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Too bad Mangini did not actually believe in what he stated.
That talking point may have made sense but he set the Browns back years with his preference for players that he knew but could no longer play.
Bitter... you bet. he was a pompous jerk.
just wonder witch players your talking about? and who did he get rid of that did anything,anything at all after they left the browns?
being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
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Posted May 24, 2013 @ 11:49 PM Uh oh ... Buster got beat ... again Print Comment By Steve Doerschuk Browns practice notes, left over in note pad but observed fresh, from scratch: • Mangini Music is back, but being played at Meow volume. Under Mangini, the music blared from speakers along walls within close range of neighboring houses. This music is way away from houses, played rather low ... there wasn’t a whole lot of Hootchie when they played Rock and Roll Hootchie Koo. • Montario Hardesty has been running with gusto in both practices we have seen. • Maybe there are 200 backs who can make a right-angle cut as well as the one scatback Dion Lewis did along the left sideline. But I haven’t seen one in Berea. • It was an overlooked route, since Brandon Weeden didn’t throw the ball on one particular play where Greg Little deked his way past Buster Skrine and got wide open deep. But ... it made me wonder if that sort of thing is why Skrine, although probably the fastest man on the defense a third year running, was a fifth-round pick. • I couldn’t tell whether Little was clowning or complaining when he didn’t get the throw on that move. He has matured. He has not turned into a hermit. • Josh Cribbs was Seneca Wallace’s second-unit go-to security blanket. Travis Benjamin was Jason Campbell’s in last Thursday’s practice, but not as much in this Thursday’s. • Jon Sandusky, who survived the personnel purge, spent a lot of the session alongside Michael Lombardi as they chatted between themselves. • Brandon Bogotay is attempting some of the field goals, sharing work with Shayne Graham. There is less than a zero percent chance Bogotay, who was on the Georgia roster but was not the field goal specialist, will win that job. At least, given that background, how could he? • There has been talk about how many games might be lost because Captain Dawson has changed forts. That reminds us to investigate how many games have been won the last five years because Phil kicked a crucial field goal. Not a great number of wins to research, there. • We did not get the sense that in watching Brian Hoyer that any magical aura from Belichick and Brady had whisked across some invisible bridge to Berea. • Benjamin was working with Weeden when they hooked up on a deep pass. Skrine got beat there, too. He also got pushed by Benjamin. • I seem to see Brandon Weeden underthrowing receivers more often than he ought to. I don’t seem to see Jason Campbell underthrowing receivers at all. • It is taking a while to figure out that the tall safety wearing No. 24 is Johnson Bademosi. We are used to seeing short corner Sheldon Brown wear that number. Three years, 47 games. • Joe Haden is strutting around almost like he owns the place. He needs to own A.J. Green. Tough one there. • No guard gets drafted in a third round without the GM thinking he will be a good starter. John Greco is eager to prove, years in, he was worth the Round 3 pick St. Louis spent on him. Teams like the Browns need break-through guys like Greco. • Gary Barnidge, who stands out to us, oddly, as “the tight end with short arms,” was getting a lot of work in this session. But then, Jordan Cameron (strained groin) was in no condition to be in the session. • Here is an incredible Barnidge stat: Barnidge played in 63 games with Carolina the last four years. He caught 18 passes. • He is the glass-half-full Barnidge tidbit: One of those catches was a 24-yard touchdown in a win over the Eagles last Nov. 26. It’s late. We’ll get back in the notebook when it’s early again. web page
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It's OTA's. Who was rushing him? Were they mixing coverages up.
It's Vers. Who was all "uh-oh" when a simple OTA report came out about a bad Weeden practice? Now that he had a good one, it's "just OTA's" 
Anyone is free to push an agenda, but at least be consistent, right?
...and please spare us all the personal drama you'll eventually try to spin your way out of it with. You made comments about two different OTA practices and I'm just pointing out the "rationale inconsistencies" of them, nothing more or less
Go back to the hole you crawled out of.
You pimped Weeden and instead of admitting you might be wrong, you spread BS and then lie.
Here is the quote where I said: "uh oh."
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Turner stressed he's only seen Weeden practice three times, "but the things I've seen is what we saw on film. He's got a big arm. He's very intelligent. He makes good decisions.
He "makes good decisions?" Uh oh.
It had NOTHING to do w/Weeden having a bad practice. It had everything to do w/what Turner said. You lie through your teeth to spread your agenda. And you say I have an agenda.
One more time, exactly what is my agenda?
And let me know, Mr. Know it All----------------accuracy problems in OTA's are a problem--or not?
I don't even address you. Yet, you only seem to post when you wanna slam me. You make up lies, like the one above, say that I have the agenda, etc. LOL.............you are a fraud!. Keep wolfing, Mr Know it All..........and I will expose you for what you are.
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Too bad Mangini did not actually believe in what he stated.
That talking point may have made sense but he set the Browns back years with his preference for players that he knew but could no longer play.
Bitter... you bet. he was a pompous jerk.
I'm sorry, but I think you are dead wrong. Not saying I am right, but I disagree w/your assessment.
Here is what I think: I think Mangini knew the roster was polluted w/selfish, lazy, underachieving players. I think he knew he had to change the culture. I think he got rid of some of those players like Leon and K2.. I also think that is is ridiculous to even suggest that you can redo a roster in one year.
I think he brought in some players he knew that would be good locker room guys and would help change the culture.
I think he wasn't planning on keeping those guys around forever, but instead, they would help the transition by being locker room leaders while he replenished the roster.
I think it is NONSENSE to suggest that he wanted to BUILD his team w/those players.
Unfortunately, Junior panicked and brought in The Big Show, who turned out to be The Big Phony and The Big Lazy Butt.
The plan was ruined. All I know is that I am sick of hearing people say that he wanted an old and slow team. That is a complete fallacy.
Let's face it..............most people who hated Mangini hated him because he didn't kiss BQ's butt and automatically make him the starter. BQ has since proven himself to be the bum that I said he was, and most people will not say they were wrong, but instead will continue their blind hatred that was unjustified from the onset.
And I am "bitter" that the BQ lovers/Mangini haters ruined something that would have been good and we ended up w/the nightmare of The Big Show, Reach Heckert, and Passive Pat.
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I didnt like Mangini because he built the slowest team I have seen in the modern era of football and he also hired Daboll who was an idiot. How that moron managed to land 2 more offensive coordinator jobs is mind boggling but hey his incompetence managed to get 3 head coaches fired in 3 consecutive years. That has to be a record.
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I didnt like Mangini because he built the slowest team I have seen in the modern era of football and he also hired Daboll who was an idiot. How that moron managed to land 2 more offensive coordinator jobs is mind boggling but hey his incompetence managed to get 3 head coaches fired in 3 consecutive years. That has to be a record.
who. by name did he bring in to make the team slower verses who he let go? simple question?
being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
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Yeah, Mangini did what most head coaches do when taking over a new team ..... and he brought in veterans who knew his system. Bill Parcells did the same thing when he took over the Cowboys. He also imported many former players. (Vinnie, Terry Glenn, Aaron Glenn, Keyshawn Johnson, etc)
Our former DC, Rob Ryan, imported guys like Abe Elam, Kenyon Coleman, and Brian Schaefering to play on his Dallas defense. Was it because they were among the best in the NFL? No, it was because his defense is extremely complicated, and these veterans helped teach it to the other players.
This is what coaches do. We brought in Wallace when Holmgren took over, because he knew the WCO, and I believe to this day that Holmgren knew that we would change coaches after his first year with the team.
I do disagree with you in that I like much of what Heckert did with the team. He hasn't hit on every pick, but his contributions have helped rebuild the team to a large extent. We are stocked with young players across the board, and many of them to have enough talent to be solid NFL players. The thing we need now if a few superstar level players. We need some game-breakers. We need some players that make other teams stay awake at night trying to figure out how to defend, or defend against. Hopefully Mingo will be one of those players, along with maybe guys like Gordon, Richardson, Sheard, and maybe a couple others.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I didnt like Mangini because he built the slowest team I have seen in the modern era of football and he also hired Daboll who was an idiot. How that moron managed to land 2 more offensive coordinator jobs is mind boggling but hey his incompetence managed to get 3 head coaches fired in 3 consecutive years. That has to be a record.
Did you read my post? I just said that those guys were transition guys. He didn't want a slow team. Sheesh Mourg. You are smarter than that. That kinda stuff is for the dummies.
I actually liked Daboll's schemes. He never had a qb. He never had much talent. He didn't get his HC's fired, the FO's lack of of bringing in good players got them fired.
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I do disagree with you in that I like much of what Heckert did with the team. He hasn't hit on every pick, but his contributions have helped rebuild the team to a large extent. We are stocked with young players across the board, and many of them to have enough talent to be solid NFL players.
Valid argument. Hard to tell right now.
A lot will depend on well TRich and Weeden become.
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Too bad Mangini did not actually believe in what he stated.
That talking point may have made sense but he set the Browns back years with his preference for players that he knew but could no longer play.
Bitter... you bet. he was a pompous jerk.
just wonder witch players your talking about? and who did he get rid of that did anything,anything at all after they left the browns?
You must have read it incorrectly. You're right, none of Mangini's players did well. because they were washed up when they got here and retired afterwards.
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!
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Too bad Mangini did not actually believe in what he stated.
That talking point may have made sense but he set the Browns back years with his preference for players that he knew but could no longer play.
Bitter... you bet. he was a pompous jerk.
just wonder witch players your talking about? and who did he get rid of that did anything,anything at all after they left the browns?
You must have read it incorrectly. You're right, none of Mangini's players did well. because they were washed up when they got here and retired afterwards.
in other words you cannot name them? I can only guess that you don't know what you are talking about and are just blowing wind. 
being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
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It's OTA's. Who was rushing him? Were they mixing coverages up.
It's Vers. Who was all "uh-oh" when a simple OTA report came out about a bad Weeden practice? Now that he had a good one, it's "just OTA's"
Anyone is free to push an agenda, but at least be consistent, right?
...and please spare us all the personal drama you'll eventually try to spin your way out of it with. You made comments about two different OTA practices and I'm just pointing out the "rationale inconsistencies" of them, nothing more or less
Go back to the hole you crawled out of.
Quod erat demonstrandum 
As for the "lie" accusations, here's a quote from you all up in arms after a bad report, May 22nd in this same thread:
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Not picking on you. A lot of people saying similar things. But, I think it's pretty darn discouraging when your first round QB is indecisive and inaccurate in freaking OTA's. How the heck is he going to get better when he is facing live bullets? 
...then after the good report, when Weeden reportedly was "a surgeon", it was:
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It's OTA's. Who was rushing him? Were they mixing coverages up.
...so yeah, there's no agenda at all with regards to the tone and choice of words 
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And let me know, Mr. Know it All----------------accuracy problems in OTA's are a problem--or not?
Sure they are. I just pointed out your inconsistency dismissing a glowing review of Weeden's accuracy as "just being OTAs". If a lack of accuracy in OTA practices is a mild concern, then great accuracy in another OTA practice (moreso AFTER the bad one) should be mildly good (or at least progress).
My opinion on this? I couldnt care less either way, as its not about end results at this stage of learning a new Offense and it's somewhat to be expected to have up and down practices on your first practices. Not worthy of much commentary at this point imho and it's usually the time of the year where agenda-driven posters pound the table hard as there is not much of substance to talk about
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You pimped Weeden and instead of admitting you might be wrong, you spread BS and then lie.
Let's recap: I somehow "have to admit" that I "might" be wrong on Weeden...(and which part of "he is a 50/50 boom/bust gamble", you know, what I said about him before we even drafted him, didn't you get? I was happy we picked him fully knowing it was a gamble, but that gamble had a higher % to hit than the close to 0% of the alternative named Colt McCoy. Would you have gone into last season with McCoy as the starter again? Really? That was the real-GM problem, a luxury armchair GMs donT have to consider in their "quest" of being right).
...but you still defend and apologize for the almighty Eric Mangini? A proven fail job and no longer works in the NFL guy because of it that messed up and set back the Browns roster like no other in only one offseason? Yeah, it's me who needs to check a mirror....or maybe you just have a soft spot for "ex-"coaches, being an ex-scout (wonder why?) and stuff
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Funny, that isn't what you said in your first post. You said that I said "Uh oh" when Weeden struggled. I showed you that wasn't true.
Let me ask you something. If a guy is struggling w/accuracy during OTA's, do you think that is a problem or not? Let me ask you another question. Don't you think almost ALL qbs look good in OTA's?
One more question. I have asked you numerous times to explain exactly what my agenda is. You continually say [on almost every post you make] say that I have an agenda, yet you refuse to explain what my agenda is.
Either tell us what my agenda is or stop saying it.
You only trot that out there in some lame attempt to discredit my opinions on matters that you don't agree with.
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You do just fine with the "discrediting" part yourself, as I've pointed out in my last post. It was just one of many instances (your last spin on OTAs is the continuation) where you use rhetoric to push your agenda. Speaking of: everybody knows and can read through it. It would be like explaining a lame joke to someone who still doesn't get it or wants to start a personal pee match to distract from it and I just don't feel like it. As for OTAs: As I've said, I couldnt care less as I think they're highly inconclusive as to what to expect come regular season. If the reports were ALL negative, maybe I would be concerned a bit, but would still wait for TC and preseason. Now tell us how a good showing is "just OTAs" and a bad one "discouraging". If it's "just OTAs" then there should be no "discouraging" and if a practice can be "discouraging", then a "surgeon"-like practice should be encouraging, right? That'd be just consequential, but somehow that wasn't the case in your commentary.....here's a hint: it's in those little words and switching of standards where the "agenda" is at work
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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So, what is my agenda? LOL man, you are so full of it.
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Your agenda? Well, as far as I can see it is:
Pump up the Banner led front office at the expense of anything good Holmgren and Heckert may have done
Slam Weeden whenever you get a chance.
Belittle fellow posters whose opinion differs from yours at every turn and being a total ass while doing it.
I think that about sums it up.
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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Chargerdawg...wont get into a full DEADBATE with you regarding Mangini - obviously you don't respect him n I do. If he was a Brown I would fight you tooth n nail but he ain't 
But that bit about the competition was in regards to a QB competition cause its a fine line creating a QB competition cause you do not wish it to build into a QB controversy.
He was however stating on why you would have a competition when there is not an established THE GUY.
Did he have that in his competition of BQ vs DA? No for the simple reason there was sadly NO CREAM THERE TO RISE. Not because of some Indecision of his or he didn't follow through on those words. NOBODY CAME OUT n WIN THE JOB in 2009 you cannot blame Mangini.
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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I want to clear something up.
I don't know if it was you who posted it, but somewhere, 2 weeks ago I read that Benjamin was playing scared out there, scared was used twice in the post.
On this page, I read Benjamin doesn't like to get hit.
How can this be proven, (because I don't believe it), How can someone prove this as something real and not just subjective observation?
Are there any exaples of Benjamin, flinching, or breaking off routes before contact?
Has he said it, or anything that demonstrates it, or has it been said about him, by teamates/coaches in an interview?
Why should I have any reason to think, Travis Benjamin is playing scared anymore than any other player is playing scared?.......or substitute, doesn't like hits, for playing scared.
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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If only our defense has the anger and agressiveness I see here we will be 16-0 Grow up guys there has not been one run, one pass done under game conditions. Need to get a real life watch and enjoy and pray these guys grow into a real team. A team with HEART and passion not to loose to anyone especially in OUR house.  
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Too bad Mangini did not actually believe in what he stated.
That talking point may have made sense but he set the Browns back years with his preference for players that he knew but could no longer play.
Bitter... you bet. he was a pompous jerk.
just wonder witch players your talking about? and who did he get rid of that did anything,anything at all after they left the browns?
You must have read it incorrectly. You're right, none of Mangini's players did well. because they were washed up when they got here and retired afterwards.
in other words you cannot name them? I can only guess that you don't know what you are talking about and are just blowing wind.
ok.... Bowens, Barton, Elam, Ratliff, Coleman... with my first breath... do you want to discuss the great Robiskie and Viekune?
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!
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...Mike Furrey, R.Royal, Hank Poteat, John StClair, Floyd Womack, J.Trusnik, Blake Costanzo, B.Schaefering...
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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The worst part about Mangini were the losses by huge margins in his first year. There is little hope you're getting better when the games aren't even a contest.
I thought this was about mini camp articles.
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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...and Chancey Stuckey, who's fumble cost us the Jet's game in 2010.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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Your agenda? Well, as far as I can see it is:
Pump up the Banner led front office at the expense of anything good Holmgren and Heckert may have done
Slam Weeden whenever you get a chance.
Belittle fellow posters whose opinion differs from yours at every turn and being a total ass while doing it.
I think that about sums it up.
Thanks Otto. If only I could be as polite and objective as you.
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No problem. Glad to be of assistance.
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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With that out of the way, go back in this thread and show me where I attacked you first. While you are at it, see if belittled Dj first or if it was the other way around.
I typically post MY thoughts on what is going on and do NOT attack other posters until they say things like I am an "ass" or I have an "agenda" and can not be taken seriously.
Also, why don't you re-post ALL your Football posts on this thread? I can't seem to remember any. I just remember your insulting post that had nothing to do w/football. Help me out on that, will you, Mr. Sunshine.
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Too bad Mangini did not actually believe in what he stated.
That talking point may have made sense but he set the Browns back years with his preference for players that he knew but could no longer play.
Bitter... you bet. he was a pompous jerk.
just wonder witch players your talking about? and who did he get rid of that did anything,anything at all after they left the browns?
You must have read it incorrectly. You're right, none of Mangini's players did well. because they were washed up when they got here and retired afterwards.
in other words you cannot name them? I can only guess that you don't know what you are talking about and are just blowing wind.
ok.... Bowens, Barton, Elam, Ratliff, Coleman... with my first breath... do you want to discuss the great Robiskie and Viekune?
elam started 23 games the last 2 years. played in 28. wouldn't say he is out of the nfl.
Kenyon Coleman started 20 games the last 2 years since he been gone. played in 23.
realy? ratlif? a third string QB?? 
Bowens, Barton? well you got me there. they were just part of the last significant win the browns have had in the last 3 years. but your right about those 2. they were brought in as a stopgap.
being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
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Your agenda? Well, as far as I can see it is:
Pump up the Banner led front office at the expense of anything good Holmgren and Heckert may have done
Slam Weeden whenever you get a chance.
Belittle fellow posters whose opinion differs from yours at every turn and being a total ass while doing it.
I think that about sums it up.
Thanks Otto. If only I could be as polite and objective as you.
Yup...sums it up nicely.
The PMs from Vers with expletives should be hitting your inbox shortly.
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...Mike Furrey, R.Royal, Hank Poteat, John StClair, Floyd Womack, J.Trusnik, Blake Costanzo, B.Schaefering...
at least that's a better list.
being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
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1. Pretty sure that was me.
2. Proven...obvious there is no WRITTEN observation in print about him playing scared. It all depends what you need by proof.
My Opinion however was formed not from OTA's but from the field of play. It was the overwhelming reaction I had from his overall play from last year. I saw him shy away from plays in the middle of the field n never challenged a defender for a ball.
At 175 pounds or there abouts I can understand why. I cannot accuse him of being Stupid.
3. Almost all posts where I am posting OPINION I will end the post with JMHO...you do not have to agree with my opinion. I don't do this for show...sometimes I alter it. JMHO is not part of my signature...I type it so that there is no misunderstanding on what I write.
4. For any example. Best one is the INT by Reed played like 100+ plus times as it was part of the NFL NETWORK loop anytime they talked about Reed which was several times a day after the SB n before he was signed by the Texans...and still played after he was signed.
I think Benjamin ran a Corner route ending up around mid field. The ball was underthrown. The clip shows Benjamin turn face the ball n simply wait for it rather than move towards the ball n jump for it, fight for it, Reed just steps in with absolutely no fight from Benjamin as he looks at Reed INTing the pass. never once taking a step towards him. There was several examples but this one was shown over n over n over so the one I choose to use as an example.
Scared??? JMHO
Now how will we utilize Benjamin. Now that we have Bess for the slot he might not be asked too much to run underneath routes. It has been reported by several WRs they have never ran so many GO n POST routes. So for those except the need for him to come back n fight for balls. I can see him being productive. All depends what we will be asking from him. No doubt the kid is Very Fast. I have no problem with him running out of bounds avoiding big hits...not what I'm saying. I think that is smart from him. But from the little data wee got last year...he was out there a lot. He proved to be a totally different WR on Inside short routes then perimeter routes n deep routes.
I said what I said strictly based on what I saw. If you saw differently please give me your example.
jMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Dawg Talker
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You asked what your agenda was. I posted what I felt was an appropriate answer. I think it was accurate and concise. After reading your posts since you "came back" I doubt any reasonable person would disagree with my assessment. I seldom post in the off season because until the guys take the field in Training Camp there really isn't anything that is worthwhile to talk about with the possible exception of the Draft. It's quite obvious that you are one of the biggest boosters of this new FO while at the same time being the biggest detractor of the old one. You're also the biggest Weeden hater around. Or close to it. Nothing inherently wrong with any of that. As long as you don't try to deny it while slinging crap on anyone who dares disagree with your opinion. Which you do all the time. It's the same MO you had before you left the last time. You've mentioned several times that you're a former player, coach and scout. You may well have been all of those. But since this is a message board on the Internet all of that is, well, basically irrelevant. You could be Eric Mangini or Ralph the Butcher. No one really knows. So your opinion is no more or no less valuable than anyone else's on here. I think you lose sight of that on a regular basis. That's MY opinion.... 
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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Hall of Famer
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Quote:
...Mike Furrey, R.Royal, Hank Poteat, John StClair, Floyd Womack, J.Trusnik, Blake Costanzo, B.Schaefering...
wow now that I think about it. 3 backups, 2 ST players. 2 OLINE players that were starters and one TE that could block and not catch to good as a starter.
that's your list of players that made the team slow?
ok enough. who did mangini get rid of to make the team so old and slow? that was the second part of the question.
being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
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Legend
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in other words you cannot name them? I can only guess that you don't know what you are talking about and are just blowing wind.
Coming from the 'Heckert is a nutcase' guy, this is pretty priceless.
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Hall of Famer
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Quote:
Quote:
in other words you cannot name them? I can only guess that you don't know what you are talking about and are just blowing wind.
Coming from the 'Heckert is a nutcase' guy, this is pretty priceless.
I can name lots of people nutcase heckert let go that are starters on a other team. want to play the game of the worst gm the browns ever had?
being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
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Legend
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Legend
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Quote:
I can name lots of people nutcase heckert let go that are starters on a other team.
We already went through this in another thread.
You were pressed by several posters to give examples of Heckert being a 'nutcase'.
You failed to do so.
You were asked to provide examples of this wealth of talent that Heckert jettisoned.
Couldn't do that, either.
Quote:
want to play the game of the worst gm the browns ever had?
Since '99?
Eric Mangini.
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Quote:
Quote:
I can name lots of people nutcase heckert let go that are starters on a other team.
We already went through this in another thread.
You were pressed by several posters to give examples of Heckert being a 'nutcase'.
You failed to do so.
You were asked to provide examples of this wealth of talent that Heckert jettisoned.
Couldn't do that, either.
Quote:
want to play the game of the worst gm the browns ever had?
Since '99?
Eric Mangini.
ok lets play. who did mangini get rid of tat did anything in the nfl? who did nutcase heckert?
being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
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Legend
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Legend
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Quote:
ok lets play. who did mangini get rid of tat did anything in the nfl? who did nutcase heckert?
Once again, you continue to dodge a question that you cannot answer -
Do you have any reasonable evidence to show that Heckert is a 'nutcase'?
Beyond that ... if you really want to examine each regime, looking at who they let go isn't really a good indicator, as neither regimes had very much talent.
Not to mention ... why do you even want to play that game? I mean, if your angle here is to look at guys sent off by Mangini or Heckert ... Mangini loses that battle.
But of the guys Mangini jettisoned, I can't really say that I missed any of them. Of the guys Heckert let go, it's pretty much the same feeling. I would've kept on Vickers. That was a mistake. But it hardly qualifies as 'gutting a roster'.
What you should look at is who they brought in.
I think Heckert is overrated around here. But he ran circles around Mangini (or Kokinis, if you want to pretend that he was our GM) in terms of leaving the team with pieces.
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Legend
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Legend
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Quote:
Quote:
I can name lots of people nutcase heckert let go that are starters on a other team.
We already went through this in another thread.
You were pressed by several posters to give examples of Heckert being a 'nutcase'.
You failed to do so.
You were asked to provide examples of this wealth of talent that Heckert jettisoned.
Couldn't do that, either.
Quote:
want to play the game of the worst gm the browns ever had?
Since '99?
Eric Mangini.
Not even close. Dwight Clark wins that one hands down, running away from the field.
He had everything. He had extra picks all over the place. He just had to git on 1/4 of them over the first 3 or 4 years and this team's foundation would have been set for years.
In 1999, we had a 1st, 2 seconds, 2 thirds, a 4th, a 5th, 3 sixths, and a 7th.
How many of those players were still in the NFL 3 years later?
1: Couch. OK, it was a shot, and he was the consensus pick.
2. KJ. Average at best
2. Rahim Abdullah: Bleh
3. Daylon McCutcheon. Decent
3. Marquis Smith: Bleh
4. Wali Rainer: Bleh
5. Darrin Chivarini: Bleh
6. Marcus Springs: Bleh
6. Kendall Ogle: Bleh
6. James Dearth: Quality Long Snapper .... for the Jets.For 9 years.
7. Madre Hill: Bleh
How about 2000?
1. Courtney Brown: Damaged
2. Dennis Northcutt: So-So
3. Travis Prentice: Bleh
3. JuJuan Dawson: Bleh
4. Lewis Sanders: Had a decent career.
4. Aaron Shea: Backup
5. Anthony Marlboro: Bleh
5. Lamar Chapman: Bleh
6. Spurgeon Wynn: Bleh
6. Brad Bedell: Bleh
7. Manua Savea: Bleh
7. Eric Chandler: Bleh
7. Rashidi Barnes: Bleh
These were draft picks on a bad expansion team. They should have managed to make the team and hang in for a few years .... even the 7th rounders. Many did not though. Many of these guys contributed absolutely nothing to the Cleveland Browns. Many more contributed far less than most players in their draft range. There were no foundational players in these 2 drafts, despite having extra picks galore. (Although I do believe that Courtney Browns would have been if not for injuries)
Overall though, if you want to see futility in the personnel side, and the premiere ineptitude of any front office in "new" Browns history, Dwight Clark personified inept.
Then we got Butch, and his draft stylings .....
1. Warren
2. Morgan
3. Jackson
4. Henry
5. Pharms
6. Jameson
7. Zukauskas
7. King
It was almost like he channeled Clark in his 1st draft. Anthony Henry might have been the best player out of that draft, and he was always dinged up here. He couldn;t get out of here fast enough when he became a free agent.
Let's look at Davis' 2002 draft ....
1. Green
2. Davis
3. Fowler
4. Bentley
4. Taylor
4. Sanders
5. Andra Davis
7. Gonzalez
Green .. Bust. Davis ....was never much of anything. More promise than performance. Fowler ....Decent, though under-powering for the AFCN. Bentley, Taylor, Sanders ..... I think I want to puke. Andra Davis .... another overrated MLB. Gonzo ..... Bleh.
Those were our 1st 4 drafts ..... and out of them we got nothing in the way of foundational players. We did not get a single player that opposing teams had to game plan for, and worry about beating them.
People like to bash Mangini's draft .... but he did draft guys who contribute to teams even today, 4 years later. He drafted a guy who managed a Pro Bowl season, and who is the anchor for one of the better OL in the NFL today. Mangini blew picks, (especially Veikune, who never seemed at all interested in being a pro football player) but those were also picks that he added by virtue of his own deft trading. Mangini did not break the trend of Bleh drafting, but he did draft contributors, and long term NFL contributors at that. Even with as bad as his draft was as far as finding plus level players, he did manage to find some average types ..... and that's better than Clark did, even with tons of extra picks. That's why Clark winds up at the top of my "Bad Cleveland Browns GMs". He had it all, and squandered it all.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Legend
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Legend
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NRTU
Man - this thread has turned into a walk down heart break lane...
I understand that we need to remember our past and hope to not repeat what we've done since 99.... but man!
I'm just hoping this FO gets it right... I was very skeptical of both Banner and Lombardi but so far I've enjoyed what they've done this off-season. Time will tell...
<><
#gmstrong
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Rookie
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Every regime after Clark/Policy has had the chore of getting the Browns out of a hole.The thing is,every regime that came in had a larger task than the prior led by
thimbleheads who had no experience or business trying to rescue a franchise.
Every regime had the next regime searching for a that franchise QB.
No other franchise has been so pathetic in finding that long term QB as the Browns have.
I haven't been impressed in any Browns regime. All the regimes drafted poorly IMO. They missed badly in the mid to late RDs..(Anthony Henry was a exception)
All the regimes missed on difference makers.
As great as Thomas is,he's not the difference between the Browns making the playoffs or not. How many wins do the Browns have since 2007?
Alex Mack. really? You can find a C in the mid RDs. Oh that was same draft Mangini set the franchise back 3-4 years.
Heckert did okay as far as a Browns GM goes. But compare him to AFC North GMs.
Now you combine poor scouts and GMs with equally bad coaches.
Thats the canyon Lombardi and Banner have to get the Browns out of.
It all starts with the QB position.
Weeden has the most talent surrounding him of any Browns QB since 1999.
He had the benefit a aggressive FO that got him depth at RB and WR.
This team will live and die on Weeden's decision making.
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