|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,198
Dawg Talker
|
OP
Dawg Talker
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,198 |
Mr Rogers is ‘Evil’ According to Fox News Mr Rogers is an American institution. For decades he wrote and hosted a benign children’s television show where he delivered a simple message about self-esteem and the difficulties of growing up. He dealt with children’s emotions and anxieties and re-assured them that they were “special.” Now he is being accused by Fox News of being evil because he delivered a false message and now a whole generation of children have grown up into adults who expect success in life even if then have not earned it. The Fox analysis is based on the comments of a finance professor from Louisiana State University, who was complaining about the fact that more and more students where asking for their papers to be regraded to a higher level. Prof. Don Chance said, “They felt so entitled, and it just hit me. We can blame Mr. Rogers.” In contrast, his Asian students who didn’t watch Mr Rogers saw their B’s and C’s as an indication that they must work harder. He wishes more parents would offer kids this perspective: “The world owes you nothing. You have to work and compete. If you want to be special, you’ll have to prove it.” I have a lot of sympathy for this but equally, the finance professor does not know what he is talking about. Asian students have a totally different mindset to their Western counterparts and its nothing to do with Mr. Rogers. I have the same students coming to my door in the UK asking for the same re-evaluation. They have never seen Mr Rogers either or endured the whole self-esteem ethos that is so prevalent in the US. I think that there is something wrong in the way that we have created a culture of evaluation where targets have to be met. As soon as you set a target, you get inevitable grade inflation. In fact, grade inflation is one of my major concerns as it is distorting the whole of the educational system. Every year, schools are churning out more and more students with top grades and we are no longer able to distinguish between the very best and the mediocre. And of course, a student who has been getting A’s at school finds it difficult to accept when they get a low grade at University. It’s not Mr Rogers to blame but I do agree with the gist of the piece. Or maybe I am turning into a grumpy old professor too.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,198
Dawg Talker
|
|
OP
Dawg Talker
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,198 |
Some of the discussion about our culture, raising kids, and competition reminded me of this.
In my mind I don't have problem with people creating leagues where everyone gets a trophy. It's good for the trophy economy and there are plenty of competitive leagues that only reward the champions, which is also fine with me.
The attack on telling kids they are special is one that I find disturbing only because it's often accompanied with comments about "spare the rod, spoil the child".
Our youngest daughter went for her jr. and senior years of high school at a school that weighed advanced credits differently from the school she previously attended. They didn't have advanced English, Science or Math so while she was doing the extra work in those classes kids who got A's in less challenging classes graduated with higher GPA's.
One of the best things about NCLB was that it has lead to a movement towards Common Core nationwide. This is going to put pressure on teachers, students and PARENTs equally. Students will earn the grades they get, teachers will be evaluated on outcomes as well as methods, and parents will be responsible for the kids they raise.
There are districts which are no longer suspending kids for defiance due to the research showing if a child gets suspended once - they usually get suspended repeatedly. Suspension leads to court involvement and criminal consequences.
So I wonder if the message that YOU are special is really bad or is something else responsible for the ME generation and the extremes between WINNER and LOSER and the inflated importance of winning.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 75,111
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 75,111 |
As far as your point about evaluating teachers based on student performance, how would you suggest doing this fairly and/or appropriately? A teacher cannot select the students that he or she is responsible for teaching. Consider this hypothetical scenario:
Teacher A is an experienced, organized, and caring educator with engaging, thought-provoking methods; however, she is "stuck" with teaching a basic level course. While her students certainly improve from the beginning of the year, the majority of them are still identified and cannot possibly become proficient on the state test. As a result, on paper the teacher's ability as an educator is considered very poor.
Teacher B is a little more experienced, but his methods are quite antiquated and he has becomed stagnant as an educator; in other words, he is going through the motions and is just counting the years to retirement. However, because of his seniority, he selects to teach the accelerated and/or advanced classes. His teaching style is pretty ineffective and the students don't improve much throughout the school year, but because they are so intelligent, they easily pass the tests at the end of the term. As a result, the teacher is labeled as very effective and the quintessential educator.
I realize there may be no solution to a situation like this, but it still is a problem. Accountability is paramount if we want this country to improve; however, it is a difficult concept to push onto others.
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Jeudy is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Tillman is flanked out wide to the right. Judkins and Ford are split in the backfield as Flacco takes the snap ... Here we go."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 919
All Pro
|
|
All Pro
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 919 |
Weiner, you know as well as I do that most teachers are left wing liberals who cling to tenure and loath accountability. 
GO BROWNS!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,964
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,964 |
I am curious if you are able to read, or listen and interpret, on your own or if the best you can do is simply repeat a headline?
If you listen to the clip, the headline is revealed for what it is. A joke which references a jest. Calling it a flat-out lie would be more accurate.
The attitude that Mr. Rogers put forth is OK for toddlers, the very, very young, and many liberals. After about 4 or 5, the teachings are worse than useless in the real world. Just being nice does not make everything turn out fine. Just being nice may not be sufficient to put food on your table. Nobody hands you a paycheck just because you feel good about yourself.
The world owes you squat.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 75,111
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 75,111 |
Saw your name so I had to ask .. do you live in Millcreek? If so, sorry about the whole mess with the Superintendent and the budget. That entire situation is a disaster, but hopefully it gets solved without much change or impact on the students.
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Jeudy is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Tillman is flanked out wide to the right. Judkins and Ford are split in the backfield as Flacco takes the snap ... Here we go."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,517
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,517 |
Quote:
Just being nice may not be sufficient to put food on your table.
i would like to see the numbers on this because i don't entirely believe that. there are lots of jobs (retail included) where people with "bad attitudes" routinely get fired but employees with "good attitudes" screw up all the time yet stay employed because of their attitude. i'm not saying it's right or wrong, just that i've seen it happen before...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 919
All Pro
|
|
All Pro
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 919 |
Quote:
Saw your name so I had to ask .. do you live in Millcreek? If so, sorry about the whole mess with the Superintendent and the budget. That entire situation is a disaster, but hopefully it gets solved without much change or impact on the students.
It's a mess Dawg, they were going to spend a 100 mil to build a new school they didn't need and didn't even know they were 9 mil in the hole with the budget. The entire school board minus one guy are clueless morons and will be voted out. The biggest voting block in any school district is the teachers, who put this school board in, but the entire community now is voting together to get a new board in place.
GO BROWNS!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 75,111
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 75,111 |
Living in Edinboro I've kept pretty close track to the situation, but it's about time that they clean the slate there and get some people who have a clue. The students and taxpayers are the victims to others' stupidity and personal agendas. Not to mention the weird situation with the guy in charge.
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Jeudy is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Tillman is flanked out wide to the right. Judkins and Ford are split in the backfield as Flacco takes the snap ... Here we go."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,145
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,145 |
j/c
This attitude has more to do with parents coddling their children than teachers or Mr. Rogers telling them they're special. Giving your child a sense of self worth is by no means wrong.
Giving them a false sense of self esteem that they didn't earn is wrong. It's one thing to tell your kids they can do anything without expecting them to go out and try to do something.
I agree we need accountability but how to hold a teacher accountable for a group of children with varying degrees of ability and family involvement is a mystery.
WE DON'T NEED A QB BEFORE WE GET A LINE THAT CAN PROTECT HIM
my two cents...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,458
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,458 |
Quote:
a whole generation of children have grown up into adults who expect success in life even if then have not earned it.
This article reminds me of this girl that had worked with me. My good friend had asked me to come work under him at this restaurant where he is the head/executive chef in Alliance. Its a really cool place, Farm Girls Pub and Grub , and the concept behind the thing, is that we use all locally sourced meats, vegetables, and cheeses in all our dishes. The cheese are made at a creamery that the restauranteur owns, and we have been establishing some special ties with local food growers in an effort to build this great scene where the money spent at this local restaurant, is also going to support local farms, and hopefully this thing will be the beginning of something great.
The place features artwork from local artist too, which adds another dimension to the idea of nurturing the local producers. Its another way we are showcasing talented and passionate people in the area. Not only farmers and cheese-makers are getting a boost from us, but local artists have been able to get a little support from us.. I guess our owner is eventually looking at turning the upstairs into art galleries as another way to really create something special in downtown Alliance, a place that is really quite dead. Our owner has a really great vision to help revitalize the area.
But enough of this self-promotion. On to the girl. Tis restaurant is only open on the weekends, Friday and Saturday, 5pm to 9pm, and that is it. And this girl counts this place as her only job. Well, she called off two weekends in a row because she said that she was tired and didn't feel like she could work. Which is pretty ridiculous as is. Its a four hour shift---twice a week, and you are too tired to come work. 
But what was worse. Is that both of those days she came into the restaurant to eat with her boyfriend, and asked that her meal be comped... 
Talk about being completely out of touch with the whole world. The same girl came into work the one week and had to wait on a table of fifteen people. It was a birthday party, and the guests brought their own cake to the thing and asked the waitress to serve it for them. This girl came into the kitchen and asked us if we could help her carry a cake into the kitchen because she couldn't possibly carry it herself. Then, she asked us to cut the cake b/c she didn't know how, then she had some candles to put on one of the pieces for the birthday girl, and she asked us to light the candles b/c she didn't know how to use the lighter...mind you; this is a twenty-year-old college student about ready to graduate.
I was absolutely livid with this chick.
This is the same girl that we sent to a store once to pick up some items we ran out of, and get some change b/c someone paid with a hundred early in the night. Well, an hour went by and we were all wondering where the hell this girl went, and thirty minutes later she shows back up and tells us that she had decided to walk all the way to the store because it was so nice outside. Then, for change, she gives us back four twenty's and a few singles.
Methinks that one day, this girl is in for a really, really rude awakening. Because she is a complete....... 
I wish to wash my Irish wristwatch......
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 919
All Pro
|
|
All Pro
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 919 |
Exactly, he hides a 5 mil shortage in the budget,gets caught by the auditors, then goes on paid disability with no criminal charges, The sad part is the business manager was aware of all of this, kept her mouth shut and still has her job. Now there is "Evil."  And the school board had no clue?
GO BROWNS!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,198
Dawg Talker
|
|
OP
Dawg Talker
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,198 |
Well, at least here in Ohio, they've developed a criteria to evaluate top to bottom. it's not like they're looking to fire anybody they want, but they will be looking for both teacher A and B to show progress with no students.
Teacher B will probably be more concerned than Teacher A because seniority will be worth something, but it won't guarantee employment or step increases if B's students don't show the type of progress that teacher A's students do.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,198
Dawg Talker
|
|
OP
Dawg Talker
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,198 |
Gosh, at least you don't have an increased sense of self-worth!! I'm not sure which liberals you're talking about, but since your trying to open a political can of whoop-ass, I would suggest that it's conservatives who believe there are people getting more than they're worth because society is just being too nice to them. They also believe there is a large segment of society living off of the niceness of conservative tax dollars. I get it, but I'm not sure how saying Mr. Rogers is wrong, joke or not, and let's be honest, conservatives ALWAYS fall back on the "I was just kidding" (Man Voulture) excuse. BTW I was kidding about Ann Coulter being a Man Vulture. But here's a question. Do we as a society benefit more from individual competition at the loss to everyone else or would we benefit more from cooperation and team work. Wow, I felt somehow "granny-like" just typing the words cooperation and teamwork. Plus I know "cooperation and team work" are just code words for socialist communism!!!! 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,964
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,964 |
Make up your mind, you either want increased "self-worth" or you don't. IMO, I've earned it.
You quote a false headline and accuse somebody else of getting political?
Those two conservative "beliefs" that you "get" - Are they accurate perceptions of reality, or not? The correct answer is YES.
This particular conservative rarely if ever falls back on "I was just kidding".
Now, for the very heart of your failed ideology, competition is not a loss to everyone else. It is a gain, it shows us who or what truly has value. Teamwork is a wonderful thing but you had better understand that there is Always another "team" trying to do it better. Do you want the Best car, heart surgeon, or cheeseburger, or the second or third best? How can you fail to understand that in nearly every endeavor in life, there is a person or thing that is better than most of the others? Does the concept frighten you so badly that you refuse to see reality?
The question that neither Socialism nor Communism, which are two different things, addresses is "what do you do with the lazy dumbasses?"
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,543
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,543 |
As a kid growing up, I never watched Mr. Rogers.. other than the spoof of him by Eddie Murphy on Saturday Night Live,, I virtually have no knowledge of the show or the man.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Quote:
There are districts which are no longer suspending kids for defiance due to the research showing if a child gets suspended once - they usually get suspended repeatedly. Suspension leads to court involvement and criminal consequences.
And sex offenders have an extremely high recidivism rate and most end up in jail again... so let's not arrest them the first time.. that should fix the problem. The problem is not that they are suspended, the problem is that nobody cares they are suspended. If I got suspended, my father would have made damn sure I knew why and that the behavior was corrected. I'm curious what they are doing instead of suspending...
Quote:
So I wonder if the message that YOU are special is really bad or is something else responsible for the ME generation and the extremes between WINNER and LOSER and the inflated importance of winning.
Telling every child they are special is not inherently a bad thing as every child does have the opportunity to be very special. That is far different than telling every child that they are great at everything. I see kids every day in soccer that clearly don't really want to be there, they have no interest, they aren't any good, they would probably much rather be off playing the saxophone or dancing or playing a different sport or something . yet they get paraded out there and after the game mom and dad are on the sidelines telling them how great they are. It is possible to tell a child that they aren't great at something without crushing their self-esteem....
Because kids know.... My daughter is 9, she plays soccer. She really enjoys it and she's pretty good but not great. So I encourage her to play because she really does enjoy it. I guarantee you that if I asked her to rank the players on her team according to ability, her list would be pretty close to my own and it would put her at about 5th or 6th out of 11 on the team... It serves no purpose for me to tell her how great she is and that she's the best player, etc because she would know immediately I was lying. So we talk about her strengths and her weaknesses and her level of interest and if she wants to work at it, great. I'm right there to help her. If she wants to stop playing soccer and try something else... also great. I'm right there to help her with whatever she wants to do.
Help direct them to the things they really do have a passion for.... where they do have a chance to be great. Because I would argue that an inflated opinion of ones ability in something is as bad or maybe worse than an inflated emphasis on winning.
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015 |
Quote:
Now he is being accused by Fox News of being evil because he delivered a false message and now a whole generation of children have grown up into adults who expect success in life even if then have not earned it.
I watched Mr Rogers as a kid, along with Romper Room, Captain Kangaroo, Banana Splits, Sesame Street and a host of others.
I would not say I grew up EXPECTING sucess, but rather grew up knowing I could acheive it if I put my mind and efforts toward it. I grew up believing anything was possible if I wanted it enough. And that NOT succeeding was not failure, but that failure is only achievable if you never try.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,198
Dawg Talker
|
|
OP
Dawg Talker
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,198 |
Quote:
The question that neither Socialism nor Communism, which are two different things, addresses is "what do you do with the lazy dumbasses?"
I usually respond to them with smart-ass comments on forums.
I had fun going back and forth, but my response was just funnin' with you. I didn't realize conservatives were so sensitive or I would've been less of a smart-ass.
So here's a question. Aren't your responses demonstrating the exact conservative mind set that you keep claiming is a joke?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,198
Dawg Talker
|
|
OP
Dawg Talker
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,198 |
Quote:
Quote:
There are districts which are no longer suspending kids for defiance due to the research showing if a child gets suspended once - they usually get suspended repeatedly. Suspension leads to court involvement and criminal consequences.
And sex offenders have an extremely high recidivism rate and most end up in jail again... so let's not arrest them the first time.. that should fix the problem. WOW!!!! How can you make that connection? The problem is not that they are suspended, the problem is that nobody cares they are suspended. If I got suspended, my father would have made damn sure I knew why and that the behavior was corrected. I'm curious what they are doing instead of suspending... Yes, that seems more reasonable. i don't know but apparently it has improved the problem.
As a teacher I can tell you that I absolutely agree that parents are the #1 ingredient in student success or failure. But should we punish and hold back kids because their parents aren't doing their jobs. And do we even know WHY parents aren't doing their jobs? Is it because they're ALL useless welfare bums or is it because they're self-centered "me firsters"?
Quote:
So I wonder if the message that YOU are special is really bad or is something else responsible for the ME generation and the extremes between WINNER and LOSER and the inflated importance of winning.
Telling every child they are special is not inherently a bad thing as every child does have the opportunity to be very special. That is far different than telling every child that they are great at everything. I'm still talking about giving a kid a "you're special" not a "you're great at everything". Do you know how many kids are getting a "you're great at everything" message? I'm not sure there are actually that many. I see kids every day in soccer that clearly don't really want to be there, they have no interest, they aren't any good, they would probably much rather be off playing the saxophone or dancing or playing a different sport or something . yet they get paraded out there and after the game mom and dad are on the sidelines telling them how great they are. It is possible to tell a child that they aren't great at something without crushing their self-esteem.... Well I think there are a lot of parents who know their kids understand when they say, "You were great!" actually means, "we are proud of you". I'm not sure there are many who mean, "we're spending your Premiership League contract money already!!".
Because kids know.... My daughter is 9, she plays soccer. She really enjoys it and she's pretty good but not great. So I encourage her to play because she really does enjoy it. I guarantee you that if I asked her to rank the players on her team according to ability, her list would be pretty close to my own and it would put her at about 5th or 6th out of 11 on the team... It serves no purpose for me to tell her how great she is and that she's the best player, etc because she would know immediately I was lying. So we talk about her strengths and her weaknesses and her level of interest and if she wants to work at it, great. I'm right there to help her. If she wants to stop playing soccer and try something else... also great. I'm right there to help her with whatever she wants to do. My G-kids are enrolled in every sport league at the Y and I've yet to hear a parent tell any of their kids that their kid was "the best". Or kids were involved in a lot of diferent activities that came and went. We forced them into piano lessons, but we never once told them they were going to be pianists when they grew up.
Help direct them to the things they really do have a passion for.... where they do have a chance to be great. Because I would argue that an inflated opinion of ones ability in something is as bad or maybe worse than an inflated emphasis on winning. I still am not stating the case for inflating an ego, but the idea that kids need to at least know their self-worth at even the most basic level. Not sure how that continually gets turned into telling them they're great at everything.
But I do see kids react disproportionately in a negative way when they lose a game. How healthy is that?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,934
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,934 |
I could have sworn that I replied to this thread at one point .........
Weird.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,198
Dawg Talker
|
|
OP
Dawg Talker
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,198 |
I'm glad you said that because I've done the same thing myself.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Quote:
WOW!!!! How can you make that connection?
I should just stop making analogies on this board because nobody seems to understand how they work. The purpose of an analogy is often to change the scale so comparison can be made to say, "Does it apply the same in a much greater or much lesser circumstance?" but nobody seems to get that. Evidently if a guy gets drunk, drives off the road, and hits a pole... the only thing analogous to that is another guy getting drunk, driving off the road, and hitting a pole... probably the same pole just to make it work for some people.
Quote:
My G-kids are enrolled in every sport league at the Y and I've yet to hear a parent tell any of their kids that their kid was "the best".
Well as a guy who has coached soccer, baseball, and basketball in recent years, I can tell you that a lot of parents come to you with the... "My kid is so much better than Johnny, why is Johnny starting at shortstop over my kid?" or why isn't my kid batting 3rd because he's the best hitter or why doesn't my kid get more scoring opportunities or why doesn't my kid get to bring the ball up, he/she is the best dribbler. It's hard for me to imagine that this doesn't get discussed in the car on the way home or at the dinner table... so the kid is picking up on it. That said, this is nothing new, I remember my dad talking about it 40 years ago.
Quote:
But I do see kids react disproportionately in a negative way when they lose a game. How healthy is that?
My daughter is 9, when they lose a soccer game they do a cheer for the other team, they make a human tunnel for the other team to run through, the other team makes one for us, then they race to their snacks and get a debrief from the coach on what they did well and what they need to work on. Then they leave the field just a little more somber after a loss than after a win... I would imagine most of them are upset all of about 20 minutes... after that they are home and its outside to play or time to do homework or watch TV or whatever.. it's over for them.
Like everything else in life, if it's managed properly and explained and kept in perspective... it's extremely healthy to be upset when you lose. That's what pushes you to practice and get better. If nobody feels upset when they lose, then they can't really be happy when they win... you either care or you don't.
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 75,111
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 75,111 |
Well put Florida fan. I loved Mr. Rogers as a kid and still hold some of his values to this day. I like the point about believing in yourself. There is a difference between feeling entitled and feeling empowered.
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Jeudy is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Tillman is flanked out wide to the right. Judkins and Ford are split in the backfield as Flacco takes the snap ... Here we go."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
Quote:
If nobody feels upset when they lose, then they can't really be happy when they win... you either care or you don't.
highlighting because it is a great and important point. one that I remind the kids I coach when they get upset and it usually helps them get over being upset in the moment and going back out there to try again (as I've noticed most kids get more upset when they mess up at something during the course of the game rather than losing the game itself in the end).
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465 |
So is the other board coming back anytime soon?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Quote:
(as I've noticed most kids get more upset when they mess up at something during the course of the game rather than losing the game itself in the end).
A little story from this weekends U9 girls soccer tournament. We played 3 games (1 got rained out) and my daughter played goalie for the first half of all 3 games... 72 minutes of shutout goalkeeping.. We were 1-0-2 in the tournament, won 2-1, tied 0-0 and 1-1.. in the third game we were up 1-0 for most of the game, later in the second half they scored on a nice shot to tie the game, the girl who was playing goalie at that point was on the ground, not hurt just upset that she had given up the tying goal. (In reality it was a great shot that very few 9 year old girls would have stopped)... My daughter and another girl ran 20 yards back to the goal to help her up, give her a hug and tell her it was ok.. after the game ended in a tie she was visibly upset and as the team sat around, she mumbled an apology to the rest of the team because "...she was the reason we didn't win..." the rest of the team crowded around her and told that was crap. We didn't win because we only scored 1 goal, not because we gave 1 up. One other girl admitted she was out of position and the girl should have never had that shot opportunity... to a girl, they went around the circle and everybody took some responsibility for the tie... I have never been so proud of a group of 9 year old girls in my life.... I know a lot of adults that don't have that level of maturity..
And that maturity, that team-first attitude, that level of sportsmanship within your own team is developed because they care whether or not they win or lose..
As I tell my daughter all the time, "Sportsmanship" doesn't mean you don't care if you win or not, it's managing your emotions and actions BECAUSE you care.
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,198
Dawg Talker
|
|
OP
Dawg Talker
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,198 |
Quote:
Quote:
WOW!!!! How can you make that connection?
I should just stop making analogies on this board because nobody seems to understand how they work. The purpose of an analogy is often to change the scale so comparison can be made to say, "Does it apply the same in a much greater or much lesser circumstance?" but nobody seems to get that.
No I understand analogies perfectly. The problem is when people misuse them to attempt to prove A = Z.
At that point the anology loses its function.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,198
Dawg Talker
|
|
OP
Dawg Talker
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,198 |
Not sure, but in the meantime I like playing aound.
I apologize if it offends, but on the other hand we were invited.
I'll put an effort into not causing grief, but I'll probably still be annoying even then.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,198
Dawg Talker
|
|
OP
Dawg Talker
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,198 |
Its weird how sometimes kids see things better than adults do. Apparently they have good parents.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,480
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,480 |
Quote:
Yes, that seems more reasonable. i don't know but apparently it has improved the problem.
As a teacher I can tell you that I absolutely agree that parents are the #1 ingredient in student success or failure. But should we punish and hold back kids because their parents aren't doing their jobs. And do we even know WHY parents aren't doing their jobs? Is it because they're ALL useless welfare bums or is it because they're self-centered "me firsters"?
On the flip side, should teachers be punished for trying teach kids that don't care? I guarantee you if you took the "great" teachers from an affluent suburb in any major metropolitan area and had them trade places with "bad" teachers from a poorly performing inner city school the a majority of the "bad" would become "great" and a majority of the "great" teachers would become "bad". I'm not saying all teachers are great as no profession has all great performers, however seeing what my mom dealt with in inner-city Toledo public schools for the last 10 years of her career is a microcosm for where this country is at today. The amount of extra time she put in to try and help these kids who had parents that basically looked as public education as free daycare for the most part went unnoticed and unappreciated. Without parents who care it is virtually impossible to teach most children how important education is.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465 |
It doesn't offend, and I didn't mean it as a personal insult. I just... The blog of some guy that either doesn't understand sarcasm or is desperate to do anything to receive hits? Between that and 'people who vote for Political Party X have bigger penises' threads I'm getting a little wistful for simpler times (that were probably just an inane )
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,934
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,934 |
This is a very difficult question for me ..... because I can see both sides.
I understand how a teacher could be blameless for the inability or unwillingness of kids to learn. Home environments and upbringing all play a part. I know that there are a lot of factors well outside any control of the teacher. I have able to see this position more clearly because of the experiences that people have written on here. It is unfair to punish good teachers who have kids who simply do not see the value in education, or whose parents don't even care if they show up for classes.
On the other hand, teachers are paid to teach. If they don't get results, are they doing the job they are paid to do? That is the very definition of teacher ....... to be one who educates others. The very definition of teachers implies results as part of the equation.
I honestly don't know how you strike a balance so you weed out ineffective teachers, while not punishing good teachers stuck in bad situations. I haven't seen any solution that doesn't manage to drop the ball on one side or the other. I have no idea what the solution is. There may just not be one until and unless we manage to "fix" families in troubled school districts. We will continue to have troubled students as long as we have so many broken families.
I don't know how to fix that either.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,198
Dawg Talker
|
|
OP
Dawg Talker
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,198 |
There was a great article about if you actually paid teachers as if they were baby sitters they would make something like 5 times more than what they do.
Yea, put a teacher from an excellent district into a struggling and they'll find they spend even more of their own money to help their students to learn.
From what I've been able to learn about the evaluations is that they will take certain situations into consideration, but they will still look for progress.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,964
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,964 |
I understand you won't answer direct questions, it's the nature of the beast, but I will try again.
YOU STATED " competition which hurts everyone" - do you really believe that?
The "Conservative Mindset" which you referred to has NOWHERE been mentioned here. What was erroneously stated, which YOU quoted, was something said to be the opinion of FOX NEWS. In case you don't get it, that would be a completely different thing. Second question on the same subject, do you seriously believe you could get more than 1 out of 10 rational adults to listen to that clip and agree that the headline is accurate?
Do you by any chance happen to know a previous poster who went by the user name Charlie? He almost lost his mind trying to deal with the "lazy dumbass" question.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Quote:
No I understand analogies perfectly. The problem is when people misuse them to attempt to prove A = Z.
At that point the anology loses its function.
Well, you stated that they weren't suspending kids anymore because kids who get suspended ended up getting suspended more frequently and ultimately ended up in trouble with the law... My analogy was basically to ask if you thought the answer to correcting misbehavior was to stop punishing people and gave you extreme example of a group that usually doesn't respond to the punishment they are given.
I also asked if they weren't suspending them, then what were they doing... I'm all in favor of alternative forms of discipline/punishment if it's effective at correcting bad behavior...
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,964
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,964 |
I'll tell you what the solution is, what it has Always been.
Don't want to work? Fine, Starve to Death.
Don't have any job skills? Fine, Starve to Death.
Don't want to get an education? Fine, Starve to Death.
It is absolutely amazing how many people will suddenly find motivation and the ability to work when faced with the stark reality that Somebody Else is no longer both willing and able to feed them.
Thousands of people were cut off from feeding from the public trough just a few years ago. NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON actually starved to death. EVERYONE who said they would if working people did not feed them was wrong. This is a lie which does true EVIL; it tells people that they are worthless and further it tells hard-working folks that their labor is worth less than it is.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,198
Dawg Talker
|
|
OP
Dawg Talker
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,198 |
Quote:
I understand you won't answer direct questions, it's the nature of the beast, but I will try again.
YOU STATED " competition which hurts everyone" - do you really believe that?
Here's the thing.
I said, competition at a loss to everybody else. I did not specifically say that I didn't mean the world will end because of competition. I apologize for not being more specific.
Anyway you answered the question yourself. I see the advantages of competition and maybe I didn't make that clear, but there also seems to be an ever increasing importance put on being #1, the biggest, the best, the all-time best...things like that. And quite often you see kids and adults crying about being second in a league with more than a dozen teams.
I also tried to explain that telling a kid they're special does not equate to telling them they are the best that they don't have to put effort into what they do.
I also stated that there is a "conservative" mind set that kids are coddled and made to feel more important than they actually are. I've heard this in a number of different ways from Fox and others, but if you waant to stick with the "joke" thing that's alright.
The "Conservative Mindset" which you referred to has NOWHERE been mentioned here. What was erroneously stated, which YOU quoted, was something said to be the opinion of FOX NEWS. In case you don't get it, that would be a completely different thing. Second question on the same subject, do you seriously believe you could get more than 1 out of 10 rational adults to listen to that clip and agree that the headline is accurate?
Do you by any chance happen to know a previous poster who went by the user name Charlie? He almost lost his mind trying to deal with the "lazy dumbass" question.
In the end it's not that important that Charlie has to lose his mind. I have no idea who he is or why he lost his mind, but while discussings things with you I'm starting to get an idea.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,198
Dawg Talker
|
|
OP
Dawg Talker
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,198 |
Quote:
Quote:
No I understand analogies perfectly. The problem is when people misuse them to attempt to prove A = Z.
At that point the anology loses its function.
Well, you stated that they weren't suspending kids anymore because kids who get suspended ended up getting suspended more frequently and ultimately ended up in trouble with the law... My analogy was basically to ask if you thought the answer to correcting misbehavior was to stop punishing people and gave you extreme example of a group that usually doesn't respond to the punishment they are given.
I also asked if they weren't suspending them, then what were they doing... I'm all in favor of alternative forms of discipline/punishment if it's effective at correcting bad behavior...
Well at least you recognized your anology was extreme. You analogized a suspended kid with a sexual predator, but hey if that works it works.
The discussion is that research shows that there are certain kids who get continually expelled in this Cal. district, African Americans and Hispanics.
Now you could debate if the first suspension actually lead to the rest or whether these kids were predetermined to be suspended kids whether it happened once or not.
I'm not sure what the results are because they are not sure what the results are. What they are doing is keeping the kids in their district and rsponsible for attending school. I'm not sure if the district has established a separate facility, a self-contained classroom or simply detention. The idea is that once you start a kid on a certain identity path they tend to stick with it. So they want to extend the responsible student idea for as long as possible.
The thing about education is there is always a new idea that gets tried out every couple of years or so, some good some bad.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,964
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,964 |
"Do you seriously believe you could get more than 1 out of 10 rational adults to listen to that clip and agree that the headline is accurate?"
|
|
|
DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Mr Rogers is ‘Evil’ According
to Fox News
|
|
