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I would have liked to see how this compares to facing 3rd and short. Turns out Trent had it relatively easy last year. It will be interesting to see how he does all healed up this year. https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/05/08/facing-eight-in-the-box/Facing Eight in the Box Khaled Elsayed | 2013/05/08 Sometimes you get an idea in your head. Whether it be commentators telling you something or whether it’s you looking to make some logical assumptions, ideas and theories stick. On Tuesday, the PFF twitter feed was inundated with messages telling us that the Chiefs’ Jamaal Charles (who had himself a very good year) constantly faced eight men in the box. Now I’ll be honest in that I watched a fair few Chiefs games and did differing types of analysis on them, but it didn’t strike me as right that Charles faced any more than the league average. So I decided to look at what the numbers said, and while it started off as more of a rebuttal to some criticism, it developed into an interesting look at which players faced the most defenders in the box. With that in mind, I bring to you what I think is the first real look at players facing eight or more men in the box to see which players truly had to overcome it. The 49er Way If you’ve missed our tweeting on it, there really was only one contender to this crown and his name was Frank Gore. An astonishing 42.25% of his runs saw him face at least eight defenders in the box, although we’ll explain why some of this isn’t down to the schemes and offensive formations used by the 49ers. But for now here’s the entire list of rushers with at least 100 designed carries. The league average came out at 23.25%. Stay tuned because tomorrow we’re going to add some more data to the mix when we look at how the use of offensive personnel impacts this. Code:
Rank Name Team <=7 >=8 Total
1 Frank Gore SF 149 109 42.25%
2 Shonn Greene NYJ 168 108 39.13%
3 A. Peterson MIN 228 120 34.48%
4 Bilal Powell NYJ 74 36 32.73%
5 DeMarco Murray DAL 111 50 31.06%
6 Ryan Mathews SD 136 48 26.09%
7 Vick Ballard IND 156 55 26.07%
8 Mark Ingram NO 116 40 25.64%
9 Isaac Redman PIT 82 28 25.45%
10 Michael Turner ATL 166 56 25.23%
11 Donald Brown IND 81 27 25.00%
12 Jonathan Dwyer PIT 117 39 25.00%
13 Rashad Jennings JAX 76 25 24.75%
14 Michael Bush CHI 86 28 24.56%
15 Arian Foster HST 267 84 23.93%
16 Steven Jackson SL 197 61 23.64%
* LEAGUE 10130 3069 23.25%
17 Stevan Ridley NE 226 64 22.07%
18 De. Williams CAR 136 37 21.39%
19 Marshawn Lynch SEA 248 67 21.27%
20 BJGE CIN 220 58 20.86%
21 Alfred Morris WAS 267 68 20.30%
22 Ahmad Bradshaw NYG 177 44 19.91%
23 Felix Jones DAL 89 22 19.82%
24 LaRod S-Howling ARZ 90 20 18.18%
25 TrentRichardson CLE 219 48 17.98%
26 Ray Rice BAL 215 42 16.34%
27 Doug Martin TB 267 52 16.30%
28 Chris Johnson TEN 233 43 15.58%
29 Darren McFadden OAK 183 33 15.28%
30 Bernard Pierce BAL 92 16 14.81%
31 Fred Jackson BUF 98 17 14.78%
32 Matt Forte CHI 212 36 14.52%
33 Alex Green GB 116 19 14.07%
34 Reggie Bush MIA 196 31 13.66%
35 Willis McGahee DEN 146 21 12.57%
36 Pierre Thomas NO 92 13 12.38%
37 Jamaal Charles KC 252 33 11.58%
38 C.J. Spiller BUF 184 23 11.11%
39 Knowshon Moreno DEN 124 14 10.14%
40 LeSean McCoy PHI 180 20 10.00%
41 Bryce Brown PHI 105 10 8.70%
42 Mikel Leshoure DET 202 13 6.05%
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interesting. it does note that alot falls on formations used, etc.
but, what really sticks out from that list to me is that teams didn't put more in the box vs. Charles & McCoy? Those passing offenses weren't tearing things up but the runners had decent years. I'd have paid more attention there (or maybe their speed caused teams to keep guys back?)
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Impossible! Watch the All 22, Trent is great!
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That's actually a really interesting find in this article. I wasn't even aware they kept that statistic. Although they seem to keep stats for virtually everything in this day and age for media usage.
Trent Richardson being healthy should only help him obviously, but seeing as we did absolutely nothing to improve the guard spot I still see our running game as a weakness again this year. Our guards got almost zero push most of the yard, Trent as most effective when he was able to get outside the tackles.
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Personally I'd like to state that is BS...not on your part but on the stat guys.
Only the Bengals played as a game plan 7 in the box. What is not show in the stats is that possibly with 2nd n 3rd down we were in Passing Downs cause of the them stopping the run or late game, late half. Teams would go 7 in the box. But only the Bengals were in 7 in the box. Some teams would show n before the snap the SS would move into the box. I have to question the accuracy of the STAT takers.
JMHO...possibly there is a technicality that I'm missing as in there were 8 n 9 around the box but not in it??? I just did not see what they are claiming via stats. Only the Bengal games.
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Wait and see how our blocking schemes are going before hanging our running game out to dry just yet. I'm convinced that, while Guard play needs to improve, blocking scheme was more of our issue than anything last year.
I have absolutely nothing to base that on except that we have two pretty good tackles and a pretty good center. At least one guard is decent... that's 80% of the line that I would say is at or above NFL average, yet at times we couldn't run block to save our lives? I'll wait to see what Chud does with this.
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I think having a passing game will help our run game as well, regardless of who or what is "in the box"
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I would have liked to see how this compares to facing 3rd and short. Turns out Trent had it relatively easy last year.
Not a surprise to me....I said time and again last year that the "TRich faces 8+ in the box all the time" talk was a pure myth and revealed not only an obviously biased "opinion", but also a cluelessness about breaking down what's on tape by posters on here. I'll never forget the discussion with DC about the WAS game, where there was little to no 8 men play and still posters wanted to see what they believe to defend TRich and bash on on Weeden
The way I saw it was that it was balanced early in the season, with more 8 in the box, then teams realized TRich doesn't hurt them and Weeden made some plays deep, so teams started playing both S deep to take that away (think BAL game) and TRich still was dancing around for 3.5yds and couldn't take advantage of it. Weeden struggled with the new zone looks and started second guessing himself and made dumb mistakes to make it worse, his HC didn't help by throwing him under the bus. We had no running game whatsoever all of last season, our season ypc was as bad as 2011, while our yds/PA jumped up and was the main reason why we scored 6+ more points per game compared to 2011
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but also a cluelessness about breaking down what's on tape by posters on here.
1. Thanks for the compliment 
2. You got tape?
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j/c A lot of posters on the other board blamed the OL and defenses putting 8 in the box stopping Richardson. Hardesty went against the same front-7 a lot quicker and made decent yards. Once again first impressions last a life time. Hardesty complete bust and Richardson can do no wrong. Richardson is like most rookies to much dancing instead of hitting the hole hard. When Richardson learns to attack the hole, you wonder what posters will say about the OL them. Sometimes what looks obvious is not always so. Good piece of football analytics clevesteve! 
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Quote:
j/c
A lot of posters on the other board blamed the OL and defenses putting 8 in the box stopping Richardson. Hardesty went against the same front-7 a lot quicker and made decent yards. Once again first impressions last a life time. Hardesty complete bust and Richardson can do no wrong.
Richardson is like most rookies to much dancing instead of hitting the hole hard. When Richardson learns to attack the hole, you wonder what posters will say about the OL them. Sometimes what looks obvious is not always so.
Good piece of football analytics clevesteve!
You do know he wasn't healthy much of last year right?
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Wait and see how our blocking schemes are going before hanging our running game out to dry just yet. I'm convinced that, while Guard play needs to improve, blocking scheme was more of our issue than anything last year.
I have absolutely nothing to base that on except that we have two pretty good tackles and a pretty good center. At least one guard is decent... that's 80% of the line that I would say is at or above NFL average, yet at times we couldn't run block to save our lives? I'll wait to see what Chud does with this.
I agree.
I have a feeling the last staff made things harder then they should have been.
Had Homie made a good hire at head coach, he might still have a job paying him hundreds of thousands of dollars a year for about 15 hours worth of work a week.
Show up for a few pep talk PC's, drive around training camp in a golf cart in work out shorts to make it look like he had been working out, lug a few prospects or reporters to dinner once in a while to schmooze.
Pretty good gig.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Quote:
j/c
A lot of posters on the other board blamed the OL and defenses putting 8 in the box stopping Richardson. Hardesty went against the same front-7 a lot quicker and made decent yards. Once again first impressions last a life time. Hardesty complete bust and Richardson can do no wrong.
Richardson is like most rookies to much dancing instead of hitting the hole hard. When Richardson learns to attack the hole, you wonder what posters will say about the OL them. Sometimes what looks obvious is not always so.
Good piece of football analytics clevesteve!
I disagree. I thought more posters on the other board were worried about his activity in the backfield (dancing, waiting) than any other issue, including 8 men in the box. In fact, IMO, I put the priority of concern on his performance for the majority of those posters like this:
1. Backfield activity
2. Injury concern
3. How many defenders in the box.
Maybe I'm wrong, and I don't mean to speak for others, but this is what I remember being relevant in terms of the pecking order of concerns with him.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
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Interesting article. I could have sworn we faced 8 in the box quite a bit. Heck, I was even at three games and saw 8 in the box quite a bit. We sure as heck had 7 in the box a lot.
Also, that list contained some surprises. Seriously, look at the list. Some of them make sense, but others???? Who do you fear more? The RB or the QB? Some of those seem out-of-whack.
Thanks for posting it, though. Good information.
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I remember the 8 in the box comments as well. And I thought...what are they watching? It's just not true. And this backs that up.
I have some hope that Richardson becomes a Ray Rice, MJD type player this year. I can't imagine playing RB with broken ribs. It takes a strong minded guy to even think about playing.
But there were times last year that he was a bad player. And times where it was obvious that Hardesty was playing better.
I hope everything comes together for him this year. He stays healthy. And he hits the designed hole with alacrity.
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Quote:
I can't imagine playing RB with broken ribs. It takes a strong minded guy to even think about playing.
Am I wrong in assuming that you are saying that TRich's broken ribs was why he wasn't as effective as most had hoped?
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You are not wrong. I do believe he was limited due to his rib injury.
Also:
1. I was against the trade up and selection but not vociferously.
2. I see Trent Richardson as a high quality phone booth move the chains physical runner.
3. I think he may be able to be a Ray Rice, MJD type player.
4. I prefer speed backs that have receiving skills to power backs.
The Browns need him to get healthy, step up his game and be a workhorse type player.
Heck he's a very similar guy to Emmitt Smith. And Norv Turner did okay with him.
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Could be, but from my observations, his problems were not due to physical discomfort or fear of getting hit because he was hurt. In fact, I thought he was extremely physical.
I thought his biggest problems were that he was not decisive and that he danced too much instead of attacking the hole. It's called instincts. I thought they were poor. I admired him for his toughness. He was very physical and that is why I don't think the ribs were as much of an issue as most are making them out to be.
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TRich already had a crappy ypc well before he injured his ribs....it was well under 4yds PRE and POST ribs. He drove me nuts with his lack of awareness for situational football. How often did this dude not take the easy 2-3yds for the 1st down trying to hit a home run, just to get in a bad 3rd or 4th down spot? Most memorable were his fails in the NYG game on 3rd&1 and the fail play vs the Cowboys on a pitch out or when he made up his own dive play in the same game on 3rd&goal from the one instead of following the FB for an untouched TD
We did lead quite often in the 2nd/3rd Qtrs of games, but never had the running game to put the game away. The Weeden-INT that lead to the turnaround in the NYG 2min before the half, leading by 7p was directly after a TRich fail to pick up one yard, prompting our HC to throw the ball on a rollout (how dumb is that with Weeden?) and our rook QB to make a dumb throw...those 2 plays to me were our 2011 season in a nutshell with regards to TRich, Weeden and Shurmur...great potential leading and shutting down the Giants at THEIR home, close to going up by 10p before the half....and then this fail show by those 3 (Cribbs did pile on with his KR fumble to make it even worse). Many just look at the score of that game now and think we got smoked, but I know what I saw in those first 28min...and that was the Browns owning the Giants, in NY and the stadium being a church...the rest was a young team totally losing it, after that Benny-Hill-like comedy 2 minutes
All the homers were piling on Weeden while the much higher investment (and thus responsibility to produce) TRich got all kinds of apologies. I think many don't realize that BOTH are big question marks entering this season
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I thought he had a game or two of welcome to the NFL hesitations. Excluding the Bengal game where I swear was the only team as a defensive scheme played 7 in the box.  But he kicked butt that game.
Then he started recognizing the NFL game n difference from a hole in College n a hole in NFL...much more decisive.
Then all of a sudden it changed - the observations of dancing or indecision. It puzzled me then some dawg had a convo on a plane ride with Weeden's cousin - one of the things revealed was Trent had broken ribs. It then made sense - still a rumor n not fact but more n more noticeable I thought. Then sure enough near the end of the season it became known as fact that Trent was running with Broken Ribs. I thought it was obvious.
Not sure if you broke ribs (no cast bone must grow naturally n reconnect) hurts to take in a deep breath, laugh gosh forbid if you get a cold. Also the danger is great in regards of another direct hit that makes a fracture into separating n possibly puncturing the Lung. I'm sure he was advised of this. No matter how MACHO he is got to be in the subconscious. I thought the different subtleties of his running was obvious at the time I didn't wish to claim rumor as fact at the time. But was not worried.
Little things like turning his shoulder a lot when going through the LOS n having impact.
I did think he had a little learning period n then got comfortable - then after the injury more dancing stuff rather than decisive explosion in a crack.
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In another thread you seemed to indicate just how often we were force to face 8 men in the box. Looks like we were below the league average and pretty low league wide in statistics. I guess that just adds up to one more blown excuse. Of course only you understand what's going on at the LOS and I couldn't have possibly have had a clue. 
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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When you have 3rd and 10 you wont be facing 8 in the box.
RB's who are 3rd and long backs as well will have a lower percentage as well.
So you really need those numbers broken down into down and distance.
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j/c
7 in the box? 8? bottom line teams always had at least 1 guy looking at him and for the most part 2. its why weeden had so much time in the pocket. or one of the reasons anyway.
being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
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The reason Weeden had time is because we had one of the best pass blocking offensive lines in the NFL.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
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Could be, but from my observations, his problems were not due to physical discomfort or fear of getting hit because he was hurt. In fact, I thought he was extremely physical.
I thought his biggest problems were that he was not decisive and that he danced too much instead of attacking the hole. It's called instincts. I thought they were poor. I admired him for his toughness. He was very physical and that is why I don't think the ribs were as much of an issue as most are making them out to be.
I'm firmly in the pro-Richardson camp yet I consider what you have written to be a very fair criticism. In fact this sums up nicely my criticism of Trent's ball carrying. I also feel he underperformed in blitz pickup.
Earlier this year Richardson was quoted out of context about Weeden's ability to read defenses. It's my opinion that Trent needs to improve his ability to read holes and display a little more patients on his runs. Similar to the way Weeden needs to improve his vision and timing. He also needs to get out on blitzers as a pass protector better than he did last season. All of that is dependent on whether Norv's offense needs these skills from Trent. I suspect it does.
If he does those things I think we will see the him make a significant leap.
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ok I have to step in for Trent...the kid had surgery and had 3 broken ribs all year long...I read somewhere, where he said he had to sleep standing up for most of the year...just saying the poor kid had it tough last year and I expect him to really step it up this year. I will look for that article and post it here.
I bet you're wondering the samething I did, why O' why didn't I take the...blue pill
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I bet you're wondering the samething I did, why O' why didn't I take the...blue pill
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NRTU
For a Rb to even play with broken ribs is amazing!! !! If one thinks this did not hinder big time has never had a broke rib because even a bruised rib would make you change your outlook. He was physical during runs because that is his style and that was more.so once he got into the open. When be had to put his down between the tackles is when you know for certain his ribs is what hindered him. I couldn't imagine what he was doing with what he was dealing with.
To know his injury and think any less is what amazes me from a lot of you guys. You guys really amaze me!!!!
You dont have to win every game just the next one!
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J/C....Thanks for the stats but they can be seen different ways. The way I read this is that the percentages are based on the number of plays the player actually ran the ball on against 8 in the box. I'm sure that there were many times that we faced 8 in the box but more often than not one of our WCO 2-3 yrd pass pattern was call against it.
I don't post much but read often. I am a fan of my beloved Browns but looking back on last year there are a lot of posters that are pro TR and con BW and vise versa.
I don't understand how on one hand TR is great when he obviously had issues dancing and not hitting the holes while failing to gain 1000 yrds for the season, while rushing for under 50 yrds in a game 7 times (I know broken ribs).
On the other hand you have BW is a bum when he obviously had issues with reading coverage and throwing INTs while passing for more than 3300 yards, I know the 4 Ints in 1st game.
To me both made rookie mistakes and aside from TR Injuries neither were in an offensive system that allow plays to be called to their strengths. Heck on more than one occasion plays were not getting called in on time anyway.
Give them this year and let's see how that perform their sophomore season. I expect both to make a great leap in progress. jmo
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Quote:
When you have 3rd and 10 you wont be facing 8 in the box.
RB's who are 3rd and long backs as well will have a lower percentage as well.
So you really need those numbers broken down into down and distance.
Good post.
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71 st out of 100 enough said how many rookies drafted behind him finished ahead of him
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Trent Richardson, Delanie Walker among breakout candidates By Adam Schein Columnist, NFL.com Every year in the NFL, certain folks step out of the shadows. Promising youngsters blossom into stars. Guys finally grow up and live up to the hype. Players join new teams and thrive. Backups become starters and seize the opportunity. Let's get ahead of the curve. Here are my breakout players for 2013, Schein Nine style: 1) Trent Richardson, RB, Cleveland Browns: Cleveland's offense was a mess last year, and Richardson's rookie season didn't go as planned. Nicked and bruised with multiple ailments (ribs, knee), Richardson rumbled for a pedestrian 950 yards. He didn't show the power or burst that made him a top-three pick coming out of Alabama. A healthy Richardson, a prideful Richardson with a chip on his shoulder, is destined for a gigantic sophomore season. New head coach Rob Chudzinski told the Cleveland media last month that Richardson is "quicker than what you see on tape." Norv Turner isn't a skilled head coach, but he's a great play caller, and Chudzinski is lucky to have him. Turner's offenses have featured dominant backs through the years, from Emmitt Smith to Stephen Davis to Ricky Williams. With Brandon Weeden at quarterback and questionable receivers out wide for the Browns, you know Richardson is going to get a lot of touches. I think Richardson will live up to his draft status and put up Pro Bowl-caliber numbers in a monster season. Grab him in your fantasy league! Link to the rest of the article.
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A healthy Richardson, a prideful Richardson with a chip on his shoulder, is destined for a gigantic sophomore season. New head coach Rob Chudzinski told the Cleveland media last month that Richardson is "quicker than what you see on tape."
Norv Turner isn't a skilled head coach, but he's a great play caller, and Chudzinski is lucky to have him. Turner's offenses have featured dominant backs through the years, from Emmitt Smith to Stephen Davis to Ricky Williams.
I really hope this prediction comes to fruition. The guy has a lot of talent. He could be a real difference maker for this team. If he could somehow become a bit more instinctual and a lot more decisive, he could have a great year because his physical talents are off the charts.
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J/C....Thanks for the stats but they can be seen different ways. The way I read this is that the percentages are based on the number of plays the player actually ran the ball on against 8 in the box. I'm sure that there were many times that we faced 8 in the box but more often than not one of our WCO 2-3 yrd pass pattern was call against it.
This would be my take as well. People love to come up with excuses for our run blocking. But when actually peeling away the layers, there aren't any.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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jc Interesting stuff to read regarding our OL performance in 2012 and expectation for 2013 Grades from PFF and Football Outsiders....differing a lot on some teams, but pretty equal on the Browns. Overall they evaluated what I saw: a good pass blocking OL and a solid/AVG run blocking OL. More proof that TRich's performance was sub-par, not the OL http://www.rotoworld.com/articles/nfl/43265/179/2013-offensive-line-rankings
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Yep...tells me if we get better in the run blocking and TRich heals up 3 broken ribs our run game will be MUCH improved.
You dont have to win every game just the next one!
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I see the ribs are still the fav apology around here right after the also dismissed 8 in the box-theory. I don't know how many times I have to mention that TRich was a well below 4ypc AVG even before he got the rib injury (I think it was 3.7ypc pre and 3.3 post rib injury)....he was bad even when supposedly healthy
an NFL AVG run blocking OL should be plenty enough for a "special", "stud" RB picked at 3 overall....my point is: the OL can be just as AVG as last season, it should be enough to deliver 4.2ypc+ for an AVG NFL RB, because that's the AVG for NFL starting RBs nowadays with all the focus on the pass. So if an AVG RB (think Hardesty) can get 4ypc with AVG run blocking, then a "stud" should be good enough on his own to make more than that....and that's my expectation level with TRich, anything less would be a major disappointment considering the HEAVY (and imho stupid) investment made
TRich is in the same situation Weeden is in. If he produces another sub-par season in the 3.5-4.0ypc range, then he is not a "franchise" player. He may get one more season than Weeden because of age and and hype, but they're in the same boat: they have to start producing to live up to their draft slots or the new regime will look for eventual "competition" or replacements
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Legend
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I wasn't making excuses for TRich. I openly stated I agreed he did too much dancing in the backfield. That's not on the OL.
I can state that while these sources try to look at 32 teams, I really only took a close look at 1. The Browns.
And from what I saw, even calling our run blocking average is stretching things quite a bit. The pass blocking was great, no doubt.
But the holes just weren't really there on any consistant basis in regards to run blocking.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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