Shotty66 responded to Deepsouthdawg (who was responding to Slick):
Quote:
Slick...you don't watch much SEC do ya. Don't get hung up on the numbers. Watch each of them. Jones can't tote Mingo's jock!!!! Study a little bit before you act as if its gospel.
"This! And where did all these poster's with so much negativity come from? "
Of late, they've come from the "new old Dawgtalk" forum.... to join the "old [new] Dawgtalkers" forums. (hehehe)
But mostly, fans rockin' the "negvibe" have been around forever.
I got my gig in '87, and met a Cleve native in the orch. A violist. Noah. We played in a string quartet together. One day at a rehearsal break, we got to talking Browns. He said: "My Dad is the quintessential Browns fan. He hates Art Modell, the Front Office, every draft they ever make, and almost all the players."
(Mind you, this was the time of Kosar, Mack/Byner, Golic, Minnifield/Dixon, Matthews, Slaughter/Langhorn, Mike Johnson, Brian Brennan, Ozzie Newsome....)
I was just a casual Browns fan at the time, and couldn't understand such a mindset. After all, Brownies were at/near the top of the league, I HAD to ask Noah: "So... who does your dad actually like?"
[Noah]: He likes Paul Brown , Otto Graham, Jim Brown.... and Lou Groza."
We laughed our azzes off.... and went back to the rehearsal. Nothing more needed be said after that.
It wasn't until I joined the CyberBrowns community that I finally got it: It's family.... And in every family, there's that old coot in the corner, bitching about how his beloved Grandkids refuse to respect the blades of grass in his front lawn.... at the annual Family Picnic.
Browns fans have been so enamoured of their "storied past," that it's been an actual impediment to our future progress. They've been so vocal and aggressive in their zeal, they've actually forced admin to acquiesce to their demands in matters as important as FO personnel. (Do we all remember the Savage/Collins debacle?)
As much as I wanted to see the H3 project move forward, I knew that wasn't possible as soon as I saw Junior's sale to Haslam was a done deal. I wasn't sold on Banner, and REALLY hated the Lombardi assignment, but I have to say all that animus has been tempered by the "ChudNorvHort" Monster that's been assembled under their watch. For all my misgivings, there seems to be a balance that we've never before had- between "bean counters" and "true football men." That balance MAY prove useful to us, going forward.
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As with the previous regime, I see a correlation that links draft picks with team philosophy. The new coaches want to attack. The FO is charged with the responsibility of loading the roster toward that end. They seem to be "walking it like they're talking it," up to this point. I'm not a draft/stats/roster guru, so I'm OK with it, as I was with the last regime's plan. As long as I can see what they're trying to do, I can live with the choices they make.
Barkevious Mingo fits the "attacking" style that's been described since Day One, so I'm willing to go with it. I see him initially as a situational rotation player, until he gets his feet wet, but if he has upside, I also see an expanded role, down the road.
I'm not as concerned with his body type as other posters here: my career as a musician has shown me time and again that body type is less important than technique. On one hand, My Krew boasts Lynn Harrell: Male. 6'4" 260.... and Alisa Weilerstein: Female. 5'2" 125. The cello is the same size. The approach to technique is different (obviously).... but the results are of similarly high caliber. In other words, there are more than one way to effectively skin a cat.
That being said, kid is about as raw as a freshly pulled root vegetable in late Spring. He's instinctual with leverage, but has terrible handwork. He can shed blocks with speed on pass rushes, but when he's asked to 'man up' in a contain coverage, he often gets beat... and even taken off his spot/off his feet. I attribute this to being used in a scheme that he was ill-suited for.
Nonetheless, all his deficiencies are teachable.... especially considering the role he'll play in a Ray Horton defense. If his first-year role is to use that first-step burst of his to get pressure on the QB (and he's used smartly), he might have a chance to post DROTY stats. If they want him to learn how to drop into protection as a NFL OLB, that curve will take a bit longer, and his natural gifts won't have quite as much of an impact in Year One.
Either way, I'm totally cool with this pick.
If he's smart and coachable, I see his role expanding over the years. If it turns out he's a "specialist only"- type, there's still room for him on the roster, going forward.
Below is a list of the 2013 Pro Bowl OLBs....They average out in size at 6'3 253 pounds....Mingo currently is listed as 6'4 241 pounds....So on size alone I think Mingo is fine....He may need to add 10-15 pound , which should come as he works to increase his strength due to the increased physicality of the NFL....Everything Else depends on his football instinct .
OLB Von Miller, Broncos OLB Tamba Hali, Chiefs OLB Robert Mathis, Colts
In answer to the question...Harrison is listed at 240. Where this idea comes that an OLB has to be 260 plus is beyond me. The greatest outside linebacker to ever play was listed at 6'3 237. Lawrence Taylor. Think he wasn't big enough? Carl Banks played opposite him on the strong side. He was listed at 6'4" and 235. Before we go adding pounds why not see what he can do in our system as is? Sure, get him in the gym for strength training. If he gains five pounds of muscle that's great.
sorry to be like this but it is rough after 25 years of bad or know football . while I may make certain exceptions to these draft picks I love the direction.
I think that the thing about Mingo isn't that he has to get bigger for the scheme ...... but that he's almost small in some regards. He's not this "jacked" professional athlete. (although that may have something to do with how long his arms are as well) Now I have read that he has added about 10-15# since the end of the season, and he is now at roughly 240 ...... and that could be a good weight for him, if it improves his overall body composition.
I read that he's going to wear "The Assassin's" old number ...... 51. (For those who remember Eddie Johnson) Hopefully he brings that same kind of attitude to the field.
Quote: I think that the thing about Mingo isn't that he has to get bigger for the scheme ...... but that he's almost small in some regards. He's not this "jacked" professional athlete. (although that may have something to do with how long his arms are as well) Now I have read that he has added about 10-15# since the end of the season, and he is now at roughly 240 ...... and that could be a good weight for him, if it improves his overall body composition.
I read that he's going to wear "The Assassin's" old number ...... 51. (For those who remember Eddie Johnson) Hopefully he brings that same kind of attitude to the field.
Hell yes I remember Johnson! Both of them! My all time favorite Browns defense. Banks, Johnson, Johnson, and Matthews. Eddie was said to be too small to play inside, but he played with a FIRE in his heart. He LOVED to hit people. I pray some of our linebackers start feeling that way. I'm not holding my breath though....
Quote: I read that he's going to wear "The Assassin's" old number ...... 51. (For those who remember Eddie Johnson) Hopefully he brings that same kind of attitude to the field.
Now there's a guy that could put his game face on! Loved him. RIP Eddie.
Quote: In answer to the question...Harrison is listed at 240. Where this idea comes that an OLB has to be 260 plus is beyond me. The greatest outside linebacker to ever play was listed at 6'3 237. Lawrence Taylor. Think he wasn't big enough? Carl Banks played opposite him on the strong side. He was listed at 6'4" and 235. Before we go adding pounds why not see what he can do in our system as is? Sure, get him in the gym for strength training. If he gains five pounds of muscle that's great.
I'm not sure of what I"m about to say,, But if a guy is fast at 240, wouldn't he slow down at 260?
Doesn't this D we are installing rely on speed and instincts?
I'm wondering, since some of the best to ever play the game were around Mingos size, why worry about changing him?
Here's why I'm not concerned about Barkvicisiously (I like that!) adding weight...
Brad Roll, Browns Strength and Conditioning Coach A native of Houston, Roll played center at Blinn (Texas) Junior College and Stephen F. Austin State. He was a team captain during his final two seasons at Stephen F. Austin, earning both bachelor’s and master’s degrees in education while attending. He also studied at the Moscow (Russia) Sports Institute during the summers of 1985 and 1986, as well as with the German Olympic weightlifting coaching and training staff in Leipzig (Germany) in 1987. From 1998-2011, he served on the executive committee of the NFL Coaches Association. In 2003, Roll was inducted into the professional category of the USA Strength and Conditioning Coaches Hall of Fame. In 2005, he was inducted into Stephen F. Austin State Ring of Honor.
Have you ever seen an athlete (the sport doesn't matter) of slight build or less than customary size display exceptional strength? A lot of the Russian and German athletic training techniques (not with a syringe) can produce these types of results. If any of you are at all familiar with Pavel Tsatsouline then you have some idea what I'm talking about.
Some article I read on the PD site just before the first minicamp talked about how Roll intended to develop player specific/position specific routines. Just the way he talked about his approach makes me think he'll improve Mingo's strength without getting him excessively bulked up.
""As with the previous regime, I see a correlation that links draft picks with team philosophy. The new coaches want to attack. The FO is charged with the responsibility of loading the roster toward that end. They seem to be "walking it like they're talking it," up to this point. I'm not a draft/stats/roster guru, so I'm OK with it, as I was with the last regime's plan. As long as I can see what they're trying to do, I can live with the choices they make.""
Quote: Before we go adding pounds why not see what he can do in our system as is? Sure, get him in the gym for strength training. If he gains five pounds of muscle that's great.
I agree with this. I think Horton is the wildcard in the whole defensive scheme. People seem to think they are going to see Mingo lining up in the same spot, outside the OT, every play. But Horton's defense attacks asymmetrically - Mingo might be coming from anywhere on the field. In his highlight film, we saw him lined up inside, on the C-G gap, and his quickness let him slice through before the big fatties could even react. IMO, this pick gives Horton one of the weapons he needs to run his D the way its designed to be run.
Quote: Just the way he talked about his approach makes me think he'll improve Mingo's strength without getting him excessively bulked up.
I hope so. In the past I think some of the goofball strength coaces we had got guys so bulked up their muscles were as tight as piano strings and why we seem to have had a rash of blown biceps, pecs, etc.
Strength is great, but if the players are so tight they can't move with a full range of mobility, something is going to give.....like one of their bulked up muscles.
A big, torn bicep isn't very strong. It's just big and torn.
I am thinking Mingo can improve his cardio and etc and throw on 15-20lbs without losing any speed. We'll see what his weight comes in during preseason. I am still excited about Mingo. I believe him and Kruger are going to be a collapsing force on the edges of our defense. Then you add Winn, Huges, Taylor, Bryant, Rubin and company pushing the middle, WOW. Defense is looking SCARY!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm not worried about him slowing down at all, Alot of times adding athletic weight (muscle) isn't as detrimental as some guy on the street adding 20 lbs because he discovered golden corral. I'm not a NFL player by any stretch, lol but I am athletic and I play in full contact football leagues in summer/fall and I play in bball leagues in winter, during winter I usually play at 6'1 215, and i usually bulk up for football to about 235 because I play DE and LT/TE. Everyone tells me that my explosion off the ball is very quick and I have never been caught from behind, even though i feel slower..lol. Bottom line is with conditioning and the right focused training..adding weight doesn't mean you slow down. The only reason I see Mingo needing to go up from 240 is if his body is having a hard time aborbing hits from oline. If you watch his highlights, he doesn't go directly at oline much, he has an incredible first step to the outside and very very good bend to get around the corner, he has the spin move and he stunts very well. I think Mingo is going to be just fine.
Quote: Before we go adding pounds why not see what he can do in our system as is? Sure, get him in the gym for strength training. If he gains five pounds of muscle that's great.
I agree with this. I think Horton is the wildcard in the whole defensive scheme. People seem to think they are going to see Mingo lining up in the same spot, outside the OT, every play. But Horton's defense attacks asymmetrically - Mingo might be coming from anywhere on the field. In his highlight film, we saw him lined up inside, on the C-G gap, and his quickness let him slice through before the big fatties could even react. IMO, this pick gives Horton one of the weapons he needs to run his D the way its designed to be run.
Well, one of the things Mingo has to do is get a little stronger. Once he gets into an NFL training program, he's going to add some muscle and put on some pounds . I doubt they want him to put on more than 10 pounds, however.
Quote: That being said, kid is about as raw as a freshly pulled root vegetable in late Spring. He's instinctual with leverage, but has terrible handwork. He can shed blocks with speed on pass rushes, but when he's asked to 'man up' in a contain coverage, he often gets beat... and even taken off his spot/off his feet.
Now to take a cue from the media...I'm going to take a small part of one man's quote, use it, and utterly warp the meaning of an entire statement.
I'm using that one tiny piece of Clem's post to express why I'm not very high on the selection of Mingo. My apologies to the good dudes that asked me to expand on why I gave a to the pick but didn't say anything beyond that. I've been doing 70-hour work weeks due to being short-staffed and horribly mis-managed by a new GM that doesn't know which direction the sun comes up every morning, so instead of firing off from the hip I just waited until I was more level-headed before talking, hehe.
My own personal philosophy has always been to take known quantities very high in the draft, and save the projects for later. It's my singular opinion that Mingo is one Helluva a project. Yes, he projects far more to OLB than DE, so at least he's being moved to the correct position, as opposed to trying to move Ansah, Moore, or Werner out there. What I don't like can be summed up in a way that has already been expressed by other people, which is that he is dangerously close to being in the Kam Wimbley mode: One-trick pony.
I'm not going to sit here and list all the things that he needs to work on. That's all out in the open now. I simply don't dig taking a guy with so many question marks when he's lacking in so many areas. He's pure upside and zero production, which is the opposite of what I wanted.
The Browns have gambled. Time will tell if it pays off. I'm not optimistic, but pray I'm wrong.
Quote: If it's all muscle, it shouldn't slow him down at all.
To a degree. If he gains 25 lbs, he is going to slow down, muscle or not.
Plus, just gaining muscle isn't healthy.
It may look good, but God put us here with some fat on our bodies for a reason. If you or others don't believe in God, nature put fat on our bodies for a reason.
There seems to be a common belief that muscle mass is a goal worth pursuing for its own sake, that only applies if the sport is bodybuilding. Functional strength, that can be applied athletically when competing against an opponent is what really matters. If a 240 lb Linebacker has strength on par with a 300 lb OL and a speed, quickness and agility advantage to go with it, I'm taking the linebacker.
Since I'm known around here for long-winded posts, I thought I'd take a chance at the type of shorthand that seems to rule the day around here. It would seem that I was misunderstood, without my usual 5+ paragraphs.
In other posts,Mingo's height/weight stats have been compared to those of James Harrison (Steelers) and Jayson Taylor (dolphins). I was hoping that those inferences (from previous DT'ers threads) were a given when I posted what I did.
(Perhaps more is now expected of me, since I've gained the reputation as a "wordy poster.")
I hoped that those previous posts were enough to frame my POV in this post.
Agreed: Mingo isn't a "small man." He's a 'long man.'
...And that might translate to an "effective man," if he's used in accordance to his skill set.
His 6'4"/240 looks more like 6'5"/205 on his frame... and that is what's so deceptive about him. What we see is much less than what we get, yo.
I satill expect the NFL training regimen to add "heft" to his persona (which is still much different from "weight')... and give him what he might be lacking as a rook. It's why I stuck to the 10 lb framework in my post.
25 lb would definitely change his playing dynamic. 10-15 wouldn't.
No probs with this prospect, so far.
Boom or bust, he'll be one of the more interesting 'new stories' that we have to watch.
How dumb is Les Miles and the rest of the LSU staff that make tons of money coaching that probably couldn't find other jobs that make as much as they make currently?
I ask this for one reason.
If you believe that they would play a top-6 in the draft NFL talent as a contain option on the strongside...then do you believe they want to continue making millions of dollars.
This does not make sense to me.
If I had a physical freak who was going to blow up the nfl I might put in packages that highlight him. I might have him playing on the QB's blindside. And I might use him in a way that doesn't say...."keep this QB in the pocket therefore you will only have 4.5 sacks this year."
I don't know what to think about this pick....I just wanted to counterbalance the "this guy is going to be anything else but a complete project in 2013."
Quote: If you believe that they would play a top-6 in the draft NFL talent as a contain option on the strongside...then do you believe they want to continue making millions of dollars.
Quote:
If I had a physical freak who was going to blow up the nfl I might put in packages that highlight him. I might have him playing on the QB's blindside. And I might use him in a way that doesn't say...."keep this QB in the pocket therefore you will only have 4.5 sacks this year."
I don't know that I quite understand this logic.
The goal of game planning isn't to maximize the value of any given player's skill set. It's to maximize the value of the roster as a whole.
For example - maybe it wasn't the best idea to use Shaun Rogers as a space eater like we did - he was much more effective as a rusher. But if we attempted to utilize his skills to his maximum abilities, it wouldn't do our scheme very well on the whole.
And in college it becomes even more flexible - as if you have a man among boys (which almost all top 10 picks are in college), you don't need to maximize their potential to succeed - you can have them satisfactorily perform any number of duties, even if it isn't their direct skill set. They're men amongst boys - they can handle the task and be pretty good at it (even if it's not a total utilization of their skill sets).
I just have to look at the guys who hit the NFL and blow it up after a so-so college career. (stat wise)
Example: JJ Watt. I mention him because I was looking at some past draft "instant grades", and the pick of Watt was panned as a waste. He only had 11.5 sacks in his 2 year college career. He didn't play a position of high value. (3-4 DE) Plus, the Texans already had Marion Williams. What was the point in drafting Watt?
Von Miller had a long college career, but his best year was his junior year. Why did he drop from 17 sacks as a junior to 10.5 sacks as a senior? Why would the Broncos take him when they had a pressing need at CB?
Aldon Smith had 14.5 sacks in college, and his best year was also his junior year. What could he possibly do in the NFL? Well, 2 years and 33.5 sacks in, what indeed?
Of these 3, none showed the promise, especially in their senior years, of what they became almost immediately in the NFL. (it took Watt a year to blow up)
I do think that part of the issue is that the college game still features the run, especially the QB running, more than great QB play. Most college QBs option run. If a guy plays straight rush, the QB will run where he vacated, and be gone. Most NFL QBs do not run to the same degree. Also, many college QBs are physically and talent limited, and they aren't going to rear back and drop passes 40 yards down the field. They might occasionally, but most of them will do the short stuff.
Look at the SEC. Who are the great QBs that their teams rely upon to win games?
Did Jeff Driskel at Florida put the fear of God into anyone last year?
Anyone at Kentucky? At Missouri? Anyone at South Carolina that made opponents cringe with fear at the QB spot? (even though they did have decent talent there)
Vanderbilt?
Even "name" guys like Tyler Wilson weren't overwhelming as passers. Respectable, perhaps, but not fearsome.
Was there anyone on Auburn's roster to worry about throwing the ball? At Ole Miss? Mississippi State?
Manziel at A&M, McCarron at Bama, Bray at Tennessee, and the kid from Georgia were probably the closest to scary passers. That means that most games were probably more about contain than rush.
Quote: His 6'4"/240 looks more like 6'5"/205 on his frame... and that is what's so deceptive about him. What we see is much less than what we get, yo.
That's part of the issue with Mingo.
I believe there's a misconception that he's going to be able to add significant weight because he's "lean." When looking at his frame, he doesn't have the kind if wide build conducive to adding 15-pounds of muscle.
Mingo is never going to be a good run-stopper. He's at the bottom of the draft class in that aspect. Having said that, he's going to get paid to come at the QB, not be a 4-3 DE and hold the point. That's where the issues with his lack of natural and instinctual rush ability comes into play.
I have a great fear that Mingo is going to be the new version of Kam Wimbley...an edge-rusher who lacks the ability to develop dynamic moves and is questionable (at best) against the run.
That's a helluva gamble to make with the 6th pick in the draft.
Quote: His 6'4"/240 looks more like 6'5"/205 on his frame... and that is what's so deceptive about him. What we see is much less than what we get, yo.
That's part of the issue with Mingo.
I believe there's a misconception that he's going to be able to add significant weight because he's "lean." When looking at his frame, he doesn't have the kind if wide build conducive to adding 15-pounds of muscle.
Mingo is never going to be a good run-stopper. He's at the bottom of the draft class in that aspect. Having said that, he's going to get paid to come at the QB, not be a 4-3 DE and hold the point. That's where the issues with his lack of natural and instinctual rush ability comes into play.
I have a great fear that Mingo is going to be the new version of Kam Wimbley...an edge-rusher who lacks the ability to develop dynamic moves and is questionable (at best) against the run.
That's a helluva gamble to make with the 6th pick in the draft.
Wimbley was my first mental comparison for Mingo. Alex Hall (now with the Winnipeg Blue Bombers) was my second.
Athletic freaks, but not enough natural football player in them to make full use of all of that athletic talent.
I do agree that I don't think he's going to add some 20 pounds like it's nothing. He doesn't have a huge frame that looks like it's going to fill out, not the giant wide shoulders that you saw in other freak athletes like Dwight Howard and Lebron. You knew both of them would have no problem adding weight and muscle.
As far as Mingo goes, could he have come off any better in these interviews? You have to love this kid. Plays with a mean streak on the field, sounds like the nicest guy you've ever met off the field.
I just love that it really seems like they did their homework, and got their guy.
I think that Mingo leaves Wimbley in the dust off the snap. I also think that he is actually ahead of where Wimbley was against the run. He's not a finished product, by any stretch, but he is better than Wimbley was coming out of school.
I also love the way that Mingo explodes through the QB on sacks, He gets hold of a QB, that QB is going to know Mingo got him.
Mingo may not be able to add a lot of weight, but I think that he can add a small amount. (and already has, from reports) One other thing about Mingo that I like is that he seems to be very flexible. He can take down the QB, even if he has gone by him. I also watched him bull rush DJ Fluker in a clip, and shove him 5 yards back. He had Fluker knocked completely off balance, and was muscling him back. Impressive stuff.
I think that we're going to like Mingo, and I think that Horton will have quite a few ideas as far as how to use him. Personally, I hope that we slide Kruger down to DE on passing downs, and bring Mingo in to rush off the edge, with Sheard coming off the other side. See who gets to the QB first.
I wouldn't go that far, man. Mingo is ever-so-slightly faster than Wimbley.
I looked up their combine results.
Mingo ran a 4.58 Wimbley ran a 4.61
Mingo's 3-cone was a 6.84 Wimbley's was a 6.98
Mingo's 20-yard shuttle was a 4.39 Wimbley's was a 4.48
Truly, though, it's not about the hundreths of a second difference in those times that matter, it's their natural rush moves, hand usage, leverage, and instincts that matter.
I'm forever going to be linked to Jarvis Jones around here because of how heavily I pushed for him, much in the same way I stay linked to Aaron Rodgers because of how I pimped him. Jarvis Jones doesn't have the measurables that Mingo has, but Mingo doesn't display the natural rush ability that Jones does.
It isn't about faster with these edge-rushers in the 3-4. Mingo will have to develop his rush abilities beyond just quickness or he's going to bust.
but Mingo doesn't display the natural rush ability that Jones does.
How do you know, Mingo played in LSU's conservative Defense, while Jones played in more of an attack D @ UGA, I too wanted Jones but I think Mingo has much more upside ... JMHO
Athletically Wimbley maybe a fair comparison but that's where the Comparison ends. If you watch only the highlights you see Mingo do a Spin move. That's already one more rush move that Wimbley ever developed over his career and that's not even factoring the other stuff Mingo does.
I remember all those articles about him, Kam, learning new pass rush moves yet year after year he never did. Mingo already has 2x the amount of moves Wimbley did. Additionally Wimbley doesn't and didn't have Mingo's first step. And in a race to the Qb every 10th of second matters especially when you long arms as Mingo does.
Mingo has his weaknesses for sure therefore there is no need to invent them.
Great...Bust all words. All I know from what I saw. The kid has one of the fastest First steps (with pads on n not short olympics) I've ever seen the last first step like that I have seen is LT. LT mind you had a lot more going on than his first step so Mingo has a lot to go to even be a thought. I'm talking First step which has so so much to do with football especially the NFL where the game is so fast. That is what I like about him. If he works hard he'll add on the pounds n be more efficient w/technique.
Aaron Rodgers - not specifically pointing at you Toad but I am amazed as the years go on how many Rodger pimps there were in 2005...I don't remember many,,,lol
Jarvis Jones...sorry the kid ran a 4.95 - not what you measure OLBs on...but a 4.95??? What that did was force teams to go back n review the film on Jones. What they saw were more system opportunities than Jones making the opportunities happen. A lot of those successes will not occur with the likes of Joe Thomas blocking him. So what happened was the guy Jordan took his role n instead of the Dolphins jumping up n taking Jones at #3 it was Jordan that got taken instead.
Will turn out great??? None of us can say either way on Jones but he dropped for a reason in this weak class.
Right now going in - not close in talent n speed not 40 speed either its that first step.
Quote: I read that he's going to wear "The Assassin's" old number ...... 51. (For those who remember Eddie Johnson) Hopefully he brings that same kind of attitude to the field.
Now there's a guy that could put his game face on! Loved him. RIP Eddie.
if he can bring Eddie's attitude with Barks skills i'll be more than happy with that!
Quote: You say you are linked to Aaron Rodgers. Everyone else says you are linked to Jason Campbell.
I actually have him linked to Tim Rattay.
That's just cruel.
Actually, it's factual.
I don't recall what year it was but we were in the middle of yet another busted 1st round QB working his way out of the city and the league. I was pushing Rattay as a guy to sign and play for a year while we developed a newly drafted QB. Same thing for Campbell.
Getting back to Mingo, I'm not gonna toe the company line and play that the glass is half-full. I think he's a helluva risky pick who has a higher-than-acceptable risk of being a bust. I don't hate Mingo the way I hated Quinn and Weeden, but he's a project, and I don't like projects at #6 in an entire draft. As for Jarvis Jones I'm going to hate seeing him rack up sacks every year against us. We went for upside over production and that's dicey. I would have been much happier with Milliner or Jordan over Mingo.
The two best 1st round picks we've had in the last decade were not sexy picks. They were production guys in Thomas and Mack. I didn't believe we were in the position to go after upside while taking on risk.
I really, really like Jones, and I hate that he went to a perfect situation in Pittsburgh.
However, he is an injury risk. If he wasn't, if he had a clean bill of health, then he would have gone much earlier than he did. He has risks, just like Mingo does ... except that Mingo can grow out of his limits, whereas Jones could be a hit away from instant retirement. I love Jones' burst, and first step. I think that he is a tremendous pass rusher. That said, there is a reason why he slipped as far as he did. If he was completely healthy, and not a health risk, I could have seen him easily being the 1st pass rusher off the board. He could have gone to Miami, or Detroit, or to us, or to Philly, or to the Jets, or the Raiders, or the Saints. Bottom line is that a lot of teams likely would have grabbed Jones if he wasn't a health risk. (us included) However, he is a health risk, one that the Steelers felt was justified taking at 17 ..and we'll have to see if they were correct in taking him.
What I like about Mingo is his sheer physical talent. Is there a risk? Of course there is. There was risk taking Courtney Brown. There was risk taking William Green. There was risk taking KW2. There is risk with every player. However, if a team is going to be a great team, they need some great players ..... and Mingo has greatness potential. The Browns could have gone "safer", with a CB coming off of his 5th surgery ...... but instead they went with a boom/bust kinda guy, who precisely fits the scheme we will run. I bet that Horton had a huge voice in us taking Mingo. If a guy is a consensus pick, and the coaching staff agrees with the rest of the front office, then I don't have a problem with the pick. This team has a bunch of pretty good players. What we need are those incredibly talented difference makers. I think that Mingo could become one of those players. I think that he has every bit as much physical talent as Jones.
I think Mingo is a lot more physically talented than Jones.
Jones' 40-time is what people seem to fixate on (and they fail to realize that he was injured at the Pro Day when he posted that 4.92), but his 7.45 cone, 9'3 broad, 30.5 inch vertical (all measures of how much explosion he has) are also really, really bad for a early-mid first round WOLB. I want my WOLBs to have more burst off the snap than those numbers indicate.
To me, Mingo has Von Miller's ceiling while I see Jones as a very safe player who's probably an 8-12 sack per year guy. He's a good athlete, but not elite, and that'll prevent him from ever being one of the best pass rushers in the league. And as of right now, he struggles against the run and in coverage. And his career can end at any moment.
The Browns got the superior prospect in Mingo. I'm happy to have him.
I think Jones' slide had very little to do with his neck and everything to do with his times. That's what made Suggs fall as well.
Including Powder in the response, I fully agree that Mingo is the better athlete but feel that Jones is the better football player. It goes back to my feelings about picking safer with known production versus picking little, risky production with big upside.
My intent isn't to turn this into a Jones versus Mingo debate. It's more about the philosophy of taking a boom-or-bust guy, ergo my feelings that I'd have been happier with Milliner or even Jordan. Now word didn't come out till the 12th hour that Milliner had gone through several surgeries and that gave me pause, but it's the level of gamble with Mingo that has my teeth on edge. I don't think he can get significantly bigger and stronger which means he stands a bigger chance of being a rusher only, though his physical gifts are supposed to translate well to coverage. Of course that's the least important aspect of what he'll be asked to do, but such is life.
He'll show some amazing burst in OTA's and make jaws drop, but the real test will be his first pre-season games. I sure don't see a guy who is going to do much more than be a situational part this season. I'll keep this as my last skeptical post about Mingo until we get near the season.
I think a big difference in how I view Mingo versus others is that I think he's not that much of a boom-or-bust player. There's definitely some risk that he won't hit the ceiling that his natural athleticism indicates, but even if he doesn't hit this proverbial ceiling, he's still going to be an excellent situational pass rusher if used correctly. This goes back to coaching. I trust Horton more than almost anyone in the league to use a natural 3-4 OLB correctly.
And I still think there's a pretty good chance of Mingo hitting his ceiling. He seems to be an upstanding guy, he fits a 3-4 much better than a 4-3, and Horton is one of the most respected DCs in the game. There's a lot of factors going in his favor, especially compared to someone like Jordan in Miami IMO.
Isn't a player who is only very good at rushing the passer an extremely valuable player?
Quote: I don't think he can get significantly bigger and stronger
Why do you think that? If you have explained earlier please tell me and I will go back and read it. But it seems as though many players go to the NFL and get bigger and stronger and also maintain their other attributes. Why is Mingo incapable of doing what so many others have done?
Yeah, I don't understand people's reluctance with the idea of light-ish pass rushers gaining weight once they hit the NFL. The only example (and this is an extreme one) I can think of in regards to a pass rusher not being able to gain weight and it completely derailing his career is Aaron Maybin. But Aaron Maybin is the exception, not the rule.
Also, am I missing where Jones is significantly bigger than Mingo? Mingo is taller and weighs about the same. I understand that he probably put on muscle to impress at the combine, but he also put on muscle (which you say he can't do) and still ran very well for a man his size.
I disagree. Jones had some excellent tape .... 40 times be damned. He knows how to get after the QB. I just don't see teams dropping him that far ... especially teams that desperately need a difference maker on defense. I think that his medical had to play a big part in his drop.
Quote: There's definitely some risk that he won't hit the ceiling that his natural athleticism indicates, but even if he doesn't hit this proverbial ceiling, he's still going to be an excellent situational pass rusher if used correctly.
Quoting Powder first...
I wouldn't consider it a good thing if Mingo only becomes a situational rusher. I do fully agree that he was always meant for the 3-4. I would also note that all the coaching in the world can't make a turtle fly, so it's going to take more than coaching to get Mingo to learn how to use his hands and gain more leverage.
Quote: Why do you think that? If you have explained earlier please tell me and I will go back and read it. But it seems as though many players go to the NFL and get bigger and stronger and also maintain their other attributes. Why is Mingo incapable of doing what so many others have done?
This was in reference to my belief that Mingo can't get significantly bigger and stronger.
No man, I didn't go into this deeply earlier in the thread so going back to read won't produce anything, hehe.
I know I'm going against the grain on this one, but I don't see a frame where he's going to be able to keep another 20 pounds on it. He's very lean and muscular but he's also got a relatively thin build. If you're going to add weight you want a wide frame, which I don't see with Mingo. I feel that he's in the mold of slightly-built offensive linemen who can't eat enough food to maintain weight as the season goes on. Adding 10 pounds isn't going to help him hold up at the point of attack. Part of adding true functional strength is building up the core and legs, and I'm not sure I see a frame that can do that.
It seems that all I'm doing is ripping Mingo. I'm not at all. If you can keep people off of him and let him work in space he's going to do some damage. My fears revolve around what happens to him when he's engaged. I don't see a guy who is going to ever be solid either against the run, holding up at the point, or shedding blocks. If there's a scheme that can protect someone like Mingo it'll be under the tutelage of Horton.
I wouldn't consider it to be a "good" thing, either.
But becoming an excellent situational pass rusher (which again, is his floor IMO) wouldn't exactly make him the "boom-or-bust" player that everyone on this forum seems to be labeling him as.
Quote: If he puts on 10 pounds he will weigh about the same as both Clay Matthews and DeMarcus Ware.
And yet both Ware and Matthews are considered stout against the run and good at shedding blocks. So ten pounds is going to make Mingo good in those areas as well.
If you look at their pics, it's clear that Mingo doesn't have the same build as either of those guys, and adding a mere 10 pounds isn't going to get him there.
Many players look exactly the same on paper in terms of size but don't play anything like it on the field. Mingo would have to add 20 pounds of pure muscle to have their size, and I don't see that happening.
Trying to find fair and telling pics isn't easy, but clearly 10 pounds of muscle is not going to put Mingo into the same conversation as Ware and Matthews. He's just that long, that lean, and that slight-of-build. Much of it is in his lower body, that's where the power of Matthews and Ware come from. And for the record, that picture of Mingo wasns't taken in 2009. It was taken the day before the draft.
Not all players are built the same, yet can be listed as the same height and weight.
What Ware and Matthews do aren't things that Mingo is going to be able to do. His game will be different. It'll be all about speed, and the lack of the other attributes which would make him an all around player are my concerns.
Jones is a MUCH bigger bust risk than Mingo....and as you know, I didn't want us to draft neither. That said, Mingo has a much better motor/intensity to his game and he doesn't have the medical Jones has. The "measurables over production" talk is pretty much useless the moment you realize that they played 2 DIFFERENT positions and had completely opposite responsibilities most of the time. Jones was allowed to freelance, Mingo not and he faced an OT a couple of inches away from him. I think around 75% of Jones' sacks were of the unblocked variety, so while it's absolutely legit to question Mingo's problem of shedding blocks, it's somewhat biased to act as if Jones is much better at it, because he ain't. His "rush" was over the moment someone, even RBs/FBs, got a hand on him
But we've been there before, we will find out I guess...but I was fist bumping when the Steelers selected Jones over Eifert and Rhodes. The Steelers' drafts have sucked lately and are the no1 reason why they're an old 8-8 team clearly on the decline...drafting Jones and L.Bell with their best picks will cement that, although they recovered nicely in the 3rd to 5th
I think where we agree is that we should have taken the trade down offer, as Eifert/Rhodes and Warford/Taylor >>> Mingo imho
Living in SEC country, I get to watch a lot of SEC games. I heard all the talk about Jones, got excited because I knew we needed an edge rusher, and watched him closely. I was very disappointed. The guy played w/out discipline. He would charge up-field and often be the reason why teams had big plays. I was praying we would not draft him and this was before I knew about his medical concerns.
I think Mingo is walking into a perfect situation for him as a player. I truly believe that Horton is not going to over-burden him and instead turn him loose to go after the QB. I think his explosiveness combined w/the many different fronts we'll use will get him in the backfield on a consistent basis.
Earlier this morning, Eric Davis from NFL Network, predicted that Mingo would be the NFL Rookie of the Year. He had similar reasons to mine as to why Mingo would win the award.
I suppose neither of our opinions mean much. I understand that predictions like these don't carry much weight. However--after I got over my initial disappointment of not taking Milliner--I began to think about Mingo's skill set, the talent that will be in our front seven, and Horton's schemes. It's exciting to think about.
I can see Mingo putting up huge sack numbers. That doesn't mean he is the greatest player in the world, but it does mean that he'll be an effective producer for this team. Hard to argue w/that if that is indeed what transpires.
I suppose neither of our opinions mean much. I understand that predictions like these don't carry much weight. However--after I got over my initial disappointment of not taking Milliner--I began to think about Mingo's skill set, the talent that will be in our front seven, and Horton's schemes. It's exciting to think about.
I don't think Milliner is anything special, I think good CB's seem to come up every single year, but Mingo? If this guy turns out to be good, everyone will like him more than they would have if Milliner came in and was good. Mingo is more of a unique talent if you ask me. He's not guaranteed to be anything just like any of these draft picks are.
I think he can still have a big impact, all while not playing every down. I don't think he plays a ton of plays every game, in his first year. They're going to work him in steadily.
I love that Horton has options, and a really nice rotation on the defenisve line.
Georgia linebacker Jarvis Jones is one of the bigger wild cards in the 2013 NFL Draft. He's a phenomenally athletic player and as dangerous a pass-rusher as they come. But he's got a history of spinal stenosis, and that could scare teams off.
Unless Jones is given a clean bill of healthy, anyway. Which, according to Dan Pompei of the National Football Post, is exactly what's happened.
Pompei reports that orthepedist Craig Brigham examined Jones and, in a report that was sent to NFL teams, said Jones doesn't have spinal stenosis but instead "either had a very mild incident of spinal cord concussion or merely a stinger that has long since resolved," according to the Pompei.
Brigham's report told teams that even if Jones suffered another similar injury that "it would not be a career-ending issue."
"Jarvis is cleared to play without restriction," Brigham's report concluded.
There's been a lot of back and forth recently about Jones' health, with him reportedly drawing red flags from "multiple teams" because of his health. Jones adamantly disputed that report to the Atlanta Journal-Constitution.
NFLDraftScout.com learned at the combine that at least three teams still had Jones on their board and that he'd be cleared medically. The number, in reality, is much higher.
And if Dr. Brigham's report is accurate and teams buy in to what the orthopedist is preaching, there are only going to be a limited number of teams -- perhaps five or 10 -- that even have a shot at landing Jones in the first place.
Toad: When I wrote that 4.95 I did think about Suggs - but in doing so there was a reason Suggs ran slow...his agent wanting him to be attractive to 4-3 DE teams had him put on weight n neglected the speed - Jones had no reasoning behind his slow times.
DJ...man I love talking football with ya (well reading football) without the ego crapola from both of us. I think that is exactly what happened a lot of teams went back to the film n looked at it more closely. As I stated a lot of those great plays were system plays where he was untouched as you noted. NFL is different...heck the emphasis here is all RBs have to block we know that is one of the only major transitions the RBs have to go through in the NFL. Those opportunities will be far n few between. Even though he is going into a good systems D. I don't see the Harrison in him as of yet...just like Mingo - he can better himself to be a Great Player??? But you cannot teach speed
Vers...I know you were a Millner guy - that must of been tough...I think you will be happy with the McFadden kid been watching a lot of film on him we got a steal
ESPN had us as one of the Bad Drafts - Why? Cause we didn't take Eifert at #6 due to their War Room Imitation of us. McShay was the Head Scout guy, Mangini was Chud who they gave not much power in who we picked just if he liked the guy. Forgot who was Lombardi (Pioli?? totally don't remember) who made the pick....The 3 guys they had to choose from was Eifert, Cooper n another I forgot (not OLB or CB) who maybe Geno?...So Kiper stated why he had the Browns as the Bad draft in the AFC North...said we should have picked EIFERT n didn't.
Like their 5 minute pretend they are the Browns War Room was more efficient than the actual War Room
Toad - Pics on Mingo specifically...thanks - definitely this kid is going to put on some weight in a year or two (don't wish it on him right away...maybe 5-10 lbs this year) but good to know that slight looking body weighs 240...He'll be closer to 260 in a year or so! These kids love to add weight they get to have a Michael Phelps diet...what was that like a dozen eggs n pancakes for breakfast lol
Vers...Agree worst case we utilize similar to how the 49ers used Aldon Smith - but he could surprise us n be football intelligent n grasp more of what Horton wants out of the position??? We'll see but the key is for us to score on O. The more situations with us having the lead the more Passing situations we will have late in the game making Mingo more relevant if he has a limited role his rookie season!
haha...just saw that movie again late night like 2 nights ago...lol
I didn't associate it - Don't know why??? For some reason I keep associating his Name with a NEW Breed of Dawg....Mingo breed (I guess cause of Dingo the wild dog breed of Australia???)
Quote: perhaps I'm showing my age, or the fact that I'm a bit of a Sci-Fi geek, but does anyone else think "Mingo the Merciless" when you see his name?
Quote: Toad - Pics on Mingo specifically...thanks - definitely this kid is going to put on some weight in a year or two (don't wish it on him right away...maybe 5-10 lbs this year) but good to know that slight looking body weighs 240...He'll be closer to 260 in a year or so!
tab, you can't teach speed but you also can't expect speed to translate when adding weight. Mingo played at 230# at LSU and, as we all know, all the effective 3-4 edge rushers go 255 at minimum. Is he going to stay fast adding 10% to his body weight? That's my primary concern with Mingo the Merciless.
Quote: Vers...Agree worst case we utilize similar to how the 49ers used Aldon Smith - but he could surprise us n be football intelligent n grasp more of what Horton wants out of the position???
Even Aldon Smith, skinny as he looked, was 255 going into the draft.
Quote: perhaps I'm showing my age, or the fact that I'm a bit of a Sci-Fi geek, but does anyone else think "Mingo the Merciless" when you see his name?
We need some photoshopping done, me thinks
Don't know who that is, but I could go with that.
You never watched Flash Gordon? Ming the Merciless.
Weight does not have to mean loss of speed. Ala Suggs in his draft year...he put on a lot of weight for the combine...too much too soon. But over a length of time where you are scientifically putting on Muscle n keeping those muscles elongated with stretching regimen while adding them on. Also the diet - this isn't OL adding on weight from eating the entire menu at McDonalds (well Old school OL...you know like Chance Warmack or Andre Smith...lol ) . We are talking a scientific approach regarding Carbs n Protein intake when n where during the day n workouts. Too add on muscle n lose more Fat. You actually can get guys faster. Key is to elongate the muscle as you add - so it doesn't bunch up like a Body Builder n then tear when in use athletically. Maybe what happened with DQ in his early on Pec tears??? hard to stretch the Pecs.
I don't wish to see him 260 at camp...but next years camp it would be nice.
255 Aldon Smith - betcha coming out of training camp he was down closer to that 235 area his rookie season.
Note: I'm an agent (pretend not real ) - I got these guys eating Salty foods n saturating them with several gallons of Water for that Combine weigh in...lol You know MLB Pitchers on a hot summer night lose close to 15 lbs weight (water loss) well you can add 6-12 by over saturating for weight stuff...We want Mingo to of course be well saturated for his athletic endeavors n not cramp...but the weight gain we wish is all Muscle. He has room to put it on SCIENTIFICALLY where it will increase or help speed not hinder it.
Quote: Even Aldon Smith, skinny as he looked, was 255 going into the draft.
Von Miller was low to mid 240s and I don't believe he has gone up a whole lot since then (in fact I think NFL.com has his weight at 237).. and he's doing ok.
I really don't see Mingo's weight as an issue.. the only issue I see is his ability to add better pass rushing technique, which is something most high draft picks lack because they are used to relying on their freakish athletics to just beat people... if he's coachable and works hard, I suspect he will be fine.
Quote: Getting back to Mingo, I'm not gonna toe the company line and play that the glass is half-full. I think he's a helluva risky pick who has a higher-than-acceptable risk of being a bust. I don't hate Mingo the way I hated Quinn and Weeden, but he's a project, and I don't like projects at #6 in an entire draft. As for Jarvis Jones I'm going to hate seeing him rack up sacks every year against us. We went for upside over production and that's dicey. I would have been much happier with Milliner or Jordan over Mingo.
I'm glad I didn't post that or it would have been about my "agenda".
But I do agree he's a project and I agree that you shouldn't draft a project #6 overall.
Source: nfl.com This weight debate keeps cropping up. So I'll say again what I said before, weight nor muscle mass necessarily equate to strength. The players mentioned above were not rocked up behemoths. I would take any of them at their listed playing weights. Its the Strength and Conditioning Coaches who will work with Mingo, not the bodybuilding coaches.
Quote: If he puts on 10 pounds he will weigh about the same as both Clay Matthews and DeMarcus Ware.
And yet both Ware and Matthews are considered stout against the run and good at shedding blocks. So ten pounds is going to make Mingo good in those areas as well.
If you look at their pics, it's clear that Mingo doesn't have the same build as either of those guys, and adding a mere 10 pounds isn't going to get him there.
Many players look exactly the same on paper in terms of size but don't play anything like it on the field. Mingo would have to add 20 pounds of pure muscle to have their size, and I don't see that happening.
Trying to find fair and telling pics isn't easy, but clearly 10 pounds of muscle is not going to put Mingo into the same conversation as Ware and Matthews. He's just that long, that lean, and that slight-of-build. Much of it is in his lower body, that's where the power of Matthews and Ware come from. And for the record, that picture of Mingo wasns't taken in 2009. It was taken the day before the draft.
Not all players are built the same, yet can be listed as the same height and weight.
What Ware and Matthews do aren't things that Mingo is going to be able to do. His game will be different. It'll be all about speed, and the lack of the other attributes which would make him an all around player are my concerns.
Just FYI all those picture are heavily photoshopped even #94. I do this so i can tell.
I think it pretty clear that both Ware and Matthews are much larger in the upper body than Mingo. Given some time in an NFL weight room Mingo can put on 10-15 lbs of clean weight and not lose any speed.
Fact is, my concerns are his poor tacking. The fact he is questioned by how larger opponents have been known to drive block him right out of plays. His ability to shed blockers has also been questioned.
My questions and concerns are about some basics he lacks that simply having a quick burst won't answer.
Hopefully these issues can be coached up, but IMO, there's more question marks and more of a project here than many wish to discuss or admit. The weight is actually the least of my concerns.
Quote: You really need to address that to someone else.
Fact is, my concerns are his poor tacking. The fact he is questioned by how larger opponents have been known to drive block him right out of plays. His ability to shed blockers has also been questioned.
My questions and concerns are about some basics he lacks that simply having a quick burst won't answer.
Hopefully these issues can be coached up, but IMO, there's more question marks and more of a project here than many wish to discuss or admit. The weight is actually the least of my concerns.
Ok... I don't think I had to do more than use established board etiquette. My post clearly starts with a j/c. It was never intended for you specifically.
What might have happened is that I started writing my response when your post was the last one in the thread. Others were added before I was finished writing what I wanted to say. Hope that clears things up.
Quote: If he puts on 10 pounds he will weigh about the same as both Clay Matthews and DeMarcus Ware.
And yet both Ware and Matthews are considered stout against the run and good at shedding blocks. So ten pounds is going to make Mingo good in those areas as well.
If you look at their pics, it's clear that Mingo doesn't have the same build as either of those guys, and adding a mere 10 pounds isn't going to get him there.
Many players look exactly the same on paper in terms of size but don't play anything like it on the field. Mingo would have to add 20 pounds of pure muscle to have their size, and I don't see that happening.
Trying to find fair and telling pics isn't easy, but clearly 10 pounds of muscle is not going to put Mingo into the same conversation as Ware and Matthews. He's just that long, that lean, and that slight-of-build. Much of it is in his lower body, that's where the power of Matthews and Ware come from. And for the record, that picture of Mingo wasns't taken in 2009. It was taken the day before the draft.
Not all players are built the same, yet can be listed as the same height and weight.
What Ware and Matthews do aren't things that Mingo is going to be able to do. His game will be different. It'll be all about speed, and the lack of the other attributes which would make him an all around player are my concerns.
Just FYI all those picture are heavily photoshopped even #94. I do this so i can tell.
Yeah, I can tell too. Look at Ware's (#94) wrists w/ the tape just for a start. It looks obviously fake...something is up. I won't start on the magazine cover....
Pit, other than Milliner, who in this draft didn't have huge question marks about their game? Heck, most people even questioned Milliner. The only other safe guy I saw was Eifert, but can you imagine the uproar had we drafted him? LOL
Seriously bro, even the guys who went ahead of him are questionable. Ansah? Are you kidding me? Jordan? Heck, I can't even remember the name of the OT who was drafted 1st. Do you remember you and I leading the charge to draft Joe Thomas back in the day? Do you think either of those tackles compare to Joe? And they were the best of this class.
I usually get excited about the draft and do a lot of researching. I get tapes from one of the guys I used to scout with and break guys down. I enjoy doing it. I started doing it this year and just quit. It was a lame draft, Pit.
Does Mingo have question marks? He sure does.
Is he the guy I wanted? No, I wanted Milliner or a trade down.
Was he one of the better prospects in this particular draft? I think so.
Do I think he will fit in w/what Horton does on defense? Ab-so-freak-ing-lut-ly!
Bottom line: I don't think he is a sure thing. I do think that he was just as good as anyone else we could have taken, sans Milliner. I even think he is safer than a guy like Ansah. It was just a weird draft.
I was somewhat hoping for Milliner, too, but Mingo's growing on me. The strength/weight question concerned me a lot especially considering he didn't bench at the combine or a pro-day, but I feel a little better after finding a couple good reads on football outsiders.
Quote: I was somewhat hoping for Milliner, too, but Mingo's growing on me. The strength/weight question concerned me a lot especially considering he didn't bench at the combine or a pro-day, but I feel a little better after finding a couple good reads on football outsiders.
It's too bad those two links can't be posted (due to included video examples and graphs).
I read these several days ago. Both are excellent, informative articles which everyone on here should read. Much more in depth and analytical than anything else I've read on Mingo/Deon Jordon. The comparisons are eye opening.
Quote: I have a great fear that Mingo is going to be the new version of Kam Wimbley...an edge-rusher who lacks the ability to develop dynamic moves and is questionable (at best) against the run.
That's a helluva gamble to make with the 6th pick in the draft.
I believe most of us would have felt better about this draft had we'd addressed the CB issue in the first rather add another "pass rushing specialist." It was to my understanding that we've already addressed that with the addition of Kruger in FA. I get the philosophy and reason for the pick, however, in your first draft as a rebuilt organization, you have to hit your first few picks out of the park or you set your team back. I hope Mingo proves the majority of us wrong in the Wimbley comparison.
Here is a picture of Clay Jr. when he's just playing and not all pumped up and flexing for a muscle magazine which is probably also altered... he doesn't look nearly as thick...
and a similar picture of Mingo, not playing with little kids..
He is thinner, but give the kid a year or two to add 10-15 pounds and I don't honestly think there is that much difference.... Clay Jr. at the combine was 240, Mingo was 241... Ware was 251 so he has only added about 5 pounds, whereas Clay Jr and Mingo will be asked to add more.. I really don't see this as a big deal.
First post on this board. Many years on Browns Chat...
I didn't like the pick when it occurred, since wasn't top priority area of need in my book. Trying to let it grow on me. Hope the intent is to use him as an outside LB and he can improve run tackling. At his current configuration, my fear is he'll get trucked by big RBs and forklifted by experienced linemen. But I gotta admit, his speed looks awesome on the highlight reels.
I'm not really throwing a fit about it or anything Verse. I agree this was a weird draft.
If Mingo overcomes the questions surrounding him, he should do very well. If not? Time will tell.
I also agree there wasn't a LT in this draft that will compare to Joe Thomas. He's a very rare find.
Do I think Millner was a much safrer pick at a position of need? Yes I do. But I'm not shooting the Mingo pick down. I just feel there was a safer option and we took more of a gamble.
Quote: Do I think Millner was a much safrer pick at a position of need? Yes I do. But I'm not shooting the Mingo pick down. I just feel there was a safer option and we took more of a gamble.
So you think taking a player that's held together with super glue would be a safer pick? He's gonna have a hard time just making it thru the year let alone playing for years. JMO
It is obvious that the deciders hand Mingo rated higher than Milliner (to me it is obvious as they both were there and they took Mingo). I am curious as to why that was. Was it the 5 operations?
Quote: First post on this board. Many years on Browns Chat...
I didn't like the pick when it occurred, since wasn't top priority area of need in my book. Trying to let it grow on me. Hope the intent is to use him as an outside LB and he can improve run tackling. At his current configuration, my fear is he'll get trucked by big RBs and forklifted by experienced linemen. But I gotta admit, his speed looks awesome on the highlight reels.
Welcome to the board, Nuke.
My guess: the powers that be saw more of a need for a pressure pass rush than DB. It could be that they are from the camp that believes pressure takes some of the weight off DB's, OR maybe they see something in the guys we already have that make them feel they can work with.
From my POV, BOTH were needs, after seeing our sporadic pass rush last year.
Either spoy being addressed was going to be fine with me, so I wasn't upset at the Mingo selection at all, even though I knew we still needed SOME kind of answer at DB.
I liked Millner but the surgeries would have prevented me from drafting him that high. Mingo I did not like at all. I just saw a guy with a lot of potential that was never a difference maker. Pushed around and didnt really have the hand strength nor technique to keep defenders off of him. I understand he is being asked to fill a different role but I just didnt see a first round guy.
I have to admit the late round pass rusher has me more intrigued than Mingo.
j/c Kruger performed at his best last season once there was a dominant pass rusher opposite him that teams had to account for. Sheard could become that guy but that is still an unknown at this point. Mingo also could be that player and given his athletic skills it is not far fetched that he could be more impactful in pass rush than Sheard. With Mingo and Sheard on the roster there is an increased likelihood that this defense can get the production it is seeking from Kruger.
Quote: First post on this board. Many years on Browns Chat...
I didn't like the pick when it occurred, since wasn't top priority area of need in my book. Trying to let it grow on me. Hope the intent is to use him as an outside LB and he can improve run tackling. At his current configuration, my fear is he'll get trucked by big RBs and forklifted by experienced linemen. But I gotta admit, his speed looks awesome on the highlight reels.
Welcome to the board, Nuke.
My guess: the powers that be saw more of a need for a pressure pass rush than DB. It could be that they are from the camp that believes pressure takes some of the weight off DB's, OR maybe they see something in the guys we already have that make them feel they can work with.
From my POV, BOTH were needs, after seeing our sporadic pass rush last year.
Either spoy being addressed was going to be fine with me, so I wasn't upset at the Mingo selection at all, even though I knew we still needed SOME kind of answer at DB.
Maybe they didn't see more of a need for a pressure pass rush than DB, but they had Mingo rated higher as a player than Milliner and they were strictly thinking BPA. Maybe Milliner's 5 surgeries was a factor. And instead of reaching for the next best CB they went with who they thought was BPA.
Quote: Dee Milliner missed one game in his collegiate career and Saban said he could have played if needed.
5 frickin' surgeries though. I just don't think that should be taken lightly.
not picking on you but... has anyone ever found out exactly what his surgeries are for?
i mean there is a difference between a scope and a shredded acl/mcl
I had to have surgery 2 years ago to remove a splinter because the doctors or anyone else could get it out and it got infected. They put me under for it and everything.
Milliner played his junior year with a torn labrum and had surgery following the season, his fifth career surgery. The other surgeries: right knee scope, sports hernia, right tibia stress fracture and another shoulder surgery.
The only safe pick for us I thought were - Warmack, Cooper n Eifert.
Millner was to be a sure top 5 pick - the injuries did drop him. Skill wise he was the most NFL ready CB bar none. And I'll say this - NFL teams had dropped him a long time ago not due to any rumor stuff...that is the draft nicks just finding out how NFL teams were viewing Millner. Jets had two picks - when you have 9 n 13 you can take that risk nobody else is willing to take cause they got only one pick...us Only 1 pick in top 67 prospects.
Also I believe Lombardi n crew felt very comfortable with several Mid round CBs n thought it had good depth.
Mingo - I started mentioning in my Ansah/Jordan/Mingo cause his name started popping up a lot. But I didn't really consider him cause I was sure one of the first two would be available. Possibly they had Jordan ahead of Mingo? Possibly they had Mingo ahead of Ansah???
Amazing Positive: Cannot express the importance n UNIQUE skill set Mingo has with a rare fist step - explosion n speed of it.
Disappointing Negative: Tackling skills - would get there on RBs...but the RB way too often would through the tackles with hardly any disruption in their gate at all. I only saw 2-3 game tapes but I didn't see that killer animal explosion into his tackles. Inside he was trying to tackle with his hands (not even arms).
Summary: We got the strength n conditioning guy...we got excellent coaches. If he is willing to work hard at it n has no fear...he will be great. If that tackling negative is due to some innate fear...it will not be good. But what real defensive football player has fear? Likelihood of that is pretty slim if you ask me. He's not a WR right? lol
I really don't think the surgeries played much of a role in him dropping. What did him in was not having the potential that the first overall cornerback drafted usually has. He doesn't have the pure shutdown potential that Peterson, Claiborne, or even Gilmore have. He'll almost certainly be solid because he's so polished (and probably make a few Pro Bowls), but he's never going to be elite.
If the team wanted and needed to win right now, they would have selected Milliner IMO (because he plays the position of need). But being that they're in it for the long haul, Mingo was the right pick. He has the potential you want with a top 10 pick.
Milliner played his junior year with a torn labrum and had surgery following the season, his fifth career surgery. The other surgeries: right knee scope, sports hernia, right tibia stress fracture and another shoulder surgery.
Quote: j/c He also studied at the Moscow (Russia) Sports Institute during the summers of 1985 and 1986,
About the time " Rocky IV" was popular. Hmm, hmmmm, wonder how that went.
And I'm not talking about drugs, I'm talking about the cold war. They probably didn't show those american movies in Moscow. ( Rocky IV, Spies like us, Firefox, ). Carry on.
That time was actually the beginning of the end of the Soviet Union. I'm not sure any of the political upheaval found its way to USSR athletic federations that quickly. But I suspect Roll got exposed to some old school strongman training techniques (body weight,kettlebells, etc.) while he was over there.
I did not have Mingo in my top 30 players and I even had a late 2nd early 3rd round grade on him because he really has poor hand technique. Guys with poor hand usage and projected as a pass rusher generally do not do well in the NFL. They just dont have the talent to add different moves to their repertoire.
This pick imho has total bust written all over it but, he does however have several things going for him that could change it into a boom. Right system, excellent teacher of technique, Freakish athleticism, he is a smart kid that likes to work.
There are some bad picks but more often it is good players in bad situations that leads to bust. I really love the situation that he is coming into. The defense has good chemistry together and now they have a Buddy Ryan type of motivator for the unit.
He gets to go against Joe Thomas every day in practice and he has good players all around him. Kruger, Sheard, DQ, Robertson, Bryant, Winn, Taylor, Rubin, Haden and Ward are very talented. He will also have guys that want his spot if he doesnt show up every day. Sheard isn't gonna lay down and Armonty Bryant looks like Deacon Jones in his youtube video.
If he fails, he was just a very bad choice because everything is set up for him to be successful.
Mingo has pretty violent hands at the line of scrimmage. The way he uses them is raw and unrestrained in a way (sometimes, not all of the time), but I still certainly wouldn't call his hand usage "poor." It's actually way above average for a rookie pass rusher IMO.
I agree with the word "violent" to describe his hands. He can really jolt a blocker. He also has an amazing first step, excellent burst, and almost freak like body bend. I love the way he explodes through his tackles in the backfield, whether the RB or the QB. I also think that he has the raw speed to catch most RB in the backfield if he gets a clear path type lane to them. He also has an uncanny ability to change directions seemingly without losing speed.
I am feeling better and better about this kid the more I watch of his play. He got shoved into a contain role frequently, which I think wasted his talents ..... but it did show some of his versatility.
I can't wait to see him on our defense getting after opposing QBs.
Quote: he does however have several things going for him that could change it into a boom. Right system, excellent teacher of technique, Freakish athleticism, he is a smart kid that likes to work.
That's exactly how I feel about the pick.I was disappointed at first because I really wanted Milliner, but if ever a kid fit a particular defense, it's Mingo fitting in Hoton's role for him.
I remember watching the Falcons play the Browns at the stadium a few years ago. They had J. Abraham. The guy did not play every down, but when he came in he was a terror. He was always fresh and he went after the QB. That guy gave Joe Thomas more problems than anyone I have ever seen.
I don't see Mingo as an every down player. I do see him coming in and getting after the QB. I think they will keep him fresh and then turn him loose. There will be people complaining because he isn't a 3-down player this coming year, but it's all about production. Guys like Charles Haley, Abraham, Suggs, etc have forged very nice careers as specialists.
I do think Mingo's role will increase over the years, but I think he will still be effective early in his career because he is the right fit for Horton's defense.
Of course not changing our systems is very key as his value could change. But I believe his speed was good enough to college n he did not have a reason to perfect other things. Only the lack of tackling prowess bothers me a little bit.
Mourgrym...see n that is why this is tough, you say 30 something even 2nd 3rd rounder n yet I don't think there was one Web site that came close to agreeing with you. Sometimes we got to let go of OUR PERSONAL RANKINGS based on what? n have to start trusting our Personnel guys rankings. We cannot say any longer that our history demands it. I started trusting Heckert n it is continuing with Banner/Lombardi. I think they did a good to great job. This pick is key n they didn't go SAFE PICK for perception they went for somebody they really liked n by all purposes were in about every sites Top 16 (half). Considering he didn't fit any 4-3 D - but over some years n the conditioning strength increases he'll be able to put his hand down in varied looks.
The key in making this a great pick...have the lead in the 4th quarter!!!
A lot of good post this morning. Just a few thoughts... I can definitely see Mingo initially rotating in, like Aldon Smith was brought along. It hasn't been talked about much but I see examples on tape that he gets good leverage at the POA. I would described his hand use as unrefined or under developed at this point. He does display that ability but not consistently.
What do you guys think? Being responsible for containment as he was at LSU does that somehow lessen the need for a lot of advance hand technique? He wasn't trying to shed and go after the ball so much on those plays.
hand use - not too hard to teach. Also different from hand in dirt right in front of the OT compared with OLB moving around n approaching the OT. More important is his ability to dip his shoulder - the most used hand technique for pass rushers is the chop...n continue the shoulder dip with the chop. Most used cause its virtually unstoppable n every good Pass rusher wants to perfect that move over others. A kid with a first step like Mingo puts him in such a good place as LTs must use those long arms to slow down his outside rush...where the chop comes in...without that quick first step it is less effective.
Then you can learn stage 2 stuff as in the goal would be to get the LT to have his shoulder parallel with the sidelines due to that quick step - this is 101 mistake for an OT it invites for the Inside move as an over commitment to the outside rush. Yes a good wrist slap n inside rush boom SACK. What is great n I've said it several times only cause you cannot teach it n very few have it. Mingo has that unbelievable first step. His willing to learn n work hard has him about as Cannot Miss as it gets as a superior pass rusher. Running...obvious running downs right now I would expect Sheard in there.
Quote: he does however have several things going for him that could change it into a boom. Right system, excellent teacher of technique, Freakish athleticism, he is a smart kid that likes to work.
That's exactly how I feel about the pick.I was disappointed at first because I really wanted Milliner, but if ever a kid fit a particular defense, it's Mingo fitting in Hoton's role for him.
I remember watching the Falcons play the Browns at the stadium a few years ago. They had J. Abraham. The guy did not play every down, but when he came in he was a terror. He was always fresh and he went after the QB. That guy gave Joe Thomas more problems than anyone I have ever seen.
I don't see Mingo as an every down player. I do see him coming in and getting after the QB. I think they will keep him fresh and then turn him loose. There will be people complaining because he isn't a 3-down player this coming year, but it's all about production. Guys like Charles Haley, Abraham, Suggs, etc have forged very nice careers as specialists.
I do think Mingo's role will increase over the years, but I think he will still be effective early in his career because he is the right fit for Horton's defense.
Great post.
I think Mingo will be a rotational player for the next two years. When Sheard's contract runs out (the only edge rusher on the team who's shown evidence of being stout against the running game), I can see Mingo possibly becoming an every-down player.
Tab there is very little independent thought that goes into most of these rankings anymore. I had Burfict as a 6th rounder last year when every site was pimping him as a 1st rounder. I trust my eyes more than I trust a Mayock and Kiper.
Those guys spend to much time trying to convince themselves they are right. Like with Robert Gallery and his short arms should not matter because he has such good feet. My scouting report had him as a guard because of his T-Rex arms. I took more crap for bashing Gallery than a port-a-potty at a chilli cook off.
Elvis Dummerville I had a top 10 ranking on him, loved his hands. Now I was wrong on Demarcus Ware, you called that one. Hopefully you are right on this one. Again, I see many of the tools but I really like pass rushers that can extend to keep the tackles paws at a distance. We will see. Plus you can't help but like a guy that reminds me of the Johny cash song, Boy named Sue. KeKe what was his momma thinking.
Anyway I will put my rankings up against kiper and Mayock any day of the week and whoop their ass on every Sunday lol. Rob Rang is probably my favorite prognosticator.
j/c Being provided with cover by the ' Roethlisberger broke both legs" hoax that popped up today. I feel that what I want to say is far less controversial.
With everything I've been able to read and all the tape I've been able to see on Mingo I'm ready to go on record that I think he will become a star in this league. At sometime within the next three years he'll be viewed in a way similar to Von Miller or JJ Watt.
Mingo is gonna be a stud. I'll admit I was pretty furious when we took him. I looked at the stats and just didnt see a 6th overall pick.
Then I watched the tape...
Not highlights, just game tape. And his 4.5 sacks dont come close to doing him justice. Dude is a beast. I was a huge fan of Dion Jordan and throughout the entire offseason that is who I wanted more than anything. But after watching so much tape on both of them I actually think I like Mingo better. Plays a lot faster and more aggressive. Not to mention that he was VASTLY under-utilized at LSU, and will work much better as a 3-4 LB where he can play in space more. And I find it laughable when people question whether he will be able to do things like drop in cover. Watch his position drills at the combine, dude has fluid hips, athleticism out of this world, and is a basketball player. Once he gets his instincts up he will EXCEL in coverage.
Yes he needs to put on some weight and get a bit stronger but he plays MUCH stronger than he looks. And isnt nearly as bad against the run as people say. I feel like people just hear a "draft expert" say something and just run with it.
Does need to start finishing plays better, but hes young in football years. Cant wait to watch him play.
Yeah he played some safety and corner in high school.
And his athletic measurables from the combine are better than Tyler Eifert's. The #1 TE from the draft and someone he might be covering a lot for some time!
And no I dont think the combine AKA the Underwear Olympics says too much about how they play on the field, but components from those drills like speed, change of direction, ability to turn your hips are all necessary for good coverage skills. And you cant teach athleticism. So there is no excuse for him not to excel in dropping back.
I see pro's and con's with the pick in general, but with that said I could say that with any pick in which the Browns decided to go in any round. I see it like this: Switching from a 3-4 to a 4-3 tells me one thing, the Browns need more DL in order to fill the rotation. It's a numbers game and it sounds like Mingo can fill a role which is needed for the Browns to make the transition to the 4-3 scheme. Injuries happen to people at any given time be it prior or after the pick so I personally don't need to nit pick but can understand the move because he was a major need position wise for the Browns to achieve their goal in making the 4-3 transition. I see him right now as an able body to fill a rotation role for the Browns since he is not going to be a full time player on the DL nor will anyone else, but his position is a need in the rotation. Time will tell if he will succeed or fail, it is a wait and see process for me, but overall I see it as at least a "fill in the blank" move. He has the skill set, now how he adapts and produces is wait and see for me. I can only hope for the best in the overall grand scheme of the Browns goal and wish him the best.
Quote: I see pro's and con's with the pick in general, but with that said I could say that with any pick in which the Browns decided to go in any round. I see it like this: Switching from a 3-4 to a 4-3 tells me one thing, the Browns need more DL in order to fill the rotation. It's a numbers game and it sounds like Mingo can fill a role which is needed for the Browns to make the transition to the 4-3 scheme. Injuries happen to people at any given time be it prior or after the pick so I personally don't need to nit pick but can understand the move because he was a major need position wise for the Browns to achieve their goal in making the 4-3 transition. I see him right now as an able body to fill a rotation role for the Browns since he is not going to be a full time player on the DL nor will anyone else, but his position is a need in the rotation. Time will tell if he will succeed or fail, it is a wait and see process for me, but overall I see it as at least a "fill in the blank" move. He has the skill set, now how he adapts and produces is wait and see for me. I can only hope for the best in the overall grand scheme of the Browns goal and wish him the best.
OK, I'm confused .....
The Browns played a 4-3 last year, and are switching to a 3-4 this season. They are stacked at DL, and they did also add their 7th round pick who will play DE as well. (if he is able to make the team)
They added OLB this off-season, in an attempt to fill this vitally important position in the 3-4 defense. They added Kruger. Groves, and Mingo, and have Sheard making the transition to OLB as well. Mingo will play OLB, not DE as he did in college.
Quote: I see pro's and con's with the pick in general, but with that said I could say that with any pick in which the Browns decided to go in any round. I see it like this: Switching from a 3-4 to a 4-3 tells me one thing, the Browns need more DL in order to fill the rotation. It's a numbers game and it sounds like Mingo can fill a role which is needed for the Browns to make the transition to the 4-3 scheme. Injuries happen to people at any given time be it prior or after the pick so I personally don't need to nit pick but can understand the move because he was a major need position wise for the Browns to achieve their goal in making the 4-3 transition. I see him right now as an able body to fill a rotation role for the Browns since he is not going to be a full time player on the DL nor will anyone else, but his position is a need in the rotation. Time will tell if he will succeed or fail, it is a wait and see process for me, but overall I see it as at least a "fill in the blank" move. He has the skill set, now how he adapts and produces is wait and see for me. I can only hope for the best in the overall grand scheme of the Browns goal and wish him the best.
Yeah you are way off on this.
And even though people didnt think we had a need at OLB we did. Kruger and Sheard are both unproven to be star pass rushers. So we definitely didnt draft a player at #6 overall for the sole purpose of adding depth. And definitely not as just another body in case of injuries like is said in this post.
We drafted him to be our star pass rusher. Sure he may be a situational pass rusher in year one, like Aldon Smith and Bruce Irvin, but he will eventually be an every down player.
It is a bit concerning that we only seem to be addressing our pass rush and not our run defense. Kruger is suspect against the run and so is Sheard, not to mention we dont know whether he will transition to the 3-4 well at all. And Mingo isnt as bad against the run as people say, but he isnt a brute yet. Bryant, Rubin, Taylor and DQ, Robertson, JMJ are gonna be asked to carry the load in the run game.
I might have confused people some because I still consider last year part of the transition period, the start, but I see him as being able to do both DE/OLB, well I hope which is a good thing but I see him as if he is going to be part of the rotation, I just don't want to see him over used in situations that are not warranted, ie... third and one, he may but until he actually plays a game or two we as fans will not know the full extent of how he will be utilized. I just don't want to label him just yet as a true LB that could just be "talk" right now and it will continue until we get to see him in action. I hope I clarified my comments.
Quote: I might have confused people some because I still consider last year part of the transition period, the start, but I see him as being able to do both DE/OLB, well I hope which is a good thing but I see him as if he is going to be part of the rotation, I just don't want to see him over used in situations that are not warranted, ie... third and one, he may but until he actually plays a game or two we as fans will not know the full extent of how he will be utilized. I just don't want to label him just yet as a true LB that could just be "talk" right now and it will continue until we get to see him in action. I hope I clarified my comments.
No I think your a little confused haha. We are transitioning from a 4-3 to a 3-4. Last year we didnt change our defense at all, we have been a 4-3 since Mangina left.
Regardless, none of that matters. All that matter is that we are going to be a 3-4 and he will play OLB, so yes he will be a "true" OLB. Thats not speculation. He will not be able to play DE in our base 3-4 package because 3-4 DE are not the same as 4-3 DE. 3-4 DE are more similar to DTs than 4-3 DEs.
He will probably play some DE in our sub-packages on 3rd down and obvious passing downs, where the DE is told to rush the passer.
You were saying that we are switching to a 4-3 and need more DL which is not the case. We are absolutely set at DL especially since we are switching to the 3-4.
To each their own brother. The Browns were not a true 4-3 last year, we didn't have the depth, is that debatable? Sure, but until the transition is complete, which it isn't I don't find the need to debate it. I would like for the D to be able to do both, play a 4-3 or 3-4 when needed and think Mingo gives us a good opportunity to do so. We all see things different and I can respect any opinion, I just am not going to flat out say your confused. We all want the same thing, a winner, how the team gets there is how players fill the role. If I am wrong so be it, I care about wins, no matter who does what and how. I don't argue with other fans nor will I ever try and label them since I hope we all want the same outcome and that is to win. Call me whatever you want but I am only a fan, as I hope you are as well.
Didnt mean to offend you or anything. But in your post you said that we were confused about what you said. So I just said you were confused haha. No harm intended.
But as far as our base defensive set, there's not really an argument there. Just concrete fact haha. Ray Horton has come out and said our base D will be 3-4. And pretty much every move we have made in the offseason was done to run that D. Of course we will have multiple fronts/sub packages but our base package is going to be 3-4. Like our base package was 4-3 last year. I guess I'm just confused as to what alignment you saw us running.
Hate to be a jerk, but guys--you are both a bit off.
We did play a true 4-3 last year.
We are NOT strictly playing a 3-4 this year. Horton has been very clear that he is going to have 3 man fronts, 4 man fronts, and even 5 man fronts. His philosophy is to have multiple fronts.
Quote: Hate to be a jerk, but guys--you are both a bit off.
We did play a true 4-3 last year.
We are NOT strictly playing a 3-4 this year. Horton has been very clear that he is going to have 3 man fronts, 4 man fronts, and even 5 man fronts. His philosophy is to have multiple fronts.
Carry on........
Yeah I said we played a 4-3 last year. And I said that our base defense this year will be a 3-4, but I know he wants to use multiple fronts/sub packages.
Anyways this conversation is pointless. Theres nothing to debate on this topic haha.
I don't see you being a jerk, I agree. I want to see the Browns being able to do both, if they can, they can confuse an offense at any given point. I agree with your points. I might not word things correctly all the time, I am new here and I apologize if I sound confusing but that is on me since I need to work on wording my thoughts properly. I am nothing more then a fan, if I was better then that I wouldn't be posting on a forum, but running a team, LOL.
Quote: I don't see you being a jerk, I agree. I want to see the Browns being able to do both, if they can, they can confuse an offense at any given point. I agree with your points. I might not word things correctly all the time, I am new here and I apologize if I sound confusing but that is on me since I need to work on wording my thoughts properly. I am nothing more then a fan, if I was better then that I wouldn't be posting on a forum, but running a team, LOL.
Dont worry about it Im new here too.
And yeah I completely agree, being able to use multiple fronts will be great. And we will definitely be able to considering we have a lot of our personnel from last year's 4-3. Plus Mingo and Kruger who can both play DE along with Sheard. Our D should be good. I look forward to seeing Flacco, Ben and Dalton on their asses a lot
It is all good my fellow Browns fan, I take nothing personal, I dig the insight I have seen on this forum and love the Browns, but it looks like we are all in a way on the same page and wish nothing more then the best for the Browns. My care is wins over losses not size or weight. I just want a winner no matter who plays what position and how they achieve their role. Just bring us a winner.
So was Horton feeding us a line with the "we will be a multi-front attacking defense"stuff? I thought he was being honest. Guess we'll find out just how "multi" our front is come August.
New Browns defensive coordinator Ray Horton made a definitive statement Thursday during an interview with Arizona radio station XTRA Sports 910-AM.
Horton said he will run a 3-4 defense in Cleveland.
“It won’t be a hybrid, not unless we’re playing golf,” said Horton, who served as the Arizona Cardinals’ defensive coordinator the past two seasons. “It’ll be a 3-4. It’ll be the same defense we ran here [in Arizona].”
The Browns used a 4-3 scheme the past two seasons under defensive coordinator Dick Jauron. But Horton said the Browns’ new defensive system will mirror that of the Pittsburgh Steelers, who he spent seven seasons with as a defensive backs coach.
Browns coach Rob Chudzinski reiterated Thursday night during the Greater Cleveland Sports Awards that his team will use 3-4 and 4-3 alignments.
“We’re going to do both,” Chudzinski said. “We’re going to have packages where we do both of those.”
However, four-man fronts might be seldom used by the Browns.
After all, Browns owner Jimmy Haslam also said Thursday night he expects Horton to bring a 3-4 scheme to Cleveland. Haslam bought a minority stake in the Steelers in 2008, so he’s familiar with Horton and the type of defense he wants to run.
“Of course, we knew him from the Steelers and when we interviewed him for this job, [he was] fired up, intense,” Haslam said. “I think he’ll relate extremely well to players. I think the players will like him. Probably we’ll switch to the 3-4 defense. I think it’ll be an attacking defense.
“I think he told me in Phoenix with the Arizona Cardinals that he blitzed more than anybody in the league except for the Houston Texans. So I think it’ll be exciting and fun to watch. He’s really excited about the players we have here. We need to add one or two to really round out the team. But I think you’ll like him as a person and like him as a coach.”
Horton is expected to meet with the media Tuesday at the Browns’ headquarters in Berea, Haslam said.
If we run 3 DL, with a LB blitzing, is that a 3 or a 4 man front? How about if we bring the OLB down on to the line to blitz? What about if we bring both OLB to the line, and bring them both? Is that a 3 man front, or a 5 man front?
I think that Horton will bring anywhere from 3 to 6 players on any given play. Whether that's called a 3, 4, 5, or 6 man front is really irrelevant.
First off, we can point to what Horton has done in ARZ but we are yet to see one snap of that scheme ran by the Brown's. In that sense it's an unkown. I speculate that what YTown described is pretty close to what we'll see.
I don't think the front will be as stagnant as your usual 4-3 or other versions of the 3-4 that we've seen before. Just looking at the personnel the team has put together, a lot of guys with different strengths. Finding different ways to combine and align those skills would only aid the attacking style we've been told to expect.
As an aside, I saw a blog post on Dawgs by Nature about a "Rain" bliz that the LeBeau style 3-4 has been know to use. If I can figure out how to get that over here (Pure Football) without violating any board rules it would give us something concrete to talk about.
Quote: All of this stuff is really just semantics.
If we run 3 DL, with a LB blitzing, is that a 3 or a 4 man front? How about if we bring the OLB down on to the line to blitz? What about if we bring both OLB to the line, and bring them both? Is that a 3 man front, or a 5 man front?
I think that Horton will bring anywhere from 3 to 6 players on any given play. Whether that's called a 3, 4, 5, or 6 man front is really irrelevant.
Technically if there are 3 down lineman and 4 LBs, no matter who blitzes and who is on the line it is a 3-4. And if there are 4 down lineman then its a 4-3.
We will most likely just run what he ran in Zona which is a 3-4. Along with the sub-packages that come along with that of course. I dont doubt that we could see different fronts but I think it will be very rare. Considering how many new front-7 players we have acquired to run the 3-4, Im sure that is what we will be running the vast majority of the time.
But who cares, either way our defense should be much better just because of the new defensive coordinator, let alone the new personnel we got. And it will DEFINITELY be a lot more fun to watch. Same with the offense.
Nothing is more vanilla than Dick Jauron's defense and a West Coast Offense called by Pat Shurmur! Haha
Even if the Browns arent as improved as I expect them to be, at least they will be more entertaining to watch.
He did object to the media telling him he is running a Hybrid Defense... ergo his comments stated from the get go.
It did come across to be contradicting to what Chud had said so he soon did feel a need to clarify what his defense would look like. I don't think this was towing the company Line - due to film of Zona defense he did utilized different fronts.
Now what I think he meant by Hybrid vs 3-4.
He runs strictly a 3-4 Defense in the sense of PERSONNEL. (not including special situations as Short Yardage or Nickel n Dime) .
But I think he also wanted all to know he will definitely line this 3-4 Personnel (3 DL n 4 LB) in different looks. Why he said he likes Kruger n Sheard (hopefully Mingo after he gains his weight) cause they are both versatile to step up to the DL n put their hands down as well as playing the basic 3-4 OLB. It was specifically why I was pimping Ziggy at 270+ strong.
so we will break our huddle without a major change of personnel standing in our traditional 3-4 then as the O settles in...we will change our look to a 2-4-5 man front pre-snap well that 2 man front probably would be on the snap having a DE dropping back??? Zone Blitz?
So Horton pffft the notion he would run a Hybrid D. Then pretty much fortified his multi-front D coming from the 3-4 base.
Hope all this makes sense...lol We will not know for 100% certainty till we actually see our D & I think it might not be seen until game 1...Preseason I don't think he's going to show our true looks.
Quote: ,,,who really cares what we are technically running. As long as it works and puts some Qbs on their asses.
But it is fun trying to figure it out and understand how it works. That helps in understanding which type of player will be doing what. It also makes watching the games a lot more fun than simply "following the ball" on game day.
Quote: No need to get agitated, Heldawg is just posting what he's read/heard from our DC.
What makes you think I was agitated? I wasn't agitated at all. I am just looking to make an easy buck.
I have already provided articles on this board that quoted both Horton and Chud REPEATEDLY saying that we would run a defense that features multiple fronts. 3-4, 4-3, 5-2.
You want in on this? And no, I am not agitated in the slightest.
Quote: But yeah its just semantics, who really cares what we are technically running. As long as it works and puts some Qbs on their asses.
Well, there are a lot of people around here who care. If we get rid of the "we are strictly running a 3-4" argument, it will take some of the ammunition away from the group that wants to bash the new FO for every move they make.
One thing is for sure he needs to get ALLOT BIGGER AND STRONGER....he looks like a damn saftey.......just dont understand this pick......should have taken millner, D.J hayden or trufaunt.........in my opinion the risk of mingo being a bust is close to 50%......way to much for a 1st round pick. Hope im wrong.....
tab, here are some quotes from Ray Horton's press conference w/Chud in attendance:
Quote: (Opening statement)- “Thanks Coach. First off all, I’d like to say I’m excited to be here in Cleveland. I’d like to thank Mr. (Jimmy) Haslam, Mr. (Joe) Banner and Mr. (Michael) Lombardi for the opportunity to come here and be a part of Coach Rob’s (Chudzinski) team. What are we? I don’t really care what we are on defense. I want to know, what are we going to look like? We’re going to look like an aggressive, forward attacking defense that has big men that can run and little men that can hit. I’ve seen that on tape and that’s the most important thing to me is what do we look like, not what we line up in. We may be a 3-4 on one snap. We may be a 4-3 on another snap. I guarantee we’ll be a 5-2 sometimes and we’ll be a 4-4 sometimes. We are a multi-front, attacking defense and that’s the most important thing, not what player lines up where, how he stands, what stance he’s in.
and
Quote: (On how much of an overhaul he has to do to the defense to turn it into a 3-4)- “Going back, I use the word multiple front. Coach Rob uses hybrid. They’re the same term. They’re just different semantics of language. We are going to be a defense that gives offenses problems. Our guys can play a multitude of things. I don’t like to get pigeonholed into, ‘Well, he is this.’ Here’s what we’re going to be. We’re going to be a team that looks at the offense and tries to take away what they do best. Now, that may mean one snap being a 5-2. The next snap it may be a 4-4. It will be predicated by what the offense does and we have athletes that can stand up, that can put their hand in the ground and that can run. That’s why I go back to the multi-front defense. I can’t tell you what we’re going to be right now, it depends on who we line up game one against. What do they do? What do we need to take away? The thing I’m most excited about is I have a group of athletes that can run and hit and they’re not limited to just saying, ‘Coach, line me up in a specific front, number system and play.’ Just run and hit.”
and
Quote: (On if his defense will really be a mirror image of Pittsburgh)- “I didn’t say that, I don’t believe. This will be a mirror image of Coach Rob and his wishes, his likes and his desires of having a multi-front, attacking defense. I’m not sure what Pittsburgh is. I know what we will be.”
and
Quote: On if the Cardinals’ high interception total last year was because of the players or the because of the defensive scheme)- “It’s a by-product of both. Understanding what the players can do best and putting them in the position. That’s why I go back to, I’ll use Coach Rob’s term, a hybrid of what do you do best? It’s what they do best and sometimes it's a 4-4, sometimes it’s a 3-4, sometimes it’s a 4-3. I think that’s one of the things that I do well is I let the players tell me what to do because they will by how they play, how they react, what they do on the field, what they do in the meeting room. I like to be malleable where I’m not so rigid that this is it, this is the only way to do it. You’ve got to be flexible and let your players tell you what they do best in the certain forms of how they tell you.”
and
Quote: (On how much of his attacking defense is purely blitzing)- “It goes back to Coach Rob, again, with what his desires are, first of all and then this hybrid defense. I bring a lot. I bring little guys, the corners, they blitz. I bring big guys, I drop big guys into coverage and that’s what Coach Rob is saying in this – as he’s prepared for defenses, this hybrid of, ‘What are you looking at?’ We’re a little bit different. We bring little guys because they can run and they can hit. I bring big guys and I drop big guys because they can run. I’ve got the perfect mix here of big guys that can run and little guys that can hit.”
I think it's pretty daggone clear. Chud is the HC. Horton is the defensive coordinator. We WILL BE RUNNING A DEFENSE THAT HAS MULTIPLE FRONTS. GUARANTEED.
Here is the link to the entire article. It is worth reading.
Quote: One thing is for sure he needs to get ALLOT BIGGER AND STRONGER....he looks like a damn saftey.......just dont understand this pick......should have taken millner, D.J hayden or trufaunt.........in my opinion the risk of mingo being a bust is close to 50%......way to much for a 1st round pick. Hope im wrong.....
He needs to get a little stronger, I wouldn't say "A LOT STRONGER". Have you watched him on film? Or are you just basing this off how he looks?
Because from what I've seen on tape he plays a lot stronger than he looks. I watched him power rush D.J. Fluker right in the chest, and push him 7 yards into the backfield, causing McCarron to flush out of the pocket. And D.J. is a big man. And 1st round pick.
I feel like people just look at him and assume he's weak. But when you watch him on tape he plays strong.
Yes we are running a 34 and yes if you want to bet I bet eleventy billion dollars.
You sure get agitated quick these days.
I'll just leave it at this.
Chud in a press conference was getting a line of questioning that dealt with Dick Jauron and the 43 and Horton and the 34. It was concerning the switch and he tried to soften things by calling it a hybrid front.
Horton, while talking with Arizona radio guys he was comfortable with, said that its not a hybrid. I tend to believe Horton here.
I believe it was embarrassing to Chud and once they got together in front of the media you could tell that they were now singing for the same songsheet.
Now the nature of pittsburgh's 34 is that they rush four players up the field most of the time. Who that fourth guy is is the basis of their zone blitz scheme. They also drop DLs into zones at odd times and they'll throw both ILBers into the A gaps at times.
But they never to my recollection put 5 DL onto the field outside of a goal line or inches scenario. Nor do they rip DEs off the field on anything but an outlier scenario.
So get used to 3 DL and 4 LB on 90% of defensive plays. Will Sheard slide into a DE position on obvious passing downs. I think that's plausible to get him, Krueger and Mingo on the field together.
But yes we're running a 34 this year and don't kid yourself otherwise.
Milliner at this point is not even a Joe Haden talent. With that being said...is he not worth the 6th pick either??? I think not. Milliner will be solid and that's all he will ever be. Mingo is rare!!!
Quote: Milliner at this point is not even a Joe Haden talent. With that being said...is he not worth the 6th pick either??? I think not. Milliner will be solid and that's all he will ever be. Mingo is Arare!!!
I completely agree. The consensus was that Milliner was the best corner in this draft, but you notice they never talked about him as being a special corner, like a Claiborne or Peterson. He was just the best in this draft. If he was THAT great, he would have been taken far before 9.
I wanted him for awhile, but after watching some tape on him I didnt see anything special. He has good size and speed, but those Bama corners often dont translate as well to the NFL because at Bama all they do is play press man. Milliner has trouble back peddling. And his hands are awful. 22 pass break ups and 2 INTs? Come on. Bad ball skills.
The idea behind Mingo is, why draft a corner and make 1 more secondary spot better, when you can draft a pass rusher and make the entire secondary better with a good front-7.
After a QB the most important position is pass rusher. Especially these days.
I also think Mingo will be a special player. Theres just something about him when you watch him on film. Its hard to describe. But he plays so fast and violent. A lot of players you will see run a 4.6 40 yard dash, but it doesnt translate that well to the field. Like Dion Jordan. He runs fast in a straight line but he doesnt play quite as fast on film IMO. Mingo plays much faster and more violently. Fun to watch.
Quote: One thing is for sure he needs to get ALLOT BIGGER AND STRONGER....he looks like a damn saftey.......just dont understand this pick......should have taken millner, D.J hayden or trufaunt.........in my opinion the risk of mingo being a bust is close to 50%......way to much for a 1st round pick. Hope im wrong.....
First ,he can only put on so much weight before it slows him down, and any weight gain will come over years and be gradual. The Browns coveted Mingo, because he brings as aspect that no one else on the defense does. He's an elite athlete. He may not be an elite pass rusher at the moment, , but his athleticism and natural ability allow them to do things in the defense they wouldn't be able to with him in it. Mingo has the athleticism as a speed rusher or even drop deep in coverage. They believe he's a difference maker in the scheme.
Quote: Yes we are running a 34 and yes if you want to bet I bet eleventy billion dollars.
You sure get agitated quick these days.
I'll just leave it at this.
Chud in a press conference was getting a line of questioning that dealt with Dick Jauron and the 43 and Horton and the 34. It was concerning the switch and he tried to soften things by calling it a hybrid front.
Horton, while talking with Arizona radio guys he was comfortable with, said that its not a hybrid. I tend to believe Horton here.
I believe it was embarrassing to Chud and once they got together in front of the media you could tell that they were now singing for the same songsheet.
Now the nature of pittsburgh's 34 is that they rush four players up the field most of the time. Who that fourth guy is is the basis of their zone blitz scheme. They also drop DLs into zones at odd times and they'll throw both ILBers into the A gaps at times.
But they never to my recollection put 5 DL onto the field outside of a goal line or inches scenario. Nor do they rip DEs off the field on anything but an outlier scenario.
So get used to 3 DL and 4 LB on 90% of defensive plays. Will Sheard slide into a DE position on obvious passing downs. I think that's plausible to get him, Krueger and Mingo on the field together.
But yes we're running a 34 this year and don't kid yourself otherwise.
I agree with most of what you said. Horton's FIRST comments were that has no hybrid and it's a 3-4. His Arizona defensive stat of running a 4-man front on 5% of the plays in 2012 (profootballfocus.com stat and stated in a Terry Pluto article) allude to those first comments and support your opinion. Will we see some four or five fronts? The odds are that we will. Not many though if we go simply on Norton's 2012 season in Arizona. I think some comments are confusing regarding the frequency of multiple fronts as in we will see somewhat of an even distribution of formations. Again, I don't think its gonna be even close.
The wild card here is what Chud wants. If he's told Horton that he demands to see more diversity in that regard, then we'll see if that happens. However, I also lean on the assumption that Chud is giving Horton close to full reign on this defensive approach. But that's just me.
In the end, we will see how many multiple fronts we'll see but I'm guessing the 3-4 will be run nearly 90% of plays next year. Maybe more.
Thanks for putting that out there again...mostly for the others cause I remembered that presser. Why I said above:
"It did come across to be contradicting to what Chud had said so he soon did feel a need to clarify what his defense would look like. I don't think this was towing the company Line - due to film of Zona defense he did utilized different fronts."
He just objected to the term Hybrid...possibly in the football world that would mean something different (very small) in the utilization of different fronts. His initial statements insisting he will be utilizing a 3-4 D I think meant the PERSONNEL for his different fronts. Yes Horton has a clear vision of what his Defense will be. Chud is the HC n can tell/request certain things from Horton usually that is the beginning of the end unless they have a prior working relationship (like Mangini n Ryan as he laid into Ryan a couple of times).
But I think Horton definitely is bringing to the Browns what Chud wants...Attack with multiple looks...Horton looks to be covering both not because of CHUD but because that is WHO HE IS...why its a good match!
We pretty much are in full agreement...not sure how he will do the multiple fronts...change personnel??? I doubt it cause the NFL O's are doing a lot of no huddle quick sets so that D cannot change personnel. So what my explanation was is my thoughts on how it will be brought to us. The multiple front thing is a Given Fact n not Horton surrendering to Chud...All Horton as per my quote above. Was subtle about that but if you re read that it was what I meant...lol
Maybe it's just me, but i am not all that concerned about his weight.
Naturally there are certain limits as to how light he can be, but he isn't a bull rusher, so I don't think playing at 235-240 is a major concern.
I agree. I'm not that concerned but I would still like to see him put in weight. I think he could play comfortably at 250 without losing speed and explosion. 235 is too small for the run game.
But like I have said, he plays stronger than people give him credit for. People always equate weight to strength. That's not always the case. Weight isn't the problem for NFL players, it's strength. You can be 240 lbs but still have the strength to shed 300lb lineman.
I'm just not concerned that he can't put on weight. I think he will comfortably put on weight easily. He may never be 270lbs but that's not his game.
Quote: One thing is for sure he needs to get ALLOT BIGGER AND STRONGER....he looks like a damn saftey.......just dont understand this pick......should have taken millner, D.J hayden or trufaunt.........in my opinion the risk of mingo being a bust is close to 50%......way to much for a 1st round pick. Hope im wrong.....
He needs to get a little stronger, I wouldn't say "A LOT STRONGER". Have you watched him on film? Or are you just basing this off how he looks?
Because from what I've seen on tape he plays a lot stronger than he looks. I watched him power rush D.J. Fluker right in the chest, and push him 7 yards into the backfield, causing McCarron to flush out of the pocket. And D.J. is a big man. And 1st round pick.
I feel like people just look at him and assume he's weak. But when you watch him on tape he plays strong.
Yes i knew who he was coming out of college and yes i have watched film on him since we drafted him. Would like to see him add some serious bulk.....like i said he kinda looks like a safety playing DE to me.....
Maybe it's just me, but i am not all that concerned about his weight.
Naturally there are certain limits as to how light he can be, but he isn't a bull rusher, so I don't think playing at 235-240 is a major concern.
It's not just you, I'm certain the two of us have expressed similar thoughts on this subject before.
Even though he didn't have big sack numbers over his career at LSU, 15 total I think, his ability to play his contain responsibilities in their defense and do it well, demonstrates he has considerable strength.
Quote: One thing is for sure he needs to get ALLOT BIGGER AND STRONGER....he looks like a damn saftey.......just dont understand this pick......should have taken millner, D.J hayden or trufaunt.........in my opinion the risk of mingo being a bust is close to 50%......way to much for a 1st round pick. Hope im wrong.....
He needs to get a little stronger, I wouldn't say "A LOT STRONGER". Have you watched him on film? Or are you just basing this off how he looks?
Because from what I've seen on tape he plays a lot stronger than he looks. I watched him power rush D.J. Fluker right in the chest, and push him 7 yards into the backfield, causing McCarron to flush out of the pocket. And D.J. is a big man. And 1st round pick.
I feel like people just look at him and assume he's weak. But when you watch him on tape he plays strong.
Yes i knew who he was coming out of college and yes i have watched film on him since we drafted him. Would like to see him add some serious bulk.....like i said he kinda looks like a safety playing DE to me.....
It doesn't matter what he looks like, it matters how he plays. And if you think he plays like a safety at DE then I seriously doubt you've seen him play.
Unless there are a bunch of 6'4 240lb safeties walkin around who you have seen push a 6'5 340lb tackle 8 yards into the backfield. And that tackle just so happens to be a first round pick.
If this was a body building competition then he would lose. We got him because of his speed and athleticism. Not his physique. Sure he could use some more size, but putting on weight is the least of his worries. He will get bigger.
He needs to focus on polishing his pass rush skills and finishing more plays. I saw him leave a lot of sacks on the field. Even though he usually gave other a chance to make the play.
I have had no iteration with either poster (Slick or Mac) but I wont. Why? Just by reading their comments they come across uneducated and just look for faults. I ignore them since they are not worth the time. People are like that, I call them the get a life group. Complain, whine, and moan which seems to work for them, but when the Browns become a winner they will most likely change their tune, which I think they will, they will shut their mouth.
Options are one thing, looking for faults in posts tells me they need a clue or job. Ignore them, their reads are useless IMO.
They hate to hate and that is their mental state. Ignore that.
Read my post above. I can't take you serious since your not in the position to do so. You are a fan, if not you wouldn't be posting on a forum. I can respect opinions all day long your a hater in my book, so educate yourself before you post. IMO you have no clue about the game and hope you prove me wrong. Go Browns!
I'm surprised that Dion Jordan was getting so much hype for the draft. I feel like nobody really knew who he was before the combine. Oregon has had plenty of nationally televised games the past few years and he has never been talked about. Because he never really jumps out on tape (besides seeing a 6'6 dude standing up all the time lol).
I watch a ton of college football and honestly I really didnt know about this dude until the combine. I've seen plenty of Oregon games and this guy never seemed to catch my attention.
Which is definitely not the case for Mingo. His name was constantly being called during games and everyone knew who he was. I remember watching him dominate the bowl game vs Clemson this year. Anyone who wants to see a show, go watch the tape of that game!
I think Jordan had a better high light tape. I had him just behind Ziggy for us but Mingo's game tape is the best of the 3 - discipline to the game plans n worked well within what was asked. He gets a little physical...great! Looking forward to see him progress.
Quote: I think Jordan had a better high light tape. I had him just behind Ziggy for us but Mingo's game tape is the best of the 3 - discipline to the game plans n worked well within what was asked. He gets a little physical...great! Looking forward to see him progress.
I am looking forward to training camp opening when we can start talking about what we saw rather than what we think we will see.
Quote: I think Jordan had a better high light tape. I had him just behind Ziggy for us but Mingo's game tape is the best of the 3 - discipline to the game plans n worked well within what was asked. He gets a little physical...great! Looking forward to see him progress.
Really? I think Ziggy is going to be a bust. From the tape I have watched of him he looks very unnatural, which does kind of make sense since he is so new to football. But he runs around straight up and just looks awkward out there. I was not impressed with his tape at all.
I think Mingo by far has the best tape. He plays much faster and more aggressive than the other 2. I do agree that Jordan may have better highlight tape though. But I think that has to do with the fact that he was utilized much better than Mingo. He was put all over the place and brought on different blitzes and stunts that gave him better chances to get to the QB.
Also I think Jordan was better at arriving at the QB under control. Mingo left a lot of sacks and TFLs on the field, so when he gets that down he will be a killer.
Quote: I think Jordan had a better high light tape. I had him just behind Ziggy for us but Mingo's game tape is the best of the 3 - discipline to the game plans n worked well within what was asked. He gets a little physical...great! Looking forward to see him progress.
I am looking forward to training camp opening when we can start talking about what we saw rather than what we think we will see.
Yeah this is the most hyped I've been about Browns season for awhile. Can't wait until the home opener!
I agree on Ansah. I was so happy when the Lions grabbed him ahead of us.
I do think that it will be interesting to see how he does on a Lions team with pretty considerable talent on the interior of their DL. With Suh and Fairly in the middle of the DL for the Lions, Ansah should see a lot of one on one blocking. If he busts, it won't be because he went to a team devoid of talent beside him, and it won't be because he faced constant double teams. .
Quote: I agree on Ansah. I was so happy when the Lions grabbed him ahead of us.
I do think that it will be interesting to see how he does on a Lions team with pretty considerable talent on the interior of their DL. With Suh and Fairly in the middle of the DL for the Lions, Ansah should see a lot of one on one blocking. If he busts, it won't be because he went to a team devoid of talent beside him, and it won't be because he faced constant double teams. .
Good point. He will be seeing nothing but 1 on 1s with tackles. Plus I think he will be better with his hand in the ground. He didnt seem to get much burst at BYU when standing and it will probably help him stay lower.
But the talent he faced could also be troublesome. He played some scrubs! Haha
Which is another reason i feel better about Mingo. He played against some of the best Olines in the country on a consistent basis. I think that drafting defense from the SEC is always the way to go.
Not going to debate you all on Ansah...the draft is over n he's on another team...thank goodness in another Conference. Your thoughts are possible bust my thoughts were he was perfect for what Horton was building here. To say either as a certainty is futile as it will be time to tell. But I'm sure if a bust I'll get a "I TOLD YOU SO" lol feel free I'll man up to it I'm just happy he didn't go to Steelers, Ravens or Bengals phew!
Peen...yeah I can't wait. But I'm at the stage of life where time goes by too fast. So I will definitely wait.
Quote: Not going to debate you all on Ansah...the draft is over n he's on another team...thank goodness in another Conference. Your thoughts are possible bust my thoughts were he was perfect for what Horton was building here. To say either as a certainty is futile as it will be time to tell. But I'm sure if a bust I'll get a "I TOLD YOU SO" lol feel free I'll man up to it I'm just happy he didn't go to Steelers, Ravens or Bengals phew!
Peen...yeah I can't wait. But I'm at the stage of life where time goes by too fast. So I will definitely wait.
I'm more worried about Jarvis Jones on the Steelers than I would be Ziggy in the division to be honest.
Plus I don't think he would fit our system, I don't think he fits as a LB at all. He is probably in the best situation for himself.
And no I won't give you the I told you so haha. Just my opinions. He could very well end up being a beast, but I just personally don't see it yet.
Jordan had a lot more opportunities to just flat rush the QB at Oregon. Oregon's quick strike O kept their D on the field. Which is also why he was rotated out more. Add the fact that many teams they faced were forced to pass a lot more because they'd be down by 30 points at half time. Where as Mingo played a style more representative of NFL football. This difference made Mingo a more complete player than Jordan. JMHO
Quote: I think it's pretty daggone clear. Chud is the HC. Horton is the defensive coordinator. We WILL BE RUNNING A DEFENSE THAT HAS MULTIPLE FRONTS. GUARANTEED.
Here is a great article that breaks down Horton's defense he ran in Arizona and the many fronts that they employed.
Quote: Jordan had a lot more opportunities to just flat rush the QB at Oregon. Oregon's quick strike O kept their D on the field. Which is also why he was rotated out more. Add the fact that many teams they faced were forced to pass a lot more because they'd be down by 30 points at half time. Where as Mingo played a style more representative of NFL football. This difference made Mingo a more complete player than Jordan. JMHO
Thanks Shark. Not many will read and those that do will ignore and keep insisting that the only defense we'll run this year is a 3-4. It allows them to complain more, which is more important than facts.
So if I have my math straight Rhodes had them in the 34 or their nickel package 96% of the time. The other 3% was in their dime package. And they had 4DL in a jumbo package with 4LB on the field a statistically miniscule 1% of the time.
Seriously what is your deal here???
All teams run a base 43 or 34.
They ran a 43 exactly zero snaps last year.
They pull a DL off the field and insert a DB a very high number of snaps but it's not like the nickle defense is some sort of shockingly new concept.
We run a 34. Say it with me...we run a 34!
He ran a 34 or a 245 with the DEs sliding into 1 technique and 3 tech a full 96% of the time!
I'm not an X and O guy but even I can see that Hortons 3-4 isn't Romeos or Manginis.
If anything, it seems to more resemble the old (bringing back memories here) Romeo Crennels UFO Defense. Things coming at you from everywhere and anywhere. LOL At least that's the way I remember it being explained to be back then..
Quote: I'm not an X and O guy but even I can see that Hortons 3-4 isn't Romeos or Manginis.
If anything, it seems to more resemble the old (bringing back memories here) Romeo Crennels UFO Defense. Things coming at you from everywhere and anywhere. LOL At least that's the way I remember it being explained to be back then..
Not to nitpick, But it is important to properly bestow credit where credit is due. Rob Ryan was the architect of the Browns' amoeba defense. After all, we have no idea, he could be a future HC of this franchise. After all, weirder things have happened. Lombardi is here isn't he?
Quote: I'm not an X and O guy but even I can see that Hortons 3-4 isn't Romeos or Manginis.
If anything, it seems to more resemble the old (bringing back memories here) Romeo Crennels UFO Defense. Things coming at you from everywhere and anywhere. LOL At least that's the way I remember it being explained to be back then..
Not to nitpick, But it is important to properly bestow credit where credit is due. Rob Ryan was the architect of the Browns' amoeba defense. After all, we have no idea, he could be a future HC of this franchise. After all, weirder things have happened. Lombardi is here isn't he?
Maybe I'm wrong but I thought he was referring to the early 2000s when Romeo was our DC and used that defense.
Below you'll find what I was referring to. If you have something from the 2000 season when Crennel was DC for the Browns, with all due respect, please sight it.
Upon further review, Week 7: Browns defensive coordinator Rob Ryan's scheme flummoxed Saints QB Drew Brees By Dennis Manoloff, The Plain Dealer on October 26, 2010 at 3:15 PM, updated October 26, 2010 at 3:35 PM Print
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Joshua Gunter / The Plain Dealer David Bowens picked off two Drew Brees passes and returned both for touchdowns. CLEVELAND, Ohio -- A total of 356 passing yards looks nice on paper.
It did not look so good on the Superdome turf Sunday in New Orleans, La.
Saints quarterback Drew Brees, a veteran and one of the game's best passers, amassed the big number but performed poorly when it mattered in the Browns' 30-17 victory at the Superdome.
Browns defensive coordinator Rob Ryan's scheme made Brees periodically look like a wide-eyed rookie. A DVR review of the CBS telecast confirmed that Ryan and his band of thieves deserved their props for a job well done.
Yes, the Browns' trick plays crippled the Saints. Some timely first downs, especially in the fourth quarter, helped. But the meat on the dawg bone was Ryan's amoeba defense., whose various forms confused the Saints' offensive line and rattled Brees -- regardless of what the quarterback said afterwards. Brees needed 56 attempts to get his yards and was intercepted four times.
One of the most telling plays came early. The Saints faced third-and-15 from their 18 with 9:07 left in the first quarter. As Brees mishandled a shotgun snap, the Browns rushed two -- Shaun Rogers and Marcus Benard. Brees picked up the ball and dumped off to Ladell Betts on what appeared to be a designed screen, but Betts gained merely 6 because the Browns had more than enough tacklers waiting patiently for him at the second level.
Ryan's amoeba is designed to create confusion as to how many will be rushing, how many will be covering, and where everybody will be coming from. Players mill around as if in a shopping-mall food court until just before the snap. It is all about taking away the pre-snap read.
The best opportunity for such a defense to thrive is when the opponent does not feature much of a running game. The Browns were not worried about the Saints exploiting gaps in the line, so they could freelance without pause. The Saints finished with 58 yards rushing on 18 carries.
Even without a ground threat, a quarterback the caliber of Brees can win a game by himself. But he's not going to do so when he never sees the opposing linebacker in coverage, as happened late in the fourth quarter. On a Saints' second-and-10 from the Cleveland 34, the Browns rushed three, Rogers applying pressure up the middle.
Linebacker David Bowens, coming from the right side of the defense, locked on Brees's eyes and began sliding over the middle. Brees attempted to connect with Betts at medium range, but the pass never got there because Bowens sprang up and picked it off at the Cleveland 36. It was soon to be 30-10 Cleveland.
From the time the ball was snapped through his release, Brees never saw Bowens. If Brees did, he's not as smart as we think he is.
Bowens was the brightest of many stars for the Browns in the upset special. He also had an interception return for touchdown late in the second quarter. For the first pick-six, Bowens did not rely on stealth; he was in the right place at the right time and made an athletic play. The Saints had first-and-10 from their 32 when Browns linebacker Matt Roth beat the right tackle and grabbed the jersey of Brees, who attempted to throw the ball away over the middle. The pass hit Bowens, bounced off a Saint and back to Bowens at the 30. Bowens reached down to grab the carom, turned the corner and scored for a 20-3 lead.
Other observations from the DVR review:
*Rogers, who, despite his size, has been largely invisible this season, delivered his most impactful game. Early in the second quarter, Rogers pressured Brees into committing a major mistake in the red zone. Brees threw a pass well behind intended receiver Betts and into the hands of linebacker Scott Fujita at the Cleveland 3. Fujita returned it to the 19.
On that play, Rogers was the only Brown with his hand on the ground when the ball was snapped. The rush ended up being 3-on-6, but Rogers split a double-team and forced a wobbly pass.
*Speaking of Fujita.....Fun to watch every week, he elevated his game that much more against the team with which he won a Super Bowl earlier this year. Fujita, Ryan's coach on the field, seemed to be everywhere and made sure his teammates were in the correct spots. Brees would never admit it, but I think Fujita's presence unnerved him. Brees knows how intelligent Fujita is, and he must have realized Fujita was sniffing out plays before they happened.
*Browns punter Reggie Hodges has been tremendous the last two weeks. His 68-yard run up the middle off a fake punt late in the first half was a thing of beauty. Credit Jason Trusnik for sealing off one side, and Blake Costanzo for selling what the Saints' Matt Giordano might have thought was a fake-punt run to the left. Giordano left the middle of the field vacated to chase Costanzo, opening the gaping hole.
*Josh Cribbs's charge that his crotch had been grabbed at the end of a return could not be verified because CBS cut away to highlights too quickly after he had been tackled.
We know what you were referring to, what they were referring to, however, was the UFO defense that Crennel used here in 2000, long before he came back as the head coach.
Quote: Below you'll find what I was referring to. If you have something from the 2000 season when Crennel was DC for the Browns, with all due respect, please sight it.
Crennel is widely considered the architect of the 'UFO defense', though that's not entirely true, as Bob Slowik actually ran it in our first expansion season. But, if you ask anyone who constructed the 'UFO', most everyone will say Crennel.
Hey, Tony: Is Rob Ryan utilizing a concept of Romeo Crennel's infamous "UFO" defense from 2000? I notice on these third-and-long situations, it seems like they are not lining up traditionally in order to disguise where the blitz is coming from. -- Dan Martin, Westlake
Hey, Dan: It certainly does resemble the UFO defense. In truth, first-year coach Chris Palmer and then-coordinator Bob Slowik introduced the UFO package in 1999 -- the year before Crennel joined as coordinator. It wasn't effective then and it's not been effective now.
Ok, now I get it. I admit that I'm unfamiliar with the Crennell iteration of the Amoeba. Although I have been a fan of the this team since the moment I became aware of professional football, I don't pretend to know everything. Anyone willing to explain?
Quote: Ok, now I get it. I admit that I'm unfamiliar with the Crennell iteration of the Amoeba. Although I have been a fan of the this team since the moment I became aware of professional football, I don't pretend to know everything. Anyone willing to explain?
I'm not familiar with it either, but from what I gather, it and Ryan's "amoeba" thing were kinda similar.... they looked like a bunch of guys not knowing precisely what to do, and it wasn't terribly effective.
Quote: Ok, now I get it. I admit that I'm unfamiliar with the Crennell iteration of the Amoeba. Although I have been a fan of the this team since the moment I became aware of professional football, I don't pretend to know everything. Anyone willing to explain?
I'm not familiar with it either, but from what I gather, it and Ryan's "amoeba" thing were kinda similar.... they looked like a bunch of guys not knowing precisely what to do, and it wasn't terribly effective.
"This! And where did all these poster's with so much negativity come from? "
to the pick but didn't say anything beyond that. I've been doing 70-hour work weeks due to being short-staffed and horribly mis-managed by a new GM that doesn't know which direction the sun comes up every morning, so instead of firing off from the hip I just waited until I was more level-headed before talking, hehe.
Can we get back to talking about football?
After all, weirder things have happened. Lombardi is here isn't he? 
