Source: nfl.com This weight debate keeps cropping up. So I'll say again what I said before, weight nor muscle mass necessarily equate to strength. The players mentioned above were not rocked up behemoths. I would take any of them at their listed playing weights. Its the Strength and Conditioning Coaches who will work with Mingo, not the bodybuilding coaches.
Quote: If he puts on 10 pounds he will weigh about the same as both Clay Matthews and DeMarcus Ware.
And yet both Ware and Matthews are considered stout against the run and good at shedding blocks. So ten pounds is going to make Mingo good in those areas as well.
If you look at their pics, it's clear that Mingo doesn't have the same build as either of those guys, and adding a mere 10 pounds isn't going to get him there.
Many players look exactly the same on paper in terms of size but don't play anything like it on the field. Mingo would have to add 20 pounds of pure muscle to have their size, and I don't see that happening.
Trying to find fair and telling pics isn't easy, but clearly 10 pounds of muscle is not going to put Mingo into the same conversation as Ware and Matthews. He's just that long, that lean, and that slight-of-build. Much of it is in his lower body, that's where the power of Matthews and Ware come from. And for the record, that picture of Mingo wasns't taken in 2009. It was taken the day before the draft.
Not all players are built the same, yet can be listed as the same height and weight.
What Ware and Matthews do aren't things that Mingo is going to be able to do. His game will be different. It'll be all about speed, and the lack of the other attributes which would make him an all around player are my concerns.
Just FYI all those picture are heavily photoshopped even #94. I do this so i can tell.
I think it pretty clear that both Ware and Matthews are much larger in the upper body than Mingo. Given some time in an NFL weight room Mingo can put on 10-15 lbs of clean weight and not lose any speed.
Fact is, my concerns are his poor tacking. The fact he is questioned by how larger opponents have been known to drive block him right out of plays. His ability to shed blockers has also been questioned.
My questions and concerns are about some basics he lacks that simply having a quick burst won't answer.
Hopefully these issues can be coached up, but IMO, there's more question marks and more of a project here than many wish to discuss or admit. The weight is actually the least of my concerns.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
Quote: You really need to address that to someone else.
Fact is, my concerns are his poor tacking. The fact he is questioned by how larger opponents have been known to drive block him right out of plays. His ability to shed blockers has also been questioned.
My questions and concerns are about some basics he lacks that simply having a quick burst won't answer.
Hopefully these issues can be coached up, but IMO, there's more question marks and more of a project here than many wish to discuss or admit. The weight is actually the least of my concerns.
Ok... I don't think I had to do more than use established board etiquette. My post clearly starts with a j/c. It was never intended for you specifically.
What might have happened is that I started writing my response when your post was the last one in the thread. Others were added before I was finished writing what I wanted to say. Hope that clears things up.
Quote: If he puts on 10 pounds he will weigh about the same as both Clay Matthews and DeMarcus Ware.
And yet both Ware and Matthews are considered stout against the run and good at shedding blocks. So ten pounds is going to make Mingo good in those areas as well.
If you look at their pics, it's clear that Mingo doesn't have the same build as either of those guys, and adding a mere 10 pounds isn't going to get him there.
Many players look exactly the same on paper in terms of size but don't play anything like it on the field. Mingo would have to add 20 pounds of pure muscle to have their size, and I don't see that happening.
Trying to find fair and telling pics isn't easy, but clearly 10 pounds of muscle is not going to put Mingo into the same conversation as Ware and Matthews. He's just that long, that lean, and that slight-of-build. Much of it is in his lower body, that's where the power of Matthews and Ware come from. And for the record, that picture of Mingo wasns't taken in 2009. It was taken the day before the draft.
Not all players are built the same, yet can be listed as the same height and weight.
What Ware and Matthews do aren't things that Mingo is going to be able to do. His game will be different. It'll be all about speed, and the lack of the other attributes which would make him an all around player are my concerns.
Just FYI all those picture are heavily photoshopped even #94. I do this so i can tell.
Yeah, I can tell too. Look at Ware's (#94) wrists w/ the tape just for a start. It looks obviously fake...something is up. I won't start on the magazine cover....
Pit, other than Milliner, who in this draft didn't have huge question marks about their game? Heck, most people even questioned Milliner. The only other safe guy I saw was Eifert, but can you imagine the uproar had we drafted him? LOL
Seriously bro, even the guys who went ahead of him are questionable. Ansah? Are you kidding me? Jordan? Heck, I can't even remember the name of the OT who was drafted 1st. Do you remember you and I leading the charge to draft Joe Thomas back in the day? Do you think either of those tackles compare to Joe? And they were the best of this class.
I usually get excited about the draft and do a lot of researching. I get tapes from one of the guys I used to scout with and break guys down. I enjoy doing it. I started doing it this year and just quit. It was a lame draft, Pit.
Does Mingo have question marks? He sure does.
Is he the guy I wanted? No, I wanted Milliner or a trade down.
Was he one of the better prospects in this particular draft? I think so.
Do I think he will fit in w/what Horton does on defense? Ab-so-freak-ing-lut-ly!
Bottom line: I don't think he is a sure thing. I do think that he was just as good as anyone else we could have taken, sans Milliner. I even think he is safer than a guy like Ansah. It was just a weird draft.
I was somewhat hoping for Milliner, too, but Mingo's growing on me. The strength/weight question concerned me a lot especially considering he didn't bench at the combine or a pro-day, but I feel a little better after finding a couple good reads on football outsiders.
Quote: I was somewhat hoping for Milliner, too, but Mingo's growing on me. The strength/weight question concerned me a lot especially considering he didn't bench at the combine or a pro-day, but I feel a little better after finding a couple good reads on football outsiders.
It's too bad those two links can't be posted (due to included video examples and graphs).
I read these several days ago. Both are excellent, informative articles which everyone on here should read. Much more in depth and analytical than anything else I've read on Mingo/Deon Jordon. The comparisons are eye opening.
Quote: I have a great fear that Mingo is going to be the new version of Kam Wimbley...an edge-rusher who lacks the ability to develop dynamic moves and is questionable (at best) against the run.
That's a helluva gamble to make with the 6th pick in the draft.
I believe most of us would have felt better about this draft had we'd addressed the CB issue in the first rather add another "pass rushing specialist." It was to my understanding that we've already addressed that with the addition of Kruger in FA. I get the philosophy and reason for the pick, however, in your first draft as a rebuilt organization, you have to hit your first few picks out of the park or you set your team back. I hope Mingo proves the majority of us wrong in the Wimbley comparison.
Here is a picture of Clay Jr. when he's just playing and not all pumped up and flexing for a muscle magazine which is probably also altered... he doesn't look nearly as thick...
and a similar picture of Mingo, not playing with little kids..
He is thinner, but give the kid a year or two to add 10-15 pounds and I don't honestly think there is that much difference.... Clay Jr. at the combine was 240, Mingo was 241... Ware was 251 so he has only added about 5 pounds, whereas Clay Jr and Mingo will be asked to add more.. I really don't see this as a big deal.
I just hope that he adds 10-15 sacks to our defense next year.
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First post on this board. Many years on Browns Chat...
I didn't like the pick when it occurred, since wasn't top priority area of need in my book. Trying to let it grow on me. Hope the intent is to use him as an outside LB and he can improve run tackling. At his current configuration, my fear is he'll get trucked by big RBs and forklifted by experienced linemen. But I gotta admit, his speed looks awesome on the highlight reels.
I vow to smack everyone who says the importance of the running back is diminished in the NFL today.
I'm not really throwing a fit about it or anything Verse. I agree this was a weird draft.
If Mingo overcomes the questions surrounding him, he should do very well. If not? Time will tell.
I also agree there wasn't a LT in this draft that will compare to Joe Thomas. He's a very rare find.
Do I think Millner was a much safrer pick at a position of need? Yes I do. But I'm not shooting the Mingo pick down. I just feel there was a safer option and we took more of a gamble.
As I said, time will tell.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
Quote: Do I think Millner was a much safrer pick at a position of need? Yes I do. But I'm not shooting the Mingo pick down. I just feel there was a safer option and we took more of a gamble.
So you think taking a player that's held together with super glue would be a safer pick? He's gonna have a hard time just making it thru the year let alone playing for years. JMO
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It is obvious that the deciders hand Mingo rated higher than Milliner (to me it is obvious as they both were there and they took Mingo). I am curious as to why that was. Was it the 5 operations?
Last edited by CapCity Dawg; 05/02/1309:06 PM.
How does a league celebrating its 100th season only recognize the 53 most recent championships?
Quote: First post on this board. Many years on Browns Chat...
I didn't like the pick when it occurred, since wasn't top priority area of need in my book. Trying to let it grow on me. Hope the intent is to use him as an outside LB and he can improve run tackling. At his current configuration, my fear is he'll get trucked by big RBs and forklifted by experienced linemen. But I gotta admit, his speed looks awesome on the highlight reels.
Welcome to the board, Nuke.
My guess: the powers that be saw more of a need for a pressure pass rush than DB. It could be that they are from the camp that believes pressure takes some of the weight off DB's, OR maybe they see something in the guys we already have that make them feel they can work with.
From my POV, BOTH were needs, after seeing our sporadic pass rush last year.
Either spoy being addressed was going to be fine with me, so I wasn't upset at the Mingo selection at all, even though I knew we still needed SOME kind of answer at DB.
I liked Millner but the surgeries would have prevented me from drafting him that high. Mingo I did not like at all. I just saw a guy with a lot of potential that was never a difference maker. Pushed around and didnt really have the hand strength nor technique to keep defenders off of him. I understand he is being asked to fill a different role but I just didnt see a first round guy.
I have to admit the late round pass rusher has me more intrigued than Mingo.
j/c Kruger performed at his best last season once there was a dominant pass rusher opposite him that teams had to account for. Sheard could become that guy but that is still an unknown at this point. Mingo also could be that player and given his athletic skills it is not far fetched that he could be more impactful in pass rush than Sheard. With Mingo and Sheard on the roster there is an increased likelihood that this defense can get the production it is seeking from Kruger.
Quote: First post on this board. Many years on Browns Chat...
I didn't like the pick when it occurred, since wasn't top priority area of need in my book. Trying to let it grow on me. Hope the intent is to use him as an outside LB and he can improve run tackling. At his current configuration, my fear is he'll get trucked by big RBs and forklifted by experienced linemen. But I gotta admit, his speed looks awesome on the highlight reels.
Welcome to the board, Nuke.
My guess: the powers that be saw more of a need for a pressure pass rush than DB. It could be that they are from the camp that believes pressure takes some of the weight off DB's, OR maybe they see something in the guys we already have that make them feel they can work with.
From my POV, BOTH were needs, after seeing our sporadic pass rush last year.
Either spoy being addressed was going to be fine with me, so I wasn't upset at the Mingo selection at all, even though I knew we still needed SOME kind of answer at DB.
Maybe they didn't see more of a need for a pressure pass rush than DB, but they had Mingo rated higher as a player than Milliner and they were strictly thinking BPA. Maybe Milliner's 5 surgeries was a factor. And instead of reaching for the next best CB they went with who they thought was BPA.
How does a league celebrating its 100th season only recognize the 53 most recent championships?
Quote: Dee Milliner missed one game in his collegiate career and Saban said he could have played if needed.
5 frickin' surgeries though. I just don't think that should be taken lightly.
not picking on you but... has anyone ever found out exactly what his surgeries are for?
i mean there is a difference between a scope and a shredded acl/mcl
I had to have surgery 2 years ago to remove a splinter because the doctors or anyone else could get it out and it got infected. They put me under for it and everything.
Blocking those who argue to argue, eliminates the argument.
Milliner played his junior year with a torn labrum and had surgery following the season, his fifth career surgery. The other surgeries: right knee scope, sports hernia, right tibia stress fracture and another shoulder surgery.
The only safe pick for us I thought were - Warmack, Cooper n Eifert.
Millner was to be a sure top 5 pick - the injuries did drop him. Skill wise he was the most NFL ready CB bar none. And I'll say this - NFL teams had dropped him a long time ago not due to any rumor stuff...that is the draft nicks just finding out how NFL teams were viewing Millner. Jets had two picks - when you have 9 n 13 you can take that risk nobody else is willing to take cause they got only one pick...us Only 1 pick in top 67 prospects.
Also I believe Lombardi n crew felt very comfortable with several Mid round CBs n thought it had good depth.
Mingo - I started mentioning in my Ansah/Jordan/Mingo cause his name started popping up a lot. But I didn't really consider him cause I was sure one of the first two would be available. Possibly they had Jordan ahead of Mingo? Possibly they had Mingo ahead of Ansah???
Amazing Positive: Cannot express the importance n UNIQUE skill set Mingo has with a rare fist step - explosion n speed of it.
Disappointing Negative: Tackling skills - would get there on RBs...but the RB way too often would through the tackles with hardly any disruption in their gate at all. I only saw 2-3 game tapes but I didn't see that killer animal explosion into his tackles. Inside he was trying to tackle with his hands (not even arms).
Summary: We got the strength n conditioning guy...we got excellent coaches. If he is willing to work hard at it n has no fear...he will be great. If that tackling negative is due to some innate fear...it will not be good. But what real defensive football player has fear? Likelihood of that is pretty slim if you ask me. He's not a WR right? lol
JMHO without Orange n Brown Glasses
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
I really don't think the surgeries played much of a role in him dropping. What did him in was not having the potential that the first overall cornerback drafted usually has. He doesn't have the pure shutdown potential that Peterson, Claiborne, or even Gilmore have. He'll almost certainly be solid because he's so polished (and probably make a few Pro Bowls), but he's never going to be elite.
If the team wanted and needed to win right now, they would have selected Milliner IMO (because he plays the position of need). But being that they're in it for the long haul, Mingo was the right pick. He has the potential you want with a top 10 pick.
weight nor muscle mass necessarily equate to strength. The players mentioned above were not rocked up behemoths. I would take any of them at their listed playing weights. Its the Strength and Conditioning Coaches who will work with Mingo, not the bodybuilding coaches.
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He's gonna have a hard time just making it thru the year let alone playing for years. JMO
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