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The real mistake Junior made was hiring Holmgren.
Who do you blame for Mangini's failures as the Jets HC?
Mangini's Head coaching record
Regular season 33–47–0 
Postseason 0–1
Career record 33–48–0
2 times failed HC. 
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The real mistake Junior made was hiring Holmgren.
Who do you blame for Mangini's failures as the Jets HC?
Mangini's Head coaching record
Regular season 33–47–0
Postseason 0–1
Career record 33–48–0
2 times failed HC.
You cannot be serious. You have to know those stats are extremely misleading. If you don't I feel sorry for you.
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So you would take the final 2009 roster over the final 2012 roster?
This is almost getting silly! The 2012 roster took three years to build. 2009 roster was done in ONE. Yet the number of wins in the win column were no more than 2009. You kind a wonder what might have happen if Mangini had three years!! Well let me rephrase I wonder what might have happen. You already knew at the end of 2009 Mangini was a dud!
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You may want to do a little research on what kind of offense we were implementing.
Whatever! I mean seriously!! If Holmgren never arrived, why would Daboll/Mangini want to implement parts of the WCO? As I stated 2010 was a waste...a joke. Holmgren used it to buy a little time, if you can't see it then so be it.
My whole point is how can you compare Mangini's one year to Holmgren/Heckert's three and give a grade 2012 was better than 2009? Better yet compare Shurmur's 2011 to Mangini's 2009.
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The man set us back 5 years and the praise he gets blows my mind. Not once did i fault him for dumping Edwards and K2 but my goodness. He took 3 second rounders and a top 5 pick and ended up with a damn center to show for it.
Ahh, I don't think I praised him did I?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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You can say that stats paint an incomplete picture, and in most cases you would be correct. However, since the whole point of football is to score more points than your opponent, then points scored, and points allowed are the most important of all stats.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Just clicking.
Holy three years ago, Batman!
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
#gmstrong
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So you would take the final 2009 roster over the final 2012 roster?
This is almost getting silly! The 2012 roster took three years to build. 2009 roster was done in ONE.
You were the one that said:
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Funny it took the Big Show three years to build what Mangini did in one.
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You may want to do a little research on what kind of offense we were implementing.
Whatever! I mean seriously!! If Holmgren never arrived, why would Daboll/Mangini want to implement parts of the WCO? As I stated 2010 was a waste...a joke. Holmgren used it to buy a little time, if you can't see it then so be it.
My whole point is how can you compare Mangini's one year to Holmgren/Heckert's three and give a grade 2012 was better than 2009? Better yet compare Shurmur's 2011 to Mangini's 2009.
Look at you squirm out of your statements. 
I wasn't the one comparing the two. You were.
You said that it took Holmgren three years to build what Mangini build in one, which is completely absurd.
Now you're trying to backtrack.
You were also the one who tried to be condescending about offensive schemes, when you were incorrect, not only about the hybrid scheme but about our QB's being a mismatch for the system.
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You can say that stats paint an incomplete picture, and in most cases you would be correct. However, since the whole point of football is to score more points than your opponent, then points scored, and points allowed are the most important of all stats.
That's not true at all. I mean, I see the wordplay you're using to deflect, but points allowed are not the most important of all stats.
Wins are.
Look at our 2011 season - our defense gave up 19.2 PPG. Great, right? Probably a stout defense on a wild card playoff squad?
Not really. Opposing offenses didn't have to do very much to combat our anemic O. So if they got up by 10 or more, they coasted.
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How do you get wins?
By scoring more points than your opponent.
How do you do that?
By scoring points on offense, on defense, and on special teams ........ and by stopping the opponent from scoring.
Scoring, and Scoring Defense are the 2 most vital aspects of the game as far as winning is concerned. You can play semantics if you like, but if you score, and stop the opponent from scoring, you win games. Half of that vital equation is stopping the opposition from scoring.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Stopping scoring is the most important element.
I base this on the fact it is possible for teams to win games and never score a point with the O on the field.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Half of that vital equation is stopping the opposition from scoring.
Exactly my point ... half the equation.
Which is why points allowed and yards allowed isn't really an indicator of anything.
For example:
Team A - 21.4 points allowed per game, 411.1 yards allowed per game
Team B - 25 points allowed per game, 376.4 yards allowed per game
Team C - 19.2 points allowed per game, 332.4 yards allowed per game
Those numbers all come from 2011.
A is the Patriots, B is the Giants, C is the Browns.
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You can play semantics if you like
That actually made me chuckle a little.
You're flailing around using whatever twisted logic you can to polish the turd that was the Mangini era, and I'm playing semantics?
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So .... just for the record ..... you don't feel that stopping the opposition from scoring is important? There are 2 vital areas, scoring, and stopping the opposition from scoring. If you see other more important areas, please let me know what they are.  A defense will be put under additional stress when the team has an explosive offense, because the opposition will be forced to pull out all the stops. In that there is some validity. However, teams win with offense, and defense. The Niners are a defensive team, with a solid offense, The allow 17.1 PG, behind only Seattle at 15.3, Seattle and San Francisco are the 9th and 11th ranked offensive scoring teams in the NFL. Both sides of the equation are necessary, but you over-simplify it when you say that "wins" are the only important stat. That's like saying that living long is the key to a long life. There are factors that go into it that lead one to a longer life.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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It's pointless YTown. PDR doesn't like Mangini. There is nothing anyone is going to say to change his mind. Last years five wins was much better than the 5 wins in 2009! As someone above pointed out it's been three years what is the point. Last year was good times!!
I'm just glad Mangini is back in the NFL. As someone else made a statement regarding Cleveland being set back. At least this time Mangini is helping a super bowl contender instead of setting Cleveland back five years.
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really don't care about mangini. but glad he got rid of all the staph infection that was happening.
being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
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So .... just for the record ..... you don't feel that stopping the opposition from scoring is important?
I never said that.
Is that really where you're going now? Your argument has devolved into this?
Sigh. Let's backtrack.
You said:
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Yeah, the defense is where we brought in most of the "old guys who couldn't play", and yet Mangini had the defense ranked 13th in points and 22nd in yards in 2010.
None of that indicates a good defense.
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It's pointless YTown. PDR doesn't like Mangini. There is nothing anyone is going to say to change his mind.
It has nothing to do with me liking or not liking Mangini.
He was a failure as a head coach.
You've tried to spin illogical argument after illogical argument, and now your down to 'he just doesn't like Mangini'.
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I'm just glad Mangini is back in the NFL
I agree.
I hope the guy can work his way back up to a coordinator position.
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Harbaugh and the 9ers deserve Mangini's help. I cant wait until he backstabs Harbaugh just like he did with Belly and Koko.
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Good for him ... as long as he stays far away from Cleveland .... 
John 3:16 Jesus said "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
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I don't really see how those three didn't fit the system.
I mean, if you want to argue that those QB's weren't very good, and that hindered Mangini, I can accept that argument.
My mistake. You are right. I was talking about guys who were not very good and I did not clarify that.
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We're going to have to disagree.
I don't understand the love for the guy. I really don't. I think people liked the idea of him.
There's this odd double standard with the guy ... when it comes to Heckert, you constantly point out the record during his tenure, and cite the fact that he wasn't immediately hired for a GM job as proof that he wasn't that great. (And I agree... he did some nice things, but Heckert is overrated). But Mangini gets the benefit of every doubt.
That's fine. We don't have to agree. It's just nice that you can make an opposing post w/out all the childish insults that are so rampant around here.
I understand why you think I have a double standard. And perhaps to some extent I do. My logic is this.............Mangini was killed by the fans for going 5 and 11 in a year when he tore the team apart to change the culture. Heckert goes 5 and 11 in year 3 of his rebuild and he is called a genius. Seems strange to me.
If you look very closely, you can see that I really don't hate Heckert. I said on this thread that it would have been nice if him and Mangini could have worked together. That is a compliment. I just don't think Mangini was nearly as bad as many claimed he was and I don't think Heckert is nearly as good as most claim he is. When a poster has an opposing opinion from the masses, he draws the ire of many. You are a smart guy. See it for what it is.
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I could understand 'promising'. I'd disagree, but I could understand the logic. But 'excellent'?
Do you think he'll ever get another HC gig? I don't think so. And for good reason.
I will concede the excellent comment.
No, I do not think he will get another HC job. But, I don't think it's because he can't coach. I think it's because he sucked w/the media and alienated many fans. I would say it's more for PR reasons than coaching ability.
Again, thanks for debating me in a civil manner.
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Harbaugh and the 9ers deserve Mangini's help. I cant wait until he backstabs Harbaugh just like he did with Belly and Koko.
Quit whining.
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This is almost getting silly! The 2012 roster took three years to build. 2009 roster was done in ONE. Yet the number of wins in the win column were no more than 2009. You kind a wonder what might have happen if Mangini had three years!! Well let me rephrase I wonder what might have happen. You already knew at the end of 2009 Mangini was a dud!
Great point. Yet, to hear the majority of posters on the boards.............H and H are geniuses and Mangini was a moron.
I will never forget the boycot the Browns threads after one game and then on a weekly basis.
Let's face it............most of these guys hated Mangini because he didn't like BQ. And whoever replaced Mangini had their full and complete backing.
Oh.................and I said "most," not "all."
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Let's face it............most of these guys hated Mangini because he didn't like BQ.
Well aware that you said 'most', not 'all, but... if I may throw in my two cents...
I don't think anyone on these boards disliked BQ more than me. And I very much disliked Mangini ('hate' really doesn't creep into my sports vocabulary much, and I'm trying to shed it from other areas of life).
I didn't quite understand the hire so quickly. Seemed to me that Junior got goosebumps talking to him and made up his mind right there.
I thought Mangini desperately wanted to be Bill Belichick, and put the cart before the horse in terms of building the team. He was more interested than setting the tone for a 'culture' than preparing for the season.
You ever notice that his best game plans never rolled around until he felt the heat on his seat? Maybe that's a stretch, and I'm reading too much into it, but... the guy sure seemed very interested in murals and fines and bus trips, which is fine ... until the team hits the field for opening day and look like they've just met each other.
And the 2009 draft. Enough said. Another example of Mangini trying to say 'watch me outsmart you all and win with cerebral, lunchpail players.
I thought he deserved the second year that he got. And while I don't think that H&H didn't do him any favors, he didn't help himself, either.
It was reported by several sources that Heckert sat down with Mangini and showed him tape of Jayme Mitchell, and Mangini gave his approval on pulling the trigger. And then refused to play him. I'm not saying Heckert was right or Mangini was wrong ... but don't look a gift horse in the mouth.
And that second year had a big ol' bow on it.
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And whoever replaced Mangini had their full and complete backing.
That's usually how it works.
I don't really view things in that light. I was glad to have Mangini gone after year two, but that didn't make me feel very good about Shurmur. I thought that was another terrible hire.
Chud is the first hire I've been warm to since RAC.
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No, I do not think he will get another HC job. But, I don't think it's because he can't coach. I think it's because he sucked w/the media and alienated many fans. I would say it's more for PR reasons than coaching ability.
Reminds me of a certain Browns coach in the early 90's ... 
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Mangini was killed by the fans for going 5 and 11 in a year when he tore the team apart to change the culture. Heckert goes 5 and 11 in year 3 of his rebuild and he is called a genius. Seems strange to me.
Heckert actually built something.
I agree with you that he is very much overrated, but at the end of the day, when he was gone, he left some pieces behind. Mangini left smoldering embers.
You can certainly argue that Heckert had more time than Mangini. But there's a reason that Mangini wasn't given more time to build his vision. Namely, that he took the assets he was given and completely wasted them in an astonishingly short amount of time.
You can say what you will about having a bare cupboard and having to do a tear down ... but when you turn the #5 pick into a center, and a bunch of has-been/never-were scrubs, you're not doing yourself any favors.
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Again, thanks for debating me in a civil manner.
I reflect what I see.
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I thought Mangini desperately wanted to be Bill Belichick, and put the cart before the horse in terms of building the team. He was more interested than setting the tone for a 'culture' than preparing for the season.
Why is having Belichick or a Belichick type coach bad? At least Mangini was a part of Super Bowl winning team.
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Heckert actually built something.
I actually like Heckert, but once again you lost me here. What did Heckert build? A five win season? The very coach you claim a dud did that his first year, but I've stated that many times already. If Heckert is so good, why did Banner/Haslam toss him aside for Lombardi? If memory serves me well, wasn't Lombardi part of the evil Belichick staff. Why isn't Heckert a GM today? Obviously people the NFL don't see it your way.
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J/C
I think Mangini got a pretty raw deal. People seem to forget the whole Kokinis fiasco, which forced Mangini to play GM AND Coach. He got fired because of his GM moves, primarily. Put another way, the guy got fired because he took over for Kokinis, who was doing who knows what in his short time here.
Conspiracy theorists will say that taking over the GM responsibilities was Mangini's plan all along, but I think that's just silly.
On the other hand, look at the Jets. Mangini was a key part of building the team that was so dominant a couple years ago. They featured a great power run game and a straight-up nasty defense. Mangini and co. were responsible for most of the key players there. Favre's arm falls off and they miss the playoffs so Mangini gets canned. Look at the Jets since he's left. They trade up for a terrible quarterback in Rexy's first draft, then the next year they take Kyle Wilson and were joking about how they pulled a fast one over the Browns because we took Haden. There team went from disciplined and dominant to tabloid sideshow (on and off the field) in only a couple seasons.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
-PrplPplEater
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But if you need to compare Mangini and Heckert, you could compare each ones FIRST DRAFT with the Browns!
Alex Mack, Mohammed Massaquoi, Kaluka Maiava
vs
Joe Haden, TJ Ward, Shawn Lauvao
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So using those players:
Alex Mack and Joe Haden: Even. Mack is a Pro Bowler, and Haden is a very good player at a premium position.
Maiava and Lauvao: Slight edge to Lauvao. Both have started, and both have had their ups and downs. I think that Lauvao is a better player than Maiava, but Maiava contributes on special teams as well as on defense.
Ward and Massaquoi: Strong edge to Ward. Both guys have battled injuries throughout their careers. Ward has had more nagging type injuries that don't always keep him out, but that limit him on the field. Massaquoi has had injuries take him off the field entirely for stretches.He's also played with some pretty bad QBs in his career. I think that he could be a good receiver if he could stay healthy, and play with a good QB. That's unlikely to happen in Jacksonville though. Ward is the better player overall.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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So using those players:
Alex Mack and Joe Haden: Even. Mack is a Pro Bowler, and Haden is a very good player at a premium position.
I know the idea is to compare Mangini's draft to Heckert's first, but if one wanted to look at a proper comparison, it would be when both made their move down. Both had very high picks (5 and 6) that became multiple trade situations.
In Mangini's case, the #5 pick became Alex Mack, David Veikune, Kenyon Coleman, Brett Ratliff, Abe Elam, Coye Francis, and James Davis.
In Heckert's case, the #6 became Phil Taylor, Greg Little, Owen Marecic and Brandon Weeden.
Neither one of those look all that appealing on paper, but you've got to give Heckert the edge on that one.
To stick with the parameters and look at Haden vs. Mack ... got to be Haden. I love having Mack on the team, but turning the #5 pick into a good center is a tough pill to swallow. I guess it's better than a bust, but the cost there is just too steep.
To go way back in the thread to the original point a poster made ... man, that draft set us back big time.
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j/c
I actually appreciate some of the things that Mangini and Heckert did.
Mangini was the first step towards changing the culture. It had become toxic w/ the Winslow and Braylon sideshows and it seemed like we were stuck that once things went bad, the team would just pack it in. Mangini was brought in to change that and he did. The issue was that he did so in a manner that was excruciating because he didn't replace any of the offensive playmakers he shipped off and the draft he had ended up being terrible. As a result, the team he ended up building was much too old for a bad team (if you are bad AND old, then there is also no hope you are going to get better).
Heckert was brought in to take the roster and make it young and promising. He eschewed some playmaking talent in order to continue building the foundation (much like Mangini). He acquired more picks in most cases (except for his strange desire to spend multiple picks on RBs) and did a much better job obtaining draft assets than his predecessors (Mangini and Savage). His issue came down to not hitting the absolute HR on a pick. He did well with his first 2 round picks and had extras too. But, he never delivered the star player that would make everyone else better and become a national star (at least not yet --- Haden, Ward, Taylor, or Richardson could still get there).
Heckert's main asset though may have been that he wasn't afraid of drafting players with red flags and a seemingly way of knowing they wouldn't continue having those issues in the NFL (Sheard, Taylor, Gordon, etc. ---- alot of guys with checkered pasts that haven't had those issues up a level).
In neither case, have we had the wins to back it up. We started the youngest(most inexperienced) offense that I can ever remember in the NFL in a long-time and struggled out of the gate. It got better, but it also didn't just take off down the stretch (actually got worse down the tough slate to end the year).
What we do have is a young roster, full of hard-working players (reportedly at least), who have promise and an ability to continue getting better and the Browns back to a place of respectability. For that we can thank both Mangini and Heckert IMO.
#gmstrong
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Vers..... I'm not so sure about the comparison you make between Heckert and Mangini.
I tended to like both, but the jury is still out on Heckert to me. I felt Mangini did pretty good given the talent he had. But Mangini was the coach who worked with the talent he had, or didn't have as the case may be.
Heckert on the other hand gathered the talent but had no hand in the coaching of it. I've heard people say it was Holmgren who made the calls on drafting the QB's but I have nothing that I've seen that really substantiates that so I really have no idea.
So would you agree that how this talent looks and develops under new coaching will go a long way in determining how well Heckert acquired good talent?
To me that is the key here. I don't believe that either Holmgren or Shurmer did much of anything to help our cause. In fact, I'm not even sure if our former coaching staff did much in the way of developing talent at all. I'm of the opinion that it was Shurmer and his coaching staff that failed miserably.
I don't believe Weeden was a good fit for the system we ran. Who that falls on is anyone's guess. But if this current coaching staff does very well with the bulk of talent that was drafted by Heckert, I don't really see how anyone can claim Heckert is so overrated.
I'm not saying that will happen. But if it does, I'd say that Heckert acquired the talent but the coaching staff didn't know how to develop and use that talent.
So to me, the jury is still out on Heckert and the next two years will tell me a lot.
JMHO
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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But if you need to compare Mangini and Heckert, you could compare each ones FIRST DRAFT with the Browns!
Alex Mack, Mohammed Massaquoi, Kaluka Maiava
vs
Joe Haden, TJ Ward, Shawn Lauvao
Actually, instead of Maiava, you should use the third of our 3 2nd round draft picks...David Veikune. Maiava was taken 2 rounds after him.
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Belichick was big on doing this when the Giants won the superbowl with him as DC.
He was the D coach but he helped the O a lot that year.
I've wondered how common this kind of thing is... seems to me to be fairly logical that you would ask your own DC, "If you were playing our offense, what would you do to stop it? and also, take a look at their defense and tell us where the holes are."
yebat' Putin
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Joined: Nov 2006
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Ward has had more nagging type injuries that don't always keep him out, but that limit him on the field.
Ward missed the second half of the 2011 season and has finished the last two seasons on IR.
Massaquoi missed 10 games in his four years here, same as Ward has missed. He didn't start all of the games that he played in, and he was largely unremarkable in his time with the Browns, but he played in far more games than he didn't.
I'm calling those two a push, maybe a slight edge to Ward. We'll see how he performs in a contract year.
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Joined: Nov 2006
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But if you need to compare Mangini and Heckert, you could compare each ones FIRST DRAFT with the Browns!
Alex Mack, Mohammed Massaquoi, Kaluka Maiava
vs
Joe Haden, TJ Ward, Shawn Lauvao
Actually, instead of Maiava, you should use the third of our 3 2nd round draft picks...David Veikune. Maiava was taken 2 rounds after him.
I went with what I considered to be the three most productive players that each of those drafts produced for us (I didn't include Colt because of Holmgren's intervention, and the poster I was responding to was comparing Mangini's and Heckert's selections).
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