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Student loan debt is over a trillion dollars and counting. Many Americans grow up in large families, with parents who made just enough to get by. When it came time for college, these people had a choice: go to college and "make something of themselves" or take a job that paid 10-15$ an hour working in the service industry.
There are lots of people who don't come from much, who have parents that did everything they could to provide a good living, but could not put money away for college for their children. In order to go to college, especially a "good" college, so many people have to take out student loans. It's good that the government is willing to assist us as we go to school, but something isn't working here. So many people that I have spoken to say they are "screwed" when they refer to their student loans. Many people I know would have allowed the government to garnish their wages rather than pay on their loans because a wage garnishment (25% max) is a significantly lower amount than the minimum monthly payment on their loans (500.00 minimum for some of the people I know). To counter, the government has introduced income based repayment which keeps people out of garnishment, but never lets them pay down the principle.
Student loans, whether Federal or Private, are not dischargeable through bankruptcy. - Unlike most other debts. I have known people with enormous mortgage and/or credit card debt that have declared bankruptcy and been given a clean slate (after several years).
I strongly believe in paying back what has been borrowed, but for some reason, I can't help but think about some of the people that I know. There are those whose parents helped them pay for college, there are those who took out student loans, and let their student loans get out of hand while keeping their credit cards and auto loans in check, and then there are those who did not go to college and did not rack up student loan debt but let their business loans, credit cards, and personal loans get out of hand. The difference between these folks is that the people who do not rack up the student loan debt are allowed to have their irresponsibility forgiven through bankruptcy.
So, my question to all of you (and I'm sure there will be some difference of opinion here) is should the government waive student loans? If not, should the government allow student loans to be dischargeable through bankruptcy?
If the government did waive existing student loans, and then set different criteria on the disbursement of future student loans (using personal or parental income as a scale for the amount that can be borrowed) what effects would this have on colleges? What effects would this have on the economy?
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I think that the question which should be asked is: Should the federal government be in the business of providing educational loans to anyone?
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Don't borrow money if you can't pay it back.
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Quote:
I think that the question which should be asked is: Should the federal government be in the business of providing educational loans to anyone?
Excellent question. And what would happen if they didn't?
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Don't borrow money if you can't pay it back.
Tatars kind of how I feel
I think I'd be ok with them making it ok to wipe out with bankruptcy because there has to be some sort of penalty.... I don't like the idea of just saying you can borrow thousands of dollars and then just wipe them out.... I knew when I got a loan that it would take a long time to pay back, but it is what it is and though I'd love to not have to pay it I don't think it'd be right
<><
#gmstrong
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Quote:
Quote:
I think that the question which should be asked is: Should the federal government be in the business of providing educational loans to anyone?
Excellent question. And what would happen if they didn't?
We'd have a lot more people actually working instead of spending years upon years attending college and universities and going in debt to earn a degree that will cost them more than they'll ever be able to pay back.
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No.
But in my world, no one goes to college for free. Absolutely NO ONE.
Not the smartest...not the poorest...not the best athlete...NO ONE.
Everyone gets an interest free loan that MUST be paid back...no exceptions...including athletes and the brainiacs.
Nothing good is free.
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Quote:
Should the Federal Government waive student loan debt?
No.
Reduce interest rates? Sure. Waive/forgive the debt? Hell No.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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J/C
I just recently finished up this thing called college. It was ridiculous how every college marketed themselves. They basically said "Come here, get a degree in anything, and you'll have a job in that field because you have a degree." This is how college is marketed to soooo many American youth, parents, and adults. It reminds me of how banks sharked low-income/at risk borrowers into taking loans which were obviously going to go up. Yet, the banks never told them the loans had a very good chance of going up. Yes, I understand the government put the banks under pressure to give these loans out. This doesn't mean the government told the banks to use shoddy business practices, though.
I originally came to college for a different major than what I came out with. My original major would guarantee me a job as it's a viable degree and field. My original path didn't mesh well with my strengths which made me switch up my major. My degree is in a field which has allowed me to recently get a job. Not many Americans have the foresight to find a viable degree, have the guidance in their life which tells them about viable degrees, and too many get caught up in "degree=high paying job" thought.
Now for the issue on loans, skyrocketing college tuition, and everything else financially related? I wish we had a better way to fund higher education in the states. I like the European model of guaranteed higher ed or even the lower tuition costs. The crux is that many of their schools are a bit more selective than ours. There's also the whole "socialism" side of European higher education which would rustle one too many feathers here.
How did I do it? I was lucky to receive scholarships which don't exist anymore, took a grant through my field of study, and had two people in my life who lived a bit less in their lives in order to make an investment in me. I'm forever grateful to those who made this investment in me. I understand my case is rare but I understand what college financials entail.
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I don't think they should (forgive the debt), and I definitely think there are changes that have to be made.
Why is it that almost every undergraduate degree, irrespective of discipline, takes 8 semesters to complete? Does that make any sense at all?
The cost trajectories of degrees make absolutely no sense whatsoever. Tuition at my school has more than doubled since i started there 14 years ago.
I think young people need to consider whether or not they will be able to pay for their degree they've selected before they pile on more loans. $40k in loans for an engineering degree? Sure. For an international studies degree? Might want to think twice. Maybe that works in some situations but the students need to take some responsibility in identifying the job prospects for their degrees. I think schools should be more honest about that too but I doubt that that's likely to happen.
Last edited by clevesteve; 05/13/13 10:49 PM.
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Hell no!!! I paid mine off, damit.
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Loan forgiveness, they already do, for medical doctors. 
Go Browns !!!!
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I have 2 degrees and paid off all my college loans (4 years worth) at the age of 31.
SaintDawg™
Football, baseball, basketball, wine, women, walleye
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Should they waive student loan debt? Probably not. Not completely at least. (though, as someone who just graduated two days ago, I probably wouldn't decline the offer)
Something really ought to be done about the cost of tuition though, as it has grown at a tremendous rate. I got my first degree in 2003 from a small private university. Tuition my freshman year was a shade under $20k a year in 1999. Today tuition for an incoming freshman is anywhere from $37k to $41k, depending on area of study. Cleveland State, where I just graduated from, has seen its tuition increase by nearly 100% in the past decade.
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Well, current student loan debt $280,000  -Note, Might be able to get forgiveness of $160,000 if one is willing to follow all of the programs strings attached. Like living in isolated rural areas, traveling hours between locations...
Last edited by DawgFace; 05/13/13 11:59 PM.
Go Browns !!!!
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That is ridiculous. Young people should not have a burden equal to a mortgage when graduating and just getting into their fields. Tuition is way too expensive. And books.
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HMMMMM my daughter is 30 grand in debt fr student loans, and my son is 70 grand in debt so sure. I mean if an illegal immigrants kids can get a free education why can't mine.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Ok, so back in the day, I took out student loans to go to college. I was also eligible for grants and scholarships which I used to go to college.
I paid all the loans back, and my wife's as well.
I will answer the question..
Should loans be forgiven...absolutely not.
Should the interest be reduced, or minimized... absolutely. I think it is fair that the loans do not accrue interest during college, only after college.
Should the government be able to charge whatever interest they think is appropriate... no
Should the government be in the business of providing student loans.. Absolutely yes. I would have never been able to obtain a loan given my economic background... My parents were both on social security and did not have a dime to spare. In fact, I gave them my social security check to help them make ends meet.
Would I have been able to make it through college or even go to college without student loans... Possibly, but it sure made things easier. I finished my undergraduate degree in 4 years plus a summer class.
Now, did the government make a good investment by loaning an unproven kid with no ability to repay money? Absolutely, in retrospect a great investment for both of us. I see that every year when taxes are due. Simple statistics show that the earning power of a college graduate far exceeds that of a high school graduate. So the government program works.
Now, should their be adjustments to the program, probably yes. I don't like hearing about 6 figure loan debt for a person with a degree that has minimal earning power. Nor do I like hearing about colleges raising rates far above inflation for no apparent reason. Is there an argument for loan forgiveness, probably, but I don't buy it. It is a responsibility that you take when you sign your name on the paper. I have concerns with how college is structured these days, and the way loans are used by some. There should be limits, and I feel that some colleges have a list price and a real cost.
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!
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I was really glad that there is a student loan when I needed it the most when I was studying in college.
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Just clicking Damian
When I see the bills for college on my bursar account, I feel so blessed that I don't have to pay tuition so I am not racking up bills.
But, I would rather see them take that money and invest it in the people and education rather than give it to the banks and the auto industry. It would be a huge boom to our economy if people were now out from under student loan debt, but I also understand the feelings of those that have already paid off their student loans, and future students who figure they can take any loans they want and the govt. Would pay them off for them.
So since it would just be a temporary fix, I would say no.
KING
You may be in the drivers seat but God is holding the map. #GMSTRONG
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The cost trajectories of degrees make absolutely no sense whatsoever. Tuition at my school has more than doubled since i started there 14 years ago.
Well, if you're still working on an 8 semester degree after 14 years, maybe college ain't for you. 
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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What do you tell all the people who did pay there loans, or have just finished or nearing finishing paying?
Or all the parents who paid for schooling themselves, or those who wanted to go but just weren't willing to pick up that much debt, and are now working those 10-15/hr jobs?
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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j/c We pay to bail out banks, the auto industry, and we support the energy industry and farming, why not let the little people get some of their dollars back. 
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One of my nephews has almost 100k in school loans (when combined with his soon to be bride)
It's like another home loan. but he took out the loans. the alternative would have been pay as you go. Would have taken him 10 years to get a degree but he'd have no debt or at least a lot less.
I'm not for forgiving school loan debt. But I'd be willing to listen to all sides of it.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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HMMMMM my daughter is 30 grand in debt fr student loans, and my son is 70 grand in debt so sure. I mean if an illegal immigrants kids can get a free education why can't mine.
I'm @48k, Should the government forgive my debt? No.
But I won't cry a river if they do.
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j/c
We pay to bail out banks, the auto industry, and we support the energy industry and farming, why not let the little people get some of their dollars back.
And I was against all of those. :P
My issue with it is not whether it would be helpful to those who are under the debt, but what message does it send to those that made the choice not to take on the loans, or those that chose a cheaper school because of the cost of loans, those that paid them off already, etc etc.
Just like the idea back a few years ago about forgiving some people of their mortgage debt or lowering thier mortgage to within the current appraisal to a more afordable loan. How do you present that before all the people who bought houses they could afford, or that have been restructuring their budgets to continue paying their mortage at all costs.
Hell If I knew 4 years ago I could go to take on classes with a student loan, and then graduate and have the government forgive my loan, I would have done it in a heartbeat.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Quote:
Quote:
j/c
We pay to bail out banks, the auto industry, and we support the energy industry and farming, why not let the little people get some of their dollars back.
And I was against all of those. :P
My issue with it is not whether it would be helpful to those who are under the debt, but what message does it send to those that made the choice not to take on the loans, or those that chose a cheaper school because of the cost of loans, those that paid them off already, etc etc.
Just like the idea back a few years ago about forgiving some people of their mortgage debt or lowering thier mortgage to within the current appraisal to a more afordable loan. How do you present that before all the people who bought houses they could afford, or that have been restructuring their budgets to continue paying their mortage at all costs.
Hell If I knew 4 years ago I could go to take on classes with a student loan, and then graduate and have the government forgive my loan, I would have done it in a heartbeat.
Right , but instead we sent billions and billions of dollars too bail out the mortgage industry, but did nothing for the people. Someone posted an article floating an idea of, instead of sending the money directly to the mortage corp.s . Why not use the money to pay off, or pay down peoples mortgages? Actually help people with their own tax dollars, rather than just hand it to a big corp. so their CEOs can take multi million dollar buy outs.
KING
You may be in the drivers seat but God is holding the map. #GMSTRONG
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The short answer to your question is no. But then I was never one to stop at the short answer. Let's talk about a few things that go into college debt that can be avoided if people are a little smarter.... 1. Do your first two years at the community college or at least at a college where you can live at home so you don't have to borrow living expense money. 2. Get a job and use the money for something other than beer and spring break. It is possible to carry a 15 credit load and work 20-25 hours per week... use that money to help pay your college bills. 3. Be smart about picking a college based on your major. If you want to be an elementary school teacher, your earning power is fairly well defined... so don't go to Yale and rack up $100K in debt because you won't make enough to pay it back. 4. Be agressive in applying for grants (don't have to be paid back). Millions of dollars in grant money goes unclaimed every year because people just don't know what's out there or how to apply for it. It actually takes a lot of work to track these things down and apply. 5. If you get your undergrad degree and you are $50K in debt, go get a job and pay most of it off BEFORE you go back for a grad degree... unless your job requires it. Staying in school and racking up more debt simply because it's a tight job market and things are tough isn't very smart. 6. Don't acquire credit card debt while in college to support your social life because that will only compound your problem when you get out and combine it with your student loans. If you go to college with kids who have more money and they can afford to go to the bowl game or go to the beach for spring break and you can't afford it... then don't go. 7. And perhaps the most controversial... if you can't afford it, don't go to college right away or at all. Yes, you may come out and start at $10-15/hour at a job but if it's an actual "career" type job such as a tradesman within 4 years you can have achieved some certifications and you could be making a lot more than that. And the construction fields are starving for qualified tradesman. The construction industry and the IT industry seem like two pretty viable fields where a person can at least get a strong start before needing a college degree... And for the record, I broke most of those rules during and after college and struggled a long time to pay off my debt... so I'm speaking from experience.
yebat' Putin
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Quote:
Quote:
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j/c
We pay to bail out banks, the auto industry, and we support the energy industry and farming, why not let the little people get some of their dollars back.
And I was against all of those. :P
My issue with it is not whether it would be helpful to those who are under the debt, but what message does it send to those that made the choice not to take on the loans, or those that chose a cheaper school because of the cost of loans, those that paid them off already, etc etc.
Just like the idea back a few years ago about forgiving some people of their mortgage debt or lowering thier mortgage to within the current appraisal to a more afordable loan. How do you present that before all the people who bought houses they could afford, or that have been restructuring their budgets to continue paying their mortage at all costs.
Hell If I knew 4 years ago I could go to take on classes with a student loan, and then graduate and have the government forgive my loan, I would have done it in a heartbeat.
Right , but instead we sent billions and billions of dollars too bail out the mortgage industry, but did nothing for the people. Someone posted an article floating an idea of, instead of sending the money directly to the mortage corp.s . Why not use the money to pay off, or pay down peoples mortgages? Actually help people with their own tax dollars, rather than just hand it to a big corp. so their CEOs can take multi million dollar buy outs.
KING
And I refer back to my very first line..
"And I was against all of those."
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Right , but instead we sent billions and billions of dollars too bail out the mortgage industry, but did nothing for the people.
I was obviously not in agreement with the whole bail out and the way it was enacted but... isn't stabilizing the economy so a lot more people don't lose their jobs and we go into a full blown depression doing something for the people?
yebat' Putin
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good post, DC. lol, jf.
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The short answer to your question is no.
But then I was never one to stop at the short answer.
Let's talk about a few things that go into college debt that can be avoided if people are a little smarter....
1. Do your first two years at the community college or at least at a college where you can live at home so you don't have to borrow living expense money.
2. Get a job and use the money for something other than beer and spring break. It is possible to carry a 15 credit load and work 20-25 hours per week... use that money to help pay your college bills.
3. Be smart about picking a college based on your major. If you want to be an elementary school teacher, your earning power is fairly well defined... so don't go to Yale and rack up $100K in debt because you won't make enough to pay it back.
4. Be agressive in applying for grants (don't have to be paid back). Millions of dollars in grant money goes unclaimed every year because people just don't know what's out there or how to apply for it. It actually takes a lot of work to track these things down and apply.
5. If you get your undergrad degree and you are $50K in debt, go get a job and pay most of it off BEFORE you go back for a grad degree... unless your job requires it. Staying in school and racking up more debt simply because it's a tight job market and things are tough isn't very smart.
6. Don't acquire credit card debt while in college to support your social life because that will only compound your problem when you get out and combine it with your student loans. If you go to college with kids who have more money and they can afford to go to the bowl game or go to the beach for spring break and you can't afford it... then don't go.
7. And perhaps the most controversial... if you can't afford it, don't go to college right away or at all. Yes, you may come out and start at $10-15/hour at a job but if it's an actual "career" type job such as a tradesman within 4 years you can have achieved some certifications and you could be making a lot more than that. And the construction fields are starving for qualified tradesman. The construction industry and the IT industry seem like two pretty viable fields where a person can at least get a strong start before needing a college degree...
And for the record, I broke most of those rules during and after college and struggled a long time to pay off my debt... so I'm speaking from experience.
Well, DC pretty much nailed everything I was going to say, so I'll just re-quote it.
It really boils down to being smart about your decisions. I hate hearing all these "sob" stories about kids that went to a big-name college, racked up $200k in debt and now can't get a job to pay it off because they majored in history. Both parents and students should actually research things a bit more and try thinking of things 5 or 10 years down the road, rather than looking at the big college names in lights.
I'm not more than 15 years out of college ... I got zero help from my parents, got about the minimal amount of grants you could get, and still put myself through 5 years of college. My debts were under $40k ... had I had access to a community college, or an accredited university closer to my parents home, it would of been far less.
And I agree with your last point as well. My Dad is in the electrical repair field, and they're starving for skilled tradesmen as well. They'd probably earn just as much, if not more than half the jobs people get out of college with worthless degrees. Better yet, they're pretty much guaranteed employment for life.
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My issue with it is not whether it would be helpful to those who are under the debt, but what message does it send to those that made the choice not to take on the loans, or those that chose a cheaper school because of the cost of loans, those that paid them off already, etc etc.
It would probably send the message that tuition rates are as bad as the cost for health care. No rhyme or reason just send money!
But I'm not arguing. I know what you mean.
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I haven't gotten into what I think is wrong with colleges yet. Don't think I'm letting them off the hook, I just don't have time to write it right now.
yebat' Putin
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When I went back to college, I was doing 45 hours/week work in addition to 12-15 credit hours per semester. In my second year, that bumped up to 50 hours/week. I just went to classes on my 2 days off. I absolutely agree with just about everything you wrote. I didn't see anything I disagreed with ... but I'm throwing that in just to CMA.  lol I would also add that school simply isn't for everyone. Some people are far better off learning a trade through an apprenticeship, or other training program. Also, if you go for an extremely specific degree, have a realistic view of what that degree will offer you when you graduate. If you get a degree in "Middle Ages Art", or some other extremely specific and limited area, your chances of getting a job when you graduate may be extremely limited as a result. An Art History major will have a harder time finding a job than someone with a nursing degree, That's the job market. Someone with Master's Degrees in each of Humanities, Comparative Literature, and Viking Studies will probably have a harder time finding a job than a person with a Bachelor's Degree in Business Administration. That's today's job market. That person with 3 Master's Degrees might be very intelligent, and well versed in his/her field of study, but if there's no market for someone with those skills, it doesn't matter. Further, they likely will have racked up massive debt to gain this academic standing that will likely do them little good in the real world. In business they always say "understand your market". That's good advice for college students as well. I also see a ton of kids getting teaching degrees ... who then never teach because they don't enjoy it. I really wish that there was a way for prospective teachers to go experience a classroom before they invest tons of money on a degree. I would love to see a program where kids could "go to work" for a month in a job that would utilize the degree they want to pursue. Maybe we could save a lot of wasted money and wasted debt on wasted education that doesn't do what it was intended to do. One more thing ..... we are dumping tons of money into student loan programs for kids, which has been shown to increase tuition costs overall ..... and that money is being used in these programs instead of other things like roads and infrastructure. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but it is a trade off, especially in difficult financial and economic times.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Quote:
I would love to see a program where kids could "go to work" for a month in a job that would utilize the degree they want to pursue.
The engineering disciplines are very good about that. We have a regular rotation of co-ops from NC State and by the time they graduate, they have 3 semesters worth of experience working for a firm in the engineering/construction industry. I agree, every major should try to do something similar because most jobs aren't what kids think they are.
yebat' Putin
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,858
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,858 |
You know Ytown, you just gave me a good idea. Well, it's not really my idea, the military has been using it for years. Join the armed forces and get the use of the GI Bill to get an education either paid for or at least partially paid for (not sure exactly how that program works)
Here's a thought, borrow money from the Fed for tuition. When you graduate, you can do one of several things to pay off or buy down the debt to a manageable amount
1. take a job with a state or federal agency at a very reduced pay rate for a period of X number of years. We as tax payers, get a valuable employee and the employee gets out of debt. Even the history majors have a place working at the Smithsonian or something like that. And the learning experience for them will never be forgotten. Who knows, it might turn out to be a career after the debt is paid.
2. Join the armed services. For instance, Doctors come out of college with huge debt. So, if they join the army medical corp, stay in for 3 or 4 years, most or all the debt is paid off. And again, they could make a career out of the military as well.
Point is, let's do this right, we don't have to let them off scott free, we can give them an opportunity to either pay the debt by making payments or by working the debt off.
This is probably not new..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,419
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,419 |
There are several ways a student can have student loan debt forgiven already.
For example, a new teacher can teach in an under-performing school on a list the government provides. (usually inner city) A medical student can have some debt forgiven by working in a free clinic. There are many other similar programs out there for different disciplines.
I do agree that there are ways to arrive at a win-win though.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,393
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,393 |
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I have 2 degrees and paid off all my college loans (4 years worth) at the age of 31.
In fairness, what was the cost of college tuition when you were in school?
Here's my problem with everything:
- I think the primary problem is along the lines of what Rocket was saying. There are schools that are getting to the point where it's borderline fraud with their employment data. People are enticed to go to school. The schools don't care about the future of the students because they'll get that federally guaranteed money from that student's loan. This brings me to my next point.
- I agree with A2D for once. I think the feds need to stop giving out loans, at least at the rate or in the amount they're giving them out. Tuition is at an all time high because universities know the feds will pay for it and don't care if students can't pay back the feds.
- There is a salary bubble created by this too. If everyone thinks the universities are spending their money wisely or are strapped for cash, look at some of the salaries of Ohio's public university professors on the Treasurer's website. I looked at the salary for my law school professors and I was completely shocked. Not sure if that's the case with all universities though, I must admit.
- I don't know how I feel about forgiving the debt. I do lean toward people paying back what they borrow, but I feel some if not a good portion of the burden should go on universities that pad their employment data and raise tuition to ungodly amounts for no good reasons.
- This is a bubble that will crowd other sectors. Boomers obviously aren't able to retire and college grads aren't able to move into very gainful employment at the rate that's needed. Therefore, if a graduate is basically making peanuts and has to pay for what looks like a second mortgage in student loan debt, how will they buy a car or house or go on vacations? I'm not arguing this from a sympathy standpoint, but from the standpoint that the other industries/commercialities will suffer as a result.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
#gmstrong
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,480
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
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Quote:
- There is a salary bubble created by this too. If everyone thinks the universities are spending their money wisely or are strapped for cash, look at some of the salaries of Ohio's public university professors on the Treasurer's website. I looked at the salary for my law school professors and I was completely shocked. Not sure if that's the case with all universities though, I must admit.
Not true just for your school -- but true just for your profession.
Look at what English Profs are making -- it's not close. At the professorial level, you have to pay something competitive with what private practice makes in their field. The crazy money law school profs are making is probably half of what they'd make if they went out and opened their own firm.
~Lyuokdea
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Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Should the Federal Government
waive student loan debt?
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