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Cleveland Browns counting on Ray Horton to upgrade the defense: Terry Pluto Terry Pluto, The Plain Dealer By Terry Pluto, The Plain Dealer Follow on Twitter on May 16, 2013 at 6:04 PM CLEVELAND, Ohio -- He's No. 9. That's right, Ray Horton is the ninth defensive coordinator hired by the Browns since the franchise returned in 1999. He also may be the most important, given all the money spent and emphasis placed on the switch from the 4-3 to the 3-4 defense. Fans understandably moan and gnash their teeth when hearing about defensive changes, because it happens every few years. In the end, the 3-4 or 4-3 has meant little in terms of record. The team loses and rarely stops the run. The franchise's highest rating ever was No. 10, and that was in 2011. Last season, the Browns' defense ranked No. 23. The new front office believes Dick Jauron's 4-3 defense was OK, but it's the pressure 3-4 defense that can help the Browns take a significant step forward in the next few years. Their research shows most successful teams play some variation of the 3-4 defense used by Horton in Arizona the last two seasons. The Browns have faith in Horton, whom they believe will be hired as a head coach in the near future. The two major free-agent signings were on defense: Outside linebacker Paul Kruger and defensive lineman Desmond Bryant. They received contracts worth up to a combined $74 million, with $35 million guaranteed. The third richest contract awarded by the new front office was to receiver Davone Bess, who received an extension making his contract worth $14 million ($5.75 million guaranteed) over the next five years. The veteran from Miami made several nice catches at Thursday's OTAs open to the media. The linebackers horton-coach-def-brns-2013-jg.jpgView full sizeThe Browns believe that it's just a matter of time before defensive coordinator Ray Horton becomes an NFL head coach. They hope there's enough time for Horton to upgrade a historically mediocre (at best) Cleveland defense.Joshua Gunter, The Plain Dealer But I was concentrating on the defense, where Horton says CEO Joe Banner and General Manager Michael Lombardi have "stockpiled" talent. Horton spent the last two years running a 3-4 in Arizona. The Cardinals were ranked 29th in the league when he took over, and improved to 18th in 2011 and 12th in 2012. Last season, Arizona blitzed 42 percent of the time, only Houston (47 percent) was more aggressive. The Browns ranked 17th (27 percent). Football Outsiders is a respected service that uses a more complicated rating system than is used by the Browns and most other NFL teams as one significant source of data. They had Arizona's defense at No. 6 last season, the Browns 19th. They rated the Cardinals second best against the pass. Horton has outside linebackers from Baltimore (Kruger) and Arizona (Quentin Groves). Horton also has Jabaal Sheard, a 4-3 defensive end in his first two pro seasons here. Then there's Barkevious Mingo, the first-round pick who is also shifting from end to LB. Horton said Sheard's adjustment to a new position "was one of the most exciting" aspects of camp. If the season opened tomorrow, the starting outside linebacker would be Kruger and Sheard. Can Horton turn Mingo from a defensive end at LSU to an outside linebacker? Horton talked about Mingo learning to play standing up, and about how "he has a learning curve ... it's not a simple defense." The challenge will be if Mingo can drop back into pass coverage. He stood out on one play Thursday, breaking up a pass from Jason Campbell to Kellen Davis. Mingo's quickness is obvious. Even if he struggles with some of the nuances, it appears Horton will put Mingo in position to rush the passer. Secondary concerns The first team defense had Ahtyba Rubin, Phil Taylor and Bryant across the front line. Sheard and Kruger were the outside linebackers, with Craig Robertson and D'Qwell Jackson on the inside. The secondary is where Horton will face his biggest challenge. Thursday's first team was Joe Haden and Buster Skrine at corner, Tashaun Gipson and T.J. Ward at safety. Johnson Bademosi, Chris Owens and others were used in the secondary. Third-rounder Leon McFadden was back at San Diego State, completing some school work. The starting cornerback job is wide open for McFadden. Horton described the secondary as a "a lot of young men competing for jobs," which is true. You just hope he can find more than few good cover men, be they young or old -- especially in the defensive backfield. web page
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Quote:
The challenge will be if Mingo can drop back into pass coverage.
If this is Mingo's biggest challenge, then we're good. After watching a lot of his tape and reading plenty of scouting reports, I'm comfortable saying Mingo is already pretty good in coverage, with the potential to be great.
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I don't think coverage is his biggest obstacle at all. I don't think he'll even cover in his rookie year. I would prioritize perfecting his wild hands and reteaching tackling skills. I am his biggest fan but I've never seen such a terrible tackler.
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I agree that those are perhaps the two aspects of his game that need to be worked on the most.
His violent hands could be such a huge asset for him if he could just refine them a bit.
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Quote:
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The challenge will be if Mingo can drop back into pass coverage.
If this is Mingo's biggest challenge, then we're good. After watching a lot of his tape and reading plenty of scouting reports, I'm comfortable saying Mingo is already pretty good in coverage, with the potential to be great.
Haha right. I dont even know why people question this. Have people seen his insane ability to change direction and his fluid hips? Just watch his position drills from the combine and try to question this with a straight face.
When he gets his instincts down he has the tools to be the best cover LB in football. In fact I just read an article today that said he was showing off his man-to-man coverage in OTAs and had a really nice pass breakup.
And I agree about his tackling. I think that is by far what he needs to work on most. He left a lot of sack and TFLs on the field because of poor tackling.
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I agree that those are perhaps the two aspects of his game that need to be worked on the most.
His violent hands could be such a huge asset for him if he could just refine them a bit.
Can't say I've seen more violent hands on a passrusher. It is ridiculous. Hire that kid a martial arts instructor.
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Watch Mathews' hands in GB. He went to Jay Glazier's MMA training. He absolutely attacks OL. Opposing OT have to have sore forearms after playing against him from all the violent strikes he throws swatting away their attempts at getting hands on him.
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Our DL and OLBs are scary. And I mean that in a good way.
Our secondary is scary. And I don't mean that in a good way.
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Our DL and OLBs are scary. And I mean that in a good way.
Our secondary is scary. And I don't mean that in a good way.
I couldn't agree more.
One thing that people seemed to dismiss early on that I thought was worth quoting from the article that Horton said....
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Horton talked about Mingo learning to play standing up, and about how "he has a learning curve ... it's not a simple defense."
Now his comment was about Mingo but he also noted this is not a simple defense.
So many seemed to indicate that it was and the changeover may be a quick one. Not trying to rain on anyone's parade here, but if you are looking to see anything substantial here, it may not come until next season.
I think for the long haul it will be a positive. It's not like we blew up a world beating defense here to start with. Once again, referring to the article, I just hope Horton is here long enough to finish the job. Even this FO knows he will likely be a hot HC prospect.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Yeah my biggest worry about this team is losing Ray Horton! lol I almost wish we would have offered him our head coaching job, even though I like Chud a lot. Im just worried that Ray Horton is going to be offered a head coaching job in the next year or two. Although its good that so many of the crappy teams just hired new coaches this offseason. I just really love our coaching staff right now, I feel like we FINALLY have a legit NFL coaching staff. Who are actually willing to play to the strengths of their players. Thats a crazy concept isnt it? Doesnt really make sense to me. Or Pat Shurmur apparently... 
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I do feel we have by far the most solid coaching staff since our return in 99.
And I do feel that they will be trying to use the strength of our players. The thing is, a lot of our players are young and untested. We still aren't sure if much of their "potential" will translate on the field. We're not sure if some of our D players will transfer well to Horton's 3-4.
I like the coaching staff a great deal. I just think there are still a lot of questions as it pertains to how many pieces of the puzzle on the players side that we're still missing.
JMHO
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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The secondary is where Horton will face his biggest challenge. Thursday's first team was Joe Haden and Buster Skrine at corner, Tashaun Gipson and T.J. Ward at safety. Johnson Bademosi, Chris Owens and others were used in the secondary.
Third-rounder Leon McFadden was back at San Diego State, completing some school work. The starting cornerback job is wide open for McFadden.
With a new scheme and new players there is a transition period.
I do see some issues but time will tell how they factor in.
I doubt if Mingo starts , I look for him to be a situational player ,which isn't a bad thing in his rookie season.
The next spot is ILB next to Jackson.
Our ILB's are not big,but lightweight..I know they want speed,but this unit needs a bigger player inside.
The other is the secondary.I think they really like Gipson@ FS and are using Bademosi there also.
I like McFadden but he is a short corner so we'll see how he adapts.
I would not be shocked if Skrine gets a lot of reps there.
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excellent post but I want to see this guy defend the run.
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I honestly think Ray Horton's going to be gone after next season.
I feel that this season, due to his tendency to throw players into his relatively complicated scheme from the day one, the defense will struggle early before gelling over the second-half of the season. This is exactly what happened during his first season in Arizona in 2011.
Once Cleveland's defense is top five in 2014, he'll be purged. Hopefully they still in-house when they select Horton's replacement, as I feel it's important to maintain continuity in defensive schemes once a team establishes a good one.
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Quote:
I do feel we have by far the most solid coaching staff since our return in 99.
And I do feel that they will be trying to use the strength of our players. The thing is, a lot of our players are young and untested. We still aren't sure if much of their "potential" will translate on the field. We're not sure if some of our D players will transfer well to Horton's 3-4.
I like the coaching staff a great deal. I just think there are still a lot of questions as it pertains to how many pieces of the puzzle on the players side that we're still missing.
JMHO
We're agreeing too much. 
People enjoy it more when we are at each other's throats. How about you take the side that says we have great talent but terrible coaches? Sound good?
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j/c
There is no hint from any coaches just me thinking out loud.
But I still think - WHAT IF our #6 pick is studding out to the point he takes over the OLB position for all 3 downs not just situational pass rush.
I look at our starting LBs and see one glaring hole. One of the ILB w/Robertson. Hey I'm all for the underdawg n I like the kids speed. But if Mingo wins the OLB position n there still is time in camp - I still see a situational possibility of Sheard moving ILB. Mind you no evidence WHAT SO EVER right now. I don't see it even being a possibility unless Mingo studs out n is on the field every down.
It still might be a possiblity in Passing downs anyway. or Sheard moves to DE in a 4 man front...or Kruger. and we got Kruger, Sheard n Mingo all on the Edge.
Front 7 easy to see Good things.
DBs so much youth I agree but I don't think DISASTER. I think we got some very good youth looking to make their marks. But hard to say SO until it becomes fact.
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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People enjoy it more when we are at each other's throats. How about you take the side that says we have great talent but terrible coaches? Sound good?
Nah.....
How abut I say we have several players with great "potential"?
Still can't dog this coaching staff.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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excellent post I hope your right
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I honestly think Ray Horton's going to be gone after next season.
I feel that this season, due to his tendency to throw players into his relatively complicated scheme from the day one, the defense will struggle early before gelling over the second-half of the season. This is exactly what happened during his first season in Arizona in 2011.
Once Cleveland's defense is top five in 2014, he'll be purged. Hopefully they still in-house when they select Horton's replacement, as I feel it's important to maintain continuity in defensive schemes once a team establishes a good one.
Happens all the time,, can't do anything about it. Horton moved on from Pittsburgh after learning from them.. Good for us right? Hopefully, we'll either groom his replacement or identify one..
If Chud, Lombardi and Banner are smart, they already have an eye out..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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WHAT IF our #6 pick is studding out to the point he takes over the OLB position for all 3 downs not just situational pass rush.
And what if Sheard is the stud and Mingo barely sees the field this year, except to give Sheard a blow?
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/hfMNC7T.jpg) "I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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I still see a situational possibility of Sheard moving ILB.
It would be asking a lot of a player to go from hand in the ground defensive end to outside linebacker to inside linebacker. He's not David Veikune.
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Quote:
excellent post I hope your right
Thanks? Why do I feel I am being asked to smell the flower n water will come gushing out in my face
Cal: Quote:
And what if Sheard is the stud and Mingo barely sees the field this year, except to give Sheard a blow?
Huh? You mean Mingo a bust??? Got news for you...Mingo was the BIG TIME FIRST INVESTMENT of this Regime. They will give him the OPPORTUNITY to Stud out. At the least he will be coming in on Passing downs like Aldon Smith. You seemed to take afront to this suggestion which I stated was simply a thought without any validation. But we know this.
Mingo will get the opportunity to play n grow. If he is successful he will be given more opportunity for different situations. There just is a possibility that Mingo progresses far faster than we think. Studs out. I'm just asking a thought process of do we just sit Sheard n bring him in pass rush situations. Or convert him to ILB.
cfrs: Quote:
It would be asking a lot of a player to go from hand in the ground defensive end to outside linebacker to inside linebacker. He's not David Veikune.
There is not a remote comparison as a player n talent with Sheard n DV.
Actually I was thinking more on the lines of Ted Bruschi. 
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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I think you mean "Ted E Brewski"
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yeah the beer guy
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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I just don't know why anyone would think Sheard can play inside linebacker.
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Why not? He has just as much experience there as at outside linebacker.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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That first step is a doozy – On the first day of training camp two seasons ago I marveled at Jabaal Sheard’s first step. He was so explosive off the snap that it stood out above and beyond anyone else in his position group. Now that he is an outside linebacker, his first step is highlighted that much more. He is able to start his rush from the standing position and can use his speed to try and beat the left tackle. Unfortunately for Sheard, his first step was not the most impressive in camp. His backup, Barkevious Mingo, was everything he had been billed to be. He made Sheard look slow. He exploded toward the line of scrimmage like a sprinter out the blocks in the 100 yard dash. Both he and Sheard did not look very comfortable when they dropped back into coverage however. http://espncleveland.com/common/more.php?m=49&action=blog&r=19&post_id=18011
being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
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Quote:
Why not? He has just as much experience there as at outside linebacker.
Because 3-4 OLB and 4-3 DE (both being primarily pass-rushing positions) resemble each other much more than 3-4 ILB and 4-3 DE do.
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Quote:
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Why not? He has just as much experience there as at outside linebacker.
Because 3-4 OLB and 4-3 DE (both being primarily pass-rushing positions) resemble each other much more than 3-4 ILB and 4-3 DE do.
And 3-4 OLB still has to play the run, shed blocks, and drop into coverage.... and he has more ground to cover than the ILB. So, again... why not (besides the "it's unconventional" thing).
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Why not? He has just as much experience there as at outside linebacker.
Because 3-4 OLB and 4-3 DE (both being primarily pass-rushing positions) resemble each other much more than 3-4 ILB and 4-3 DE do.
And 3-4 OLB still has to play the run, shed blocks, and drop into coverage.... and he has more ground to cover than the ILB. So, again... why not (besides the "it's unconventional" thing).
The way in which the 3-4 OLB plays the run is similar to the way a 4-3 DE plays the run - via "sealing the edge." Making him re-learn run-stopping technique for playing on the inside versus having him repeat what he's already been doing on the outside would be a waste of his biggest asset in this defense (since both Mingo and Kruger suck against the run).
And Sheard did play standing up on occasion last season, so we already know he's not going to be a complete disaster. Not to mention that Horton is immensely creative and will probably do what he can in putting Sheard in the position to play out of a three-point-stance (like a 4-3 DE) on occasion.
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j/c:
I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings or start a big argument, but I don't think there is much of a chance of Sheard moving inside.
The 3-4OLB isn't that different from the 4-3 DE. Playing inside in the 3-4 is a huge difference. HUGE! Those guys will be asked to be more responsible for pass coverage than the OLB's. They have a lot more reads to make. A lot more keys.
I think people keep forgetting that we are going to run a defense w/multiple fronts. Sheard will see time as a 3/4 OLBer, a 4-3 DE, and as an edge guy in the 5-2.
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Shhh.... you make it hard to keep yanking someone's chain if you start agreeing with them ;-)
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Quote:
I honestly think Ray Horton's going to be gone after next season.
I feel that this season, due to his tendency to throw players into his relatively complicated scheme from the day one, the defense will struggle early before gelling over the second-half of the season. This is exactly what happened during his first season in Arizona in 2011.
Once Cleveland's defense is top five in 2014, he'll be purged. Hopefully they still in-house when they select Horton's replacement, as I feel it's important to maintain continuity in defensive schemes once a team establishes a good one.
I still say watch Cioffi as Horton's In-House promotion to DC in the future. This thing won't miss a beat.
Sigismondo “Louie” Cioffi was named the Browns’ Defensive Backs coach on January 22, 2013. He brings 18 years of NFL coaching experience, including spending the past two seasons (2011-12) as the Arizona Cardinals’ defensive backs coach.
This past season with the Cardinals, Cioffi’s defensive backs were a part of a defensive unit that led the NFL in passer rating allowed (71.2) and interception percentage (4.4%). The defense also ranked second in the NFL in interceptions (22), second in third-down efficiency (32.9%), fourth in takeaways (33) and fifth in passing defense (200.8 ypg).
http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/team/coaches/louie-cioffi/904da1fe-5219-45fa-ba51-13d1c73c099b
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I still say watch Cioffi as Horton's In-House promotion to DC in the future.
kwhip....I agree, Cioffi could be a logical replacement for Horton, based on their experience together, which dates back to 1997.
In 1997 Dick LeBeau became the DC/ast HC of the Bengals and he hired Ray Horton as his DB coach and Cioffi was a defensive ast for Horton.
Horton remained with the Bengals as DB coach until 2001 before moving on to the Lions (02-03), the Steelers as secondary coach in 2004, when LeBeau returned to the Steelers as DC in 2004.
Cioffi remained with the Bengals a total of 14 seasons, as a defensive assistant then as DB coach from 2003 to 2010. Ray Horton took over as DC for the Cardinals in 2011 and he hired Cioffi to be his DB coach.
Cioffi has experience coaching under Dick LeBeau and Ray Horton...not a bad coaching tree...with Cioffi's coaching specialty being the defensive backfield, same as LeBeau and Horton.
If Cioffi has leadership qualities to match his coaching experience, he could very well be the top candidate to replace Horton, should Horton leave.
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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if you saw his 5 linebacker set up last year you know he was advocating this at the combine
pg i liked mingo as a trade down prospect but no way no how at 6
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On paper...
Our pass rush needs to be very disruptive, or we're going to get thrown on all year long. The cupboard is pretty bare back there.
Rome wasn't built in a day, so I'm not all that concerned. But it could get ugly if we don't effectively get to the QB.
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 343 |
IMO, whoever starts at CB2 (most likely McFadden) is going to be abused for most of the year. Rookies usually struggle at CB and I don't think a third-rounder is going to buck that trend, especially with a question mark at FS as well.
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 61
Rookie
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Rookie
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 61 |
Quote:
Quote:
I still say watch Cioffi as Horton's In-House promotion to DC in the future.
kwhip....I agree, Cioffi could be a logical replacement for Horton, based on their experience together, which dates back to 1997.
In 1997 Dick LeBeau became the DC/ast HC of the Bengals and he hired Ray Horton as his DB coach and Cioffi was a defensive ast for Horton.
Horton remained with the Bengals as DB coach until 2001 before moving on to the Lions (02-03), the Steelers as secondary coach in 2004, when LeBeau returned to the Steelers as DC in 2004.
Cioffi remained with the Bengals a total of 14 seasons, as a defensive assistant then as DB coach from 2003 to 2010. Ray Horton took over as DC for the Cardinals in 2011 and he hired Cioffi to be his DB coach.
Cioffi has experience coaching under Dick LeBeau and Ray Horton...not a bad coaching tree...with Cioffi's coaching specialty being the defensive backfield, same as LeBeau and Horton.
If Cioffi has leadership qualities to match his coaching experience, he could very well be the top candidate to replace Horton, should Horton leave.
Unless Horton takes him with him as his DC!!!!! 
People who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.
- Isaac Asimov
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 Likes: 501
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 Likes: 501 |
We would have to give him permission to leave.
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 5,915 Likes: 16
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 5,915 Likes: 16 |
My fear is we install this D and Horton is a HC next year. Not too many in the league that can run the Steeler defense effectively.
#BlackLivesMatter #StopAsianHate
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Pluto on Horton & the Defense
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