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Gee, nobody saw this coming. Even the staunchest supporters of this farce of a plan are turning against it. It's a good thing they voted for it so they could see what's in it. I love this quote: ..."People said that their members are upset about this and the more they learn about it, the more upset they are,”  It must have been a lucky guess for those crazy conservatives to have predicted this would happen. thehill.com Unions break ranks on ObamaCare By Kevin Bogardus - 05/21/13 05:00 AM ET Labor unions are breaking with President Obama on ObamaCare. Months after the president’s reelection, a variety of unions are publicly balking at how the administration plans to implement the landmark law. They warn that unless there are changes, the results could be catastrophic. The United Food and Commercial Workers International Union (UFCW) — a 1.3 million-member labor group that twice endorsed Obama for president — is very worried about how the reform law will affect its members’ healthcare plans. Last month, the president of the United Union of Roofers, Waterproofers and Allied Workers released a statement calling “for repeal or complete reform of the Affordable Care Act.” UNITE HERE, a prominent hotel workers’ union, and the International Brotherhood of Teamsters are also pushing for changes. In a new op-ed published in The Hill, UFCW President Joe Hansen homed in on the president’s speech at the 2009 AFL-CIO convention. Obama at the time said union members could keep their insurance under the law, but Hansen writes “that the president’s statement to labor in 2009 is simply not true for millions of workers.” Republicans have long attacked Obama’s promise that “nothing in this plan will require you to change your coverage or your doctor.” But the fact that unions are now noting it as well is a clear sign that supporters of the law are growing anxious about the law’s implementation. Many UFCW members have what are known as multi-employer or Taft-Hartley plans. According to the administration’s analysis of the Affordable Care Act, the law does not provide tax subsidies for the roughly 20 million people covered by the plans. Union officials argue that interpretation could force their members to change their insurance and accept more expensive and perhaps worse coverage in the state-run exchanges. Hansen, who is also the head of the Change to Win labor federation, told The Hill that his members often negotiate with their employers to receive better healthcare services instead of higher wages. Those bargaining gains could be wiped away because some employers won’t have the incentive to keep their workers’ multi-employer plans without tax subsidies. “You can’t have the same quality healthcare that you had before, despite what the president said,” Hansen said. “Now what’s going to happen is everybody is going to have to go to private for-profit insurance companies. We just don’t think that’s right. ... We just want to keep what we already have and what we bought at tremendous cost.” If the administration were to expand the subsidies to cover the Taft-Hartley plans, it’s likely that the price tag for ObamaCare would rise, though it’s unclear by how much. Union angst over the healthcare law is being matched by some Democrats on Capitol Hill. Senate Finance Committee Chairman Max Baucus (D-Mont.) has said the law’s implementation could be a “train wreck,” while other senior Democrats, including House Minority Whip Steny Hoyer (D-Md.), have expressed reservations. Both parties agree that ObamaCare is going to be a major issue in the 2014 midterm elections, especially because the bulk of the law is scheduled to go into effect on Jan. 1 next year. Labor recently shared its concerns with senior Democrats. Earlier this month, the subject of how multi-employer health plans would be treated under ObamaCare was brought up at a private May 8 meeting between union leaders and the Senate Democratic Steering and Outreach Committee. “A number of people were making this point at that meeting. People said that their members are upset about this and the more they learn about it, the more upset they are,” said one union official. “I was pretty blunt about it,” said Hansen. “I told them it was a very serious issue. That it was wrong. Taft-Hartley plans should be deemed as qualified healthcare providers and I also said it’s going to have political repercussions if we don’t get this fixed.” Hansen wants the Obama administration to use its regulatory powers to address the matter; a legislative remedy is all but impossible in the divided 113th Congress. “When [the Obama administration] started writing the rules and regulations, we just assumed that Taft-Hartley plans — that workers covered by those plans, especially low-wage workers — would be eligible for the subsidies and stay in their plans and they’re not,” Hansen said. Union anger on multi-employer plans has been percolating for months. In January, The Wall Street Journal reported that UNITE HERE and the Teamsters were pressing the administration. UFCW was also mentioned in that report. Asked why he decided to raise the volume on his worries about ObamaCare, Hansen said he needed to speak out in support of his members. “I owe it to my members to do everything I can to see if we can make this law better,” Hansen said. He added, “[Administration officials] have given us a lot of time and attention. We just don’t agree and I still think that I have taken the correct position. They have been responsive as far as trying to get the meetings. It’s just we can’t get it across the finish line and we need to do that.” Hansen, however, said he has no regrets about endorsing Obama or supporting the healthcare reform law. UFCW is a major Democratic donor, contributing to several of the party’s candidates and giving to last year’s convention in Charlotte, N.C., and this year’s inauguration. The union president said changes to his members’ health insurance might lead to problems at the ballot box for candidates. “What happens in 2014 could be at issue here. ... There is going to be a lot of disenchantment with how did this happen and who was in power when it happened. No matter what I say, that’s going to be there,” Hansen said. “They are upset already and it hasn’t even taken effect already.”
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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Part of me is laughing.
Ha ha - this is what you get when you "have to pass the bill to see what is in the bill"..
The other half of me is scared to death of what this bill will become. We are now finding out (or should I say "they" are finding out) what was in the bill.
Hold on, there's more surprises yet to come. Of course, it's nothing that more tax money can't solve, right?
Who here wants the irs in charge of their health care?
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Oh, I should add: If Obama care caters to the unions and changes things to cater to the unions, all hell better break loose.
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To paraphrase something I heard someone else say:
Once this scheme fails because of "market driven" forces, a single payer system will be pitched as the only acceptable answer. I predict the eventual failure of the Affordable Care Act will be attributed to capitalism and greed - remember it's insurance companies and greedy doctors which are to blame for the high costs of healthcare.
It's a stop gap. It is not supposed to nor ever was it supposed to be a solution. The purpose is to get so complicated and cost so much for the smaller companies that everyone ends up agreeing to a "single payer" (read: tax dollars") solution. No one, not even those in Congress who could talk positively about this horrid piece of crap with a straight face thought any differently about it.
Nobody wanted single-payer, so they ram this thing down our throats so that the next time single-payer is put forth, everyone will grasp at it madly... and if they don't, they have to accept that they are stuck with this piece of crap. Heck, the entire thing is designed to have every "CHOOSE" the Gov't plan.
It was never a solution, it is a cattle prod designed to herd the masses to the Gov't option.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Heck, the entire thing is designed to have every "CHOOSE" the Gov't plan.
....Everyone except those that created this piece of crap. They're somehow exempt. 
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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A lot of people fell in love with the noble goal of making sure everybody had healthcare and it was sold as a 35,000 foot view of utopia... but it doesn't look nearly as good from the ground level.
yebat' Putin
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I wish we could bring charges against our representatives for dereliction of duty for passing this without seeing what was in it.
Then again, they all likely knew what it was all along.
So.... anyone have generally reliable/viable cost estimates for what single-payer is going to end up running us once we finally dump this piece of junk?
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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So.... anyone have generally reliable/viable cost estimates for what single-payer is going to end up running us once we finally dump this piece of junk?
Yea, I got them from the same group that said Obama care was going to save us money, help cut the deficit, and provide health care to everybody... want me to post them? I swear they are reliable.
yebat' Putin
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I am and have been for almost 10 years a UFCW union member and I repeat my earlier post that I regret voting for this President. I was wrong.
Sorta kinda maybe not my fault. I assert that we have not had a good candidate to vote for in years. I'm reduced to voting for the lesser of two evils. I'm kinda tired of that..
SaintDawg™
Football, baseball, basketball, wine, women, walleye
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I voted for him in 2008. Realized my mistake in his first term and voted for the Republican in 2012. Didn't make a difference, but at least my conscience is clear. That being said, I don't buy this notion that the ACA was a ruse to get a single payer system in place. That's conspiracy theory territory. It simply was the most viable thing Obama and the Democrats could get passed into law, so that's what we have.
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I voted for him in 2008. Realized my mistake in his first term and voted for the Republican in 2012. Didn't make a difference, but at least my conscience is clear. That being said, I don't buy this notion that the ACA was a ruse to get a single payer system in place. That's conspiracy theory territory. It simply was the most viable thing Obama and the Democrats could get passed into law, so that's what we have.
I feel like it was really was a case where either the full health care law that the Democrats wanted to pass - or the very restricted changes the Republicans wanted to pass -- would have been better than what we got.
It's not an R or D thing, but partisanship doesn't work on large, complex bills like this.
~Lyuokdea
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I am and have been for almost 10 years a UFCW union member and I repeat my earlier post that I regret voting for this President. I was wrong.
Sorta kinda maybe not my fault. I assert that we have not had a good candidate to vote for in years. I'm reduced to voting for the lesser of two evils. I'm kinda tired of that..
UFCW Local 324 here.  A couple years in a Union Steward conference there was a little issue with health insurance as the fund needed more money.One of the reasons was that child of Union Members could stay on their parent's insurance until 26 because of Obamacare. Of course, the UFCW appeared to still "support" it.
But Congress needs to be voted out over this. They should not be passing bills they do not read. Even Nancy Pelosi admitted it and basically said that they'll read it afterwards. What kind of representation is this?
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](http://i.imgur.com/FUKyw.png) "Don't be burdened by regrets or make your failures an obsession or become embittered or possessed by ruined hopes"
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I voted for no one in 2008 ..... held my nose and voted for Romney in 2012 ... (more a vote against Obama than anything) and sincerely hope that the Republican Party decides to be something other than Democrat Lite as they have been recently. They offer lip service about cutting spending and lowering taxes .... but propose little, and really don't fight for the things they should. If they were serious, I would see someone on the news every single day pushing an agenda that says that we cannot continue spending ourselves into bankruptcy, and pushing an agenda that cuts spending before all else. Daily. Hourly. Instead we get sound bytes at some times, and that's about it. They pass a budget that has some of those value in it, then let it sit, instead of applying pressure. Bleh. We're screwed no matter what happens, and no matter who wins. 
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
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I voted for him in 2008. Realized my mistake in his first term and voted for the Republican in 2012. Didn't make a difference, but at least my conscience is clear. That being said, I don't buy this notion that the ACA was a ruse to get a single payer system in place. That's conspiracy theory territory. It simply was the most viable thing Obama and the Democrats could get passed into law, so that's what we have.
I feel like it was really was a case where either the full health care law that the Democrats wanted to pass - or the very restricted changes the Republicans wanted to pass -- would have been better than what we got.
It's not an R or D thing, but partisanship doesn't work on large, complex bills like this.
Sometimes basic common sense is the best answer of all.
As far as a single payer system goes ... anyone will say anything to get votes, but when it comes time to feed the monkey, you feed the monkey.
There's not a huge precedent for American politicians saying 'thanks for all of the money, but take a hike. You're screwed.' and making it to a second term.
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Obama is on record wanting the single payer system.
I don't understand anyone who didn't see this coming.
And I still don't understand what was wrong with Romney. He was probably the best qualified Presidential candidate in recent memory.
Private equity background. Ex-Governor. Turn around specialist. Highly successful.
Yes he was Mormon and yes he's kind of a square.
But I don't remember a Presidential candidate more suited to fulfill the job at hand.
Oh well...I'm hoping that Marco Rubio gets the nomination for 2016.
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And I still don't understand what was wrong with Romney.
His social policies and his aligning with the "religious" Right is what made it impossible to even consider him.
Granted, I also could never vote for someone named "Mitt"... it's like stepping into a 1980's valley-girl movie and voting for the douchebag ski instructor. Ya just can't do that.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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I wish we could bring charges against our representatives for dereliction of duty for passing this without seeing what was in it.
Then again, they all likely knew what it was all along.
So.... anyone have generally reliable/viable cost estimates for what single-payer is going to end up running us once we finally dump this piece of junk?
My representatives didn't vote for it.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Quote:
Quote:
I wish we could bring charges against our representatives for dereliction of duty for passing this without seeing what was in it.
Then again, they all likely knew what it was all along.
So.... anyone have generally reliable/viable cost estimates for what single-payer is going to end up running us once we finally dump this piece of junk?
My representatives didn't vote for it.
Just one more bit of evidence that I'm in the wrong state.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Quote:
I voted for him in 2008. Realized my mistake in his first term and voted for the Republican in 2012. Didn't make a difference, but at least my conscience is clear. That being said, I don't buy this notion that the ACA was a ruse to get a single payer system in place. That's conspiracy theory territory. It simply was the most viable thing Obama and the Democrats could get passed into law, so that's what we have.
http://youtu.be/fpAyan1fXCE
That's the a swer to your conspiracy theory (if that link works).
Limbaugh, Beck and Hannity played that audio ad nauseoum leading up to the '08 election.
I said this guy would be the second coming of Jimmy Carter on the old board and I was right.
If that link doesn't work (not very good at copying links on my phone) all I googled was 'audio of Obama single payer system', and I got a video of it instead.
WE DON'T NEED A QB BEFORE WE GET A LINE THAT CAN PROTECT HIM
my two cents...
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It's no secret Obama favors the single payer system. This is not the premise of the ACA conspiracy theory. Show me a video with him admitting that he pushed the ACA knowing it would be a failure that would lead to a single payer system. Only then will you have proved the conspiracy theory correct.
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Quote:
Quote:
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I wish we could bring charges against our representatives for dereliction of duty for passing this without seeing what was in it.
Then again, they all likely knew what it was all along.
So.... anyone have generally reliable/viable cost estimates for what single-payer is going to end up running us once we finally dump this piece of junk?
My representatives didn't vote for it.
Just one more bit of evidence that I'm in the wrong state.
There you go. I think you'll find Tennessee a pretty fine place to live if I can make a recommendation.....as long as you stay in east to central Tennessee...Jackson is iffy .....Memphis....a cesspool of freeloaders....stick with the hillbillies of the east who don't take unless they can pay....they find a way to pay the way.
Last edited by Ballpeen; 05/22/13 07:09 PM.
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Spent a weekend partying in Memphis one weekend in '92. I almost got killed more times than I care to count (for real) and almost every time it was simply because I'm a "Yankee". I have no need to ever go back to Memphis.  I knew a few really good guys from the eastern end of the state, though. Still friends with an old shipmate from Gatlinburgh. 
Browns is the Browns
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Thought this was interesting.... http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2013/05/24/obamacare_implementation_good_news.htmlQuote:
You heard it here first from me in April, but I want to reiterate that over the next 18 months you're going to read a lot of stories about problems with Affordable Care Act implementations and many of those stories are going to be accurate but fundamentally Affordable Care Act implementation is going to work out great and people are going to love it.
The latest evidence comes to us today from California, America's largest state and one of the states that's tried the hardest to actually implement ObamaCare well. As Sarah Kliff explains, their exchanges are getting set up and it looks like premiums for "silver" and "bronze" plans are both going to be lower than was previously expected. Far from a "train wreck" in other words, the biggest single set of clients for the program is getting something like a nice smooth TGV ride. There was also good news from Oregon recently, where insurers who had initially come in with high premium bids are now asking to resubmit with cheaper offerings in the face of competition. And the Affordable Care Act's goal of slowing the growth in aggregate health expenditures is also coming true.
Now of course not every state is going to have as happy an experience as California and Oregon.
There are huge swathes of the country where public officials have been deliberately refusing to try to make the new law work well, and congressional Republicans are also doing their best to try to stymie implementation. Those efforts will succeed. Residents of California, Oregon, Maryland, Massachusetts, New York, and other eager implementers will see much larger gains from the new law than residents of Texas, Florida, and Alabama. And since a very large share of uninsured Americans live in those red states, this will be a real tragedy for the country. But even in those places, people are going to end up better off than they were pre-ObamaCare and the basic logic of politics is that over time state officials in most places should put some effort into trying to make things work.
You have to remember a few basic facts about ACA implementation coverage over the next 18 months. One is that the media has a large negativity bias. The other is that the aspirations of the law are quite high, and the status quo quite bad. That means any time the situation improves but doesn't improve as much as the Obama administration wanted things to improve, that will tend to be covered as "bad news for ObamaCare". That tendency will be reenforced because Republicans will be eager to trumpet ObamaCare's shortcomings (to make Obama look bad) and advocates for the poor will also be eager to trumpet ObamaCare's shortcomings (to build pressure for improvement). So you'll hear lots of completely accurate stories about things not working quite as well as proponents had hoped. Just recall that this is always how things go. Back ten years ago, Democrats were banking on implementation problems with Medicare Part D to spark a backlash against the Bush administration. The implementation problems were real enough, but at the end of the day more seniors got cheaper medicine than ever before and they liked it. Or roll the clock back to the mid-1960s and there was tons of hand-wringing around Medicare implementation.
The key difference is that journalists tend to cover new programs relative to politicians' promises about them, while beneficiaries judge new programs in terms of the impact on their lives. And the bottom line here is that a small number of high-income individuals are going to pay more taxes on their investment income, while a large number of working class Americans are going to get free or discounted health insurance. There are plenty of writers out there who I read and respect who quite genuinely believe that taxing rich people's investment income in order to bolster the living standards of the bottom third of the population is disastrous long-term public policy, but in concrete terms this has all the hallmarks of a successful and popular initiative.
~Lyuokdea
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Here is a differing opinion on the happiness that is Obamacare going on in CA. California Fudges the Math on Obamacare Some supporters of Obamacare are willing to try every trick in the book to convince a skeptical public that the law may actually lower health insurance premiums. Case in point: Covered California, the state-run health insurance exchange, yesterday heralded a conclusion that individual health insurance premiums in 2014 may be less than they are today. Covered California predicted that rates for individuals in 2014 will range from 2 percent above to 29 percent below average small employer premiums this year. Does anything about that sound strange to you? It should. The only way Covered California's experts arrive at their conclusion is to compare apples to oranges -- that is, comparing next year’s individual premiums to this year’s small employer premiums. They’re making this particular comparison, they explain, because they believe that the marketplace for individually purchased insurance will look like the marketplace for small employer-purchased insurance next year. For example, the state already requires insurers to issue policies to all comers in the small employer market. Premiums are therefore higher today for small employers than for individuals purchasing coverage on their own. What this means, however, is that Covered California is creating for itself a very favorable and already higher baseline from which to compare next year’s individual health insurance premiums. That’s how they’re able to create the appearance that Obamacare’s reforms will lower individual premiums. To put it simply: Covered California is trying to make consumers think they’re getting more for less when, in fact, they’re just getting the same while paying more. Yet there are many plans on the individual market in California today that offer a structure and benefits that are almost identical to those that will be available on the state’s health insurance exchange next year. So, let’s make an actual apples-to-apples comparison for the hypothetical 25-year-old male living in San Francisco and making more than $46,000 a year. Today, he can buy a PPO plan from a major insurer with a $5,000 deductible, 30 percent coinsurance, a $10 co-pay for generic prescription drugs, and a $7,000 out-of-pocket maximum for $177 a month. According to Covered California, a “Bronze” plan from the exchange with nearly the same benefits, including a slightly lower out-of-pocket maximum of $6,350, will cost him between $245 and $270 a month. That’s anywhere from 38 percent to 53 percent more than he’ll have to pay this year for comparable coverage! Sounds a lot different than the possible 29 percent “decrease” touted by Covered California in their faulty comparison. While Covered California acknowledges that it’s tough to compare premiums pre- and post-Obamacare, at the very least, it could have made a legitimate comparison so consumers could fairly evaluate the impacts of Obamacare. Unfortunately, what California authorities have done here is all too common in efforts to make Obamacare look like a good deal for American consumers. In recent weeks, Democrats have pointed to projections from some of the country’s most heavily regulated states, including Vermont and Maryland, to argue that premium increases next year won’t be as bad as people think. But many of these states -- including California -- already have in place some or all of the reforms that Obamacare mandates. To see the true impact of the law, we’ll have to wait for less-heavily-regulated states to reveal what next year’s premiums will look like. Let’s hope they don’t resort to the same misleading tactics that California authorities did. (Lanhee Chen is a Bloomberg View columnist and a research fellow at the Hoover Institution at Stanford University. He was the policy director of Mitt Romney’s 2012 presidential campaign.)
#gmstrong
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I think the point of Yglesias's article - and why it goes beyond the article you posted, is that it points out that most media coverage will be negative - and will be correct.
Even conceding all of the problems that will come up (and be widely covered by the media) - the overall effect will be positive, he argues.
Not sure if I buy it. But it's more interesting than your average article which compares two numbers and gives no sense of greater context (and even admits that one line after the only point it makes).
~Lyuokdea
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I'm curious why you think the media, which fawned over this when it was introduced and bled printers dry writing nice things about how great it would be, are now intent on only writing the negative?
yebat' Putin
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I'm curious why you think the media, which fawned over this when it was introduced and bled printers dry writing nice things about how great it would be, are now intent on only writing the negative?
The controversial thing is what sells papers.
"Everything is going great" looks like terrible investigative journalism.
And I certainly don't mean that there won't be problems (even big ones) - and it's the media's job to report on those. But it's very hard to see the forest for the trees often.
Last edited by Lyuokdea; 05/24/13 04:53 PM.
~Lyuokdea
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But doesn't that theory make it very easy to defend ones preconceived notion of things?
If the media was writing about how great Obamacare was going, those who support it would be applauding those articles... but since most of the articles are negative, well that's just because the media is negative, things are actually going to be fine. At what point do people start to think.. y'know, this isn't really going well at all...
yebat' Putin
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,480
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,480 |
Quote:
But doesn't that theory make it very easy to defend ones preconceived notion of things?
If the media was writing about how great Obamacare was going, those who support it would be applauding those articles... but since most of the articles are negative, well that's just because the media is negative, things are actually going to be fine. At what point do people start to think.. y'know, this isn't really going well at all...
It's very hard to separate the signal from the noise (to quote silver) -- that's the whole point of Yglesias's article - there's a lot more noise in media reports than there is anything of substance.
~Lyuokdea
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 919
All Pro
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All Pro
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 919 |
jc The Obama administration will now delay a key provision of the Affordable Care Act specifically created to bring affordable health care coverage to employees of small businesses. The frightening part of all these delays in the last few months is the stark fact that time itself is running out. January 1, 2014 is supposed to be the date for total enactment of the health care law. 
GO BROWNS!
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,826
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,826 |
j/c Ran across this today. Make of it what you will, but if you think costs are going down, better re-think. http://www.c-spanvideo.org/clip/4453678
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Unions break ranks on ObamaCare
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