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Here's the link to the Radio interview just in case you would like to hear it for yourself: Link
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All of this stuff is really just semantics.
If we run 3 DL, with a LB blitzing, is that a 3 or a 4 man front? How about if we bring the OLB down on to the line to blitz? What about if we bring both OLB to the line, and bring them both? Is that a 3 man front, or a 5 man front?
I think that Horton will bring anywhere from 3 to 6 players on any given play. Whether that's called a 3, 4, 5, or 6 man front is really irrelevant.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
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First off, we can point to what Horton has done in ARZ but we are yet to see one snap of that scheme ran by the Brown's. In that sense it's an unkown. I speculate that what YTown described is pretty close to what we'll see.
I don't think the front will be as stagnant as your usual 4-3 or other versions of the 3-4 that we've seen before. Just looking at the personnel the team has put together, a lot of guys with different strengths. Finding different ways to combine and align those skills would only aid the attacking style we've been told to expect.
As an aside, I saw a blog post on Dawgs by Nature about a "Rain" bliz that the LeBeau style 3-4 has been know to use. If I can figure out how to get that over here (Pure Football) without violating any board rules it would give us something concrete to talk about.
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Want to put a wager on it?
If the Browns line up in strictly a 3-4 defense, you win.
I win if the Browns line up in multiple fronts, such as the 3-4, 4-3, and 5-2.
Tell me how much you are willing to wager. You sure sound confident in your post. Back it up.
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No need to get agitated, Heldawg is just posting what he's read/heard from our DC.
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Quote:
All of this stuff is really just semantics.
If we run 3 DL, with a LB blitzing, is that a 3 or a 4 man front? How about if we bring the OLB down on to the line to blitz? What about if we bring both OLB to the line, and bring them both? Is that a 3 man front, or a 5 man front?
I think that Horton will bring anywhere from 3 to 6 players on any given play. Whether that's called a 3, 4, 5, or 6 man front is really irrelevant.
Technically if there are 3 down lineman and 4 LBs, no matter who blitzes and who is on the line it is a 3-4. And if there are 4 down lineman then its a 4-3.
We will most likely just run what he ran in Zona which is a 3-4. Along with the sub-packages that come along with that of course. I dont doubt that we could see different fronts but I think it will be very rare. Considering how many new front-7 players we have acquired to run the 3-4, Im sure that is what we will be running the vast majority of the time.
But who cares, either way our defense should be much better just because of the new defensive coordinator, let alone the new personnel we got. And it will DEFINITELY be a lot more fun to watch. Same with the offense.
Nothing is more vanilla than Dick Jauron's defense and a West Coast Offense called by Pat Shurmur! Haha
Even if the Browns arent as improved as I expect them to be, at least they will be more entertaining to watch.
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I understand both views of Horton's D.
He did object to the media telling him he is running a Hybrid Defense... ergo his comments stated from the get go.
It did come across to be contradicting to what Chud had said so he soon did feel a need to clarify what his defense would look like. I don't think this was towing the company Line - due to film of Zona defense he did utilized different fronts.
Now what I think he meant by Hybrid vs 3-4.
He runs strictly a 3-4 Defense in the sense of PERSONNEL. (not including special situations as Short Yardage or Nickel n Dime) .
But I think he also wanted all to know he will definitely line this 3-4 Personnel (3 DL n 4 LB) in different looks. Why he said he likes Kruger n Sheard (hopefully Mingo after he gains his weight) cause they are both versatile to step up to the DL n put their hands down as well as playing the basic 3-4 OLB. It was specifically why I was pimping Ziggy at 270+ strong.
so we will break our huddle without a major change of personnel standing in our traditional 3-4 then as the O settles in...we will change our look to a 2-4-5 man front pre-snap well that 2 man front probably would be on the snap having a DE dropping back??? Zone Blitz?
So Horton pffft the notion he would run a Hybrid D. Then pretty much fortified his multi-front D coming from the 3-4 base.
Hope all this makes sense...lol We will not know for 100% certainty till we actually see our D & I think it might not be seen until game 1...Preseason I don't think he's going to show our true looks.
JMHO
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jc it's all semantics, In a 3-4 alignment, how close does an OLB need to be to the line for it to be called a 4-3 ? If we walk a FS up to within 6 yards of LOS and have an OLB on the line is it a 4-4? If both OLB are standing up but 1 yard off LOS is it a 5-2? What if we line up in "5-2" and the DL falls back to zone does that make it a 4-3 or a 2-5? What is criteria, does OLB have to have hand in dirt for a true 4-3? What if Sheard has hand in dirt but DE is standing ( remember the UFO defense>?) still a 3-4 or now a 4-3? Just because we send an OLB does it default to a 4-4, what if we send an OLB and FS is that a 5-3? Bottom line these are all formations frun from a base 3-4 ( excpet IMO when the OLB has hand in dirt and the DL has shifted into down line gaps). It's all mental masturbation.  Who realy knows... persoanally I can not wait to see it.
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Quote:
jc
it's all semantics,
In a 3-4 alignment, how close does an OLB need to be to the line for it to be called a 4-3 ?
If we walk a FS up to within 6 yards of LOS and have an OLB on the line is it a 4-4?
If both OLB are standing up but 1 yard off LOS is it a 5-2?
What if we line up in "5-2" and the DL falls back to zone does that make it a 4-3 or a 2-5?
What is criteria, does OLB have to have hand in dirt for a true 4-3?
What if Sheard has hand in dirt but DE is standing ( remember the UFO defense>?) still a 3-4 or now a 4-3?
Just because we send an OLB does it default to a 4-4, what if we send an OLB and FS is that a 5-3?
Bottom line these are all formations frun from a base 3-4 ( excpet IMO when the OLB has hand in dirt and the DL has shifted into down line gaps).
It's all mental masturbation.
Who realy knows... persoanally I can not wait to see it.
Its all about the personnel on the field. It doesnt matter who walks up to the line.
But yeah its just semantics, who really cares what we are technically running. As long as it works and puts some Qbs on their asses.
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,,,who really cares what we are technically running. As long as it works and puts some Qbs on their asses.
But it is fun trying to figure it out and understand how it works. That helps in understanding which type of player will be doing what. It also makes watching the games a lot more fun than simply "following the ball" on game day.
#gmstrong
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Quote:
No need to get agitated, Heldawg is just posting what he's read/heard from our DC.
What makes you think I was agitated? I wasn't agitated at all. I am just looking to make an easy buck.
I have already provided articles on this board that quoted both Horton and Chud REPEATEDLY saying that we would run a defense that features multiple fronts. 3-4, 4-3, 5-2.
You want in on this? And no, I am not agitated in the slightest. 
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Quote:
But yeah its just semantics, who really cares what we are technically running. As long as it works and puts some Qbs on their asses.
Well, there are a lot of people around here who care. If we get rid of the "we are strictly running a 3-4" argument, it will take some of the ammunition away from the group that wants to bash the new FO for every move they make.
God forbid, we be objective.
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One thing is for sure he needs to get ALLOT BIGGER AND STRONGER....he looks like a damn saftey.......just dont understand this pick......should have taken millner, D.J hayden or trufaunt.........in my opinion the risk of mingo being a bust is close to 50%......way to much for a 1st round pick. Hope im wrong.....
" Now here you are running these dirty old streets tattoo on your neck fake gold on your teeth, got the hood here snowed but you can't fool me, we both know who you are"
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tab, here are some quotes from Ray Horton's press conference w/Chud in attendance: Quote:
(Opening statement)- “Thanks Coach. First off all, I’d like to say I’m excited to be here in Cleveland. I’d like to thank Mr. (Jimmy) Haslam, Mr. (Joe) Banner and Mr. (Michael) Lombardi for the opportunity to come here and be a part of Coach Rob’s (Chudzinski) team. What are we? I don’t really care what we are on defense. I want to know, what are we going to look like? We’re going to look like an aggressive, forward attacking defense that has big men that can run and little men that can hit. I’ve seen that on tape and that’s the most important thing to me is what do we look like, not what we line up in. We may be a 3-4 on one snap. We may be a 4-3 on another snap. I guarantee we’ll be a 5-2 sometimes and we’ll be a 4-4 sometimes. We are a multi-front, attacking defense and that’s the most important thing, not what player lines up where, how he stands, what stance he’s in.
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(On how much of an overhaul he has to do to the defense to turn it into a 3-4)- “Going back, I use the word multiple front. Coach Rob uses hybrid. They’re the same term. They’re just different semantics of language. We are going to be a defense that gives offenses problems. Our guys can play a multitude of things. I don’t like to get pigeonholed into, ‘Well, he is this.’ Here’s what we’re going to be. We’re going to be a team that looks at the offense and tries to take away what they do best. Now, that may mean one snap being a 5-2. The next snap it may be a 4-4. It will be predicated by what the offense does and we have athletes that can stand up, that can put their hand in the ground and that can run. That’s why I go back to the multi-front defense. I can’t tell you what we’re going to be right now, it depends on who we line up game one against. What do they do? What do we need to take away? The thing I’m most excited about is I have a group of athletes that can run and hit and they’re not limited to just saying, ‘Coach, line me up in a specific front, number system and play.’ Just run and hit.”
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(On if his defense will really be a mirror image of Pittsburgh)- “I didn’t say that, I don’t believe. This will be a mirror image of Coach Rob and his wishes, his likes and his desires of having a multi-front, attacking defense. I’m not sure what Pittsburgh is. I know what we will be.”
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On if the Cardinals’ high interception total last year was because of the players or the because of the defensive scheme)- “It’s a by-product of both. Understanding what the players can do best and putting them in the position. That’s why I go back to, I’ll use Coach Rob’s term, a hybrid of what do you do best? It’s what they do best and sometimes it's a 4-4, sometimes it’s a 3-4, sometimes it’s a 4-3. I think that’s one of the things that I do well is I let the players tell me what to do because they will by how they play, how they react, what they do on the field, what they do in the meeting room. I like to be malleable where I’m not so rigid that this is it, this is the only way to do it. You’ve got to be flexible and let your players tell you what they do best in the certain forms of how they tell you.”
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(On how much of his attacking defense is purely blitzing)- “It goes back to Coach Rob, again, with what his desires are, first of all and then this hybrid defense. I bring a lot. I bring little guys, the corners, they blitz. I bring big guys, I drop big guys into coverage and that’s what Coach Rob is saying in this – as he’s prepared for defenses, this hybrid of, ‘What are you looking at?’ We’re a little bit different. We bring little guys because they can run and they can hit. I bring big guys and I drop big guys because they can run. I’ve got the perfect mix here of big guys that can run and little guys that can hit.”
I think it's pretty daggone clear. Chud is the HC. Horton is the defensive coordinator. We WILL BE RUNNING A DEFENSE THAT HAS MULTIPLE FRONTS. GUARANTEED.
Here is the link to the entire article. It is worth reading.
http://www.ohio.com/blogs/cleveland-brow...erence-1.368916
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Hope im wrong.....
Do you?
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One thing is for sure he needs to get ALLOT BIGGER AND STRONGER....he looks like a damn saftey.......just dont understand this pick......should have taken millner, D.J hayden or trufaunt.........in my opinion the risk of mingo being a bust is close to 50%......way to much for a 1st round pick. Hope im wrong.....
He needs to get a little stronger, I wouldn't say "A LOT STRONGER". Have you watched him on film? Or are you just basing this off how he looks?
Because from what I've seen on tape he plays a lot stronger than he looks. I watched him power rush D.J. Fluker right in the chest, and push him 7 yards into the backfield, causing McCarron to flush out of the pocket. And D.J. is a big man. And 1st round pick.
I feel like people just look at him and assume he's weak. But when you watch him on tape he plays strong.
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Also he played at LSU at like 225-230 lbs. He said he put on 15lbs before the combine.
i dont think people should worry about him getting stronger. I don't even think he has grown into his man body yet.
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Yes we are running a 34 and yes if you want to bet I bet eleventy billion dollars.
You sure get agitated quick these days.
I'll just leave it at this.
Chud in a press conference was getting a line of questioning that dealt with Dick Jauron and the 43 and Horton and the 34. It was concerning the switch and he tried to soften things by calling it a hybrid front.
Horton, while talking with Arizona radio guys he was comfortable with, said that its not a hybrid. I tend to believe Horton here.
I believe it was embarrassing to Chud and once they got together in front of the media you could tell that they were now singing for the same songsheet.
Now the nature of pittsburgh's 34 is that they rush four players up the field most of the time. Who that fourth guy is is the basis of their zone blitz scheme. They also drop DLs into zones at odd times and they'll throw both ILBers into the A gaps at times.
But they never to my recollection put 5 DL onto the field outside of a goal line or inches scenario. Nor do they rip DEs off the field on anything but an outlier scenario.
So get used to 3 DL and 4 LB on 90% of defensive plays. Will Sheard slide into a DE position on obvious passing downs. I think that's plausible to get him, Krueger and Mingo on the field together.
But yes we're running a 34 this year and don't kid yourself otherwise.
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Milliner at this point is not even a Joe Haden talent. With that being said...is he not worth the 6th pick either???
I think not. Milliner will be solid and that's all he will ever be. Mingo is rare!!!
You dont have to win every game just the next one!
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Milliner at this point is not even a Joe Haden talent. With that being said...is he not worth the 6th pick either???
I think not. Milliner will be solid and that's all he will ever be. Mingo is Arare!!!
I completely agree. The consensus was that Milliner was the best corner in this draft, but you notice they never talked about him as being a special corner, like a Claiborne or Peterson. He was just the best in this draft. If he was THAT great, he would have been taken far before 9.
I wanted him for awhile, but after watching some tape on him I didnt see anything special. He has good size and speed, but those Bama corners often dont translate as well to the NFL because at Bama all they do is play press man. Milliner has trouble back peddling. And his hands are awful. 22 pass break ups and 2 INTs? Come on. Bad ball skills.
The idea behind Mingo is, why draft a corner and make 1 more secondary spot better, when you can draft a pass rusher and make the entire secondary better with a good front-7.
After a QB the most important position is pass rusher. Especially these days.
I also think Mingo will be a special player. Theres just something about him when you watch him on film. Its hard to describe. But he plays so fast and violent. A lot of players you will see run a 4.6 40 yard dash, but it doesnt translate that well to the field. Like Dion Jordan. He runs fast in a straight line but he doesnt play quite as fast on film IMO. Mingo plays much faster and more violently. Fun to watch.
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Mingo coming off the edge looks like a baby giraffe trying to walk.
I say that in the most positive way possible.
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By that reference i hope you mean VERY QUICK because that is what I have watched for a few year's. 
You dont have to win every game just the next one!
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Very well said.
You dont have to win every game just the next one!
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Keep hanging on to that, Held. Sure can't let reality get in the way of your bashing of the new regime, can we?
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Quote:
One thing is for sure he needs to get ALLOT BIGGER AND STRONGER....he looks like a damn saftey.......just dont understand this pick......should have taken millner, D.J hayden or trufaunt.........in my opinion the risk of mingo being a bust is close to 50%......way to much for a 1st round pick. Hope im wrong.....
First ,he can only put on so much weight before it slows him down, and any weight gain will come over years and be gradual.
The Browns coveted Mingo, because he brings as aspect that no one else on the defense does. He's an elite athlete. He may not be an elite pass rusher at the moment, , but his athleticism and natural ability allow them to do things in the defense they wouldn't be able to with him in it.
Mingo has the athleticism as a speed rusher or even drop deep in coverage. They believe he's a difference maker in the scheme.
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Mingo coming off the edge looks like a baby giraffe trying to walk.
I say that in the most positive way possible.
Hahaha I never knew that baby giraffes were one of the fastest animals in the animal kingdom.
Either that or you look like a bat trying to watch Mingo on film. 
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Quote:
Yes we are running a 34 and yes if you want to bet I bet eleventy billion dollars.
You sure get agitated quick these days.
I'll just leave it at this.
Chud in a press conference was getting a line of questioning that dealt with Dick Jauron and the 43 and Horton and the 34. It was concerning the switch and he tried to soften things by calling it a hybrid front.
Horton, while talking with Arizona radio guys he was comfortable with, said that its not a hybrid. I tend to believe Horton here.
I believe it was embarrassing to Chud and once they got together in front of the media you could tell that they were now singing for the same songsheet.
Now the nature of pittsburgh's 34 is that they rush four players up the field most of the time. Who that fourth guy is is the basis of their zone blitz scheme. They also drop DLs into zones at odd times and they'll throw both ILBers into the A gaps at times.
But they never to my recollection put 5 DL onto the field outside of a goal line or inches scenario. Nor do they rip DEs off the field on anything but an outlier scenario.
So get used to 3 DL and 4 LB on 90% of defensive plays. Will Sheard slide into a DE position on obvious passing downs. I think that's plausible to get him, Krueger and Mingo on the field together.
But yes we're running a 34 this year and don't kid yourself otherwise.
I agree with most of what you said. Horton's FIRST comments were that has no hybrid and it's a 3-4. His Arizona defensive stat of running a 4-man front on 5% of the plays in 2012 (profootballfocus.com stat and stated in a Terry Pluto article) allude to those first comments and support your opinion. Will we see some four or five fronts? The odds are that we will. Not many though if we go simply on Norton's 2012 season in Arizona. I think some comments are confusing regarding the frequency of multiple fronts as in we will see somewhat of an even distribution of formations. Again, I don't think its gonna be even close.
The wild card here is what Chud wants. If he's told Horton that he demands to see more diversity in that regard, then we'll see if that happens. However, I also lean on the assumption that Chud is giving Horton close to full reign on this defensive approach. But that's just me.
In the end, we will see how many multiple fronts we'll see but I'm guessing the 3-4 will be run nearly 90% of plays next year. Maybe more.
Last edited by MemphisBrownie; 05/08/13 09:34 AM.
Tackles are tackles.
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J/C
Maybe it's just me, but i am not all that concerned about his weight.
Naturally there are certain limits as to how light he can be, but he isn't a bull rusher, so I don't think playing at 235-240 is a major concern.
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Thanks for putting that out there again...mostly for the others cause I remembered that presser. Why I said above:
"It did come across to be contradicting to what Chud had said so he soon did feel a need to clarify what his defense would look like. I don't think this was towing the company Line - due to film of Zona defense he did utilized different fronts."
He just objected to the term Hybrid...possibly in the football world that would mean something different (very small) in the utilization of different fronts. His initial statements insisting he will be utilizing a 3-4 D I think meant the PERSONNEL for his different fronts. Yes Horton has a clear vision of what his Defense will be. Chud is the HC n can tell/request certain things from Horton usually that is the beginning of the end unless they have a prior working relationship (like Mangini n Ryan as he laid into Ryan a couple of times).
But I think Horton definitely is bringing to the Browns what Chud wants...Attack with multiple looks...Horton looks to be covering both not because of CHUD but because that is WHO HE IS...why its a good match!
We pretty much are in full agreement...not sure how he will do the multiple fronts...change personnel??? I doubt it cause the NFL O's are doing a lot of no huddle quick sets so that D cannot change personnel. So what my explanation was is my thoughts on how it will be brought to us. The multiple front thing is a Given Fact n not Horton surrendering to Chud...All Horton as per my quote above. Was subtle about that but if you re read that it was what I meant...lol
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
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Quote:
J/C
Maybe it's just me, but i am not all that concerned about his weight.
Naturally there are certain limits as to how light he can be, but he isn't a bull rusher, so I don't think playing at 235-240 is a major concern.
I agree. I'm not that concerned but I would still like to see him put in weight. I think he could play comfortably at 250 without losing speed and explosion. 235 is too small for the run game.
But like I have said, he plays stronger than people give him credit for. People always equate weight to strength. That's not always the case. Weight isn't the problem for NFL players, it's strength. You can be 240 lbs but still have the strength to shed 300lb lineman.
I'm just not concerned that he can't put on weight. I think he will comfortably put on weight easily. He may never be 270lbs but that's not his game.
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Hope im wrong.....
Do you?
YES VERY MUCH SO.......I WANT THE KID TO BE A STUD....
" Now here you are running these dirty old streets tattoo on your neck fake gold on your teeth, got the hood here snowed but you can't fool me, we both know who you are"
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One thing is for sure he needs to get ALLOT BIGGER AND STRONGER....he looks like a damn saftey.......just dont understand this pick......should have taken millner, D.J hayden or trufaunt.........in my opinion the risk of mingo being a bust is close to 50%......way to much for a 1st round pick. Hope im wrong.....
He needs to get a little stronger, I wouldn't say "A LOT STRONGER". Have you watched him on film? Or are you just basing this off how he looks?
Because from what I've seen on tape he plays a lot stronger than he looks. I watched him power rush D.J. Fluker right in the chest, and push him 7 yards into the backfield, causing McCarron to flush out of the pocket. And D.J. is a big man. And 1st round pick.
I feel like people just look at him and assume he's weak. But when you watch him on tape he plays strong.
Yes i knew who he was coming out of college and yes i have watched film on him since we drafted him. Would like to see him add some serious bulk.....like i said he kinda looks like a safety playing DE to me.....
" Now here you are running these dirty old streets tattoo on your neck fake gold on your teeth, got the hood here snowed but you can't fool me, we both know who you are"
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Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
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J/C
Maybe it's just me, but i am not all that concerned about his weight.
Naturally there are certain limits as to how light he can be, but he isn't a bull rusher, so I don't think playing at 235-240 is a major concern.
It's not just you, I'm certain the two of us have expressed similar thoughts on this subject before.
Even though he didn't have big sack numbers over his career at LSU, 15 total I think, his ability to play his contain responsibilities in their defense and do it well, demonstrates he has considerable strength.
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
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Hope im wrong.....
Do you?
YES VERY MUCH SO.......I WANT THE KID TO BE A STUD....
That is impossible! If you question this FO about anything you want the Browns to fail. Didn't you know that?
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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One thing is for sure he needs to get ALLOT BIGGER AND STRONGER....he looks like a damn saftey.......just dont understand this pick......should have taken millner, D.J hayden or trufaunt.........in my opinion the risk of mingo being a bust is close to 50%......way to much for a 1st round pick. Hope im wrong.....
He needs to get a little stronger, I wouldn't say "A LOT STRONGER". Have you watched him on film? Or are you just basing this off how he looks?
Because from what I've seen on tape he plays a lot stronger than he looks. I watched him power rush D.J. Fluker right in the chest, and push him 7 yards into the backfield, causing McCarron to flush out of the pocket. And D.J. is a big man. And 1st round pick.
I feel like people just look at him and assume he's weak. But when you watch him on tape he plays strong.
Yes i knew who he was coming out of college and yes i have watched film on him since we drafted him. Would like to see him add some serious bulk.....like i said he kinda looks like a safety playing DE to me.....
It doesn't matter what he looks like, it matters how he plays. And if you think he plays like a safety at DE then I seriously doubt you've seen him play.
Unless there are a bunch of 6'4 240lb safeties walkin around who you have seen push a 6'5 340lb tackle 8 yards into the backfield. And that tackle just so happens to be a first round pick.
If this was a body building competition then he would lose. We got him because of his speed and athleticism. Not his physique. Sure he could use some more size, but putting on weight is the least of his worries. He will get bigger.
He needs to focus on polishing his pass rush skills and finishing more plays. I saw him leave a lot of sacks on the field. Even though he usually gave other a chance to make the play.
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Pit, have you been following Slick's posts? I would assume you haven't. It's like he is mac's son. 
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Keep hanging on to that, Held. Sure can't let reality get in the way of your bashing of the new regime, can we?
How am I bashing the new regime? Certainly I did not do that here.
I have no agenda. I'm just calling it how I see it.
And as it relates to the hybrid discussion I'll just say that this isn't my first rodeo.
I've pointed out many things that are very positive about this new group.
So not sure where you're coming from.
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I have had no iteration with either poster (Slick or Mac) but I wont. Why? Just by reading their comments they come across uneducated and just look for faults. I ignore them since they are not worth the time. People are like that, I call them the get a life group. Complain, whine, and moan which seems to work for them, but when the Browns become a winner they will most likely change their tune, which I think they will, they will shut their mouth.
Options are one thing, looking for faults in posts tells me they need a clue or job. Ignore them, their reads are useless IMO.
They hate to hate and that is their mental state. Ignore that.
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Read my post above. I can't take you serious since your not in the position to do so. You are a fan, if not you wouldn't be posting on a forum. I can respect opinions all day long your a hater in my book, so educate yourself before you post. IMO you have no clue about the game and hope you prove me wrong. Go Browns! 
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Dawg Talker
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Seems like this thread has veered off into a ditch of personal attacks...  Can we get back to talking about football?
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums The Archives 2013 NFL Season NFL Draft (2013) "Son Of Barkevious Mingo" [Mingo
Draft, part deux]
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