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The Steeler roster at the time they started their rebuild, via the draft, was dominated by free agent players, drafted by other teams and signed by the Steelers.
just curious Mac...just when did FAgency start? 1969...you mean players cut by other teams.
All that means was the Steelers sucked so bad guys left n right cut by other teams could serve a purpose on there team that had a terrible roster.
Actually very very similar to our Expansion draft given to us - to fill our team with bodies at least so we don't look foolish.
All I know Clark had McCutcheon n Northcutt to last in the NFL some years. Butch had a few more. Savage actually got us some stars. DQ, Joe T, Rubin...Mangini gave us Mack....and the rest is all Heckert. Finally a drafted foundation n solid talent where there is no need for some Massive turnover. Instead for the first time we are Building on the foundation. Got rid of some dead wood (not all of course Dawson was great) but dead wood to their future Long Term goals.
We added Kruger cannot remember us getting the top FA - we did.
We added Bryant along with other 2nd level FA.
We will depend on some of that youth around 25+ To step up n fill some voids.
Scouting dept. usually its hard work the pawns don't change often - possibly top guys change a lot in philosophy of what the team wants, etc.
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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The best example I have been able to find...a franchise that experienced many of the same issues the Browns had since returning in 99....the 1969 Steelers.
Clearly the most applicable comparison. 
PDR...for those who know their football history, comparing the Browns situation from 1999 to 2010 and the Steelers from 1933 to 1968...the similarities are striking.
The irony is, Haslam, as a minority owner of the Steelers before buying the Browns, knew how the Steelers built their franchise into a winner, beginning in 1969....and now Haslam was buying the Browns, a team that made a similar commitment in 2010, to rebuild their roster, via the draft, just as the Steelers did beginning in 1969. Haslam was buying a team that had already endured the two toughest years of the rebuilding process
Here is a more detailed look, comparing the first few years of the Steelers rebuild to the first 3 years of the Browns rebuild 2010 to 2012.
WILL THE HASLAM WAY = THE ROONEY WAY...
In early August, Browns fans learned that Randy Lerner was selling controlling interest of the Cleveland Browns to Mr Jimmy Haslam III. Browns fans also learned that Mr Haslam was a minority owner of the Steelers for the past 3 years.
The news came as a shock to me and my first thought was...who is Jimmy Haslam III?
I began reading everything I could find about Mr Haslam as well as listening every interview I could locate. I learned, as a minority owner of the Steelers, Mr Haslam was interested in the history of the Steelers, as well as the way the Rooney family conducted their football business and how the Steelers franchise became one the of the most successful franchises in the NFL.
I decided it might be a good idea if I did my own research of the Steelers to get some sense of the direction the new owner might be taking our Cleveland Browns.
The Steelers have been owned by the Rooney family since 1933 and were founded as the Pittsburgh Pirates, by Art Rooney, playing in the eastern division of the National Football League. While most fans today associate the Steelers with excellence, winning, the playoffs and Super Bowl victories... that was not the case in their early years.
From 1933 to 1969, the Steelers were horrible under owner, Art Rooney. They were one of the worst teams in the NFL over that period of time with 21 losing seasons, 5 seasons with a even record and 6 winning seasons during that 34 year span. The Steelers only made 1 playoff appearance from 33 to 69...in 1947 when the team had a 8-4 record, losing the division playoff game to the Eagles, 21-0 .
The questions I had...why were the Steelers so bad for so long in their early years?...and how did the Steelers go from being one of the worst NFL franchises to one of the best?
While searching for a reason "why" the Steelers were so bad for a good portion of their first 3 decades, one key factor stands out. The Steelers changed head coaches "a lot", averaging a new head coach approximately every 2.0 yrs. Just for the sake of comparison, one of the most successful franchises over the same period (1933-1969), the New York Giants, averaged a head coaching change every 11.3 yrs.
It has to be very difficult to develop any consistency, one year to the next, when the players are under a different head coach as often as the Steelers were in those early years. The Giants on the other hand were the model of consistency of that era and one of the most successful franchises of that time.
Then I recalled something Mr Haslam noted in an early August interview with Peter King of Sports Illustrated. He was talking about how frequently the Browns changed head coaches, since returning in 1999.
In that interview Mr Haslam explained that he had done some research of the Browns since they returned to the NFL in 1999...he found that the Browns averaged a head coaching change, every 2.8 yrs in the 14 seasons since returning in 1999. Here is a quote by Mr Haslam from the Peter King article that was published on Aug 7, 2012...
..."One thing I learned from watching the Steelers is the importance of consistency in coaching, and how much it sets you back when you're always making a change. When you change coaches, it can be a three- or four-year deal to get back.''
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.c...my-haslam/index.html
Drawing the obvious parallel to the "early" Steelers (pre 1969), who averaged a head coaching change every 2 years during their first 34 years, the Browns have averaged a head coaching change every 2.8 yrs since 1999.
How frequently the Browns change head coaches, management and front office people has been discussed by Browns fans and most agree with Mr Haslam, that frequent head coaching changes lead to a lack of consistency and continuity in coaching as well as a lack of direction when the management changes often
Welcome to the debate, Mr Haslam !.....
BACK TO THE HISTORY OF THE STEELERS... and my research into how they changed 34 years of mostly failure and losing football...and how they turned it around and became one of the winningest franchises in the NFL.
ENTER CHUCK NOLL....
After changing head coaches an average of approximately every 2 yrs in their first 34 years in the NFL, in 1969, the Steelers changed direction again, replacing HC Bill Austin. Austin had coached the Steelers for 3 seasons, winning 5, 4, and 2 games (66-67-68).
In 1969, Art Rooney's son, Dan, hired Chuck Noll after Joe Paterno turned down the opportunity to become the Steelers HC. Dan Rooney had become more involved in the day to day operations of the Steelers, taking on more of the responsibility of running the team, for his father.
Chuck Noll was born in Cleveland, played football at Benedictine High School where he won all-state honors. Noll was given a scholarship to play at the University of Dayton and was drafted by the Cleveland Browns in 1953 and played LB for the Browns from 53 to 59 under HC, Paul Brown.
In 1959, Noll retired from the game and began a career in coaching in the NFL. His first job was coaching the defensive line of the Chargers (60,61), then he became the defensive coordinator and defensive backfield coach for the Chargers (62-65), then he moved on to the Baltimore Colts where he again was the defensive coordinator and defensive backfield coach for the Colts (66-68). In 1969, Chuck Noll became the 17th head coach of the Steelers in 35 yrs history.
The Steelers team Chuck Noll took over in 1969, won only 2 games in the 1968 season. Also, it needs to be pointed out, the Steelers 1968 roster consisted of mostly free agent players as 31 players of the 50 man roster were NOT DRAFTED by the Steelers. That 1968 Steelers team averaged 3.3 yrs of NFL experience and the average age was 26.4 yrs.
Chuck Noll was given major input in the draft and though it took a few years to realize, Noll would prove to be an excellent judge of talent. Chuck Noll and Dan Rooney, with the approval of Art Rooney decided to transform the Steelers roster from one primarily made up free agents, to a roster of players drafted by the Steelers...in other words, the Steelers under Noll would be built primarily via the draft.
One factor that needs to be mentioned, during the late 60s and early 70s, the NFL draft was "17 rounds" long.
1969, NOLL'S FIRST DRAFT...the Steelers drafted 17 players and 13 rookies made the final roster.
...Notable selections in Noll's first draft were...rnd 1 Joe Green, DT..rnd 2 Terry Hanratty, QB..rnd 2 Warren Bankston, RB..rnd 3 Jon Kolb, OT..rnd 10 LC Greenwood, DE.
...The Steelers final roster going into the 1969 season would consist of 20 players who were NOT DRAFTED by the Steelers.
...The average age of the roster was 25.9 yrs and averaged 3.1 yrs of NFL experience.
...In his first season as HC of the Steelers, Noll's team won 1 game and lost 13 games.
1970, NOLL'S SECOND DRAFT...the Steelers drafted 19 players and again 13 rookies made the final roster.
...Notable selections in Noll's second draft were...rnd 1 Bradshaw, QB...rnd 2 Ron Shanklin, WR...3 rnd Mell Blount, DB...rnd 5 Jon Staggers, WR...rnd 14 Bert Askson, DE
...The average age of the 1970 team was 25.6 while the average years of NFL experience was 2.8 yrs.
...The Steelers won 5 games in Chuck Noll's second season as HC.
1971, NOLL'S THIRD DRAFT... the Steelers had a remarkable 22 draft picks and added 14 more rookies to their roster.
...Notable selections in the 1971 draft were...rnd 1 Frank Lewis, WR...rnd 2 Jack Ham, LB...rnd 3 Steve Davis, RB...rnd 4 Gerry Mullins, G...rnd 4 Dwight White, DE...rnd 5 Larry Brown, T...rnd 8 Ernie Holmes, DT...rnd 11 Mike Wagner, DB
...The average age of the 1971 team was 25.3 while the average years of NFL experience was 2.6 yrs.
...The Steelers won 6 games in Chuck Noll's third season as HC.
...*Note..the Steelers final roster in 1971 consisted of 31 players who were drafted by the Steelers. When Chuck Noll took over in 1969, the roster he inherited had 31 player that were drafted "by other teams" and signed with the Steelers as free agents. In 3 drafts, the Steelers flipped that figure which was a remarkable achievement. The team got younger each year and the experience level declined, but Noll now had a roster of players who were chosen by the Steelers and molded to play the game the way Noll and his coaching staff wanted.
1972, NOLL'S FOURTH DRAFT...the Steelers had 20 draft picks and added 9 more rookies to their final roster.
...Notable selections in the 1972 draft were...rnd 1 Franco Harris, RB...rnd 2 Gordon Gravelle, T...rnd 3 John McMakin, TE...rnd 4 Ed Bradley, LB...rnd 4 Steve Furness, DT...rnd 11 Joe Gilliam, QB.
...The average age of the 1972 team was 25.3 while the average years of NFL experience was 2.7 yrs.
...In 1972 the Steelers went 11-3 in the regular season, winning the AFC central game and losing in the conference championship game, to the Miami Dolphins, 21-17.
...35 players on 1972 Steelers roster were drafted by the Steelers while 15 signed as free agents.
It took Chuck Noll and the Rooneys 4 drafts, a total of 78 draft picks, to transform the Steelers roster from a free agent dominated roster to a roster composed of mainly players drafted by the Steelers and molded to be the type of players Chuck Noll wanted on his team. Also, after 3 losing seasons and 4 drafts, the benefits of building the Steelers roster primarily through the draft, finally produced a winning team.
It had to be tough for the Pittsburgh fans, too, as the Steelers had a string of 8 losing seasons in a row (64-72), before they became winners in 1972....5 losing seasons under HCs Parker, Nixon and Austin, plus the 3 losing seasons under Noll.
What is more important though, looking back at the entire Steelers history, Chuck Noll and the Rooneys laid the foundation that transformed the Steelers from a franchise with a history of decades of losing, to a franchise with a history of decades of winning. They did it by establishing "a plan to rebuild via the draft" and establishing "core principles" that would be followed.
IT'S CALLED THE ROONEY WAY...
...THE DRAFT...first, the Rooney believe in building their team via the draft.
...STABILITY... throughout the organization, from the owner, to the management, to the head coach and the coaching staff..the Rooneys do their best hire good people and they keep them. Change is not something the Rooneys take lightly and they do their best to avoid it. ...they strive for consistency throughout the organization.
...CONTINUITY...everyone in the organization is on the same page and familiar with the system, the system does not change, even if the people do. There are certain characteristics the organization looks for in their players and they look for players to fit that mold...to fit their system.
...LOYALTY...the Rooneys believe in fairness and view the relationship between ownership, management, coaches or players as if they are all family...everyone is respected...over the years and decades, this approach has produced a sense of loyalty from the players, management and the supporting staff as well as all employees throughout the organization.
...FAIRNESS...both, in the way they compensate their players and how they treat everyone in the organization.
...DO IT RIGHT...One of the many articles I read while researching this thread referred to one of the basic beliefs the Rooneys try to apply to every situation or decission they must make... "If it's not right, we don't do it".
One writer summed up the way the Rooney family runs their franchise this way...
....More than by any player or coach, the Steelers are identified by the way they have done business for 40 years. They build through the draft, take care of their players, maintain financial discipline, eschew flashy hires and treat people well.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02....html?emc=eta1&_r=1&
1973 & 1974 DRAFTS...the Steelers continue to draft well after posting their first winning season under Noll in 1972.
...Notable selections...JT Thomas, Lynn Swann, Jack Lambert, John Stallworth and Mike Webster
...42 players on the Steelers 74 roster were drafted by the Steelers.
...In 1974, the Steelers regular season record was 10-3-1 and they won their first Super Bowl.
SUMMARY...It took the Steelers 4 drafts to lay the foundation turned the Steelers into winners... but it took two more drafts of adding quality players at key positions to build that 1974 Super Bowl winning team.
It took the Steelers a total of 6 yrs and 6 draft classes plus a commitment to stick to the plan that the Rooneys and Chuck Noll developed to build a Super Bowl winning team.
That plan, at it's core, comes down to the basic principles of building the roster via THE DRAFT..creating STABILITY and CONTINUITY by understanding that "change" is not a positive but a negative and applies to both the coaching staff as well as in management...FAIRNESS, in the way they treat their players as well as employees and management....and DO IT RIGHT, If it's not right, the Steelers don't do it.
Even more importantly, the basic principles the Rooneys and Noll relied on to turn their franchise around, have stood the test of time. It sounds easy, but it all comes down to the type of owner a franchise has. These days, inexperienced, impatient owners seem to cave to the fan and media pressure to "change something" if the team is losing, even if it's the wrong thing to do.
Most in the media as well as the average Pro football fan, do not understand how damaging "change" can be to an NFL franchise.
It takes courage and a commitment from ownership to stick with a plan and resist the temptation to begin making changes before "the plan" is completed.
Does Jimmy Haslam have that kind of courage and leadership?
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THE CLEVELAND BROWNS...
As I mentioned earlier, since 1999, the Browns owners and management have done just what that early Steelers did, from 1933 to 1969...change everything and start over every 2.8 yrs.
From the Browns first head coach...
...Chris Palmer (1999,2000), who had only 2 yrs to try to put a team together...to..
...Butch Davis (2001-2004), who had early success leading the Browns to their only playoff appearance in 2002, only to see his team lose 11 games the next season. In 2004, Butch Davis resigned after his team posted a 3-8 record...to..
...Romeo Crennel (2005-2008), who had one outstanding season in the 3rd yr only to see his team lose 12 games the following year...to..
...Eric Mangini (2009,2010) who had two seasons as HC...to..
...Pat Shurmur (2011, 2012) who had the misfortune to take over in a lockout year.
In 2009, Browns owner, Randy Lerner, hired Eric Mangini, who had been the HC of the Jets
but was fired just days before Lerner hired him as the Browns HC, making Mangini the 4th Browns HC in 10 yrs. George Kokinis was hired as the Browns new General Manager. Mangini showed a fondness for his ex-Jets players and several were signed by the Browns in 2009 as free agents. Also, in early Oct 2009, Braylon Edwards, the Browns 1st round pick in 2005 was traded to the Jets for two Jets players and two draft picks.
George Kokinis was fired from his GM position in the middle of the 2009 season and the position stayed open the rest of the year. The team won 5 games in 2009 and before the season was over, Randy Lerner began interviewing prospects to become the President of the Browns. In Dec. 2009, Mike Holmgren was named to the position, taking over in Jan. 2010.
One of the first hires Holmgren mafe was Tom Heckert (Eagles) as the Browns new GM. The 2009 roster that Heckert and Holmgren took over in Jan. 2010 consisted of more than half being free agents. Only 25 of the players listed on that 2009 roster were players drafted by the Browns.
Does this scenario sound familiar?...Go check out the Steelers roster Chuck Noll took over in 1969.
After rejoining the NFL in 1999 and changing HCs 4 times in 10 yrs, the Browns roster was a mess, consisting of a majority being free agents.
In early 2010,Holmgren and Heckert began a 5 yr plan to rebuild the Browns roster via the draft and though Eric Mangini was retained as HC, the draft responsibility now belonged to Tom Heckert.
2010 DRAFT...the Browns had 8 draft picks and 7 rookies were added to the final roster.
...Notable picks...rnd 1 Joe Haden, CB...rnd 2 TJ Ward, S...rnd 2 Montario Hardesty, RB...rnd 3 Colt McCoy, QB...rnd 3 Shawn Lauvao, OG
...The average age of the 2010 team was 27.5 while the average years of NFL experience was 4.2 yrs.
...The 2010 Browns went 5-11in Eric Mangini's second season as HC.
ENTER PAT SHURMUR...as the Browns 5th head coach in 13 years, replacing Eric Mangini. Dick Jauron took over as defensive coordinator as the Browns replaced the coaching staff in Holmgren's second year as President of the Browns. It must be noted that the rebuilding of the team's roster via the draft was not affected by the fact that Mangini coached the 2010 team. Heckert was in control of the 2010 draft as he focused on adding talent to the defensive backfield with the top two picks of that draft.
2011 DRAFT...the Browns again had 8 draft picks, all making the Browns final roster. Also, the Browns added 14 free agent rookies to that 2011 roster.
...Notable picks...rnd1 Phil Taylor, DT...rnd 2 Jabaaal Sheard, DE...rnd 2 Greg Little, WR...rnd 4 Jordan Cameron, TE
...The average age of the 2011 team 25.7 and the average years of NFL experience was 2.6 yrs.
...The Browns roster had 19 free agents and 41 players who had drafted by or signed as rookie free agents, by the Browns.
...the 2011 Browns went 4-12 under Pat Shurmur and the new coaching staff.
...*Note..in Pat Shurmur's first year as the Browns HC, the NFL locked the players out on March 11, 2011. The Browns new coaching staff would forced to install a new offensive and defensive system without being allowed to contact players until the contract issues were resolved in late July. The 4 month lockout put the coaching staff behind at a time when the roster was transitioning to a younger, less experienced roster, in terms of NFL experience.
2012 DRAFT...the Browns had 11 draft picks with a total 16 rookies added to the roster.
...Notable draft picks...rnd 1 Trent Richardson, RB...rnd 1 Brandon Weeden, QB...rnd 2 Mich Schwartz, OT...rnd 3 John Hughes, DT...rnd 4 Travis Benjamin, WR. The Browns also added Josh Gordon, WR, in round 2 of the NFL's supplemental draft.
...The average age of the 2012 team 25.3 and the average year of NFL experience was 2.7 yrs.
...Only 15 players on the Browns roster were not signed by the Browns while the roster inherited by Mike Holmgren and Tom Heckert showed 39 players who were signed as free agents, not drafted by the Browns.
The simularities between the Pittsburgh team Chuck Knoll took over in 1969 and the Cleveland Browns team Mike Holmgren and Tom Heckert took over in 2010, are REMARKABLE....
1...The Steelers, prior to Noll, were changing HCs approx every 2 yrs, thus continuity and consistancy were destroyed. The Steelers suffered through 34 years of constant change and managed to make the playoffs 1 time during that period.
...The Browns team that Holmgren and Heckert took over changed HCs every 2.8 yrs since returning to the NFL in 1999. One of the reasons Holmgren stuck with Mangini as HC that first year was an attempt to avoid the changes that literally destroy a team's chances to win.
2...The Steelers team Noll inherited was dominated by free agents players who were not originally drafted by the Steelers.
...The Browns team that Holmgren and Heckert took over suffered from the same issue, a roster dominated by free agent players.
Stopping the coaching merry-go-round and building a roster of players that are drafted to fit the offensive and defensive systems being played are two basic elements of the rebuilding process started by Noll and the rebuilding process started by Holmgren/Heckert.
3...The rebuilding plan used by Chuck Noll and the Rooneys was not a quick fix...it took 4 yrs and 4 drafts before the Steelers produced a winning team. Drafting young players, then allowing them the time (years)needed to learn the system and gain experience were key elements of the Noll rebuilding process.
...The rebuilding plan started by Holmgren, Heckert and Randy Lerner is not designed to be a "quick fix"..matter of fact, Holmgren and Heckert have said their plan is a 5 yr plan. This season is just the 3rd year of the Browns rebuilding plan, with two more drafts and the 2013 and 2014 seasons ahead, before the plan is completed.
I'm sure many were ready to fire Chuck Noll after the Steelers won only one game in 1969. Also, the Art and an Rooney likely took a lot of heat from the media as well as from their fan base when Chuck Noll's team posted two more seasons with a losing record.
The Steelers fan base can thank the football gods that Art and Dan Rooney did not cave in to the media and fan pressure and fire Chuck Noll when their rebuilding plan produced nothing but 3 more losing seasons.
The Rooneys knew they were signing on to more years of losing when they started their rebuilding plan but they trusted that Chuck Noll and his coaching staff would be able to teach and build the young team they drafted into a winner.
It must be noted, the Steelers did not dedicate the top picks in their draft to the offense or defense, but drafted for both sides in each draft. In the first draft, the Steelers took DT Joe Greene with their first pick, then took QB Terry Hanratty and RB Warren Bankston in the 2nd round followed by OT Jon Kolb in the third round. In the 1970 draft, the Steelers drafted another QB with the first pick, then a WR, a DB.
Also, the Steelers didn't always pick the right guy the first time around either..for example, drafting QB Terry Hanratty in the 2nd round of the 1969 draft only to follow up the very next year drafting QB Terry Bradshaw with very 1st pick of the 1970 draft, (courtesy of their 1-13 record in 69).
Comparing the Browns method of building via the draft, Heckert focused on the defensive backfield with the top two picks of the 2010 draft, then the defensive line (DE, DT) in the 2011 draft, then in 2012 Heckert switched the focus to the offensive side of the ball drafting a RB and QB in round 1 followed by a RT in rnd 2, then drafting DT in rnd 3. The Browns also added another WR in the supplemental draft, with a 2nd round pick.
In my research I remember one of the Rooneys making the comment, referring to the draft, summing it up, saying "there are no guarantees". The key is, the Steelers didn't let anything get in the way of rebuilding their team via the draft and choosing players who best fit their system. If they didn't get the quality of player they wanted in a particular draft, they would go right back and draft for the same position the next year.
That kind of courage and dedication to "a plan" is rare, in this day and age...
I'm left wondering, what did Mr Jimmy Haslam learn in his 3 yrs as a minority owner of the Steelers?
Will Mr Haslam bring " The Rooney Way " to the Browns?
OR, will Mr Haslam begin his tenure by firing Mike Holmgren and bring in a rash of changes, proving to be no different than the very owners he criticized for changing HCs every 2.8 yrs?
I hope Mr Haslam brings "The Rooney Way" to Cleveland and has the fortitude and courage to resist "change".
I hope Mr Haslam continues the rebuilding project that was started in 2010, which is now in year 3 of the 5 year plan.
Who am I ?...just a lifelong Browns fan, since 1961, when Dad and I would watch our Browns on TV every Sunday afternoon.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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Good gosh man, nobody is going to read all of that.
You want your stuff read, keep it to a minimum.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Legend
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peen...if you are not willing to read about NFL history...you will never learn NFL history.
Don't criticize me because I took the time research how the Steelers turned their franchise around and how the Browns are just beginning that process.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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Dude, just stop.
You're embarrassing yourself.
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Hall of Famer
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I am all for continuity, as long as good people are in charge. Continuity with clowns in charge leads to Matt Millen and 0-16. Making the right hire in the first place goes a long way towards helping with continuity. I'm not going to pretend to have read that long post before and Chuck Noll was before my time but both Cowher and Tomlin had immediate success. Both are obviously good coaches. My opinion is Shurmur wasn't, and I understand and took into consideration that he was put into some uniquely bad situations that were out of his control, but his schemes were outdated, game day decisions were worth probably -2 wins per year, and the least inspirational leader in the NFL. Look around the modern NFL. Most tenured coaches had success within the first 2 seasons. Some are in the gray area and some took 3. Most of the rest of the coaches are in their first or second seasons. That's just the way it goes in the Not For Long. A new coach doesn't have to mean a rebuild. Just go down the list... Belichick 2nd season SB champs, Rex Ryan AFC Championship game first 2 seasons, Harbaugh in playoffs just about every year, Tomlin 2nd season SB champs, Marvin Lewis in playoffs 2nd or 3rd season (unheard of at the time for Bengals), the rest are 1st or 2nd year coaches.. and that's just the AFC East and AFC North. Actually there are a lot of coaches who have the most success EARLY on with their teams then dropoff towards the end. Here is a video for you... http://www.youtube.com/v/nf2nrX3H9nITime for me to go take a nap.
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Legend
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Quote:
Dude, just stop.
You're embarrassing yourself.
Thanks 
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Dawg Talker
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The only thing you "take the time" to do is post articles instead of articulating your opinion. You can bring things up that I even agree with from time to time, but since you just copy and paste your feelings 24/7, you lose myself and others in a mess of print trying to comprehend what you're saying in ten pages of newspaper columns.
I'm leery of Banner, myself, but constant references to him as "the bean counter" (even if true) come off as immature and will detract from why people have trepidation about him.
Politicians are puppets, y'all. Let's get Geppetto!
Formerly 4yikes2yoshi0
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i think this came from what i heard on espn
i heard someone from espn say the scouts were not happy with the browns trading down....scouts said this is not how they would do it..
I`m good with Baker... Playoffs is good enough for me.
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Can you rephrase this please? I don't understand what you're saying.
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Quote:
i think this came from what i heard on espn
i heard someone from espn say the scouts were not happy with the browns trading down....scouts said this is not how they would do it..
Do you mean that the scouts wanted the Browns to trade down?
Frankly, if the Browns feel that Mingo is going to be a great player, then I have no problem with them staying pat and taking him.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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scouts were mad we traded down....
they said that they would not of drafted like we did
I`m good with Baker... Playoffs is good enough for me.
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Quote:
scouts were mad we traded down....
they said that they would not of drafted like we did
The Browns didn't trade down though ..... except for the trade for Bess.
Other than that we traded up for 2 future draft picks.
We kept, and used our 1st and 3rd round picks. We traded our 4th for a future 3rd, and our 5th for a future 4th. We then used our 6th and both 7ht rounders. I don't see where we traded down.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Dude, just stop.
You're embarrassing yourself.
Yeah, the guy who posted a thoughtful history of the NFL is embarrassing himself more than the guy who posted an asinine 2 line post.
Right.
If any of you are looking for something more contemporary than the '69 Steelers, who are still a relevant comparison, look to Houston, who decided to stick with Kubiak despite multiple years of mediocrity.
That continuity now has them pegged as a perennial contender in the AFC.
Proud fan of the Pulaski Academy football strategy.
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i think this came from what i heard on espn
i heard someone from espn say the scouts were not happy with the browns trading down....scouts said this is not how they would do it..
Im confused about how we traded down?
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I'm not going to pretend to have read that long post before and Chuck Noll was before my time but both Cowher and Tomlin had immediate success.
hasu...Chuck Noll was before your time?...maybe you should take the time to read my post. 
Do you have a clue why Cowher and Tomlin had immediate success?
...I'll even give you a hint.. it wasn't because they were great coaches the first year as a HC.
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Look around the modern NFL. Most tenured coaches had success within the first 2 seasons.
hasu...modern NFL?
So you were looking for the quick fix...
I'm a fan of building for long term success...so we are not likely to agree on much.
How many of those tenured coaches faced a roster like the 2009 Browns roster Holmgren and Heckert took over? A roster with over half consisting of overpaid, under performing free agents...
The Browns 2009 roster is very comparable to the Steelers 1968 roster Chuck Noll took over...if you read my post, you might learn that fact.
Teams building for the long term don't win in two years when rebuilding a roster via the draft.
The good news is, Haslam wants to continue what Lerner and Holmgren started...continue building the Browns roster via the draft. Smart choice by Haslam...especially knowing the toughest years of such a rebuilding plan are the first 3 seasons, 2010, 2011 and 2012.
If Chud is successful, coaching the Browns to a winning season in two years, he will owe a lot to Holmgren and Heckert.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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The only thing you "take the time" to do is post articles instead of articulating your opinion. You can bring things up that I even agree with from time to time, but since you just copy and paste your feelings 24/7, you lose myself and others in a mess of print trying to comprehend what you're saying in ten pages of newspaper columns.
4yikes...aaahhh...hmmm...how do I tell you this...
WILL THE HASLAM WAY = THE ROONEY WAY...this is "my post"...not a cut and paste article.
4yikes...yep, that is "me" articulating my opinion...
I wrote it in Oct 2012 and it was posted on the Cleveland Browns message board...
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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i think this came from what i heard on espn
i heard someone from espn say the scouts were not happy with the browns trading down....scouts said this is not how they would do it..
Not for nothing, but some of those scouts have been here for anywhere from 4 to 8 seasons.. What was our record during that time?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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The only thing you "take the time" to do is post articles instead of articulating your opinion. You can bring things up that I even agree with from time to time, but since you just copy and paste your feelings 24/7, you lose myself and others in a mess of print trying to comprehend what you're saying in ten pages of newspaper columns.
4yikes...aaahhh...hmmm...how do I tell you this...
WILL THE HASLAM WAY = THE ROONEY WAY...this is "my post"...not a cut and paste article.
4yikes...yep, that is "me" articulating my opinion...
I wrote it in Oct 2012 and it was posted on the Cleveland Browns message board...
Well to be fair here, WILL THE HASLAM WAY = THE ROONEY WAY isn't an opinion, it's a question..
The answer is, which "Rooney Way" do you wish to emulate?
Art Rooney, the owner or Dan Rooneys Brother (who's name escapes me) who actually took his original cues from Chuck Noll thus the beginning of a dynasty.
So which Rooney Way do you speak of?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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i think this came from what i heard on espn
i heard someone from espn say the scouts were not happy with the browns trading down....scouts said this is not how they would do it..
Im confused about how we traded down?
I think he is trying to say how we gave up our picks in the 4th and 5th rounds for picks in next year's draft. I know that isn't trading down, but I think that is what he means.
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ahh, I can totally see why that irk's some people.
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The only thing you "take the time" to do is post articles instead of articulating your opinion. You can bring things up that I even agree with from time to time, but since you just copy and paste your feelings 24/7, you lose myself and others in a mess of print trying to comprehend what you're saying in ten pages of newspaper columns.
4yikes...aaahhh...hmmm...how do I tell you this...
WILL THE HASLAM WAY = THE ROONEY WAY...this is "my post"...not a cut and paste article.
4yikes...yep, that is "me" articulating my opinion...
I wrote it in Oct 2012 and it was posted on the Cleveland Browns message board...
Well to be fair here, WILL THE HASLAM WAY = THE ROONEY WAY isn't an opinion, it's a question..
The answer is, which "Rooney Way" do you wish to emulate?
Art Rooney, the owner or Dan Rooneys Brother (who's name escapes me) who actually took his original cues from Chuck Noll thus the beginning of a dynasty.
So which Rooney Way do you speak of?
daman...if you read the post...you will be able to answer the question yourself...it is explained in the post.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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The only thing you "take the time" to do is post articles instead of articulating your opinion. You can bring things up that I even agree with from time to time, but since you just copy and paste your feelings 24/7, you lose myself and others in a mess of print trying to comprehend what you're saying in ten pages of newspaper columns.
4yikes...aaahhh...hmmm...how do I tell you this...
WILL THE HASLAM WAY = THE ROONEY WAY...this is "my post"...not a cut and paste article.
4yikes...yep, that is "me" articulating my opinion...
I wrote it in Oct 2012 and it was posted on the Cleveland Browns message board...
Well to be fair here, WILL THE HASLAM WAY = THE ROONEY WAY isn't an opinion, it's a question..
The answer is, which "Rooney Way" do you wish to emulate?
Art Rooney, the owner or Dan Rooneys Brother (who's name escapes me) who actually took his original cues from Chuck Noll thus the beginning of a dynasty.
So which Rooney Way do you speak of?
daman...if you read the post...you will be able to answer the question yourself...it is explained in the post.
As Peen pointed out, most of us come here for quick info, we don't come here to read a freakin novella..
A quick answer is all that's required. I'm really not trying to rag on you. Really I'm not, but you posed the question, I want to know what you think not what a group of reporters have to say.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Dude, just stop.
You're embarrassing yourself.
Yeah, the guy who posted a thoughtful history of the NFL is embarrassing himself more than the guy who posted an asinine 2 line post.
Right.
Exactly what kind of response do you find satisfactory for a long-winded rant that claims that the single best example of comparison for the 1999-2013 Cleveland Browns is the 1969 Pittsburgh Steelers?
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hasu...Chuck Noll was before your time?...maybe you should take the time to read my post.
Do you have a clue why Cowher and Tomlin had immediate success?
...I'll even give you a hint.. it wasn't because they were great coaches the first year as a HC.
I know the history of the Browns and its rivals very well. If you ever read my posts you will find that I explain things very clearly and often give relevant examples. Can I give that extremely accurate picture of that time period? No, I can't. I will read your post in more depth but it may take a few days and realize that there are 31 other current franchises to model after and hundreds of coaches since then. As I've said before, it is easy to have continuity when you are successful. Even Chuck Noll's Steelers improved every year in the first 4.
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hasu...modern NFL?
So you were looking for the quick fix...
I wasn't looking for the quick fix. I do feel that, barring some unforeseen disaster, every coach should get a minimum of 2 years. Most probably 3 minimum. But there should be good strides in year 2. Getting a little closer in games only to lose them due to being haplessly unprepared is making progress in some areas and regressing in others.
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I'm a fan of building for long term success...so we are not likely to agree on much.
We are unlikely to agree on much because while you say that you are a fan of building for long term success, your opinions seem to suggest otherwise.
Case in point: You were among those who were critical of the current regime for trading 4th and 5th round picks for 3rd and 4th round picks next year. Essentially we traded a 5th round pick for a 3rd round pick in next year's supposedly stronger draft, with the caveat that we have to wait 1 year to use the two picks. But we must fill all of these needs NOW, you say. Think about this for a few minutes and then tell me that you are not being hopelessly inconsistent with your logic.
I would even extend that to the regime/coaching change. That is, I think that keeping Heckert and Shurmur the Browns would figure to do better in 2013 than making the change, just on the grounds that there are often some growing pains when changing new schemes. From 2014 and thereafter, I think the Browns are in better hands now. You can imply that I am an instant gratification type of guy but quite simply you are wrong.
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How many of those tenured coaches faced a roster like the 2009 Browns roster Holmgren and Heckert took over? A roster with over half consisting of overpaid, under performing free agents...
The Browns 2009 roster is very comparable to the Steelers 1968 roster Chuck Noll took over...if you read my post, you might learn that fact.
Teams building for the long term don't win in two years when rebuilding a roster via the draft.
The good news is, Haslam wants to continue what Lerner and Holmgren started...continue building the Browns roster via the draft. Smart choice by Haslam...especially knowing the toughest years of such a rebuilding plan are the first 3 seasons, 2010, 2011 and 2012.
If Chud is successful, coaching the Browns to a winning season in two years, he will owe a lot to Holmgren and Heckert.
Let me make this perfectly clear: I hate changing coaches every 2 years. It is the result of organizational dysfunction starting from ownership. I remember saying a long, long time ago that I wanted the owner to spend money and then stay the heck away. I would probably amend that second part to staying the heck away from making personnel and strategy decisions specifically. And one of the most important things an owner can do is hire the right head coach. It is MUCH more important to hire the right guy than it is to show unquestioned loyalty to the wrong one. I don't want to beat every dead horse out there but Crennel got 4 years, Mangini probably got a little screwed, and we saw everything we needed to see from Shurmur in 2 years. just my opinions
Personally I am a fan of Joe Banner. He is a very smart and motivated individual. In fact, a lot of the things he has said and done are specifically things that I said I would have done before he was ever hired. Trading up a round in the next draft, his comments about multiple QBs, maximizing value in various contexts, and using statistical analysis/game models to optimize strategy decisions are a short list of examples of things that I have talked about before he ever came on board. So that's a good start-- (hopefully) having continuity at the top.
And hopefully he hired the right coach who can stay here for 10 or more years. I like what I see so far.
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Yeah, the guy who posted a thoughtful history of the NFL is embarrassing himself more than the guy who posted an asinine 2 line post.
Right.
If any of you are looking for something more contemporary than the '69 Steelers, who are still a relevant comparison, look to Houston, who decided to stick with Kubiak despite multiple years of mediocrity.
That continuity now has them pegged as a perennial contender in the AFC.
Whether anyone agrees with mac's post or not, he did articulate it well and backed up his theory with links as well as his own breakdown.
Just because people don't actually have the patience to read and note the comparisons are their fault, not mac's. They got what they asked for and then complain anyway.
I understand that often times this generation thinks you can explain and say everything with "160 characters or less", but that's the furthest thing from the truth.
jmho
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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And since when does typing "Will the Haslem way = The Rooney Way?" above said long-winded rant qualify as articulating an opinion?
Politicians are puppets, y'all. Let's get Geppetto!
Formerly 4yikes2yoshi0
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I hear what you are saying, but he did a great job of articulating something that had no foundation.
It's like a politician who is a master pontificator, yet says absolutely nothing. The real truth is not found in expounding and articulating.
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j/c I know the rule on using Twitter but I just couldn't resist this one from MaryKay. Apparently Sandusky has one heck of a long contract. 
#GMSTRONG
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All I know is that we have the best coaching staff since 1999. They have the right philosphy and they are all united. The Front Office seems to behind them 100% and they seem inteligent and not swayed by public opinion that much.
If our Owner can stay out of jail and keep this FO and coaching team together for a bit then I think we will be perrinial playoff contenders starting in a year or two.
Can you just imagine what it will mean to Chud and to Cleveland if he is the one to restore us to winning or the heavens align and he takes us to an AFC championship? We would go insane! If he took us to the superbowl then you better lock up the cops cause the town is gonna ROCK it!
You can't fix stupid but you can destroy ignorance. When you destroy ignorance you remove the justifications for evil. If you want to destroy evil then educate our people. Hate is a tool of the stupid to deal with what they can't understand.
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Dude, just stop.
You're embarrassing yourself.
Yeah, the guy who posted a thoughtful history of the NFL is embarrassing himself more than the guy who posted an asinine 2 line post.
Right.
If any of you are looking for something more contemporary than the '69 Steelers, who are still a relevant comparison, look to Houston, who decided to stick with Kubiak despite multiple years of mediocrity.
That continuity now has them pegged as a perennial contender in the AFC.
Spot on. I thought it was a very good post. I have maintained for years that changing coaches & GMs every 2-3 years can't work but apparently we fans know, sometimes even after one pre-season game, that the currents coach is worthless. Noll would have been sent packing after winning 3 games in 2 years.
I don't think much of Banner or Lombardi, but I am willing to give them more time than the predecessors had.
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CLEVELAND, Ohio -- The shakeup of the Browns' personnel staff continued Wednesday as Director of College Scouting John Spytek was fired along with two pro scouts.
Spytek, who had a year remaining on his contract, was let go after declining a reduced with the club, a source said. Spytek, who had been with the team since 2010, was one of former General Manager Tom Heckert's two right-hand men. The other, Director of Player Personnel Jon Sandusky, has not been let go and has a year remaining on his contract.
Two other pro scouts, A.J. Durso and Tom Headlee, were fired. Both had a year left on their contracts and both came here from the Seahawks, where they worked with former Browns President Mike Holmgren.
Spytek and other key members of Heckert's staff had no direct say in the team's draft decisions last week and many weren't in the "war room."
Spytek and Sandusky both previous worked with the Philadelphia Eagles, where they worked under Heckert and Browns CEO Joe Banner, the former Eagles president.
If Spytek or the others are hired by a team this season, the Browns will only have to pay the difference in the salaries.
Earlier in the week, Senior National Scout Pat Roberts, hired by former GM Phil Savage and had been with the team for eight years, left after the Browns did not renew his contract. Two weeks ago, college area scout Bob Welton left to take over as the University of Tennessee's director of player personnel.
It's common for members of the holdover staff to be let go after the draft.
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Sandusky has been here for a while...I think before Heckert ??? No sure of course.
mac...thanks for the time spent. Not sure of the timing of some of the rebuild. All I know is we never had a Drafted foundation in all of the regime changes.
Possibly cause Heckert thought he had job security to finally bite the bullet n not try quick fixes n band aids to pull together a winning season n then be of course in cap trouble scrambling again. With Holmgren as the Owner/Csar responsibilities he did think he had job security to get the job done for a Long term result. Of course that turned pretty quick which shows there is no such thing as job security.
Now I do think the current duo of Banner/Lombardi equally feel they have job security as well. Haslam just bought the team.
Now of course there is this FBI/IRS thing going on...man o man what if he has to sell the team? we get new owners n the same - I THOUGHT WE HAD JOB SECURITY happens to Banner/Lombardi  won't worry about it till it happens.
But the one thing Mac - missing in your comparison n I'll be honest - I didn't read the entire post, skimmed through most of it...coming of course from a long winded poster...lol 
But missing of course is the "CONTINUITY" factor for the build up to take root n grow.
I'm happy this new regime hasn't thrown away the First time Draft Foundation n instead has embraced it n looking to nurture those who show promise. In doing so they are saving about 2 years in the 5 year process. We should be able to do this within 3 years. Looking forward to Year ONE! 
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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But missing of course is the "CONTINUITY" factor for the build up to take root n grow.
Exactly.
Continuity does not mean keeping everything that was in place just for the sake of keeping it. It means building on a solid foundation for the long term. It means having a philosophy and keeping it in place so that the entire organization knows what players fit, and which don't.
Look at Jarvis Jones in this draft. What team was he most linked to? The Steelers. Why? Because he is the "prototypical" Steelers OLB. I hope that we got a better one in Mingo, but the Steelers have huge experience finding those kind of guys.
I look forward to seeing us 5 years from now, with "Cleveland Browns" players in place across the board, and a philosophy that is burned in and ingrained in the team from top to bottom. I am so sick and tired of changing what we are, and what we want to be, every 2 years. It's no wonder that we have struggled.
I see the long term future of this team being such a nice meld of other successful teams ....... an attacking offense that has proved successful in San Diego and other places ..... an attacking defense that has been so effective in Pittsburgh and with other teams ...... and the draft philosophy of the Patriots of trading picks for value when possible.
That's my kind of continuity. I can't wait to see where we'll be in 5 years.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I can't wait to see where we'll be in 5 years.
Hopefully in year 2 or 3 of the next NFL "dynasty"...
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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I can't wait to see where we'll be in 5 years.
Hopefully in year 2 or 3 of the next NFL "dynasty"...
Wouldn't that be nice?
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Now of course there is this FBI/IRS thing going on...man o man what if he has to sell the team?
I seriously doubt it will come to that. I think the worst case is Haslam is convicted and goes to jail but with his personal fortune intact he leaves the Browns to his wife or children to take over and let's Banner run the show.
Much like what happened to Eddie Debartolo and the 9ers.
Family stepped into the breach then, I suspect they will this time as well.
Again, that's the worst case as I see it. The best case, Haslam is cleared of all wrong doing and he pays to clean up what is owed his customers at PFJ and life goes on as before.
But that's all JMO
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I can't wait to see where we'll be in 5 years.
Hopefully in year 2 or 3 of the next NFL "dynasty"...
Wouldn't that be nice?
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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down and later, i guess kinda mixed in meaning....for the 2013 draft....if its 2014 draft its kinda down/ later....so to speak...lol. if you trade up in draft its earlier....if its down its later.....not usually a whole year later......its just a play on words i guess
i dont hate getting steelers 3rd for our 4th....except our 4th and their 3rd might just be 10 picks away....worst case of coarse
i didnt say i hated it...i said the scouts hated it. they spent alot of time pointing to their guy and then lambardi said maybe next year.
I`m good with Baker... Playoffs is good enough for me.
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