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The truth is Lerner & now Haslam are pocketing that cap space to boost their profits while we unconditionally support this team.
Rule #1 when preparing to sell a business... make the bottom line incredibly attractive.
How do you do that in the NFL? Carry close to the cap minimum salary and sell it to the public as building through the Draft.
Rule #1 when buying a business, recoup part of your investment as early as you can while you work through what you need to work on.
Translation to the NFL: don't break the bank building the roster.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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As far as the salary cap...the Browns have been $20-30M under the salary cap for at least 3 years. Each regime says they are going to field a competitive team, but we see where that has gotten us. I'm tired of taking advantage of and blatantly lied to! The truth is Lerner & now Haslam are pocketing that cap space to boost their profits while we unconditionally support this team.
You have to be kidding ... Right 
John 3:16 Jesus said "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
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Great spot for him, when you're with the team that has Peyton Manning, the pressure cools a bit. It's when you're with a franchise that averages 4-6 wins every year that you're being grilled about every little thing (at least from the outside)
It cools a bit, but Peyton isn't getting any younger. They're going to have to find a new QB soon.
The good news for him is that as Director of Pro Personnel, that won't likely be his job to worry about.
No, but at the very least, that buys him all kinds of time.
I wish we had that time. Our guys are already being run out of town and they haven't even played a game yet!
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This just gets bettered and bettered! YTown, you are a crowdpleezin' dawg! Priceless. . . . 
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
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My philosophy is to screw up royally when you make a mistake ...... and revel in your royalty. 
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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As far as the salary cap...the Browns have been $20-30M under the salary cap for at least 3 years.
baller97
Not sure what we were under the cap last season - it would be nice if you verified that as a fact 20-30 mil under the cap???
2011 I am pretty sure there was NO CAP so I don't see how the claim is possible.
2009 n 2010 under two different regimes I am pretty sure we were around 10 mil or less under the Cap. Not for sure but my recollection. If my recollection is off please correct me.
Just a bit confused.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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He is replacing the guy "KIDD" who as was explained to Mac...now is the time that that part of the FO (scouts et al) have their fiscal contractual terminate - he had a similar title n they did not renew his contract.
Was given the Chiefs job but Heckert knew Reid would have final say.
Don't want to start a war, but both those statements are simply not true. He is not Denver's GM [by any language you wanna use nor was he ever given the Chief's GM job.
Come on, tab. I know you love the guy.........but, daggone man.
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Losing Heckert for Lombardi was a huge down grade for the team.
Heckert consistantly added good young talent to a team void of talent when he arrived. Mike Lombardi has been a train wreck of a GM for 20+ years. Very sad!!!
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I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Man, can we see how a couple of drafts turn out before we bury the guy completely?
I like what the Browns have done this off-season. A lot.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Man, can we see how a couple of drafts turn out before we bury the guy completely?
Yes, and no.
His track record is his track record. And it sucks.
Whether we like it or not, however, he has a chance to start turning it around and for our sake I hope that he does. Again, however, looking at his track record, I wouldn't be holding my breath.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Well, yes and no.
Lombardi is not the final word on anything. He is one voice in the front office. In our system, Lombardi has a voice .... Banner has a voice ...... Chud has a voice ....... Farmer has a voice ....... and any one voice can veto a player. That gives me hope that Lombardi's influence can be moderated, and the process can be a successful one.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Eotab, What I said about the Browns lack of spending shouldn't be earth-shattering news. It is widely known that the Browns have been way under the cap for years. Below are a couple of links with Browns salary cap numbers for 2009, 2011, 2012, and 2013. I believe 2010 was uncapped so very little info on the "salary cap". As of today, the Browns are $30+ million under the cap. In my opinion, Lerner directed Heckert & Holmgren to spend less to boost profits and to recover the money wasted on fired coaches/GMs. Browns 2009 Salary Cap Figures Browns 2011 Salary Cap Figures Browns 2012 Salary Cap FiguresBrowns 2013 Salary Cap Figures
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I don't agree with that about Haslem. Just because we didn't BLOW all our cap space doesn't mean he is looking for profits. I'm no owner or GM and I would under no terms eat the cap in one year. That would be lunacy!!!!
Just because a big name is out there doesn't mean ya go get them. Grimes is the only guy we looked at that I hoped we would sign. We done more in one year of FA that the previous regime did in three!
You dont have to win every game just the next one!
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The Browns can also use that cap space to carry forward into future seasons. They have to hit the minimums as far as cap spending and cash spending, but anything over those minimums can be used into future seasons.
Now I don't know why Lerner didn't spend a lot ..... was it because he was playing it cheap .... or was it because he wanted to try and build the team in the right way? There is no way to know for sure. Lerner certainly has never been cheap in the past. He spent the money to bring in Holmgren, in addition to doing whatever Holmgren wanted to do to change up scouting, and adding coaching personnel, and so on, Lerner spent money everywhere else, so I find it difficult to believe that he suddenly decided to go cheap on players. I think that he hired Holmgren, put him in charge, and went along with Holmgren's "build through the draft" ideas. in conjunction with Heckert running personnel.
Now we could have thrown money blindly into the team for personnel ..... but would that be an improvement? Would spending just for the sake of spending have been the best way to go? We could have added a few other players, but obviously the front office felt that they would be better off spending in a few areas, and then working with what they have this season. They can evaluate players in these new offensive and defensive systems this year, and then see where we need to upgrade. That makes a lot of sense to me.
Obviously you think that it's a matter of the Browns somehow being cheap. I disagree. I am glad that they are taking a measured approach to this season, instead of just dumping everyone from the past administration overboard and starting again from scratch. Would you rather they had taken that tact?
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Losing Heckert for Lombardi was a huge down grade for the team.
Heckert consistantly added good young talent to a team void of talent when he arrived. Mike Lombardi has been a train wreck of a GM for 20+ years. Very sad!!!
That is your opinion. It is also the opinion of many dawgs on the board. However, it certainly isn't a fact. When a team goes 14 and 34 and does not improve it's win total by even a single game from the previous regime in three years while other teams like Seattle and SF have become powerhouses---well, you have no proof that he was better than the current FO.
Heckert did bring in some talented young players, but there are other guys on this roster that may be young, but they are not talented and wouldn't make most other rosters.
If Heckert was as great as you guys say, he would have been hired immediately for a GM job. He wasn't and has been forced to accept a lesser position. I understand I am in the minority, but I am thankful that the H and H era is over and we have new guys in here.
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...When a team goes 14 and 34 and does not improve it's win total...
That is a fact beyond dispute. However, with the improving talent/potential that was added each year, primarily through the draft, it does pose the obvious question: Why? Certainly inexperience and the necessary time to acquire experience to better utilize the skills/talent is a factor. However, the "stagnation" of the win total reeks of coaching/scheme...which reflects back on the FO. Whether Shurmur would have been replaced by the previous regime after year 2 or 3, we'll never know.
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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However, it certainly isn't a fact. When a team goes 14 and 34 and does not improve it's win total by even a single game from the previous regime in three years while other teams like Seattle and SF have become powerhouses---well, you have no proof that he was better than the current FO.
vers...this is getting old...your 14-34 comment about the Browns record during the first 3 yrs of the rebuilding process....a complete tear down and rebuild, via the draft !
What was the Steelers record the first 3 yrs of their rebuilding process that began in 1969...tell us, please...
It is very rare that any franchise attempts to rebuild their roster via the draft, but as I have pointed out, some rosters are so screwed up, like the 2009 roster inherited by Holmgren and Heckert, the only way to fix it is do a 180 degree turn...moving away from free agency and using the draft to build a roster.
The "best example" I have been able to find was the 1969 Steelers, who had the same issues the Browns have experienced since 1999...
...older roster dominated by free agents.
...lack of winning for a very long time
...one playoff appearance in 33 yrs, compared to Browns one playoff appearance since 1999.
...frequent coaching and front office changes
Vers...the other day you claimed the Seahawks were a great example of a team that rebuilt their team via the draft quickly and won quickly, claiming they were just like the Browns.
But the Seahawks were just two years removed from 5 yr run of consecutive playoff appearances and a Super Bowl in Jan 2006. The roster inherited by Pete Carroll in 2010 was no where near as poor as the Browns roster.
The Seahawks comparison is a bad one, to say the least.
Vers...now, see if you tell us what the Steelers record was from 1969 to 1971, the first 3 yrs of their total rebuild via the draft.
Teams that do a total rebuild of their roster, via the draft, don't win much in the first 3 yrs.
But now the Browns are in year 4 of the 5 yr rebuilding plan, via the draft that was started by Holmgren and Heckert... and this should be our turn around year...when the sacrifices of the first 3 yrs produce results.
Last edited by mac; 05/08/13 08:32 AM.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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vers...can you tell us when the rebuild of the SF 49ers began?
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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I think it's when Mike Singletary pulled his pants down.
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I thought the guy was good. Not great, but had the thing going in the right direction.
As it stands right now, the Weeden pick wasn't good.
I liked him too, i thought he was not great yet but better than good, now he COULD help us out and buy Weeden for a 2nd round draft pick, and i'll call him great...!
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Losing Heckert for Lombardi was a huge down grade for the team.
Heckert consistantly added good young talent to a team void of talent when he arrived. Mike Lombardi has been a train wreck of a GM for 20+ years. Very sad!!!
True but i like that they hired the guy Ray Farmer to help Lombardi, who in my opinion has no talent whatsoever. So who cares if Lom-barbie looks good, if Farmer is good, the Browns get better,
And im pretty sure that the head coach last year (what was his name again..? Son of Fritz? lol) wasnt ready to be a head coach.
You can stock your roster all you want, if the coach punts from the the 50 yrd line like he did against the colts, you wont win...so I agree that Heckert did a good job.
Good luck to Heckert!
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He is not Denver's GM [by any language you wanna use nor was he ever given the Chief's GM job.
I'll start with the Later...my bad I said "given" should have used the term "was offered" the Chief's GM job.
Never once stated he was Denver's GM. as for replacing Kidd that was me reading or listening to NFL Network or the article on this thread. I know Kidd did not have GM title.
Nobody has that title in their organization: Elway would be that guy.
But I see Elway similar to our Banner n Heckert to be similar to our Lombardi.
I went to the Bronco sight n they have a list with guys on top of it...neither Kidd nor Heckert was on their site yet for anyone to say where he is.
Several questions I have.
1. Will have more input with Elway then he would have had with Reid?
2. Will the Title be set up to have Heckert still receive his guaranteed salary from the Browns?
I do object the reference that I got some biased view of Heckert blinding me from the truth. Look I "love" Heckert - I don't even know the guy - pure n simple I loved the job he did for the Browns...that is all. I'm not here Pining for him I accept his firing n he is no longer with us. I am totally backing the new Regime you have no basis of that accusation. If Heckert is the TOP PERSONNEL GUY (under Elway) than that is what he is. If he takes a lesser role for me it must mean he just misses the work but still wishes to keep his guaranteed salary.
Frankly I think it is you who are in denial...Heckert actually was very good. You were touting he couldn't get a job...well now he has one. Possibly a very similar role to what Lombardi is to the Browns??? I don't know their structure of organization is different than ours. But the Denver media are the one stating that Heckert is replacing Kidd.
Oh n no War...just don't treat me like my name is Mac.  
JMHObservations
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Heckert is no longer in Cleveland, Therefore i could care less ... JMHO
John 3:16 Jesus said "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
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Tom was a good talent evaluator and I wish he were here but I liked him and wish him well. 
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Heckert is no longer in Cleveland, Therefore i could care less ... JMHO
Not to pick nits, Pastor, but I think you meant "couldn't care less."
If you could care less, then you must care at some level. 
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Heckert is no longer in Cleveland, Therefore i could care less ... JMHO
Not to pick nits, Pastor, but I think you meant "couldn't care less."
If you could care less, then you must care at some level.
John 3:16 Jesus said "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
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Thanks Tom .... U left behind some talent for the new VERY IMPRESSIVE coaching staff ... and for that I am GRATEFUL ....
Yes Vers .. he had plenty of misses and made some real bone head decisions that cost us dearly (Weeden ... I said it that day ... are u frickin kiddin me) .... I am by no means saying the guy was all that and a bag of chips ......
but now that's it all over he did leave behind some VERY GOOD YOUNG TALENT TO BUILD AROUND ... and it works out nicely as we may FINALLY have a very good coaching staff ... this is BY FAR the most excited I've been about a coaching staff and the talent we've had possibly since our return ... its going to take a few years and if the FO isn't the BONEHEADS I think they are .. we could be a very good team in 3 years with a lot of the talent heck left behind being core players on that team ...
so for that I say THANKS TOM ... Adios and good luck in Denver ..
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Given your history of evaluating QBs, I am actually now excited about Weeden... I'm glad to see you still come to post every now and then.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
#gmstrong
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Given your history of evaluating QBs, I am actually now excited about Weeden...
I'm glad to see you still come to post every now and then.
*LOL* ... glad I wasn't drinking anything when I read that .... that was GREAT!!!!
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Brady! Brady! Brady!
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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J/C
big deal. the guy got a job at his talent level. a collage scout. its a shame he was allowed to mess with the roster and tell the coaching staff who could play and not. the guy was a nutcase as gm and now he is working UNDER someone again, just like it should be
being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
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That's not really fair.
You sound as bad as the guys who act like he was great.
He had some good picks. He had some bad picks. He scored Robertson and Fort as UFA's. He bombed in FA. He reached too much. Bottom line: his teams didn't improve enough. But, I wouldn't say he was a bum.
tab: Can you show me the article where KC confirmed they offered him the GM job? I never saw that. I saw some rumors started by local media types, but I did not see any proof. I think that you should stop saying he was offered the KC job and turned it down until you can prove he was indeed offered it.
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NFL lives and dies on the QB position. Arguably we had a SB team last year if we had Tom Brady on board. Maybe not with Shurmurs offense, but this season no doubt in my mind. (well a little ) I thought Heckert was a pretty good GM. If you compare him to other teams I'd say his drafts hold up as above average. Richardson trade up + Weeden was a god awful 1st round in my mind. If Heckert has any stain in my mind it is there. I wish him luck in Denver. And just now realized my opinion is basically as valid with people who think he was awful. No sense in arguing about it
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Quote:
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However, it certainly isn't a fact. When a team goes 14 and 34 and does not improve it's win total by even a single game from the previous regime in three years while other teams like Seattle and SF have become powerhouses---well, you have no proof that he was better than the current FO.
vers...this is getting old...your 14-34 comment about the Browns record during the first 3 yrs of the rebuilding process....a complete tear down and rebuild, via the draft !
What was the Steelers record the first 3 yrs of their rebuilding process that began in 1969...tell us, please...
It is very rare that any franchise attempts to rebuild their roster via the draft, but as I have pointed out, some rosters are so screwed up, like the 2009 roster inherited by Holmgren and Heckert, the only way to fix it is do a 180 degree turn...moving away from free agency and using the draft to build a roster.
The "best example" I have been able to find was the 1969 Steelers, who had the same issues the Browns have experienced since 1999...
...older roster dominated by free agents.
...lack of winning for a very long time
...one playoff appearance in 33 yrs, compared to Browns one playoff appearance since 1999.
...frequent coaching and front office changes
Vers...the other day you claimed the Seahawks were a great example of a team that rebuilt their team via the draft quickly and won quickly, claiming they were just like the Browns.
But the Seahawks were just two years removed from 5 yr run of consecutive playoff appearances and a Super Bowl in Jan 2006. The roster inherited by Pete Carroll in 2010 was no where near as poor as the Browns roster.
The Seahawks comparison is a bad one, to say the least.
Vers...now, see if you tell us what the Steelers record was from 1969 to 1971, the first 3 yrs of their total rebuild via the draft.
Teams that do a total rebuild of their roster, via the draft, don't win much in the first 3 yrs.
But now the Browns are in year 4 of the 5 yr rebuilding plan, via the draft that was started by Holmgren and Heckert... and this should be our turn around year...when the sacrifices of the first 3 yrs produce results.
The Seahawks roster in 2010 was pretty terrible. 4-12 in 2008, 5-11 in 2009, 7-9 in 2010 (with a playoff win, go figure). But more so than the wins, I just remember they weren't very good.
What they have done in the last 3 years is nothing short of amazing. I like where the Browns are heading but there really is no comparison. They went from irrelevant to arguably one of the top teams in the league with picks like Okung, Thomas, Kam, Sherman, Bobby Wagner, Russell Wilson, etc., and that's not even getting into free agency or trades (or giving the benefit of the doubt to a whole bunch of players, since I don't follow the Seahawks all that closely.)
And since you brought up the Super Bowl appearance to suggest that the roster wasn't really all that bad, how many players do you think remain from that Super Bowl team? I will give you a hint.. it is less than 1.
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Just an aside.... a roster is more than the record, and the record is more than just the roster. Simply citing just the record doesn't tell anyone anything about the roster.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Are you trying to say that Heckert did just as good of a job of assembling a roster as the guys in Seattle did? 
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Quote:
Just an aside.... a roster is more than the record, and the record is more than just the roster. Simply citing just the record doesn't tell anyone anything about the roster.
That is a good point. The record probably at least says something, but moreso than that, they just weren't very talented back then.
I'm sure somebody can post the roster back in 2009 or 2010 and the point will be made very well.
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Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761 |
Seattle is the exception, not the rule. How about comparing Cleveland's roster with the likes of JAX, OAK, KC and BUF...you know, the teams that, like the Browns, are REALLY picking in the top 10 for a long time. I take our toster over their's hands down Comparing Heckert to the Seahawks is comparing him to the absolute best case scenario of the past 3 offseasons and while they absolutely did a marverlous job, they also got lucky some. Nobody can tell me they saw Sherman becoming a Top 5 CB or Wilson their franchise QB as a rook...you have to have that type of luck to get over the hump. Take away those two and the Seattle roster is pretty much like the Browns'. Sherman was picked almost 50 picks after they selected a complete bust at WR (Kris Durham), who like Sherman was a flyer...same with Wilson after spending millions on Flynn. If you truly want to evaluate the job Heckert did, then you have to compare him to ALL other FOs...and when you do that, you'll quickly see that he did an above AVG to good job, especially in the 2010 and 2011 drafts. That said, the outcome of the 2012 draft will determine, at least for me, if he was good, AVG, below AVG or even great. If both TRich and Weeden bomb, then he deserved to be fired. If he hit on 3 of TRich, Weeden, Schwartz and Gordon, then he did a good job...if all 4 make a leap and become above AVG NFL starters, then he was great Continously bringing up the Seahawks, who represent an exception and are far from the norm, just reveals a biased evaluation of Heckert by bringing up the best possible scenario. In some ways it's a compliment, because if he was truly AVG, then Vers should be able to bring up a dozen examples of clearly better GM work...and there's little chance he can accomplish that without making him look like the agenda driven poster he is with regards to Heckert, so all what's left are "the Seahawks". People like to bash on mac for continously and repeatedly bringing up the 1969 Steelers or some other "argument" and deservedly so, but Vers is doing just the same on the other side imho without getting called out for it...well, I guess I did now  ..and for a poster who repeatedly says he doesn't want to change anyone's opinion and doesn't care what they think, he does repeat the same stuff over and over again, doesn't he? Just like mac...
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Heckert Joins Broncos as Personnel
Executive
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