DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Getting the WRs right!

We are in the dead zone - I did not wish to get a QB thread going as emotions are very strong in those threads. I've always thought it was interesting that the Most Invested in Position we have made just never have prospered in the NFL n of course not with our Browns.

For me the most Over Rated position due to the fact they are on the Receiving end of a lot of stats. Yds n TDs. Of course I'm talking about the WR position.

I found it odd that each building of our team would put so high regard for that position. In lieu of OL or D 7.

Savage 2005-2008...ok in his 4 year reign he utilized ONE Overall #3 pick our highest investment by far to this position and in his First Draft. BE did have a ton of talent I saw his Fire wane after his rookie injury but his career can be summed up as BIG TIME UNDER ACHIEVER.

I put Savage first cause Oddly All the rest have invested 2 Second Round picks.

Clark 1999-2000: KJ n Northcutt - both btw overall would have been First round in today's drafts (#32) ??? Small n quick. I was shocked KJ didn't catch on with another team. Northcutt had a longer career as a contributor to teams but nothing IMPACT of nature.

Butch 2001-2004: QM n Andre Davis - both early 2nd rounders (top 50 club) Leaving the smurf investment by Clark to show his interpretation of a WR bigger n faster. Shame neither could catch the ball. Evidently that wasn't important to Butch

Mangini/Kokinos 2009: After Savage left a gaping hole in 2008 as we had no 1st, 2nd nor 3rd round pick...Kokinos felt a need to revamp that all Important position (cause it sure as heck helped us investing in it in the past ) by investing 2 picks in that impact 2nd round...again TOP 50 picks.
Robinskie n MoMass. Robo is an enigma on why he has not succeeded. Definitely an Underachiever. MoMass actually showed promise but unfortunately Impact Injuries (concussions especially) has hindered his career so far.

Heckert 2010-2012 **2013 (** Supplemental draft in 2012 taking a 2nd round pick from our 2013 draft) Again that secret number of 2 second round picks. This time One of those picks - Little - was not a Top 50 pick. A first for us. The common denominator of these two investments were neither one had a SEASON in College the year before they were drafted due to a suspension of some sort. An Obvious variable to possibly have greater talent than where we drafted either. I have to say these are the Biggest Fastest n good hands WRs from all that we have invested. Is this a 4th time is the charm? Regarding double 2nd round investments...finally hitting Home Runs?

Obviously none of these drafted WRs had a Franchise QB to throw to them. Nor any Continuity of a well oiled machine to fit into an Offense. But neither has Little nor Gordon as of yet. But I see finally a big difference in these two Prospects.

I was very happy to see No investment by our New Regime to this WR position except for a very wise draft trade getting us Bess for the slot to go with the 2 big guys.

Of course our 2nd round pick was already out there for Gordon. Still this is the first time our New Regime didn't feel a need to GET a 1st or 2nd WR - just build on that n get that slot WR.

Did we finally get our HOLY GRAIL...of course in my opinion we should have made similar investments made to the REAL HOLY GRAIL...QB. I will stop there on the QB please lets discuss the WR investments. Are we finally there? Bring on the stats or logical football in a good Dead Zone discussion. Thanks in advance dawgs:

Oh my computer is coming Wednesday

I feel at this time, the only logical conclusion is the jury is still out.

We saw early promise from Gordon last year but with him being out of football for quite a while there, the season seemed to wear him down as it went on.

It seemed Little had much better hands towards the end of the season which had been a big concern for him in the past.

We can speculate or guess what we have in these two, but until we see some type of consistant results at the WR position, I believe we are very much in a wait and see mode here.

While we have seen some flashes from both of these guys that can give us hope, players progress and regress to the point we don't have anything substantial to base "what we really have here" on IMO

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Robo is an enigma on why he has not succeeded.

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Actually, I don't see any enigma at all. I see exactly what he was touted as: "the most NFL ready WR of that draft".... which he was, however, people took that statement and then automatically projected his ceiling being higher when the reality is that he was already at his ceiling. He was as refined and polished coming out of college as he was ever going to get, which being that he'd been coached by an NFL WR coach his entire life is not surprising.... but, that just isn't good enough in the NFL.


As for our two new WR's - Little & Gordon. I have to say that I am VERY excited/curious to see what they will bring to the table in this offense, and unlike Robo, I think that we've just barely scratched the surface of what they can do on the field. Add in a reliable guy underneath like Bess that HAS to be respected by defenses, TRich in the backfield and hopefully at least one TE that starts to command some respect, and I think that these two are going to go OFF in this offense.

Was there a reason you left Edwards off the list? He did have the best season by a Browns WR in probably over 2 decades.

I am cautiously optimistic about Little and Gordon right now. I think that each guy has the size, speed, desire to work, and hands (even Little, after the light came on last year) to be great receivers. They need to now work their asses off to make it happen.

As far as 2009, we took Robiske and Massaqoi. Robiske was supposed to be NFL ready. Well, maybe not. Massaquoi had a solid rookie year, but struggled with injuries.

Other receivers of note in that draft were Mike Wallace in the 3rd, Mike Thomas, (who had a decent year for the Jags in 2010) Brian Hartline, and Austin Collie in the 4th round, and Johnny Knox in a later round.

2009 actually looked liek the year to grab a 1st round WR. with guys like Jeremy Maclin, Percy Harvin, Hakeem Nicks, and Kenny Britt all going in the bottom half of the 1st round. (and Heyward-Bey and Crabtree in the top of round 1)

our best receiving year (2007) was marked by the ability to have one top-tier WR (Edwards) and 2 guys able to make all the tough catches underneath (JoeJ & Winslow).

this year, we have Gordon for the WR1 role and Little/Bess for the underneath role. It's possible, but alot of growth still needs to be made. we also need Cameron to stake his claim to the TE job and Richardson to be healthy as a runner so he can also contribute in the passing game (a strength for him).

the good news is that we "seem" to have a bit more depth this year receiving. after the 3 obvious ones (above), we still have Nelson (coming back from injury), and alot of guys with some experience in the NFL who can hopefully contribute when needed in Benjamin, Norwood, Cooper, and maybe even Gurli.

we'll see what happens.

Oh man I am so very excited about this WR crew.

With Gordon we seem in my mind to basically have Randy Moss or TO without the nut-bag headcase issues. He is the physical archetype of a great #1 WR. He has the speed, catching ability, and just raw talent that is perfect for this offense.He slowed down as the season went on last year. And followed that up by taking his conditioning incredibly seriously this offseason. He's getting ready for his go routes and posts. I love his mature decision to get fit.


Then with Little our concerns were all about immaturity and drops. Then it seemed like out of nowhere last season he decided to take his work seriously. Limited his drops dramatically, stopped being a social chucklehead, and upped his game tremendously.

The hugest change in this group this off season was the somewhat surprising and monumental shift in their mindsets. Gordon is taking his conditioning very seriously. Little stopped twittering and has improved his focus dramatically. Without this mental change I wouldn't be nearly as excited with this squad. But now I am stooooked.

Bess seems like a good replacement / analogue for the Joe Jurevicious role. He's a little bit more athletic but a bit smaller. After Gordon/Little I am less certain about the crew, but they are progressively less important as a unit. The skill level of your #4 WR is rarely that important


While I am aware Cameron isn't a WR he is essentially a hybrid like Winslow. He is my only reluctance with this squad to see if he can play ball.

Man I love this offense. If Weeden and Cameron can play ball this unit will be the best we have seen since 2007 by far.

BE was listed underSavage.

Nelson is the wildcard in my mind.. If he's healthy,,, with Bess, Gordon and Little, we could have a pretty darn good receiving corp.

Receivers for me have always been hard to accurately judge. Given that their numbers are tied to other components ie. the QB. In addition, to a lesser degree the OL, RB's, and the offensive scheme.

I had a real problem when Jerry Rice was named the greatest player in NFL history. Not that Rice wasn't great but that any receiver could be given that award.

There is plenty to like about Little and Gordon. However, at this point nothing is proven. Love Little's aggressive nature and willingness to block downfield. Also, he has shown consistent improvement. Especially in his ability to catch the ball.

Gordon has all the potential in the world. But potential is not production. He has flashed ability and had a very good rookie year. He now has to follow that up with consistent growth in all facets of his game.

Bess is a veteran guy. Most of us have wanted that presence for a long time. Now we can judge the impact.

As suggested I will stay away from the quarterback position. We all know that the production of the receivers go hand in glove with the quarterback.

Good analysis Tab!

Until Cleveland obtains a legitimate QB can there be a real discussion between good/bad/ok receivers?

Lot of good arguments for and against. "QB needs better receivers to be good." "A good QB makes better receivers." You kind a wonder the state of Browns receivers if Tom Brady was the QB these past 10 years. Flip-it could Tom Brady be as successful with Browns receivers? Could Colt McCoy be a successful starting QB if he had Fitzgerald as a receiver?

I think we finally have the WRs to move forwards, Gordon showed great hands and ability as a rookie, Little improved so much the second half of the season and really ended strong. Bess is a chain mover and is going to help this offense convert 3rd downs, which relate to wins.

Early in the year last year I was about dne with Little, then bang something changed and he looked to be a legit WRs on this team.

Norv is going to utilize these WRs better than Shurmur did and I think Norv will make all the difference.

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More Wr's should have been drafted by the Browns, in the past and in the present.

I see it as the Browns have invested More in the O-line, the D-line the linebackers and the DB's while the WR's have been neglected, as far as bringing talent in. I find it hard to envision that the WR's were or are the most heavily inested in position.

More Wr's should have been drafted by the Browns, in the past and in the present.

No combination of great WR investment over the last 10 years would have done much to make our QB play look any better. There is a reason Marvin Harrison was a 750-800 yard per year WR his first few years then miraculously jumped up to 1500-1600 after that and it's because of Peyton Manning, not because Harrison suddenly discovered how to be great.

Harrison might be the best route runner of his generation. No one was ever quicker in and out of breaks. That's why the battery of Manning and Harrison was one of the best in history.

Those pesky facts can sure ruin a good rant.

I look at that WRs the Browns drafted and I see a common trait.
90% of them failed to dominate and play at a high consistent level in college.
I'm not talking about being just a mere productive WR.
I'm talking the types that on most weekends that simply made plays vs NFL calibur
college CBs.
Syndric Steptoe,Paul Hubbard....are you kidding me?
Andre Davis was a track star who happened to play football.
Brian Robiskie's lack of fire and lack of game day speed caught up with him at the NFL level. The most NFL ready means you've reached your ceiling already.
Plus I'm sure his dad was pimping his son's mythological talents to any scout that would listen.
Massaqiou was never good. I never ever saw him go up and fight for a ball.
Never saw him just blow past a CB and leave him looking stupid.
This is the best WR core talent wise the Browns have had since 1999.
Unreal a front office actually went out and brought WRs in that have had proven success previously. No Stuckey's,no Mike Furrrey's.
They actually brought WRs in who belong on the field.

I think it would be interesting to see how people think we line up talent wise with our best receiving unit since '99. Obviously it's 2007. I would like to do a side by side simple analysis of the counterparts of the two years. I'll give points based on their overall talent(not statistics) to see how they stack up.See if everyone agrees. I will also give a potential for 2013 just for fun.

*Braylon vs Gordon*

Braylon, despite having major drops, had a knack for making his QB look good. He could make wild catches and win jump battles. Gordon has more natural hands and is more of a runner than a jumper compared to Braylon. If Braylon wasn't a headcase I think he could have thrived with most any QB while Gordon may need a better thrower as he doesn't have quite the catch radius of Braylon. If someone can get the ball to Gordon he is mostly a superior prospect but he hasn't shown he can go get the ball yet.. That said Gordon still has more upside but this is about 2007 vs 2013 not Gordons potential vs Braylons shortcomings.

-Verdict: 2007 +1.
-Potential: If Gordon progresses optimally there is no reason he cannot mirror the same skill level of Andre Johnson. He possesses every trait. As the QB goes Gordon goes. I think he'll still put up good numbers regardless but with even average QB play instead of worse in the league he could put up gaudy numbers. I think 1400 and 10 TDs is possible.


*Joe J vs Bess*

This is the simplest one yet. They are essentially the same guy. Different skillsets but the same utilization. I think Bess is more durable and slightly better but he is also new to us so there is that factor as well. If he had been here in 2012 I may consider giving him a +1.

-Verdict: Wash
-Potential: Bess has never had a QB much better if any than Weeden, weapons like ours around him, or a coaching staff like ours. You guys will like him. He is the kind of WR that can help win games by keeping drives alive. With sustained drives comes increased % of scoring drives. It's that simple. He is no less of a player than Welker or Cruz. He just doesn't have Manning or Brady. Give him a QB and he will make your offense sustain drives.


*Winslow & Vickers vs Little & Cameron*

In 2007 Winslow acted as a 2nd WR and TE. If I compared Cameron to Winslow obviously Winslow would win but Little would have no comparison. In 07 we used Vickers heavily but so far Marecic has looked aweful. With a deeper although young WR core I expect us to use more singleback 3 WR sets than in 2007. That said it's hard to argue against the dominance in this comparison. Winslow and Vickers beat out Little and Cameron until further proof is brought. I love Little and think he can put up similar performance to Winslow with a good QB season but Cam is a complete unknown and Vickers was a fun FB to watch.

-Verdict: 2007 +2
-Potential: Little has the potential to be a force if he keeps progressing. Physically he is very similar to Boldin but he has more YAC skill being an ex RB. Might have a little more speed as well. If he hits his ceiling we have a heck of a football player here. With his speech to the team in week 5 and his performance that followed theres no reason to believe he won't get better. He's a freak that got a little humble pie when Gordon took his job. Cameron I have no idea. I really just have no clue. I don't expect anything really.

*Lewis vs Richardson(for giggles)*

Lewis was still a great back in 07. Powerful and reliable bellcow. Nothing extraordinary but gave you what you needed and wore down the D. However he was very one dimensional. Lewis was a runner and only a runner. He did not possess the speed,blocking or receiving skill of TRich. So far TRich has proven injury prone but Lewis missed a game as well and was aging after being relied on heavily in Baltimore. Although some will argue this was the sole reason TRich struggled I think he dances too much. It's easily teachable but until he proves otherwise this is not something I can use for this example. So Lewis is one dimension but a better runner. TRich is extremely versatile but must stay healthy and must quit dancing when a hole doesn't present itself.

-Verdict: Wash
-Potential: Trich possesses rare ability in one on one matchups. He also has a top OL. If he can stay healthy and learn how to go North and South instead of running like Barry Sanders all wide legged there's no reason he can top 2000 total yards.


In a perfect world we have the next Andre Johnson, Anquan Boldin, Wes Welker and Emmit Smith. I would never expect that but it's tough to argue, if these high risk high reward athlete picks we made all pay off, that we won't be stacked. So far all of them except Cameron have showed major positives. Not minor but major. All of these guys, even Cameron, are as athletic as the top of their position. The sky is the limit so it will be interesting to see how high the young guns make a nest.

Over rated because of the high light reel on mega Football media outlets week after week. Over glorifying the position of WR. I've always said like all football positions it is a NEED by all teams. But most don't covet a WR to fill the need but a High Light reel.

Don't know what your post had remotely to do with what I had stated...if it wasn't for it being in print I would have put you on "WIFE MODE" wha, wa wah wa wha wa...

Yep...he lost me too tab.

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just don't get where you say teams do not covet WRs?

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Sorry my bad for the poor communication - I know I said this:
" But most don't covet a WR to fill the need but a High Light reel."

Most I meant fans coveting WRs. Also the Media.

As for teams...I have always been consistent on my football logic.

1. WRs are most definitely a need. But to be a championship team it is best to have 5 solid WRs on your squad that can run discipline routes, have great hands n will be willing to block for each other n the run. I don't see the ELITE WRs carrying a team to Championships.

2. Elite WR with a high pick I consider a "LUXURY" pick. Meaning if you got all the pieces there or at least most n there is an opportunity to get a Stud WR Prospect I'm all For IT

Actually your Atlanta example is perfect for what I'm saying. We were no where close to a luxury pick status...Atlanta most definitely was. I thought it was a good move for us n a good move for them...Win Win.

But I've always said in this ERA we were in. Andre Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald n Calvin Johnson are the elite of the elite. Total Championships between them - 0 -

For an expansion type team like us I was always Dumb Founded our concern to invest HIGH in WRs while totally ignoring the OL.

99-06 Faine right after our previous highest investment Fowler the year before both playing CENTER. Prior to that one position invested in our highest investment was I believe a 6th round OG. If we invested the opposite. 9 Impact picks over the years for the OL our Offense would have been much more ready to produce n develop other Impact players taken. And the best part of OL...you hit with one...they play well for YEARS 10+ as a norm.

I just think we have finally gotten this right. Hope Benjamin progresses n I'm wrong in my evaluation of him being a bit afraid of contact. That would make us 4 solid with my philosophy of needing 5. Norwood can make that 5 complete??? Nelson??? I don't see Cooper making it.
JMHO

j/c

Many from the Browns Board who now post here complained bitterly Browns past on a stud receiver.

Here is a list of must have stud receivers Cleveland should have drafted these past years:
2013: Austin - St. Louis; Patterson - Tennessee
2012: Blackmon - Jacksonville; Floyd - Arizona; Wright - Tennessee
2011: Green - Cincinnati; Jones - Atlanta
2010: Bryant - Dallas
2009: Crabtree - San Francisco
2008: None
2007: Johnson - Detroit
2006: None
2005: Edwards - Cleveland; Mike Williams - Detroit
2004: Fitzgerald - Arizona; Roy Williams - Detroit
2003: Rogers - Detroit

Out all those receivers drafted 49ers and Cardinals were the only team to make the Super Bowl but neither won. Detroit should be a powerhouse team for all their #1 receivers. With the exception of Cincinnati, Atlanta, and maybe St. Louis, look at how many teams continue drafting in the top 10.

Tab makes a great point it is a luxury pick. Of those teams listed above, Cincinnati, Atlanta, and St. Louis all took their stud receiver AFTER they got their franchise QB, and all three of these teams stabilized core areas of their team. St. Louis looks very similar to Cincinnati two years ago. You can make an argument for Tennessee too.

One last point! How many of those so call stud receivers listed above turned into duds?

Cinci certainly did not draft AJ Green after Andy Dalton.

Also, a good argument could be made that neither StL or Cinci have a franchise QB.

Ok, if you just mean that the team is going to support that QB until he proves without question he's not the right QB, then I agree with you.

I do not believe that Bradford, Dalton, or Locker prove themselves to be worth that trust though (which is what I was inferring).

personally I think you are half right half wrong.

Bradford is a Franchise QB just not on a team ready to win. Just like Archie Manning was a franchise QB so was Dan Pastorini - their teams were terrible.

Dalton I think is a Serviceable QB not a franchise QB. Meaning he's ok - good but might have a Career year but not consistently great. Sort of reminds me of Hasselback of Seattle.

But the point is you don't NEED that Elite WR for success. In saying this I am in no way saying ignore the position pretty much like I think the Rams have. I'm saying do your research draft wisely get "SOLID" WRs could be late first - mid 2nd ...or later round picks. Just saying it doesn't have to be TOP 50 especially for a team losing (note late first is a team winning but picking up not the Calvin guy.

Bugs just note several of those Elite type WRs we had no shot at drafting as they went before our pick. Specifically Calvin n Fitz.

JMHO

Franchise qb is a term that can be used loosely at times and mean what one wants it to mean.
From my understanding a franchise qb can be defined as such even though they haven't proved thefeselves because if a team feels like the qb on the roster is the guy they feel they can build there team around that IMO is a franchise qb.
It took several years for Eli to come into his own and he was always viewed as such.
Again JMO