last year and that it constantly put the defense in bad positions, Horton's defense was damn good. In other words, there's a reason Horton coming to Cleveland was such a big deal. He's one of the best DCs in the league, and most believe he will be a HC in the next two or three years.
I'm just going to leave this here as well: http://forums.azcardinals.com/showthread.php?t=63906
Also, Horton's defense was 4th last year in points per drive on the field (1.46 per drive), which is probably the best gauge of how good a defense is.
The only defensive stat that really matters is points per game. Under Horton, his defenses in 2011 and 2012 finished 17th in the league. Again... not terrible, but hardly world-beating.
As I said before, I'm not expecting this defense to be all that great next season. Will it get better as the year goes on? Maybe. Hopefully. We'll just have to wait and see... it's what we do best here in Cleveland. 
[color:"white"]"Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
-- Mark Twain [/color]
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 343
2nd String
|
|
2nd String
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 343 |
Quote:
... or just watch the games. You can watch them on nfl.com. Horton's defense was simply average. Not bad. Not good. Just... average.
Good evidence. 
I've watched the games as well. They were clearly a top 10 defense, according to their fans, popular sentiment, and myself. Just declaring that their defense was only average isn't going to convince anyone, especially when I and many others completely disagree.
Quote:
The only defensive stat that really matters is points per game. Under Horton, his defenses in 2011 and 2012 finished 17th in the league. Again... not terrible, but hardly world-beating.
Again, good evidence. I like how you ignored everything I wrote.
The "only stat that really matters" isn't PPG. It's a more flawed stat than both points per drive and points per minute on the field — both of which the Arizona defense was top 5 in.
Explain to me how PPG is a better stat for evaluating defenses than points per drive. One is affected by a poor offense (such as Arizona's), the other isn't.
BTW, the Arizona defense was also 4th in takeaways.
Quote:
As I said before, I'm not expecting this defense to be all that great next season. Will it get better as the year goes on? Maybe. Hopefully. We'll just have to wait and see... it's what we do best here in Cleveland.
This defense will likely be top ten by the halfway point of this upcoming season, IF they find a decent guy to play CB2. There's a lot of talent on this front seven, and Horton has proven to be one of the best DCs in the NFL. Again, there's a reason there was an outrage from Arizona fans when he wasn't given the HC job. The guy is great at what he does. I don't know why fans here want to tear him down based on ONE misleading statistic.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,547
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,547 |
Arizona was 12th in total defense last year.
They were 17th in scoring defense.
They were 5th in passing defense.
They were tied for 11th in pass TDs allowed.
They were 28th in run defense. They were tied for 16th in run TDs allowed.
They were a pretty solid defense, above average in some important regards.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465 |
Quote:
... or just watch the games. You can watch them on nfl.com. Horton's defense was simply average. Not bad. Not good. Just... average.
If you want to break it down to '...just watch the games' ...
Arizona's D was great last year. I watched more games than I missed.
I assume based on your comments that you watched them a lot ... what did you miss?
Man, the lack of QB"s *KILLED* that offense ... and that D kept plugging away,
If Horton brings that D here ... I'll take it.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,728
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,728 |
I watched most of the Seattle vs. Arizona game that was 58-0.
I think the defense had an off day that day.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 742
All Pro
|
|
All Pro
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 742 |
J/C
Don't discount yards allowed and yards-per-play when evaluating a defense. Forcing a punt at the 15 and forcing a punt at midfield are huge swings in field position.. Both show up the same in points allowed, but one helps your offense and the other pins it back. Same with turnovers. Field position is important.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,465
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,465 |
If the Browns cant get Millner and take an OLB with the 1st pick, and Denver likes Sheard (to replace Dumervill) over any DE in the draft, then I see Denver as a possible trade.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,547
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,547 |
Denver was looking at Freeney and Abraham .... but I didn't see a signing there. They may be waiting to see what happens in the draft.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 857
All Pro
|
|
All Pro
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 857 |
nobody when he goes 1-6 versus playoff teams we will welcome back dick
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 12,635
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 12,635 |
I really thought Denver was going to pull the trigger on Abraham... still a little shocked they didn't.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,547
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,547 |
They are probably waiting to see what happens in the draft at this point,
There's not a long line beating a path to the door of either player. I suspect that their market may improve if teams cannot find a pass rusher in the draft.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 857
All Pro
|
|
All Pro
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 857 |
1-6 versus playoff teams last year that stat doesnt scare the crap out of you?:
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 81
Rookie
|
|
Rookie
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 81 |
i think its called smokescreen. gives us a bvetter chance to get milliner.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 857
All Pro
|
|
All Pro
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 857 |
excellent post he was 1-6 versus playoff team and gave up a average of 30 plus points.
his run defenses were horrific versus even the weakest of lines.His team ranked 28th in the league versus the run,.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499 |
Are you okay? You keep repeating yourself, but you really aren't saying anything. 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 15,341
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 15,341 |
Quote:
Are you okay? You keep repeating yourself, but you really aren't saying anything.
John 3:16 Jesus said "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 857
All Pro
|
|
All Pro
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 857 |
how about I repeat your biggest insight keep mangini
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499 |
Insight?  Oh, and you just did. No worries, man. I just read another thread that you ruined. I was worried about you for real, but I got you now. Later.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 857
All Pro
|
|
All Pro
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 857 |
thank you good day no joke
|
|
|
DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Who you gonna trade?
|
|
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/Heldawg/rgiii2.jpg)