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Around the NFL: Looking at the best of these Browns By Steve Doerschuk CantonRep.com staff writer Posted May 25, 2013 @ 11:53 PM The gates are open in Berea again. The media has been invited to soak in two hours of full-squad practices the last two Thursdays. As we see new head coach Rob Chudzinski’s team beginning to take shape, here is one view of the Browns’ 15 best players. Then, we look at who might move up as spring practice flows into training camp. THE BEST 1, Left tackle Joe Thomas. Six Pro Bowls later ... Upside What you see is what you get. The guess is at least half his NFL playing career is behind him. 2, Cornerback Joe Haden. In theory, last year’s suspension left him with a new, improved head. Upside The team was a mess by the time he came back last year. If he has matured, he should have a Pro Bowl in him. 3, Safety T.J. Ward. It would be asking a lot for him to take one more nice step and approach the Reed-Polamalu line. It isn’t out of the question. Upside There was one current of sentiment that he is close to reaching his potential. He made Peter King’s All-Pro team in 2012. 4, Outside linebacker Paul Kruger. On a roster with an alarming lack of playoff experience, he had two sacks in this year’s Super Bowl. Upside At age 27, in his fifth NFL season, he’s scheduled for more snaps than he’s ever played in the NFL. The Browns bet $40 million he is more than he was allowed to show in Baltimore. 5, Wide receiver Josh Gordon. While a member of the Baylor Bears in 2010, he and a teammate fell asleep in a drive-through line at a Taco Bell. Police came. There was trouble ... then more trouble later. The kid, 22 now, had better not be putting on just a good act that makes it appear he has woken up. Upside Gordon logged in at 6-foot-31⁄8, 224 pounds 10 months ago in his workout prior to the supplemental draft. That kind of size, coupled with his speed and (when he is focused) sixth sense for getting open make him a dangerous man. 6, Inside linebacker D’Qwell Jackson. The Browns are famous for doomed story lines, but here’s a guy who has played 32 straight games after a two-year injury nightmare. Upside He will turn 30 in September, but he thinks the new coordinator will give him freedom that could result in a career year. 7, Center Alex Mack. Some scouts say Mack has become a good, but not great, center. Mack is the type of fighter who would like to put a good drive block on those scouts. Upside Mack is close to as good as he is going to get. Since that places him among the league’s top third of centers, it’s not a bad place to have plateaued. 8, Wide receiver Greg Little. He grew up and finished strong, becoming the team’s most consistently reliable target in the last month of 2012. Upside There should be plenty. He lights up in talking about the new coaches’ scheme. He is less than three years removed from sitting out his last year of college ball. He turns 24 next week. 9, Running back Trent Richardson. That his per-carry average was a meager 3.6 as a rookie raised concerns about being worth a No. 3 overall pick. Upside Subtract last year’s injuries. Add a coordinator who has a long history of nurturing running backs. Acknowledge his year of experience. He could become one of the team’s best players. 10, Outside linebacker Barkevious Mingo. Jackson has been around long enough to say Mingo is coming along fairly well and leave it at that. Rookie mistakes might outnumber big plays for a while. Upside The chiefs think he can become one of best pass rushers on the planet. 11, Nose tackle Phil Taylor. Tom Heckert saw him as such a fit for Dick Jauron’s 4-3 that he traded up from No. 27 to No. 21 to draft him. Upside Two years later, new coaches must prove they can wedge him into Ray Horton’s scheme. The jury is out coming off a season half wrecked by a pectoral tear. 12, Defensive lineman Ahtyba Rubin. The new coaches must find a role that expands rather than reduces his impact. Upside Rubin is young for a sixth-year player, not turning 27 until July. 13, Wide receiver Davone Bess. He caught 61 of rookie quarterback Ryan Tannehill’s passes in 13 starts last year. Upside He still is young, turning 28 in September, and seems to be warming up to Norv Turner’s offense, coming off a coordinator carousel in Miami. 14, Defensive lineman Desmond Bryant. Beyond the stats, Browns coaches and scouts like the way he made quarterbacks alter their behavior in 2012, when he was a fourth-year Raider. Upside At 27, coming off his best year, he strikes coaches as the type to be inspired by a big new contract, rather than made comfortable by it. 15, Outside linebacker Jabaal Sheard. He made six of seven 2012 sacks in the second half of 2012, including two in the season finale at Pittsburgh. Upside He seemed to be a natural as a 4-3 end. Here’s another case where coaches must be careful about wasting talent. He totaled four sacks against the Ravens and Steelers last year. MOVE LIST • Quarterback Brandon Weeden does not make the initial list. He needs to climb on to it. Basically, how high Weeden climbs into the top 15 will reflect how much the Browns improve in the AFC North standings. • Tight end Jordan Cameron is athletic enough to knock on the door, but he was nonexistent through much of his first two years in the league. If he becomes a factor, both Weeden and the team will be better. If not, tight end could become a crippling weakness. • Cornerback Buster Skrine is fast enough to make the list. Horton even calls him “a dynamic player.” He has yet to prove, though, that he is good enough to start, or even to be a consistent No. 3 corner. web page
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I'm predicting that the nay-sayers will smell the positive vibe of this thread and converge here soon like sharks with blood in the water. But, before they do I would add RT Schwartz to the upside list, he held that position down beyond expectations last year. Also I would add DL depth represented by Hughes and Winn as another upside of the team. They both flashed ability last season and should be integral parts of the attack front seven.
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Quote:
I'm predicting that the nay-sayers will smell the positive vibe of this thread and converge here soon like sharks with blood in the water.
Nice prediction, but you can dismiss points of view by calling people "nay-sayers" and compare them to sharks smelling blood in the water, but the fact of the matter is this:
Take a long, close look at this list.
--Is our QB on it? Do you realize if he sucks, we suck?
--Just how good is that list of top 15 players? How much have they proven? How much have they accomplished? How do they compare to other teams top 15?
Would you like to see our top 15 against teams like SF, Seattle, NE, Denver, Atlanta, etc?
Heck, do you wanna see them against teams like Cinci, Washington, Dallas, New Orleans, etc.
Look at it. Seriously..............look at it again. Joe Thomas. Wow! He is awesome. He would be on anyone's list. Joe Haden? Pretty good player. I am a little disappointed that he hasn't played on an island, but good player. Our # 3 player is TJ Ward? LMAO.........just stop right there. That shows how terribly pathetic we are. Gordon at #5? Really? A guy who shows PROMISE, but hasn't proved anything yet and is a guy who got kicked out of not one, but two colleges. Number 5? OMG!
I know this isn't a popular opinion around here, but I think people on the boards severely overrate our talent. I watch us play against teams like Denver, Washington, and the Giants and I think..............we are dramatically outmanned.
But yeah, I am a nay-sayer who is like a shark in the water and therefore.............my opinion is worthless. Because, it's all good, man. 
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I completely agree that if our QB sucks... we WILL suck. Of course, that's true of every other team so doesn't mean much I guess. With that said, I think our talent level is better than we get credit for. Not surprising because until we win some games we can't expect anyone to give us credit. I like our O&D lines, linebackers, WRs (Gordon and Little will shine), RBs (if Trent can stop dancing otherwise give me more Hardestly/Jackson. But yes... if our QB sucks it won't matter all that much. Can't argue with that. 
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Quote:
I know this isn't a popular opinion around here, but I think people on the boards severely overrate our talent. I watch us play against teams like Denver, Washington, and the Giants and I think..............we are dramatically outmanned.
Is this our most talented group that have been in Cleveland in awhile? Maybe. As of now though it's all opinion and theory. They need to put together some Ws or we're having this same conversation with a slightly different 15 next year.
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I see a competitive roster and an exciting team. Couple rookie mistakes cost us wins against good teams. We were one dropped pass away from going 3-3 in the division and that was a division that put up 2 playoff teams once again.
How do we stack up with the other teams? I think pretty damn good but the question of quarterback is the billion dollar question. If we get Average play from that position, we can compete for a playoff spot.
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Quote:
Quote:
I'm predicting that the nay-sayers will smell the positive vibe of this thread and converge here soon like sharks with blood in the water.
Nice prediction, but you can dismiss points of view by calling people "nay-sayers" and compare them to sharks smelling blood in the water, but the fact of the matter is this:
Take a long, close look at this list.
--Is our QB on it? Do you realize if he sucks, we suck?
--Just how good is that list of top 15 players? How much have they proven? How much have they accomplished? How do they compare to other teams top 15?
Would you like to see our top 15 against teams like SF, Seattle, NE, Denver, Atlanta, etc?
Heck, do you wanna see them against teams like Cinci, Washington, Dallas, New Orleans, etc.
Look at it. Seriously..............look at it again. Joe Thomas. Wow! He is awesome. He would be on anyone's list. Joe Haden? Pretty good player. I am a little disappointed that he hasn't played on an island, but good player. Our # 3 player is TJ Ward? LMAO.........just stop right there. That shows how terribly pathetic we are. Gordon at #5? Really? A guy who shows PROMISE, but hasn't proved anything yet and is a guy who got kicked out of not one, but two colleges. Number 5? OMG!
I know this isn't a popular opinion around here, but I think people on the boards severely overrate our talent. I watch us play against teams like Denver, Washington, and the Giants and I think..............we are dramatically outmanned.
But yeah, I am a nay-sayer who is like a shark in the water and therefore.............my opinion is worthless. Because, it's all good, man.
You know as well as I do that if we stacked up our 15 against those teams you mentioned its damn near equal. Except of course for QB. And as you already acknowledged thats the difference. Because I can guarantee you this ...if we can get top third QB play all those guys on the list will play better and get more pub.
Teams are all built the same way. And each GM is smart in their own right. I'm sure there are a few anomalies. But every team ...even the great ones ...have mid round picks starting all over the place. Are they really that much better than our guys? The answer is no. They have solved the QB and coaching riddles. Unless your GM is a complete moron, if you've solved those two problems...you will have success ...then your Dashon Goldsons of the world will have success also.
Coaching, QB, culture, confidence ....4 ingredients for success. So yes, sans QB our 15 match up very well with the rest.
Now its up to Chud and Weeds.
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Quote:
4, Outside linebacker Paul Kruger. On a roster with an alarming lack of playoff experience, he had two sacks in this year’s Super Bowl.
Upside At age 27, in his fifth NFL season,he’s scheduled for more snaps than he’s ever played in the NFL. The Browns bet $40 million he is more than he was allowed to show in Baltimore.
I think this is debatable. He was starting for part of the season in Baltimore, and Mingo/Sheard/Groves are all going to get their playing time. Even if he starts all sixteen games here in Cleveland, this rotation is very strong and I really think they're all going to get their snaps. And we also have to consider that Kruger played much better when his snaps played went down and his starting job was taken away.
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Agreed.
Talent ain't the issue. We're solidly in the middle third talent wise from top to bottom on our roster. If we get competent QB play...top 10-20 QB play... then we are competing for a spot in the playoffs the final two weeks of the season. If we don't then we're a 5 win team again.
If by chance the light comes on upstairs for Weeden and he uses his arm talent to the best of his ability I have no doubt that we will be competing for the AFC North championship.
The people complaining about the talent on our roster don't know football period.
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I think we've got some talented guys, but there are definitely some question marks. I think we still have a bunch of question marks that we went into the off-season with: #2 corner, free safety, inside linebacker, tight end, fullback, guard situation needs to shake out. The good news is none of those are really make-or-break spots for the team.
Of course, there is one more high-profile position I'm not real confident in, but I don't know what else they could have done this off-season to secure that spot.
I think the writer is making a pretty bold statement putting Mingo ahead of Taylor and Rubin.
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Where to begin...the talent on this team has improved over the past few years. My response was an acknowledgement of that improvement. Not a comparison to other teams. The only meaningful comparison will be on the field, during the season, what's happened in past seasons isn't overly important to me.
If I had been directing my comment to you, Vers, specifically I would have said that your outlook leans toward the negative, but is usually fair. If that works for you, I love it. On more than one occasion I've learned something from reading your post. But when you indulge in a diatribe of misery I just keep it moving.
Speaking for myself only, I tend to focus on the positive potential of the team simply because it's more fun.
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Quote:
I see a competitive roster and an exciting team. Couple rookie mistakes cost us wins against good teams. We were one dropped pass away from going 3-3 in the division and that was a division that put up 2 playoff teams once again.
How do we stack up with the other teams? I think pretty damn good but the question of quarterback is the billion dollar question. If we get Average play from that position, we can compete for a playoff spot.
This!
Everybody knows this is a QB-driven league and it's a do or die season for Weeden to boom or bust. I will also throw in TRich into the equation though....if he can't stay healthy or perform he's as much a potential problem as Weeden. Last year we led in the 2nd/3rd Qtrs of games a lot that we ended up losing and a big part of that was the inability of TRich to get crucial 1st downs to prolong drives...I'm not even asking for a big play here and there, which should be expected out of a 2rd overall pick, just 1st downs and he just didn't deliver neither.
If both those guys play AVG to above AVG ball, then I think we will be able to be around .500 all season, as I think the rest of the roster matches up well with the rest of the league, especially in the trenches
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Lets hope they all improve and none get slapped with a 4 game suspension.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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So, you are agreeing w/Held that I don't know football?
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Btw---here are some of the top players for the 49ers. Off the top of my head:
Patrick Willis
Frank Gore
Joe Staley
Aldon Smith
Colin Kapernick
Vernon Davis
Donte Whitmer
Mike Iaputa
Michael Crabtree
Justin Smith
Navaro Bowman
Anquan Boldin
Mario Manningham
Ahmad Brooks
Carlos Rodgers
Alex Boone
Ray McDonald
Seriously?
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Are the 49ers a "middle third" talent team?
Nobody is saying the Browns are a top 10 team outside of the QB. What most in this thread ARE saying is that we can play .500 ball, compete for POs IF the QB (and imho RB) is in the 10th to 20th best range league wide, which in math terms would look like:
.500 Team + X (.500 QB/RB play) ~ .500 record
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Quote:
Quote:
I'm predicting that the nay-sayers will smell the positive vibe of this thread and converge here soon like sharks with blood in the water.
Nice prediction, but you can dismiss points of view by calling people "nay-sayers" and compare them to sharks smelling blood in the water, but the fact of the matter is this:
Take a long, close look at this list.
--Is our QB on it? Do you realize if he sucks, we suck?
--Just how good is that list of top 15 players? How much have they proven? How much have they accomplished? How do they compare to other teams top 15?
Would you like to see our top 15 against teams like SF, Seattle, NE, Denver, Atlanta, etc?
Heck, do you wanna see them against teams like Cinci, Washington, Dallas, New Orleans, etc.
Look at it. Seriously..............look at it again. Joe Thomas. Wow! He is awesome. He would be on anyone's list. Joe Haden? Pretty good player. I am a little disappointed that he hasn't played on an island, but good player. Our # 3 player is TJ Ward? LMAO.........just stop right there. That shows how terribly pathetic we are. Gordon at #5? Really? A guy who shows PROMISE, but hasn't proved anything yet and is a guy who got kicked out of not one, but two colleges. Number 5? OMG!
I know this isn't a popular opinion around here, but I think people on the boards severely overrate our talent. I watch us play against teams like Denver, Washington, and the Giants and I think..............we are dramatically outmanned.
But yeah, I am a nay-sayer who is like a shark in the water and therefore.............my opinion is worthless. Because, it's all good, man.
I gots a newsflash for you Mr pessimistic.
ALL 15 of those guys START for any team in this league. BANK THAT.
If you ever get your head outta your collective butt and stop slamming Heckert you might actually make sense once in awhile.
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Quote:
I gots a newsflash for you Mr pessimistic.
ALL 15 of those guys START for any team in this league. BANK THAT.
If you ever get your head outta your collective butt and stop slamming Heckert you might actually make sense once in awhile.
Nice insult about my head and butt. I'm sure that makes your statement more true.
START for any team in the league, huh?
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Quote:
I see a competitive roster and an exciting team. Couple rookie mistakes cost us wins against good teams. We were one dropped pass away from going 3-3 in the division and that was a division that put up 2 playoff teams once again.
How do we stack up with the other teams? I think pretty damn good but the question of quarterback is the billion dollar question. If we get Average play from that position, we can compete for a playoff spot.
You got that right Mour.
Weeden's drivin' this bus and I am superbly confident that he's going to shine under Chud and Turner. Everyone is licking their chops at the potential of this offense.
So confident in Weed's that $1000 went on the OVER 5.5 Wins last week. Now it's at 6.
It blows my mind that people who watched the 2007 version of a Chud Offense can't see the leaves thru the damn tree. We are MUCH better all over this offense and actually have a QB that can hit a short one outta the backfield.
New Offense? My ass. It was a NEW Offense in 2007 with a QB who wasn't even on the same planet game one. (Frye started game one's slaughter).
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One encouraging thing with Weeden is improved footwork. I was very very critical of his footwork last year and knew before the season started that he was going to have a ton of balls batted down because he simply wasnt getting deep enough in his drops.
His feet weren't getting him back quick enough so he tried to cheat his way into clearing distance. Its amazing the OL didnt give up 50 sacks.
Whoever worked with him in the offseason did a fantastic job. When NFLN was at our first OTA, the difference was alarming. I thought he was getting his depth quicker in the 5 step this year than he did in the 3 step last year. Also when his foot landed, he was in position to throw. How many times last year did u see the guy finish his drop and his feet were damn neard side by side? I hated that.
Better feet should produce better accuracy. It should also allow him to see the field better as he is getting more distance in his drops.
Personally, I am still hoping Lombardi finds a way to get Mallett over here lol.
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Something else I just noticed elsewhere looking at our current roster.
We may be the 2nd or 3rd youngest roster in the league but our young guys are more experienced game wise than anyone else's young roster.
That's huge. Just sayin'.
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1. thank you Tom Heckert - for finally getting us a foundation to build on.
2. Weeden was a rookie in a badly ran offense. Never the less he will be 30 soon so he will get this year to make his mark. Bad vs. Good...you all are fooling yourselves if you think one way or another for certain.
3. Agree with the poster who states Schwartz should be on that list. Right now he is ahead of Mack on that list.
4. Next two years can be Fun or depressing. Hope our new guys can continue adding onto the foundation. Love Kruger, Bryant, Mingo, Bess as significant additions. Also don't underestimate the kid TE we got from Chud's Panthers. He seems like one of those Pita type of TEs. We will be utilizing 2 TE more than dawgs realize...whey we didn't put much attention to the FB position. Marecic - curious what he will do with his new BODY?
5. I'm hoping  the Negative Posters can bag their claim to Realistic Opinion! 
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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j/c
It's very nice to see so many positive responses. Yet I don't see how they can be based in reality.
Do we have players that "should have" upside? Yes we do.
Do we have players that have shown potential? Yes we do.
But how many of those players are unproven?
In reality many must admit they are basing these positive opinions on upside and potential far more than anything. I'm not opposed to that as much as I think many should admit these opinions are based far more on wishful thinking than any positive results we've seen on the field of play.
And we can all sit here and blame former coaching or former FO's, but none of us really know if our talent stacks up well or not. There's far too much youth and unproven players to this point to actually say one way or the other to this point.
This is why I believe we didn't see a huge roster turnover during this past offseason. Even our FO is taking a wait and see approach in regards to how much of our youth steps up, or doesn't step up. Only time will truly answer that.
JMHO
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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No, I'm agreeing that the Browns are easily in the "middle third" of the league in terms of talent, as Held wrote. This team will compete for a Wild Card spot if Weeden is decent, if not; they'll probably win five games again.
But some teams in this league have very little talent. Cleveland doesn't have this issue. The only thing on this roster that scares the crap out of me is whoever starts across from Haden at CB. Like I've written ad nauseum, I think *that* CB (most likely third round pick McFadden) is going to get burned all year. Or at least that's what history tell us.
This team has other holes and areas of concern, but that's the one that really scares me. Chud has had success with seemingly every starting TE he's ever worked with so I'm not concerned Cameron. ILB is usually a relatively easy position to just plug guys in at. Bardemosi projects well as a FS, and honestly, that's not a position of utmost importance in this league anyways, IMO. Same goes for guards.
Last edited by PowderBlue11; 05/27/13 11:56 AM.
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Quote:
You know as well as I do that if we stacked up our 15 against those teams you mentioned its damn near equal. Except of course for QB. And as you already acknowledged thats the difference. Because I can guarantee you this ...if we can get top third QB play all those guys on the list will play better and get more pub.
Teams are all built the same way. And each GM is smart in their own right. I'm sure there are a few anomalies. But every team ...even the great ones ...have mid round picks starting all over the place. Are they really that much better than our guys? The answer is no. They have solved the QB and coaching riddles. Unless your GM is a complete moron, if you've solved those two problems...you will have success ...then your Dashon Goldsons of the world will have success also.
Coaching, QB, culture, confidence ....4 ingredients for success. So yes, sans QB our 15 match up very well with the rest.
Now its up to Chud and Weeds.
Out of that list only two pro-bowlers exists and most haven't proved anything. It is all speculation. You hope players from the list live up to the reputation. In the end, comparing Browns to the 49er's wins and pro bowlers are not equal.
I guess I'm a nay-sayer too. I'm tired of looking at the Browns on paper and the w-l columns at years end. They never match-up.
I will say this. I've more hope for this team then the last three years. Can a rookie HC pull it out his first year having Weeden as his QB? Who is running to Vegas with a Benjamin in hand?
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 70,640 Likes: 510 |
j/c
I wouldn't say that ALL 15 of those guys would start on any team. You couldn't find a team in the league who had 15 starters who could ALL start on the other teams. For instance, would Davone Bess start for the Broncos now? I doubt it. Would Dez Bryant start for the Giants? Probably not. I also don't think TJ Ward would start for more than half of the league. And you could say that for most others on the list.
BUT I do agree that the talent level of this team is slowly rising. Obviously we have more talent than the team with Mangini. But I also don't think we are even a .500 team yet.
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,728
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Aug 2007
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Quote:
Btw---here are some of the top players for the 49ers. Off the top of my head:
Patrick Willis
Frank Gore
Joe Staley
Aldon Smith
Colin Kapernick
Vernon Davis
Donte Whitmer
Mike Iaputa
Michael Crabtree
Justin Smith
Navaro Bowman
Anquan Boldin
Mario Manningham
Ahmad Brooks
Carlos Rodgers
Alex Boone
Ray McDonald
Seriously?
If I was you I'd respond with the top 15 from the Jacksonville Jaguars and call you an idiot in a roundabout way.
I know that middle third is a difficult concept. Only you would try to repudiate my assertion with the deepest, most talented team in the league.
Why don't you try another team....and I'll give you a playoff team, the Indianapolis Colts.
And tell me how we stack up outside of starting QB.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465 |
This... Quote:
ALL 15 of those guys START for any team in this league. BANK THAT.
...followed by this ...
Quote:
So confident in Weed's that $1000 went on the OVER 5.5 Wins last week.
...makes me a little scared for you. 
Hope we get 6 this year.
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,313 Likes: 36
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,313 Likes: 36 |
Quote:
No, I'm agreeing that the Browns are easily in the "middle third" of the league in terms of talent, as Held wrote. This team will compete for a Wild Card spot if Weeden is decent, if not; they'll probably win five games again.
But some teams in this league have very little talent. Cleveland doesn't have this issue. The only thing on this roster that scares the crap out of me is whoever starts across from Haden at CB. Like I've written ad nauseum, I think *that* CB (most likely third round pick McFadden) is going to get burned all year. Or at least that's what history tell us.
This team has other holes and areas of concern, but that's the one that really scares me. Chud has had success with seemingly every starting TE he's ever worked with so I'm not concerned Cameron. ILB is usually a relatively easy position to just plug guys in at. Bardemosi projects well as a FS, and honestly, that's not a position of utmost importance in this league anyways, IMO. Same goes for guards.
I appreciate your point of view since I don't believe you are a lifer as many of us are so you have some objectivity. Where we differ is that I see multiple risks to the team's success. It could be as you stated the #2 CB, it could be the pass rush, it might be the QB play, it could be WR production or underperformance in the running game. It might be any combination of those unknowns or other areas. Or the team might make a jump in several of those areas this season. I felt as if the talent improved last year so another jump is not out of the question this season.
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 15,979 Likes: 83
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 15,979 Likes: 83 |
Quote:
j/c
But how many of those players are unproven?
In reality many must admit they are basing these positive opinions on upside and potential far more than anything. I'm not opposed to that as much as I think many should admit these opinions are based far more on wishful thinking than any positive results we've seen on the field of play.
And we can all sit here and blame former coaching or former FO's, but none of us really know if our talent stacks up well or not. There's far too much youth and unproven players to this point to actually say one way or the other to this point.
The only thing unproven about the offense, is consistency and high level of play. And now the new coaching, but I was talking about the players.
I'll give you the Db's, half of the Db's are unproven, but do you really think this front 7 is unproven? Well they have yet to play together.
The O-line, any way they do it, unless Gilkey wins a starting job, are going to have played at least 6 games as a group together before, and that's important. ( Then there is the new coordinator/HC/ offense, that are a ?).
The wideouts, the top 6 are going to be, Gordon, Little, Bess, Benjamin, Nelson,and Norwood. Where is the rookie unproven player? ( then there is the new offense ?).
The tight ends are all going to be a wait and see.
The runningbacks are goint to be Richardson, Hardesty, and Dion Lewis, Or, Brandon Jackson. (I can't find the rookie who's never played a game, just some who need to play at a higher level.)
The front 7? Cmon? Everybody knows. The biggest question marks on defense, are who is going to take the roles that Young, Patterson, and Brown had, and if Bademosi and Gipson move to a more primary role, who is going to take over the secondary role they displayed last season.
Most of the players are not unproven, in that they've never played in the NFL before. Most of them are just not great, and that is a sense of unproven.
How are they gonna beat the Dolphins, that's all that matters!
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499 Likes: 906
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499 Likes: 906 |
Quote:
If I was you I'd respond with the top 15 from the Jacksonville Jaguars and call you an idiot in a roundabout way.
I know that middle third is a difficult concept. Only you would try to repudiate my assertion with the deepest, most talented team in the league.
Why don't you try another team....and I'll give you a playoff team, the Indianapolis Colts.
And tell me how we stack up outside of starting QB.
What are you talking about? I didn't even respond to you. I made my first reply to guard dawg.
I apologize that I don't agree w/you about how GREAT our roster is. It is a difference of opinion. Big deal. But, you get bent out of shape w/"only you..." 
I feel that our roster has a lot of question marks. I don't think it is proven yet. I think people can have hope that all those guys work out, but most of them haven't proven it yet. There is no guarantee that they will be good/great players. I am NOT saying that they won't be good, but I feel it is too early to say we have a good roster.
I have no problem if you and others think we have a great roster, but I am not believing it. I have a right to express my opinion. I can't help it if you can't handle opposing opinions.
Furthermore, I think that you certainly must consider how good the QB is. Our QB didn't even make the top 15. That's a real problem---you know---in my opinion.
Last edited by Versatile Dog; 05/28/13 07:06 AM.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 67,771 Likes: 1341
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 67,771 Likes: 1341 |
Here are some basic questions.
How many of our WR's have caught for 1000 yards?
How many of our RB's have rushed for over 1000 yards?
Having some game experience does not prove that you can be a winning team. As I said, our team is unproven in terms of many of our players producing at a high level on a consistant basis. It's just that simple.
And you do mention the front seven. Many of these players have never played in the 3-4. How quickly this comes together will be big in how our season plays out. And yes, even those who think our secondary somehow doesn't matter anymore.. lol..... know we have some real questions there. Even though they try hard to convince themselves and others it just isn't so.
I'm not saying this team can't come together and be a winner. What I am saying is we are counting on a lot of players to step up and play to a level they have never done before in order for that to happen. I don't believe the odds of that happening are nearly as great as some portray it to be.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Joined: Oct 2006
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 16,741 Likes: 396 |
You acknowledge that a QB is the most important person on the roster and elevates everyone's game. You also acknowledge that the Browns have not found that QB yet.
Kinda hard to slam the roster when we need the QB to figure out if they are any good.
Kind of funny how Patrick Willis, Vernon Davis, Joe Staley, Frank Gore, and Michael Crabtree were producing 5 win seasons for the 9ers until Harbaugh came along and got the most out of Smith. Hell, Crabtree was a borderline bust until last year. (On a side note, it's usually the QB that makes the coach, but Harbaugh flipped the script on that one.)
Hell, Manningham, Carlos Rodgers, and Donte Whitner are all retreads. I have to shake my head at people that all of sudden claim the 9ers are so deep when Harbaugh essentially took the exact same roster and turned them into winners. Coaching and QB, 1a and 1b, in whatever order you want to put them in. So was it the players that were producing 5 win seasons year after year that all of a sudden got better or was it the coach and the fact that he was able to get more out of Smith?
You are right about one thing. It hasn't happened yet. Our guys are nothing but potential. But that's all the 9ers were too until they got the right coach...and QB now that Kaep is in there.
If Chud is the right coach, and Weeden defies the odds, and the wins start piling up, you might hear people talking about how deep we are too.
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
well, to be fair, the 49ers had become the perrennial "dark horse" team touted by the media because they had a bunch of talent and many expected them to just turn it on but they never could. also, IMO, Singletary was a needed influence on that team because he got a bunch of their prima donna heads out of their rumps (looking squarely at Vernon Davis) and he is one of the few HCs they could have had that would make Jim Harbaugh's style seem player-friendly  as for your other points, I do agree. If Chud/Norv/Horton come in here and start winning, then we'll see alot of stories about how we had all this talent and it was misused under the former coaching staff, etc. in fact, we did see some of that already last year (after the Cowboys game, in particular, there were a bunch of stories about how we had talent but the team didn't really "know it" yet).
Last edited by no_logo_required; 05/28/13 10:47 AM.
#gmstrong
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475 Likes: 136
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475 Likes: 136 |
Pertaining to the Dark Horse sentiment from the past regarding the 49ers...just would like to add the Division in that variable. Seahawks till last year was never regarded as a threat. RAMS picking in the top 5 similar to us. Zona after Warner left dropped off a cliff. That had to influence some of that expectation for the 49ers.
Jsomething to add to your thought.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 16,741 Likes: 396
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 16,741 Likes: 396 |
That was going to be my exact response. Thanks. 
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475 Likes: 136
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475 Likes: 136 |
Just doing good in my battle against Carpal Tunnel...lol 
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
that is a good and fair point as well.
#gmstrong
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