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Shotty66 responded to Deepsouthdawg (who was responding to Slick):


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Slick...you don't watch much SEC do ya. Don't get hung up on the numbers. Watch each of them. Jones can't tote Mingo's jock!!!! Study a little bit before you act as if its gospel.



"This! And where did all these poster's with so much negativity come from? "


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Of late, they've come from the "new old Dawgtalk" forum.... to join the "old [new] Dawgtalkers" forums. (hehehe)

But mostly, fans rockin' the "negvibe" have been around forever.

I got my gig in '87, and met a Cleve native in the orch. A violist. Noah. We played in a string quartet together. One day at a rehearsal break, we got to talking Browns. He said: "My Dad is the quintessential Browns fan. He hates Art Modell, the Front Office, every draft they ever make, and almost all the players."

(Mind you, this was the time of Kosar, Mack/Byner, Golic, Minnifield/Dixon, Matthews, Slaughter/Langhorn, Mike Johnson, Brian Brennan, Ozzie Newsome....)

I was just a casual Browns fan at the time, and couldn't understand such a mindset. After all, Brownies were at/near the top of the league, I HAD to ask Noah: "So... who does your dad actually like?"

[Noah]: He likes Paul Brown , Otto Graham, Jim Brown.... and Lou Groza."

We laughed our azzes off.... and went back to the rehearsal. Nothing more needed be said after that.

It wasn't until I joined the CyberBrowns community that I finally got it: It's family.... And in every family, there's that old coot in the corner, bitching about how his beloved Grandkids refuse to respect the blades of grass in his front lawn.... at the annual Family Picnic.

Browns fans have been so enamoured of their "storied past," that it's been an actual impediment to our future progress. They've been so vocal and aggressive in their zeal, they've actually forced admin to acquiesce to their demands in matters as important as FO personnel. (Do we all remember the Savage/Collins debacle?)

As much as I wanted to see the H3 project move forward, I knew that wasn't possible as soon as I saw Junior's sale to Haslam was a done deal. I wasn't sold on Banner, and REALLY hated the Lombardi assignment, but I have to say all that animus has been tempered by the "ChudNorvHort" Monster that's been assembled under their watch. For all my misgivings, there seems to be a balance that we've never before had- between "bean counters" and "true football men." That balance MAY prove useful to us, going forward.

_______________________________


As with the previous regime, I see a correlation that links draft picks with team philosophy. The new coaches want to attack. The FO is charged with the responsibility of loading the roster toward that end. They seem to be "walking it like they're talking it," up to this point. I'm not a draft/stats/roster guru, so I'm OK with it, as I was with the last regime's plan. As long as I can see what they're trying to do, I can live with the choices they make.

Barkevious Mingo fits the "attacking" style that's been described since Day One, so I'm willing to go with it. I see him initially as a situational rotation player, until he gets his feet wet, but if he has upside, I also see an expanded role, down the road.

I'm not as concerned with his body type as other posters here: my career as a musician has shown me time and again that body type is less important than technique. On one hand, My Krew boasts Lynn Harrell: Male. 6'4" 260.... and Alisa Weilerstein: Female. 5'2" 125. The cello is the same size. The approach to technique is different (obviously).... but the results are of similarly high caliber. In other words, there are more than one way to effectively skin a cat.

That being said, kid is about as raw as a freshly pulled root vegetable in late Spring. He's instinctual with leverage, but has terrible handwork. He can shed blocks with speed on pass rushes, but when he's asked to 'man up' in a contain coverage, he often gets beat... and even taken off his spot/off his feet. I attribute this to being used in a scheme that he was ill-suited for.

Nonetheless, all his deficiencies are teachable.... especially considering the role he'll play in a Ray Horton defense. If his first-year role is to use that first-step burst of his to get pressure on the QB (and he's used smartly), he might have a chance to post DROTY stats. If they want him to learn how to drop into protection as a NFL OLB, that curve will take a bit longer, and his natural gifts won't have quite as much of an impact in Year One.

Either way, I'm totally cool with this pick.

If he's smart and coachable, I see his role expanding over the years. If it turns out he's a "specialist only"- type, there's still room for him on the roster, going forward.

Bottom line: Not much downside to this pick.

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Below is a list of the 2013 Pro Bowl OLBs....They average out in size at 6'3 253 pounds....Mingo currently is listed as 6'4 241 pounds....So on size alone I think Mingo is fine....He may need to add 10-15 pound , which should come as he works to increase his strength due to the increased physicality of the NFL....Everything Else depends on his football instinct .



OLB Von Miller, Broncos
OLB Tamba Hali, Chiefs
OLB Robert Mathis, Colts

OLB Aldon Smith, 49ers
OLB DeMarcus Ware, Cowboys
OLB Clay Matthews, Packers


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the 241 is his combine weight.
He put 20 pounds on after the season to get to that.
Just wanted to clarify

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He stated in his press conference that he is 237


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How big is James Harrison?


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Ok....Thanks....If he has already added 20 pounds , I just hope he can add 10-15 more hold the weight and not lose too much speed.


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In answer to the question...Harrison is listed at 240. Where this idea comes that an OLB has to be 260 plus is beyond me. The greatest outside linebacker to ever play was listed at 6'3 237. Lawrence Taylor. Think he wasn't big enough?
Carl Banks played opposite him on the strong side. He was listed at 6'4" and 235.
Before we go adding pounds why not see what he can do in our system as is? Sure, get him in the gym for strength training. If he gains five pounds of muscle that's great.

Last edited by Spiritbro77; 04/27/13 04:15 AM.

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Quote:

the 241 is his combine weight.
He put 20 pounds on after the season to get to that.
Just wanted to clarify




More like ten. He played at 230. Point is, he can carry the extra weight, and he'll put it on as he adds muscle. Especially in the lower body.


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sorry to be like this but it is rough after 25 years of bad or know football .
while I may make certain exceptions to these draft picks I love the direction.

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Great presser:

Mingo Presser


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I think that the thing about Mingo isn't that he has to get bigger for the scheme ...... but that he's almost small in some regards. He's not this "jacked" professional athlete. (although that may have something to do with how long his arms are as well) Now I have read that he has added about 10-15# since the end of the season, and he is now at roughly 240 ...... and that could be a good weight for him, if it improves his overall body composition.

I read that he's going to wear "The Assassin's" old number ...... 51. (For those who remember Eddie Johnson) Hopefully he brings that same kind of attitude to the field.


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He says he's at 237. He'll get bigger, it's a non-issue at this point.


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Quote:

I think that the thing about Mingo isn't that he has to get bigger for the scheme ...... but that he's almost small in some regards. He's not this "jacked" professional athlete. (although that may have something to do with how long his arms are as well) Now I have read that he has added about 10-15# since the end of the season, and he is now at roughly 240 ...... and that could be a good weight for him, if it improves his overall body composition.

I read that he's going to wear "The Assassin's" old number ...... 51. (For those who remember Eddie Johnson) Hopefully he brings that same kind of attitude to the field.




Hell yes I remember Johnson! Both of them! My all time favorite Browns defense.
Banks, Johnson, Johnson, and Matthews. Eddie was said to be too small to play inside, but he played with a FIRE in his heart. He LOVED to hit people. I pray some of our linebackers start feeling that way. I'm not holding my breath though....


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Quote:

I read that he's going to wear "The Assassin's" old number ...... 51. (For those who remember Eddie Johnson) Hopefully he brings that same kind of attitude to the field.






Now there's a guy that could put his game face on! Loved him. RIP Eddie.


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Quote:

In answer to the question...Harrison is listed at 240. Where this idea comes that an OLB has to be 260 plus is beyond me. The greatest outside linebacker to ever play was listed at 6'3 237. Lawrence Taylor. Think he wasn't big enough?
Carl Banks played opposite him on the strong side. He was listed at 6'4" and 235.
Before we go adding pounds why not see what he can do in our system as is? Sure, get him in the gym for strength training. If he gains five pounds of muscle that's great.




I'm not sure of what I"m about to say,, But if a guy is fast at 240, wouldn't he slow down at 260?

Doesn't this D we are installing rely on speed and instincts?

I'm wondering, since some of the best to ever play the game were around Mingos size, why worry about changing him?


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I am calling him Barkviciously Mingo.


Lets hope it doesn't become Allbarknobite Mingo.


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j/c

Here's why I'm not concerned about Barkvicisiously (I like that!) adding weight...

Brad Roll, Browns Strength and Conditioning Coach
A native of Houston, Roll played center at Blinn (Texas) Junior College and Stephen F. Austin State. He was a team captain during his final two seasons at Stephen F. Austin, earning both bachelor’s and master’s degrees in education while attending. He also studied at the Moscow (Russia) Sports Institute during the summers of 1985 and 1986, as well as with the German Olympic weightlifting coaching and training staff in Leipzig (Germany) in 1987. From 1998-2011, he served on the executive committee of the NFL Coaches Association. In 2003, Roll was inducted into the professional category of the USA Strength and Conditioning Coaches Hall of Fame. In 2005, he was inducted into Stephen F. Austin State Ring of Honor.

Have you ever seen an athlete (the sport doesn't matter) of slight build or less than customary size display exceptional strength? A lot of the Russian and German athletic training techniques (not with a syringe) can produce these types of results. If any of you are at all familiar with Pavel Tsatsouline then you have some idea what I'm talking about.

Some article I read on the PD site just before the first minicamp talked about how Roll intended to develop player specific/position specific routines. Just the way he talked about his approach makes me think he'll improve Mingo's strength without getting him excessively bulked up.

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Quote:

(not with a syringe)




Anybody else thinking the same thing
They actually test for this in the NFL. Russia and Germany in the 1980's -- yeah, not so much......

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""As with the previous regime, I see a correlation that links draft picks with team philosophy. The new coaches want to attack. The FO is charged with the responsibility of loading the roster toward that end. They seem to be "walking it like they're talking it," up to this point. I'm not a draft/stats/roster guru, so I'm OK with it, as I was with the last regime's plan. As long as I can see what they're trying to do, I can live with the choices they make.""

+1


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Quote:

Before we go adding pounds why not see what he can do in our system as is? Sure, get him in the gym for strength training. If he gains five pounds of muscle that's great.




I agree with this. I think Horton is the wildcard in the whole defensive scheme. People seem to think they are going to see Mingo lining up in the same spot, outside the OT, every play. But Horton's defense attacks asymmetrically - Mingo might be coming from anywhere on the field. In his highlight film, we saw him lined up inside, on the C-G gap, and his quickness let him slice through before the big fatties could even react. IMO, this pick gives Horton one of the weapons he needs to run his D the way its designed to be run.

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Quote:

Just the way he talked about his approach makes me think he'll improve Mingo's strength without getting him excessively bulked up.





I hope so. In the past I think some of the goofball strength coaces we had got guys so bulked up their muscles were as tight as piano strings and why we seem to have had a rash of blown biceps, pecs, etc.

Strength is great, but if the players are so tight they can't move with a full range of mobility, something is going to give.....like one of their bulked up muscles.

A big, torn bicep isn't very strong. It's just big and torn.


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jc

I am thinking Mingo can improve his cardio and etc and throw on 15-20lbs without losing any speed. We'll see what his weight comes in during preseason. I am still excited about Mingo. I believe him and Kruger are going to be a collapsing force on the edges of our defense. Then you add Winn, Huges, Taylor, Bryant, Rubin and company pushing the middle, WOW. Defense is looking SCARY!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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JC

I'm not worried about him slowing down at all, Alot of times adding athletic weight (muscle) isn't as detrimental as some guy on the street adding 20 lbs because he discovered golden corral. I'm not a NFL player by any stretch, lol but I am athletic and I play in full contact football leagues in summer/fall and I play in bball leagues in winter, during winter I usually play at 6'1 215, and i usually bulk up for football to about 235 because I play DE and LT/TE. Everyone tells me that my explosion off the ball is very quick and I have never been caught from behind, even though i feel slower..lol. Bottom line is with conditioning and the right focused training..adding weight doesn't mean you slow down. The only reason I see Mingo needing to go up from 240 is if his body is having a hard time aborbing hits from oline. If you watch his highlights, he doesn't go directly at oline much, he has an incredible first step to the outside and very very good bend to get around the corner, he has the spin move and he stunts very well. I think Mingo is going to be just fine.


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Quote:

Quote:

Before we go adding pounds why not see what he can do in our system as is? Sure, get him in the gym for strength training. If he gains five pounds of muscle that's great.




I agree with this. I think Horton is the wildcard in the whole defensive scheme. People seem to think they are going to see Mingo lining up in the same spot, outside the OT, every play. But Horton's defense attacks asymmetrically - Mingo might be coming from anywhere on the field. In his highlight film, we saw him lined up inside, on the C-G gap, and his quickness let him slice through before the big fatties could even react. IMO, this pick gives Horton one of the weapons he needs to run his D the way its designed to be run.




Well, one of the things Mingo has to do is get a little stronger. Once he gets into an NFL training program, he's going to add some muscle and put on some pounds . I doubt they want him to put on more than 10 pounds, however.


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If it's all muscle, it shouldn't slow him down at all.


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Quote:

That being said, kid is about as raw as a freshly pulled root vegetable in late Spring. He's instinctual with leverage, but has terrible handwork. He can shed blocks with speed on pass rushes, but when he's asked to 'man up' in a contain coverage, he often gets beat... and even taken off his spot/off his feet.




Now to take a cue from the media...I'm going to take a small part of one man's quote, use it, and utterly warp the meaning of an entire statement.

I'm using that one tiny piece of Clem's post to express why I'm not very high on the selection of Mingo. My apologies to the good dudes that asked me to expand on why I gave a to the pick but didn't say anything beyond that. I've been doing 70-hour work weeks due to being short-staffed and horribly mis-managed by a new GM that doesn't know which direction the sun comes up every morning, so instead of firing off from the hip I just waited until I was more level-headed before talking, hehe.

My own personal philosophy has always been to take known quantities very high in the draft, and save the projects for later. It's my singular opinion that Mingo is one Helluva a project. Yes, he projects far more to OLB than DE, so at least he's being moved to the correct position, as opposed to trying to move Ansah, Moore, or Werner out there. What I don't like can be summed up in a way that has already been expressed by other people, which is that he is dangerously close to being in the Kam Wimbley mode: One-trick pony.

I'm not going to sit here and list all the things that he needs to work on. That's all out in the open now. I simply don't dig taking a guy with so many question marks when he's lacking in so many areas. He's pure upside and zero production, which is the opposite of what I wanted.

The Browns have gambled. Time will tell if it pays off. I'm not optimistic, but pray I'm wrong.


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Quote:

If it's all muscle, it shouldn't slow him down at all.






To a degree. If he gains 25 lbs, he is going to slow down, muscle or not.


Plus, just gaining muscle isn't healthy.


It may look good, but God put us here with some fat on our bodies for a reason. If you or others don't believe in God, nature put fat on our bodies for a reason.


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There seems to be a common belief that muscle mass is a goal worth pursuing for its own sake, that only applies if the sport is bodybuilding. Functional strength, that can be applied athletically when competing against an opponent is what really matters. If a 240 lb Linebacker has strength on par with a 300 lb OL and a speed, quickness and agility advantage to go with it, I'm taking the linebacker.

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That is my thinking.


It's not like Mingo is a small man.


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Quote:

"The Assassin's"



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Yo. 'Peen (and others on this board)"

Since I'm known around here for long-winded posts, I thought I'd take a chance at the type of shorthand that seems to rule the day around here. It would seem that I was misunderstood, without my usual 5+ paragraphs.

In other posts,Mingo's height/weight stats have been compared to those of James Harrison (Steelers) and Jayson Taylor (dolphins). I was hoping that those inferences (from previous DT'ers threads) were a given when I posted what I did.

(Perhaps more is now expected of me, since I've gained the reputation as a "wordy poster.")

I hoped that those previous posts were enough to frame my POV in this post.

Agreed: Mingo isn't a "small man." He's a 'long man.'

...And that might translate to an "effective man," if he's used in accordance to his skill set.

His 6'4"/240 looks more like 6'5"/205 on his frame... and that is what's so deceptive about him. What we see is much less than what we get, yo.

I satill expect the NFL training regimen to add "heft" to his persona (which is still much different from "weight')... and give him what he might be lacking as a rook. It's why I stuck to the 10 lb framework in my post.

25 lb would definitely change his playing dynamic. 10-15 wouldn't.

No probs with this prospect, so far.

Boom or bust, he'll be one of the more interesting 'new stories' that we have to watch.

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Haven't really addressed Mingo yet.

And my thought is this:

How dumb is Les Miles and the rest of the LSU staff that make tons of money coaching that probably couldn't find other jobs that make as much as they make currently?

I ask this for one reason.

If you believe that they would play a top-6 in the draft NFL talent as a contain option on the strongside...then do you believe they want to continue making millions of dollars.

This does not make sense to me.

If I had a physical freak who was going to blow up the nfl I might put in packages that highlight him. I might have him playing on the QB's blindside. And I might use him in a way that doesn't say...."keep this QB in the pocket therefore you will only have 4.5 sacks this year."

I don't know what to think about this pick....I just wanted to counterbalance the "this guy is going to be anything else but a complete project in 2013."


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Quote:

If you believe that they would play a top-6 in the draft NFL talent as a contain option on the strongside...then do you believe they want to continue making millions of dollars.




Quote:


If I had a physical freak who was going to blow up the nfl I might put in packages that highlight him. I might have him playing on the QB's blindside. And I might use him in a way that doesn't say...."keep this QB in the pocket therefore you will only have 4.5 sacks this year."




I don't know that I quite understand this logic.

The goal of game planning isn't to maximize the value of any given player's skill set. It's to maximize the value of the roster as a whole.

For example - maybe it wasn't the best idea to use Shaun Rogers as a space eater like we did - he was much more effective as a rusher. But if we attempted to utilize his skills to his maximum abilities, it wouldn't do our scheme very well on the whole.

And in college it becomes even more flexible - as if you have a man among boys (which almost all top 10 picks are in college), you don't need to maximize their potential to succeed - you can have them satisfactorily perform any number of duties, even if it isn't their direct skill set. They're men amongst boys - they can handle the task and be pretty good at it (even if it's not a total utilization of their skill sets).

With that said, I'm very wary of the Mingo pick.

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I just have to look at the guys who hit the NFL and blow it up after a so-so college career. (stat wise)

Example: JJ Watt. I mention him because I was looking at some past draft "instant grades", and the pick of Watt was panned as a waste. He only had 11.5 sacks in his 2 year college career. He didn't play a position of high value. (3-4 DE) Plus, the Texans already had Marion Williams. What was the point in drafting Watt?

Von Miller had a long college career, but his best year was his junior year. Why did he drop from 17 sacks as a junior to 10.5 sacks as a senior? Why would the Broncos take him when they had a pressing need at CB?

Aldon Smith had 14.5 sacks in college, and his best year was also his junior year. What could he possibly do in the NFL? Well, 2 years and 33.5 sacks in, what indeed?

Of these 3, none showed the promise, especially in their senior years, of what they became almost immediately in the NFL. (it took Watt a year to blow up)

I do think that part of the issue is that the college game still features the run, especially the QB running, more than great QB play. Most college QBs option run. If a guy plays straight rush, the QB will run where he vacated, and be gone. Most NFL QBs do not run to the same degree. Also, many college QBs are physically and talent limited, and they aren't going to rear back and drop passes 40 yards down the field. They might occasionally, but most of them will do the short stuff.

Look at the SEC. Who are the great QBs that their teams rely upon to win games?

Did Jeff Driskel at Florida put the fear of God into anyone last year?

Anyone at Kentucky? At Missouri? Anyone at South Carolina that made opponents cringe with fear at the QB spot? (even though they did have decent talent there)

Vanderbilt?

Even "name" guys like Tyler Wilson weren't overwhelming as passers. Respectable, perhaps, but not fearsome.

Was there anyone on Auburn's roster to worry about throwing the ball? At Ole Miss? Mississippi State?

Manziel at A&M, McCarron at Bama, Bray at Tennessee, and the kid from Georgia were probably the closest to scary passers. That means that most games were probably more about contain than rush.

JMHO.


Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.

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His 6'4"/240 looks more like 6'5"/205 on his frame... and that is what's so deceptive about him. What we see is much less than what we get, yo.





That's part of the issue with Mingo.

I believe there's a misconception that he's going to be able to add significant weight because he's "lean." When looking at his frame, he doesn't have the kind if wide build conducive to adding 15-pounds of muscle.

Mingo is never going to be a good run-stopper. He's at the bottom of the draft class in that aspect. Having said that, he's going to get paid to come at the QB, not be a 4-3 DE and hold the point. That's where the issues with his lack of natural and instinctual rush ability comes into play.

I have a great fear that Mingo is going to be the new version of Kam Wimbley...an edge-rusher who lacks the ability to develop dynamic moves and is questionable (at best) against the run.

That's a helluva gamble to make with the 6th pick in the draft.


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His 6'4"/240 looks more like 6'5"/205 on his frame... and that is what's so deceptive about him. What we see is much less than what we get, yo.





That's part of the issue with Mingo.

I believe there's a misconception that he's going to be able to add significant weight because he's "lean." When looking at his frame, he doesn't have the kind if wide build conducive to adding 15-pounds of muscle.

Mingo is never going to be a good run-stopper. He's at the bottom of the draft class in that aspect. Having said that, he's going to get paid to come at the QB, not be a 4-3 DE and hold the point. That's where the issues with his lack of natural and instinctual rush ability comes into play.

I have a great fear that Mingo is going to be the new version of Kam Wimbley...an edge-rusher who lacks the ability to develop dynamic moves and is questionable (at best) against the run.

That's a helluva gamble to make with the 6th pick in the draft.





Wimbley was my first mental comparison for Mingo.
Alex Hall (now with the Winnipeg Blue Bombers) was my second.

Athletic freaks, but not enough natural football player in them to make full use of all of that athletic talent.


Browns is the Browns

... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.

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Mingo is a lot faster than Wimbley.

I do agree that I don't think he's going to add some 20 pounds like it's nothing. He doesn't have a huge frame that looks like it's going to fill out, not the giant wide shoulders that you saw in other freak athletes like Dwight Howard and Lebron. You knew both of them would have no problem adding weight and muscle.

As far as Mingo goes, could he have come off any better in these interviews? You have to love this kid. Plays with a mean streak on the field, sounds like the nicest guy you've ever met off the field.

I just love that it really seems like they did their homework, and got their guy.

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I think that Mingo leaves Wimbley in the dust off the snap. I also think that he is actually ahead of where Wimbley was against the run. He's not a finished product, by any stretch, but he is better than Wimbley was coming out of school.

I also love the way that Mingo explodes through the QB on sacks, He gets hold of a QB, that QB is going to know Mingo got him.

Mingo may not be able to add a lot of weight, but I think that he can add a small amount. (and already has, from reports) One other thing about Mingo that I like is that he seems to be very flexible. He can take down the QB, even if he has gone by him. I also watched him bull rush DJ Fluker in a clip, and shove him 5 yards back. He had Fluker knocked completely off balance, and was muscling him back. Impressive stuff.

I think that we're going to like Mingo, and I think that Horton will have quite a few ideas as far as how to use him. Personally, I hope that we slide Kruger down to DE on passing downs, and bring Mingo in to rush off the edge, with Sheard coming off the other side. See who gets to the QB first.


Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.

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Mingo is a lot faster than Wimbley.




I wouldn't go that far, man. Mingo is ever-so-slightly faster than Wimbley.

I looked up their combine results.

Mingo ran a 4.58
Wimbley ran a 4.61

Mingo's 3-cone was a 6.84
Wimbley's was a 6.98

Mingo's 20-yard shuttle was a 4.39
Wimbley's was a 4.48

Truly, though, it's not about the hundreths of a second difference in those times that matter, it's their natural rush moves, hand usage, leverage, and instincts that matter.

I'm forever going to be linked to Jarvis Jones around here because of how heavily I pushed for him, much in the same way I stay linked to Aaron Rodgers because of how I pimped him. Jarvis Jones doesn't have the measurables that Mingo has, but Mingo doesn't display the natural rush ability that Jones does.

It isn't about faster with these edge-rushers in the 3-4. Mingo will have to develop his rush abilities beyond just quickness or he's going to bust.


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but Mingo doesn't display the natural rush ability that Jones does.






How do you know, Mingo played in LSU's conservative Defense, while Jones played in more of an attack D @ UGA, I too wanted Jones but I think Mingo has much more upside ... JMHO


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DawgTalkers.net Forums The Archives 2013 NFL Season NFL Draft (2013) "Son Of Barkevious Mingo" [Mingo Draft, part deux]

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